281: ENCORE: Talk to Your Boys: Raising Confident, Caring Young Men

0:00Dr. Lisa Damour: Friends, have you ever wished that you could get instantaneous answers to your toughest parenting questions? Well, now you can. I am thrilled to introduce you to Rosalie, my free AI-powered content guide that is designed to help parents just like you. So here's how it works. You go to my website, drlisademour.com, and ask Rosalie your question. Rosalie will give you a short answer based on my work and also guide you to the best resources from everything I've ever written and to the Ask Lisa podcast episodes that directly tackle the topic you're searching for. So whether you're wondering how to handle sibling rivalry or navigating a teen's screen time or just trying to figure out how to best support a child who's having a hard time with stress, Rosalie is available 24-7 for free to help you.

0:52Dr. Lisa Damour: Head to DrLisaDemore.com and try Rosalie today.

1:02Tell me a parenting issue everyone struggles with with tweens and teens, but no one talks about. Reena, I think a lot of people feel like they just don't know how to connect to their kid anymore. I'm Reena Nainan, and welcome to Ask Lisa, the psychology of raising tweens and teens. And I'm Dr. Lisa DeMoor.

1:20Dr. Lisa Damour: We bring you science-backed strategies for managing anxiety, discipline, intense emotions, and more. We decode tough parenting issues with tips you can use right now. So subscribe to Ask Lisa, the psychology of raising tweens and teens, and join our YouTube community today. Just Google Ask Lisa Podcast. We're here to help you untangle family life. Encore episode 281, talk to your boys, raising confident, caring young men.

1:56Dr. Lisa Damour: friends do you ever feel like your son is shutting down or pulling away or turning to the internet for answers when you really wish that he'd be coming to you this episode is all about that authors joanna schroeder and christopher pepper have spent years looking into what boys actually need from the adults in their lives and what they found is really compelling boys want connection. They want guidance. What they need is for us to show up in the ways that work really well for them. In this episode, we give you the tools you need to start real conversations with your son about emotions, identity, and online influences.

2:34Dr. Lisa Damour: With all of this in your toolkit, you can confidently guide your son toward becoming the young man that he is meant to be. I'm really excited about today because having a ninth grade boy, this next book, the authors that we're going to talk to today. I just thought this book was incredible and every parent of boys should read this one. I agree. Reena, I had the opportunity to blurb this book when it came to me. I was so excited. There is so much concern about boys right now. It is entirely justified. I think about the episode we did about the TV show Adolescence and how much traction it got. And I have to say, I think this book is a perfect response to all of the concerns that are being shared right now about how boys are doing.

3:16Dr. Lisa Damour: It is absolutely a beautiful must-read book. You're absolutely right. We did that episode. We got so much incredible feedback from parents. As a psychologist, what was it about this book that really stood out to you that made you think, wow, this is a really good one? The thing that is extraordinary about this book is that Christopher and Joanna are boots on the ground. They are talking to boys. They are interacting with boys. They get boys. They understand boys and they like boys. And at the same time, they are bringing this incredible knowledge base about all of the really tricky things that boys are struggling with, all the things they need help with.

3:52Dr. Lisa Damour: They marry this, all of this into an incredible guide that teaches adults how to talk to boys effectively about all of these really complex and delicate topics. I mean, it's just an unbelievable contribution. And I guess when boys are silent, you just think to be silent. And that was the big takeaway for me. I can't wait. Let's get right into it. Today, we're diving into the book that so many parents of boys have been waiting for, Lisa. It's called Talk to Your Boys by Joanna Schroeder and Christopher Pepper. It's not just a parenting manual. It's really a guide to the conversations that we need to have with our sons about emotions, identity, respect, friendship, sex, and navigating this current world that they're living in.

4:30Lisa, what I love about the authors and what they say is having these talks, like these conversations are so important. So let's welcome to the podcast, Joanna Schroeder and Christopher Pepper, authors of the book Talk to Your Boys, 16 Conversations to Help Tweens and Teens Grow into Confident, Caring Young Men. Joanna is a writer and editor and media critic known for her bold perspectives on parenting issues. Christopher is an award-winning health teacher. He coordinates the young men's health groups in San Francisco Public Middle and High School. The group brings boys together to talk about their lives, masculinity, emotions, and relationships.

5:04Thank you. It's so great to be here. Thank you for having us. We're so excited to talk to you both. Welcome. We're thrilled to have you here.

5:12Dr. Lisa Damour: So let's just dive right in. We are just so excited about this book and about what you have done. And so, Joanna, I want to start with you. You are the mother of three, two boys and a girl. And in the book, mental health is a foundational theme. It's a really, really key component of the book. What do you see as the biggest emotional blind spots that parents have, especially when talking to boys ages sort of 12 to 15? Well, it's absolutely wild. But what we've noticed is that a lot of parents kind of stop parenting their boys around age 13. And at the very least, they stop talking to them. So maybe they're still driving them to practice.

5:49Maybe they're still supervising a party, but they're not engaging emotionally like they may have when their boys were eight or nine. And it's a real tragedy because our boys need connection, especially in a society that tells them to numb it down and quiet down and only show anger and lust and, you know, destructive type of emotions. You know, Chris, you are also the father of two boys and also you've been a foster parent as well. I love the perspective you bring. I'm just curious about, you know, in the book, you say that we should normalize boys actually showing feelings. I'm curious about the research, about what you found, about how boys learn to suppress their emotions, and also from a psychological perspective, what happens when parents actually avoid these conversations because it's so easy to do?

6:37Sure. For the research side, I really like the research that Judy Chu and Naomi Wei have done on boys and emotions. They both have great books about how this happens in the lives of boys. Essentially, boys learn that to be accepted in social environments, particularly in school, that they sort of need to cut off some of their selves, cut off their emotional selves, and not show that to the world. And it's almost like putting on armor to go through the day. And I totally understand that impulse. It's protective and keeps kids who are worried about bullying. That's one of the things that they'll do.

7:22But when you put on armor, it gets in the way of connecting with other people. And that's one of my big worries about boys. And we see this playing out in the data around loneliness and boys saying like they don't really have any friends to connect with or they don't feel like they have close friends they can count on. So that's a big concern for me. So when boys sort of put on this armor that you talk about and kind of shut down, How does it affect them, their mental health and their development when they do that and the parents just don't have these conversations with them? Well, boys are really struggling right now.

7:55And we see this in data playing out, but we also hear this in the stories that boys told us. For our book, we had a panel of over 80 boys who answered questions about each of the chapters in our book. But they had some themes that came up over and over again with these boys. and they said that they felt like they wanted their the adults in their lives to know know them in a closer way they wanted the adults in their lives to be closer with them they wanted the adults in their lives to know who they really were and to recognize how they were changing and growing up as they went through their adolescent years um and there i think there's a real space for adults to keep those avenues of conversation going i know it can be challenging i You know, sometimes boys push you away when you try to connect with them.

8:46I guess our message to parents is to keep at it, to persist in trying to keep those connections going. Because the other thing we heard from boys is that they really want guidance around what it means to be a man. They want guidance around how to be successful in the world. And when we don't step in as caring adults in their lives, they are mostly going, they're turning to their friends some, but they're also going online a lot. and getting advice from TikTok, from YouTube, from websites that are trying to sell them a $19.99 a month plan for self-improvement, and just getting a lot of advice that's not so great and isn't going to help them get to where we want them to be in the world.

9:33Dr. Lisa Damour: Yeah. No, I have to say, you mentioned the panel of boys that you talked to. One of my favorite parts of this book that I just adore everything about was the We Asked Boys call-out boxes, where you have the boys' words about what they want adults to know, what's the hardest part about being a boy, what gets in the way of talking about feelings. It is so compelling. It is so sweet. But it also, I think, really tells the story of what you're trying to say, which is these boys are dying to share this stuff, and it's all right there. It's just a matter of getting those conversations going. So Joanna, to that point, I know that for a lot of boys, that kind of man-up culture is still really strong, right?

10:16Dr. Lisa Damour: That you're not really allowed to express vulnerable emotions. How can parents work against this? How can parents sort of combat kind of these toxic messages that boys get without getting into sort of a battle with their boys, without having to feel like they're at odds with them? You know, we're going to be at odds with our adolescent kids. That is a natural part of their development, as you know, of course, Lisa, they will naturally push away from you. And that's, that's healthy. The question is how do we allow them to explore who they want to be and the kind of men they're going to become safely and in a way that reflects your family's values.

10:54And that's what we try to try to do. First, we want parents to dig into what really are your values? Like, what do you want your child's future to look like? And then you need to be able to kind of disabuse yourself of the fact that you get to decide the specifics about your child's future life. You know, you want him to be a great athlete. You want him to go to Stanford. You want, those things don't really matter. What kind of person do you want him to be in the world? And establish that before you do anything else. And then I think, especially if you are a man in the home or close to the boy, model how you handle your own emotions and show emotions.

11:33So if you find out that your grandmother just passed away, it's okay to cry over that. It's okay to share those memories with your kids and say, man, she really did all these amazing things for me or whatever it is that's touching to you. Or maybe you had a bad relationship with her and you can share how she hurt your feelings in the past and the complex experience you're having with her passing. When too often men think they need to cry in private or just to their partners. And when they're doing that in front of their boys, the boys are able to see, oh, here's this guy I respect. And he's handling his emotions.

12:06And similarly, oh, yeah, go ahead. No, no. I was going to say to Lisa, this was when Lisa wrote her book, The Emotional Lives of Teenagers. I was like, oh, my gosh, this is earth shattering. She says that dads need to show their emotions. Like you need to look vulnerable. And nobody had ever said I'd never thought of that before until I read her book. And that's what I'm hearing from you guys in the research and everything that you're saying. I'm raising a teenage son in ninth grade, and I don't know sometimes how to move past the one-word answers, like how sometimes where they don't want to talk.

12:41So are there ways to open up conversations? Do you guys have a starter line or something that isn't hokey that might get them to open up? Yeah. You know, we find that movement is key. you know, the research of Dr. Stan Tacken, we cite throughout the book, and it talks about how there's a way in which their emotional guard is let down when they're moving. Now, this isn't for every kid. Some kid may open up in the car. Some kid may open up when you're having dinner together. But if you're having trouble getting past those one word answers, doing a project together, you know, moving a stack of wood or, you know, if you're whatever your kid's interest is, taking a walk, hiking, building a tent, all of those things, when you both are moving and engaged and looking somewhere other than right in each other's eyes directly and intensely, that might be a good opportunity for him to open up.

13:32Especially if you ask interesting questions that don't prompt just a yes or no answer. If you're asking how's school, you're going to hear good. So ask a more interesting question. Yeah, fine. Or it sucks. You'll probably hear that one too sometimes.

13:49Dr. Lisa Damour: What happened? Nothing. Nothing. I like asking who got in trouble today. That's my favorite question. My kids love to talk about who got in trouble. It helps me keep a tab on the neighborhood too. But just that idea of like, did anyone get in trouble today? Did anyone, you know, make you laugh today? Those kinds of questions. And then if, oh, Roland made me laugh. Okay. What's Roland's deal? Tell me about Roland. Yeah. No, I love it. I love a getting specific. For all of the parents out there with teenagers, we know you're already trying to keep a million different things under control. Well, the Cash App is here to help make sure your teen's money and their spending isn't adding up to craziness.

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16:19Dr. Lisa Damour: And because of that, with all of their support around setup and checkout, you have more time to focus on the thing you really want to do, which is growing your business, right? Not just getting people across the finish line of buying your product, but actually growing your business. And here again is where Shopify has incredible tools to help make that happen. Start your free trial at Shopify.com slash AskLisa. That's Shopify.com slash AskLisa. All right, Chris, over to you. You have 16 essential conversations that you lay out in this book, and consent is one of them. But that's a big conversation.

17:00Dr. Lisa Damour: So what are the psychological foundations that parents need to have laid in advance before having a constructive talk about consent? interpersonal boundaries. I think for me, I just really appreciate how much our society has worked on this issue of consent and thought about it and wrestled with it. I started out doing work related to this when I was in college myself as an undergraduate working in rape prevention. And I was working in an office, the rape education office at my college, and would go out and talk to boys and men often because I was a guy. They would send me to fraternity houses and places like that.

17:40And the script that we had at the time was pretty negative. It was a sort of a list of things not to do and ways you could get in trouble and very kind of legalistic deficient of what does it mean to rape someone. And I just think the language of consent really opens up a lane for engagement that is much more positive and creative and really focuses on like, how do we create an experience with another person that is pleasurable for everyone involved that and both people will walk away feeling good about, hey, this was something that I was really happy that I did and was really enjoyable. And kind of setting that as a goal is so much more beautiful than than just saying, I didn't get arrested.

18:32Dr. Lisa Damour: Or I got permission, right? I mean, permission is not nearly the bar we want to be setting. Yeah. So really, I think in the book, we have a quote that's from Shafia Zaloum, where she talks about consent kind of being the floor. Like that's the minimum that you want. But really, you're trying to create experiences with other people that are pleasurable and enjoyable. And the nice thing about this is you don't have to involve sex in this at all. You can teach about consent from an early age, and it's really about bodily autonomy, not touching other people when they don't want to be touched, asking for permission.

19:06And people do this with young kids now that talking like, OK, we're going to go visit your relatives that you haven't seen in a while and trying to teach those relatives and maybe coach them in advance. It's like, my kids may want to give you a hug. They might not. I'd appreciate it if you ask them first and not just run up and grab them. And I think we're learning those lessons as a society. Obviously, not everyone is caught up on that. But we are doing a lot of learning. And I think it's really positive. And it's kind of fun to be creating a new way to interact with people.

19:42Dr. Lisa Damour: I love that frame. I love that way of thinking about it. You know, Lisa touched on earlier, Chris, that, you know, one of the great things about this book is when you open up, there's quotes from boys. You interviewed 85 different boys from the ages of 10 to 22. And one of the things they said was a lot of what they're absorbing comes from and learning comes from TikTok and YouTube and even porn in some cases. How do I as a parent counter the social media and what they're absorbing when I want to send a different message? One of my big concerns is about the content that people are seeing. That is, I'm concerned about the content that boys are seeing online.

20:24However, I'm also concerned about what's happening when they are spending all their time looking at that content. Because what we're seeing is that time online is really replacing in-person time. So we're seeing a decline in the amount of time that teens say they're hanging out with other people, that they're spending time with other people in person. We're seeing a big decline in teen dating. So I think you do need to talk about what are you seeing online. And Joanna's really an expert on that and how content online, sometimes through jokes and memes, can lead to extremist content. So I'm glad that that is really incorporated into our book.

21:04and it is something that we need to talk about. But I think one of the best things that you can do as an adult in a kid's life is to get them offline, to get them to spend time with other people where devices are not the main focus of that time. So spending time outside, planning trips together, and actually as an adult, like making sure that you don't put your own devices away and have some focused time with them. In-person connections with caring people are really important and really a good way to address any kind of concerns that we have about what they're seeing online because they'll see, oh, these people who care about me are not reflecting those crazy things I saw online.

21:51And that all comes down to media literacy. I find that one of the most important skills we can teach our kids, and I wish it was curricula in, I wish it was part of the curriculum for eighth graders at this point is media literacy. You can start these conversations when they're like five years old and they become more and more important as they get older. And it protects them from all sorts of things, from scams online to, you know, like you hear about sextortion of these teenagers, especially teenage athletes. Apparently they're being targeted right now to, you know, like we were saying, there's all these ideological predators online that are looking for lonely teenagers to recruit to this extremist hate-based behavior.

22:33And when we teach them a few basics, like who made this? Why did they make it? Who are they hoping sees this? And does it reflect your values? Is it true? And you can just go through and ask those questions, even when you're just watching a commercial on TV during the football game and just say like, who do you think they're targeting with this hamburger ad with a bikini model in it? Like, why do you think they have that model? And, um, do you think this reflects, you know, real life, just simple questions like that, get them thinking. And then that extends to adult content. And we mentioned Shafia Zaloum.

23:15She has a great analogy that I love. And I want to shout from the rooftops, which is you don't learn to drive from watching Fast and Furious movies, and you don't learn to have sex and enjoy pleasure with another consenting partner from watching porn.

23:30Dr. Lisa Damour: That is phenomenal. That is phenomenal. Joanna, just to take that idea a little further, because Christopher talked about, and you mentioned also, these bad actors online who are waiting for lonely teenage boys to help them feel good if those boys feel small. So say that you can tell that your son is, you know, one way or another coming to this idea that like his job is to be tough, right? And championing these kind of tough ideas that are trafficked in those spaces. What does one do to foster compassion in that boy? How do you try to push him in a different direction from what's being offered to him online?

24:04Well, like I think an interesting conversation to have with a kid who's doing that is figure out what he gets out of it. And what I have learned from interviewing boys, from raising boys, from my boys' friends is that they want to be helpful and they want to make a change in society. They want to feel a certain sense that they're a hero. So it starts when they're little and they like Superman. And as they get older, what appeals to them is the sense of being able to make a change. So if you're starting to hear stuff that doesn't reflect your values, you can, instead of reacting how I first reacted when I first heard some of these things from my children, instead of being like, where did you get that?

24:47What is going on? Don't you know who does that? I reacted from a trauma place. I'm a woman writing online. And when I heard my kids, one of my kids, maybe he said alpha or some phrase that wasn't quite as common then, but was, I'm used to it from hateful trolls online. I reacted from like, not my kid, but to be able to be like, what's the context that's being used right now? And like, what do you think of that? What do you think it means? And just kind of asking about it in a way that puts your fear and anger aside. And that has been my personal work. And it is hard to do, especially when they're saying something that feels offensive, just inquiring about it.

25:30And then finding ways to engage them with who might be being hurt by it and replacing that behavior with another way to be helpful. They want to be helpful. So like, okay, you're worried about, you know, if kids are getting a good education and maybe the kid is reflecting some kind of hateful ideology and that's where it comes up. Like, what can we do to help kids in your community? Like, do you want to go read a book during library hour? Do you want to try and give them opportunities? And just keep reminding them that our choices and our words do affect people and we can choose if that's for the better or for the worse.

26:08Dr. Lisa Damour: What I love about that, Joanna, is what you're saying is they're looking for purpose. They're looking for something that gives them a sense of value and meaning. And so you're like, great, give them one, right? If they are looking for purpose by being, you know, some tough guy, well, or you can also get purpose by helping people out at the library, right? That to go for the motivation and try to not be completely blown out of the water by, you know, the offensive stuff that may be on the surface of it. Yeah, exactly. And ultimately, getting to the root of what he's getting from what he's consuming that makes him feel tough.

26:40And another thing that I think is so important is to model how we handle our anger, because anger is one of the few acceptable emotions that men are able to show in society. So it's great if a man or a dad can do this in front of your boys, but you can do it too. And I keep bringing up this idea of like road rage when we're driving the car with a kid and we start to get angry, talk through how you're handling your anger. I'm so mad that guy cut me off. Oh my gosh. I am so tempted right now. Flip that guy, the bird. I'm going to take a breath. Okay. I feel better. I'm glad I didn't do that because I don't know what his reaction is.

27:19And ultimately, I feel better now, whatever. Just process out how you're handling that anger to show them, like, I'm just going to take a moment. And when they make you angry, you know what? I'm feeling really angry right now. I'm tempted to raise my voice and I don't want to do that. I want to be able to talk to you calmly. So I'm just going to take a beat. Let's talk in five minutes so that they're seeing us process that. And what if you're a parent who like yesterday did not do that during a roadway? And set a very bad example because she was very angry. Well, I live in Los Angeles. So there's so many opportunities to get angry at people on the road.

27:56And I will often just say, okay, let myself get way too reactive to that guy. Like what that guy did was not okay. And I felt scared because I felt like we were at risk because of what they did. But that was not my best way of handling it. And, you know, that's making a repair and showing them that there's a way back from that, too. We don't have to lean all the way into our our wild emotions. Yeah. Yeah. Thinking about this kind of combining these two threads of conversation, we were talking about how you feel emotionally when you see something and you see your kid doing something online or see them looking at content that you find offensive.

28:37Or I think a lot of parents right now are pretty alarmed. they've maybe read about concerns about social media or they watched adolescence or other movies like that and they're coming in kind of a little freaked out about what's going on with boys right now and I think the tendency when you're feeling alarmed is to come in come in hot and be what are you looking at online oh my gosh turn that off right now I'm taking your computer and you're never going to see it again kind of coming in with a lot of emotion one of the phrases we tried to introduce in the book was to get curious, not furious. And it's really going back to this idea of where Joanna was talking right before this about if you're the parent, you're saying, I'm going to take a minute to just let my emotions cool down, and I'm going to be strategic.

29:24And I'm going to talk to my kid and say, what are you getting out of this material that you're looking at? Why is that joke funny? Are your friends all looking at this? Can you tell me about how you found this, like just being curious about what they're getting out of it, why they're engaging with it. And my sense is that is going to be a lot more productive than just coming in and being angry and putting down a lot of restrictions. And it will also help you connect with where your kid is and give you a sense of if there is something to be really concerned about, you'll have more information if you come in that way than if you just shut everything down without a conversation.

30:04And I think we're wired to almost believe that they're up to something bad or something is wrong. A couple of days ago, I couldn't find my son anywhere. And I realized he's in some parking lot somewhere. I can see on the phone. And I sent my husband over to go find him. And my husband's like, yep, we got to figure out a punishment for this kid. Very, very bad. He was teaching elementary kids in the neighborhood who didn't know how to hit kickball fast enough. They were down at the school playing kickball and like learning because one of them said they didn't know how to kickball. So I think sometimes, and for some of us who might be in the moment of perimenopause and menopause, we can go from zero to a thousand very quickly.

30:44I'm not making excuses, but I'm just being honest about this.

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32:50That's 15 % off oneskin.co with the code ASKLISA. And after you purchase, tell them the ASKLISA podcast sent you. But Christopher, one of the things you also write about in this is what shocked me. I found this to be a shocker in the book was that sometimes boys lose their closest friendships in adolescence. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? Thank you for asking. So I think we need to be attentive to boys' friendships. One of the things that I really took away from Lisa's work actually is how important it is for kids to have at least one friend, to have someone that they can count on in their lives.

33:30And I really get concerned when boys say they don't have any close friends that they can depend on. But this sort of rigid definition of masculinity sometimes interferes with friendships in a way that causes boys to separate. So I think we need to, you know, one of the, I think one of the things that we need to do with boys is really make it safe for them to have a range of emotions and to have a range of experiences. And there are a lot of things that are kind of traditionally coded as girl things. So you might think about like dancing or wearing pink clothes or singing in a choir, things like that.

34:13And sometimes a boy will say, oh, I like to do those things. And other boys will be like, sorry, you can't be my friend. People might think that I'm gay if I'm friends with someone who likes those things. And this sort of rigid rules around masculinity and what you're allowed to like and not like are. I'm amazed at how persistent they are and how strong they are. And they're particularly strong in the minds of boys when they are just forming their identities and trying to figure out who they are in the world. So I think we have to be careful.

34:44Dr. Lisa Damour: Would you say like middle school, they hit a really intense peak, that idea? Yeah, middle school is exactly the time where this really comes in. Because students often move from one school to another. So they're sort of having to define themselves at this new school. People are trying to figure out who you are, and there's a real tendency to act tough and act in a way that matches with what they think society wants from them as a boy. So it's at a time where they're not really sure of themselves, and they put on a lot of performance about how they think they're supposed to act. And this other element that comes in often now right at middle school is that kids get a lot more access to electronics.

35:29They start playing video games a lot more heavily. They usually, it's a common time for kids to get phones. And so a lot of their behaviors are both informed by what they're seeing online and mediated by conversations that they're having online. So there's this whole other conversation that adults often don't know much about that's going on in the lives of young people that is also influencing how they act and behave and treat one another. I've noticed that I can spot, especially after doing all of this work and research, I can spot a sixth grade boy from five miles away just based on how much they whoop and holler and yell and how much space they take up in public.

36:12And I think about it is a, they're the littlest, the littlest fellas in school. And oftentimes the girls are developing much faster. so the girls might be taller. The girls tend to be a little more mature. And it brings out a lot of cockiness that that's the part you can spot. They're just, their feathers are always puffed and they're walking around the mall and making a mess. And I think when we have, at first, when it was my boys, I was like, what is this strange? And I was like, you know, this is a time when that comes from insecurity. It comes from fear.

36:48Dr. Lisa Damour: They feel small. They feel small, but they also, and they don't want to be vulnerable. We have to remember that generations of men were literally physically traumatized for seeming gay or seeming weak. And so this fear of being seen as gay or fear of being seen as soft, it's not something that's just going to go away because feminism waved its magic wand. And thank God for feminism. but we can't just snap our fingers and wish away generations of trauma, right? They're getting this message. It is a very serious message. Seeming gay to others was literally risking your life a few generations ago, even when Christopher and I, and probably you two were young.

37:34We all remember Matthew Shepard. So just saying to our kids, like, who cares if someone thinks you're gay. There's something deeper there. Yeah. Well, I'm just curious, you know, as we wrap up now, if we could go to both of you to just give us your sense when you conducted the research for this book, was there something that stood out to you in the process that surprised you? Well, I keep coming back to the fact that boys are really wanting adults to be connected with them and to be guides. They want to share with adults in their lives. And one of the things, one of the places where I've actually learned a lot in my career is that I've had the fortunate experience of being able to run boys groups in schools, coordinate this program where we have social emotional groups for boys in schools.

38:24And I've got to tell you how amazing it is to see a group of teenage boys come together and say, we're here for you. And we want to talk about your feelings and what your life is like right now. And we want to help you. And as soon as you build some trust with them, they want to talk, they want to give each other hugs, they want to be there for each other. It is very sweet. And it is totally unlike most people's stereotypes of what teenage boys want or need in their lives. And I think there's a big space that we are sort of missing as a society of providing those places for conversation and connection with tween and teen boys.

39:06I think there's a lot more that we could do. And I would encourage anyone who wants to be a mentor or big brother or the uncle who takes your nephew out more often than maybe you expected to, or actually go into a school and say, can we run a group at this school? You don't have to be a gender studies PhD or something like that. You have to be somebody who shows up and shows up regularly that they can count on that has a good ear for listening and can help provide a safe space for boys because they really need it. You know, one thing that struck me is how much our kids believe us when we tell them things.

39:48And it doesn't seem like that when you're the parent, because if you say, you know, I like this brand of eggs, they're going to say those, those are terrible. I only like this. Yeah, those are dumb. That's so dumb. Like, why are you being so dumb? And we don't realize how much they believe us. And I remember a story told by one of the boys we were interviewing who said to me, you know, I had my heart broken by this girl. And I know I don't really know what love is, but I really am really, really sad. And I was like, who told you you don't know what love is? Well, my parents said, you don't really know what love is until you're older.

40:24And I said, well, listen, your parents are probably great, but I disagree. I think you do know what love is. I think you did love her. And I think you probably do love her. And I think your heartbreak is very, very real. And it's going to take some time to get over it because he felt like he was broken. He believed his parents when they said that wasn't even real love.

40:48Dr. Lisa Damour: That just breaks my heart and gives me goosebumps at the same time, what you said to that boy. well thank you both what an honor to get to be with you this book is a must read as I said I feel like it actually should be waiting for families at the hospital and if they go home with a boy I think it should also go home with that family it's out now it is absolutely fantastic and congratulations and thank you both just thank you for what you have done here thank you so much I really appreciate this and thank you for your beautiful blurb on our cover we are so grateful you are welcome You are welcome.

41:23Dr. Lisa Damour: That's the best part of my job is getting to support incredible work like yours. The book is called Talk to Your Boys, 16 Conversations to Help Tweens and Teens Grow into Confident, Caring Young Men with Joanna Schroeder and Christopher Pepper. Thank you both. Wow. You know, Lisa, when we have on authors, you're always so cutting edge on who we have on that just really has impressive research in their books. And raising a son, I didn't even realize the things that I carry that I assume he doesn't want to talk to me, he doesn't want to do this. And to hear them just now say that, no, no, no, they're actually listening to what you say, and they do want to talk and engage.

42:05Dr. Lisa Damour: It's true. And actually what Joanna said, we do have research that absolutely confirms that, that kids actually pick up and actually heed a lot of what we say, even if they roll their eyes when we say it, but we know that what we say does shape their behavior. And so we want to be really mindful to use that both for good and then to avoid using it in ways that might hurt their feelings. Well, this was all news to me. So what do you have for us, Lisa, for parenting to go? Well, I was really taken with Joanna's description of her road rage moment, where she was subtitling what her emotional experience was, and that's how I would describe it.

42:37Dr. Lisa Damour: And she did it a few different times, where she was talking through what was happening internally in front of her son. And what it made me think about is our research on emotional intelligence, which is very much what we're talking about here and trying to cultivate emotional intelligence in boys. And there's a beautiful line from that research that says that emotional intelligence is seeing oneself from the outside and seeing other people from the inside. And I think it's such a great line. And I think that that's exactly what was happening when Joanna was describing herself, driving down the road, walking her kid through what was happening internally.

43:11Dr. Lisa Damour: And so I think any time we can take those moments to subtitle what may not be obvious or to help sort of bring to the surface what's happening inside of us, that's an emotional intelligence building moment. Good with all kids. And for today's conversation, maybe especially good with boys. So being able to sort of subtitle and tell them what you're really feeling can really make a difference in a moment, especially a moment of rage. I think it can. I think it can. I think it's a great way to bring the feeling down to size, use it as a way to connect, and do some really important teaching. Great advice, Lisa.

43:46Thank you. And next week, we're going to talk about how do you help your kids build a healthy relationship with food? I'll see you next week. I'll see you next week. Thanks for joining us. Be sure to subscribe to the Ask Lisa podcast so you get the episodes just as soon as they drop. And send us your questions to asklisa at drlisademore.com. And now a word from our lawyers. The advice provided on this podcast does not constitute or serve as a substitute for professional psychological treatment, therapy, or other types of professional advice or intervention. If you have concerns about your child's wellbeing, consult a physician or mental health professional.

44:26If you're looking for additional resources, check out Lisa's website at drlisademore.com.