284: ENCORE: Screens, Toxic Stress & Staying Connected with Dr. Nadine Burke Harris

0:00Dr. Lisa Damour: Friends, have you ever wished that you could get instantaneous answers to your toughest parenting questions? Well, now you can. I am thrilled to introduce you to Rosalie, my free AI-powered content guide that is designed to help parents just like you. So here's how it works. You go to my website, drlisademour.com, and ask Rosalie your question. Rosalie will give you a short answer based on my work and also guide you to the best resources from everything I've ever written and to the Ask Lisa podcast episodes that directly tackle the topic you're searching for. So whether you're wondering how to handle sibling rivalry or navigating a teen's screen time or just trying to figure out how to best support a child who's having a hard time with stress, Rosalie is available 24-7 for free to help you.

0:52Dr. Lisa Damour: Head to DrLisaDemore.com and try Rosalie today.

1:02Dr. Lisa Damour: Tell me a parenting issue everyone struggles with with tweens and teens, but no one talks about. Reena, I think a lot of people feel like they just don't know how to connect to their kid anymore. I'm Reena Nainan, and welcome to Ask Lisa, the psychology of raising tweens and teens. And I'm Dr. Lisa DeMoor. We bring you science-backed strategies for managing anxiety, discipline, intense emotions, and more. We decode tough parenting issues with tips you can use right now. So subscribe to Ask Lisa, the psychology of raising tweens and teens, and join our YouTube community today. Just Google Ask Lisa Podcast.

1:39Dr. Lisa Damour: We're here to help you untangle family life. Encore episode 284, Screens, Toxic Stress, and Staying Connected with Dr. Nadine Burke-Harris.

1:55Dr. Lisa Damour: friends are you worried about what your tween or teen is seeing online but not quite sure how to talk about it with them without pushing them away well this is a conversation that's going to help dr nadine burk harris california's first surgeon general joined me to explore how social media disturbing content and ai contribute to real psychological harm and toxic stress in kids The good news, the most powerful protection is your good, strong working relationship with your kid. We'll show you how to make the most of it. Hello. Hi. So happy to be with all of you. I have the tremendous honor of recording a live episode of my Ask Lisa podcast with Dr.

2:44Dr. Lisa Damour: Nadine Burke Harris, goddess of the first degree, who I love thinking and working with. So Dr. Nadine Burke Harris is an award-winning physician, researcher, and public health leader who has spent her career on the front lines of some of our world's most pressing public health challenges. As California's inaugural Surgeon General, Dr. Burke Harris successfully launched a first-in-the-nation statewide effort that has trained more than 45 ,000 primary care providers on how to screen for adverse childhood experiences and respond with trauma-informed care. I know, I know. Today she serves as the chief intact officer for ACE Resource Network, a national organization advancing a bold vision to make the prevention, early detection, and evidence-based treatment of toxic stress a standard part of health care practice in the United States.

3:40Dr. Lisa Damour: Beyond that, she is also an avid gardener and finds joy in engaging her four boys in garden adventures. They grow fruits and vegetables. You put together amazing floral arrangements. And you treat this as your ultimate stress buster. Yes, that is absolutely right. Thank you so much. And I feel like we are the mutual admiration society. I'm all for it. Yes, I'm so happy to be here. Well, now I've known Nadine since 2019 when I had the honor of introducing her at the City Club of Cleveland. I live in Cleveland. And then we just had a really good and productive time in Madrid together in January on behalf of UNICEF and the World Health Organization working on child protections worldwide.

4:23Dr. Lisa Damour: So, good time. Okay. So, we put out a call for questions to my audience. And I have several. But I actually want to start with one that is really, really central to the work you do, which is about kids and toxic stress and becoming overwhelmed. And all of us know that a lot of what can be out online can be either highly violent or sexual or disturbing or otherwise just flooding for a kid. Can you talk us through, sort of with that online context, what it means for a developing nervous system to have that kind of exposure? Well, what we know about the science of toxic stress is that when we have repeated activation of the biological stress response in absence of adequate buffering caregiving systems, that that can lead to a dysregulation of the body's stress response.

5:27which when we think about it, like stress hormones, almost every cell in our bodies have a receptor for stress hormones. So these hormones act on almost every cell in our bodies. And when that happens repeatedly, what we can see is changes in the way our stress response functions. And that leads to changes in the way kids' brains develop over time. but not just our brains, our immune systems, hormonal systems, and even the way our DNA is read and transcribed. And so that is what doctors now refer to as the toxic stress response. And where that relates specifically with and interacts with online content is that because of the way so many kids and young people consume media or online content, where they may have something that is activating or stressful or flooding, and it's delivered in this very personal way.

6:39So it's not something that's seen on the playground, right? It's not something that oftentimes is witnessed. it's this inner it's this direct interaction between the youth and the media that they're consuming that the people the the adults in their orbit may or may not be aware of which then

7:01Dr. Lisa Damour: really undermines the potential of a buffering response exactly okay exactly and particularly if kids are you know not wanting to talk about what they saw or not you know trying to to to not share, then that creates particular risk. So one of the big themes for this summit has been about the importance of regulation, and this is reason number 400 for the importance of regulation. And I also think, thinking about this as a clinician, as a mother, one thing I think we should recommend is that if kids are online, that we should say, you may see things that keep you up at night that are very jarring.

7:47Dr. Lisa Damour: I am here to talk and think with you about those. You don't have to carry it alone. Does that feel like the right way forward? A hundred percent. I think that, I mean, that is the conversation that I'm having with my boys. And as we, um, talk about content and, uh, you know, one of the things that's really interesting and I'll just I'm gonna actually offer an example that is actually a real life example I think that one of the very tricky things about online content is that it may be presented in a way that our kids don't know what to do with right so for example one of my boys was he told he's like, oh, hey, mom, I want to tell you this joke.

8:37And it was a joke that he had heard online. And it was a really racist joke, incredibly racist. And I think part of the reason why he told it to me is because he was on this platform where it wasn't presented as a racial joke. It was presented as funny. And when the guys who told the joke, they were, oh, ha, ha, ha, ha. And they laughed. And so my son internalized like, oh, this must be funny. But I think he also felt this like, huh, this makes me feel weird. And I will tell you, when he told me the joke, I immediately burst into tears. Because it was, it was, it was pretty horrible. Yeah.

9:29Dr. Lisa Damour: First of all, I am sorry. Second of all, speaking as a psychologist, what I have known about when kids do that is that they see something online. And as you described the context, they're like, this feels wrong, but the context isn't signaling it's wrong. Right. And so then they're like, is it my misunderstanding or is there something wrong? And so then they bring it to an adult and they repeat what happened. As it happened, I'm going to do the thing but not give you the context. because they want your gut checked, but they don't want to have led the witness. I think that's often what's happening.

10:03Dr. Lisa Damour: So they're like, I'm going to do it the way it came to me and see if you have the reaction that I had deep inside. You do, okay, I wasn't in the wrong. And it's so critical, right? All of that is horrible up to the moment of him taking it to you and you being able to say, oh my gosh, that was so far out of line. Yeah. I'll tell you, I burst into tears for a couple of different reasons. One, because the joke was horribly racist. But the second was because as a mom, I was just like, I can provide, like, as a pediatrician, right? as a pediatrician. I can, you know, talk to my kids and say they're going to see uncomfortable things online and open the door and I can make sure that we're really connected.

11:03And I know the data that shows that like that's the biggest protective factor for kids online is a connected presence in real life. So I know that. As a mom, I was like, how do I keep these people out of my house. Yes.

11:24Dr. Lisa Damour: And actually to keep going on this. So we know that not all kids are having the same experience online, that kids of color are having a different experience than kids who are white and that it often involves discrimination, sometimes directed at them. It often also involves witnessing incredibly disturbing things. What are the kinds of conversations you've recommended as a pediatrician or had in your own home about this? And follow up, what would you have all of us do?

11:59So the conversations that I'm having with my own kids are these conversations about being an upstander, right? about recognizing that we're going to, that these things are out there. And then also just recognizing, you know, how everything, my kids run around and be like, like and subscribe, right? So it's like, do not, you know. So really kind of voting with your attention and those types of things. but also taking a little bit of time and this is one of the things that I recommend to families to be able to break that down a little bit and understand that it is a commoditization of our attention and to be able to look at what are the dynamics at play there why are we seeing, why is this content being promoted what and and and so how do we essentially train the algorithm of like do not send me this nonsense right and this is not this is not valuable content maybe you have a great idea for a business

13:19Dr. Lisa Damour: and you love to get into it but you're not even quite sure where to start like you've got your idea but what about all the other things that a business needs to actually run all right this is when you're going to want to check out Shopify. Shopify has everything you need to start selling, and it's all included from day one. If you're not worried about staying afloat, if you know that you're actually getting paid by customers who come to check out what you've got, then you can spend more time thinking about growing your business, right? And Shopify has the tools to help you do that as well. Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide, and they go from household names to small businesses that are just getting started so you can have the comfort that they really know how to take care of people who are looking to make things happen.

14:05Dr. Lisa Damour: Start your free trial at shopify.com slash asklisa. Start your free trial at shopify.com slash asklisa. That's shopify.com slash asklisa. Okay, so here's me in the summer. I like to do a little work in the yard. I like to go for a walk with a friend, I run to the grocery store, and then I want to go somewhere cute for dinner. Now to do all of these things, I usually need sunglasses because it can be very bright and beautifully sunny where I live in the summer. Gooder is the answer to all of my problems. These sunglasses are so cool and they are beautifully designed. So first off, they don't slip around.

14:47Dr. Lisa Damour: They are constructed with a sort of special frame that keeps them from slipping around, especially when you get kind of sweaty. They are cute. They come in great colors, wild themes, they're stylish, they're fun, and they are exactly the kind of sunglasses that you can both wear to garden and around to the grocery store and to wear out to a nice dinner. Ready to upgrade your eyewear to something functional, fashionable, fun, and affordable? Head to gooder.com slash Ask Lisa to claim$10 off your first order. That's g-o-o-d-r.com slash ask Lisa. Those kinds of really clear conversations at home, I think we can't be having them enough.

15:31One of the ways I've heard it talked about and have talked about it with my own

15:35Dr. Lisa Damour: adolescents is these are advertising companies. They make their money by collecting more and better data on you. And the way they do that is by creating content that keeps you there with no regard for the impact of that content on your health and well-being. And we just have to say those things over and over because they are hard to understand and the stuff does seem fun until it's not. Right. Right. And it's a little bit of, I think particularly, there's a little bit of that playground effect where particularly the consumption of digital media is challenging because when our kids are consuming it, they're not in a circle on the playground to look around and be like, did you think it's funny?

16:26Did you think it's funny? It's just them interacting with the folks who are producing the content, right? And so that's where that gut check comes in, and that's why my son brought that particular question to me. And this is like really preparing our youth that this is what you may see, this is what it's designed to do, and here is what you can do to vote with your attention.

17:00Dr. Lisa Damour: I love that. Okay, so we got questions about just being overwhelmed by all of this, which we can feel for sure as parents and caregivers. We also got a question I think a lot of us have about the tension between wanting our kids to be shielded from all of this, not wanting to give them access for all of the reasons we're talking about, and wanting them to know what their friends are doing and be included in stuff. And one of the questions we got is, I don't want to give my kid a smartphone, but all of their peers are on WhatsApp. So how do you think about that tension between we'd really rather not and also the way I think about it is social media is bad for kids social isolation is bad for kids how do we think about that so as a pediatrician and public health person I am the person who one of our boys is 13 and actually our two older boys got phones when they were 13.

18:01And I feel, and they're nine years older. And I feel like in between the landscape has changed a little bit.

18:09Dr. Lisa Damour: My daughters are seven years apart. And I agree. I have a 22 year old and a 15 year old. And we're dealing with two different internet. Yeah, exactly. And so we did a contract with our now 13 year old. And we did a contract with our big boys when they got their phones. And it was like, you know, a contract for digital citizenship and all that stuff. And we can look at your phone and this is not a private space and all that kind of stuff. With our now 13-year-old, we did the contract a year before he got the phone. I have never heard that. That is super smart. A year before he got the phone and we said, okay, here are the risks and the benefits of having a phone.

18:56And here are some of the things that we want to see before we recognize that we feel like you're developmentally ready. And this is going to be hard for some people to hear, but actually at his 13th birthday, he wasn't able to meet all the terms of the contract. So he got pushed back by a year. Good for you. Good for you. And so now he's getting ready for 14. And a lot of the pieces of it are these pieces of, like, coming to us when there's concerning content. When we say it's time to turn it off, actually turning it off. Not sneaking, right? If you're sneaking, that's going to push back your...

19:40And so all of these things, we had this agreement to steward healthy behavior.

19:48Dr. Lisa Damour: And did you do it around his handling of video games? Or how did you, what was the test drive? The test drive is that it was around his, so, you know, he has an iPad where he does his screen time and it was around his use of, his engagement with just screen time as it is right now. The tech he already has. Right? Versus a phone that he's going to have in his pocket all the time. Okay, this is brilliant. To unpack what's in there further, first of all, different kids need different rules. As a clinician, I have made recommendations to families with two kids in the same family. That child will be fine.

20:28Dr. Lisa Damour: That child probably can't have a phone until he's 18. Right? Like, I mean, it just, you know, depends on who you're looking at. And I love that you set the developmental markers, that you made clear what was necessary, and that you held the line, which I'm sure was such a bummer for him. It was. It was really hard for him. But I think it also, like, he got a clear message that, oh, mom and dad are serious about this. And the other thing that we did in the interim, which is something that I kind of love, I was talking with him about how a lot of the media interactions are designed to like release dopamine, right?

21:09And that, you know, keep you connected in the work, in the engagement. And I'm not making this up. And listen, I'm going to say it's my household and I'm like a scientist, a public health person. but literally my 13 year old came to me and he was just like, he also loves music and he loves specifically the guitar and drums and he was like, oh, I'm gonna go get my dopamine from the drums. And he was like, I found another dopamine release system that I love even more than screen time and I was like, yes! Go right ahead, knock yourself out kiddo.

21:47Dr. Lisa Damour: Oh, that is fantastic. um what i also really love in this is that it's not a no it's a yes when yes and i think that so often as we're trying to navigate these waters we want to hold the line play the role of the you know the adults in the room without damaging our relationship with our kid and i think it's really hard on kids when it's just a no an arbitrary and they don't know what they need to do to make it happen. So I love that you were like, it's a yes when. The other thing I have found really helpful, actually, let me back it up. The one thing I found frustrating in the discourse about technology is we've talked about things as though they are a monolith, like a phone, right?

22:30Dr. Lisa Damour: No, phones have a lot of levels of possibility. And so when my younger daughter was in the sixth grade, her sister went to college. And they have a really tight relationship and they needed their own channel. And so I gave her a phone at 13, which was younger than I, actually might even 12, right, than I usually would have. It was an old iPhone of mine with no browser. We don't talk about, browsers are where so much goes off course. You don't need to have a browser on the phone, no social media apps and no ability to add apps without permission and so it was a texting machine it was a photo taking machine it was a music machine and one thing we know I got to do a survey and got these data the number one way that kids regulate emotion is actually by listening to music and so it's such a powerful force and I think when we say no phones I'm like well for a lot of kids you're taking away actually music that means a huge amount to them but I think that that's part of navigating this tension between my kid needs to be connected, but I don't want them to have the whole wide internet in their pocket.

23:43Dr. Lisa Damour: Well, you can set phones up that way and even give them, and I think this is important. I know there's all sorts of options for phones that are dumbed down. In my experience, kids are like, no, I want to be able to have the device that my friends have, even if you strip it down to very little. Yeah, that's right. So combining that with, as you're saying, you know, one of the challenges is that the relationship with media and phones and device is also often a source of just parent-child conflict, right? Parents are setting these boundaries and the kids don't like the boundaries and they think the parents are stupid and they don't know.

24:28And so one of the things that's really, that I find to be really helpful. It's not just saying the no and also, you know, with the contract is giving a very clear, like these are the habits and behaviors that will lead to a yes or that will lead to increased privileges. But also, I really like to just ground as much as possible, facilitate a sense of care, right? So when I'm talking with our kids about it, one of the really important things for me to say is just like, hey, sweet, you have heard all the stuff that is out there about media and all this stuff. And I love you so much. And as your mom, one of the things that I really want to do is support you to be a smart and healthy consumer of media.

25:29And so what that means is that we are going to work and put these things into place and we're going to do this together and really kind of unpacking some of the why behind the what so that it's not just a no but it is even if kids don't agree, right, to be able to understand a little bit more about what our intentions are so it doesn't just feel like, oh, she's terrible.

26:02Dr. Lisa Damour: I'm going to elevate something in that, the we. So when we are so scared for our kids and when we're seeing headlines that make us so scared, I think it's very easy to feel like there's the kid and the tech and I have to stand between them, right? It's me versus the kid's desire for the tech or the kid's interest in the tech. it is so much more effective to do what you've done, which is kid you and me against the potential harms of this tech. That's the framing we want. And you can even do it in schools. I was at a school speaking and they warned me, I was about to speak to all the students and they were like, oh, just FYI, we're putting in a phone ban tomorrow.

26:43Dr. Lisa Damour: They're super grumpy about it. And I was like, okay. And I hit it directly. I said, listen, I understand there's a phone ban. and I said, I understand that's not what you want or some of you may not want it. Here's the thing. There is nothing your phenomenal teachers can put in front of you that can compete with this. You all want to learn. You all want to grow. The bad guy in this is not your interest in the tech. It's that the tech is so compelling that it stands to undermine the education you're here to get. So you and the school are working together to make sure you can get the education you came for.

27:19it's not that the tech

27:21Dr. Lisa Damour: it's not that you guys are the bad guy that's how it often gets framed with adolescents is that the tech is designed to be so compelling that it can bring all sorts of harms into your world that you don't want and we don't want for you right, right, that's exactly right and I will even like it's fabulous that we're sitting here at the Common Sense Media Summit because I will sit down and look at some of the the latest information or some of the information that common sense puts out on on you know insta or whatever and i i'll sit down and look at it with my kids and say hey what do you think about that what do you think about this um that what we're learning about how the tech companies do engagement right because from a public health standpoint we saw this in the 90s with tobacco It went from don't smoke and you're a rebel and you're a bad kid if you smoke to the truth campaign, which was like, why are tobacco companies trying to get youth hooked on cigarettes?

28:34Right. And at what cost? Right. And so it was really starting to look at, you know, not the adults who know better against the kids who are having a cigarette, but it was like, well, let's look at the way this industry is designed to make money off of getting kids hooked. And that's the conversation that I'm having with our boys.

29:02Dr. Lisa Damour: And that conversation, so David Yeager at UT Austin has done beautiful work. if you show kids how they're being manipulated, they become more resistant, right? So it's such an easy way to walk into the like you and me kiddo versus this highly manipulative industry. The other thing you said that I don't want to not underscore, kids can be grumpy about this. Yes. And it's fine for them to be grumpy. And I think it makes more sense to us as adults. We're more accepting of their grumpiness if we consider the alternative, which is you say to your son, look at all of these things and this is why I love you and we're not going to do this, no teenager worth their salt is going to say, I am so glad that you have surveyed the data and decided to restrict me.

29:43Dr. Lisa Damour: I really appreciate it and I do feel your love. So I think the way I make up goofy things all the time and I had these four R's of putting in rules for kids or making behavior change. First, what was the first one? I have to remember the first one, but one of the, it was like, expect, you know, give them a rationale, right? Here's why. Then you make a rule. Oh, approach with respect. That was the first. Like, don't come in like you and your kids and your phones, whatever. That never works. So come in and say, look, I know this is an incredible device and really alluring. Then a rationale. Here's my worry about this and here's the data.

30:22Dr. Lisa Damour: Then the rule. So we're going to hold off and then be prepared for resistance and do not take it personally. Right. So be prepared for resistance. And I also think that there's an opportunity in resistance, right? So there's an opportunity to have a conversation around, okay, I can see that you are not happy with this rule. And I'm going hear what you're saying. And also, we're going to have a conversation about how we treat each other when we don't agree with what we've decided. So you can be mad and you can express that you are mad. You are not allowed to emotionally abuse me because you don't agree with.

31:12So how do we? So there's also just a natural teachable moment about how we address conflict within our households.

31:25Dr. Lisa Damour: Anytime we do an episode about kids who learn or think differently, we get so much feedback about how helpful and needed that information is. And I know it's true. If you're raising a neurodivergent kid, you are facing very specific complexities and challenges. And what I want you to know is that there is a podcast that does a deep dive on this every week. It's a new podcast called Everyone Gets a Juice Box for parents of neurodivergent kids. And what I can tell you is that it is a space of such validation and such wisdom. it's a true community of parents who have faced the same uncertainties you may be facing and they get it every episode of everyone gets a juice box is just rich with information but also frankly just validation and support and a sense of not having to be alone in this space that can feel at times really isolating and challenging to listen search for everyone gets a juice box in your podcast app.

32:28Dr. Lisa Damour: That's Everyone Gets a Juice Box. As I start to think about the start of the school year, I can feel my jaw start to tighten. Like, I'm excited for everyone to go back, but there are so many logistics to manage. The thing that is getting me through this is our Skylight calendar. Because what it gives us is a clear visual guide of what everybody's doing, when they are doing it, and it really helps us manage the day-to-day activities with so much less confusion. Now, what the Skylight calendar is, it's an all-in-one digital smart calendar that syncs seamlessly with Google Calendar, Apple Calendar, Outlook, and more.

33:07Dr. Lisa Damour: Families are better when they're working together. Right now, Skylight is offering our listeners$30 off their 15-inch calendars by going to myskylight.com slash asklisa. Go to myskylight.com slash asklisa for$30 off your 15-inch calendar. That is M-Y-S-K-Y-L-I-G-H-T dot com slash asklisa. That is beautiful. Okay. We also got some questions about appearance, comparison, you know, that this is so much part of what happens online. Here was a question we got. My daughters are 16 and 18 and because of SNAP, they feel they need to be made up all day long. so what would you say to this family what would you say to these girls let's start there yeah I mean I think that um one of the what I would say to these girls as a starting point is how do what do they want for themselves right how do they want to move through the world in terms of we recognize that young people, they want to look good, they want to compare well with their peers, they want to appear attractive to whatever, you know, mate that they're interested in.

34:39There's a level of, but we also want to think about like a level of self-kindness in terms of how do you care for yourself in the way that you would care for a good friend, right? And is that, thinking about, is that how you would want to, like if your dear friend came to you and said, oh, I don't think I'm pretty enough or I feel like I have to wear makeup all the time, is that how you choose your friends or is that how you would want to have someone that you care about be judged, right? And really unpack that a little bit and unpack what they're worried about what they're concerned about and then how they can show up in a way that feels healthy and authentic to them.

35:29Dr. Lisa Damour: The idea of saying like, what would you, what would you say to a friend in that same situation? I think, you know, it's such a beautiful way to recognize that all teenagers have a couple sides, right? They have the side that's like, I can't take a snap because I don't look good. and that same kid has a side that is incredibly philosophical, is incredibly thoughtful, who can spool out a profound, a profound understanding and guidance to someone else. And I think that that's the challenge with adolescents in particular is they show us sometimes one side and we can forget about the other side and we can respond to the first side like, you don't need to do that, and that doesn't, you know, whatever, and that's being superficial.

36:17And what I've learned clinically is the side of the kid you talk to is the side that comes

36:22Dr. Lisa Damour: into the conversation. Right. Right. So if you start with a, why are you doing that? You're, you don't need to do that. The kid will defend it. Right. Right. Like, well, you don't get it. And you're not having the conversation that kid could have. And I have always felt as a clinician that I'm at my best, but also working really hard when a kid puts in front of me a side that I don't like, right? Either they're doing stuff at parties they shouldn't be doing or acting in ways they shouldn't be acting. And the energy it takes that is always rewarded if I'm like, what's over here though? I remember one time I had this kid who was not showing very good judgment in my practice and was telling me about the party she was at.

37:08Dr. Lisa Damour: And finally I said to her, what is a smart girl like you doing at a party like that? And she showed up. The smart girl showed up and we worked together. And it was really like as cool a moment I've ever had with a teenager. Yeah, one of the things that I think that I love about that also is this question that I like to ask young people a lot, which is like, is this something that you're choosing for yourself or are others choosing this for you? I love that. Right? Because it gives them that opportunity to reflect on that and say, yeah, where is this coming from for me? Is this because I'm worried about other people's judgment or am I choosing this for myself?

37:59And I think that we may not like the answer that they give Because sometimes they may be like, yeah, I am choosing this. But it encourages that reflection. I think the more that we ask that question, after a while, when we're not around, that question will pop up in their brains. Oh, wait, am I choosing this for myself or is someone else choosing this for me?

38:22Dr. Lisa Damour: So important you said that. Because again, I think people feel like if I don't hit paydirt in the conversation, it didn't work. And I think that we need to give kids time and room to decide for themselves and reflect and have that actually be a private experience, right? That it's not natural to adolescents to come back and be like, you were totally right. I actually had a very funny conversation with my 15-year-old actually right before I came here. Last week, our cupboards were bare. And you know how sometimes you do your best cooking when you have to invent? So she didn't have anything for lunch.

38:53Dr. Lisa Damour: I was like, I'm gonna make you the best turkey sandwich ever. And I made a great turkey sandwich. There was avocado and we had roasted red peppers in the fridge, like all this stuff. I never would have done if I had more food. And so as I was leaving to come here to California, I was running to the grocery store and I said, do you want me to get you a bunch of turkey? And she was like, no. And then I went and showered, whatever. And then as I was headed to the store, she's like, actually get me a bunch of turkey. And I said, it's the worst when your mom's right, isn't it? And she's like, it's the worst.

39:23Dr. Lisa Damour: It's the worst. And that's teenagers. And that's why we love them. Right. The words that come up over and over again in my household, between my husband and me, I was like, oh, that sounds developmentally appropriate. Right? Because I think that we really also have to remember that particularly adolescence is a time, like the job is to individuate from your family of origin. While living with them. Right. While they know what socks you're wearing. Right. Yeah. So that's the developmental task. And I think that for many of us as parents or caregivers or aunties or adults interacting with youth, it can feel like that's this big obstacle.

40:21When, in fact, I think that that's actually our friend. Like, it's just understanding that's what they're supposed to be doing. A young person who is 100 % compliant is not going to be a very functional, right, adult.

40:40Dr. Lisa Damour: We don't want to see it. Right. We don't want to see that. I like them spicy, right? I like them spicy. And what I will often say to families in my practice is adolescence is a very complex time that your kid is working their way through. Adolescence is not something your kid is doing to you. Right. It feels like it's doing to you, but that's actually they have their own work to do and you're pulled in. All right. To expand this question about appearance, though, we are seeing new things happening around boys and their appearance and the online version of this, stuff we have never seen before.

41:19Dr. Lisa Damour: I mean, and I have cared for all adolescents for a long time, have spent a lot of time caring for girls. I'm seeing stuff with boys I'm like what the heck is this you're a mama for boys you think in these worlds what are you seeing, what are you thinking what do you recommend

41:38I mean honestly I think it's wild, I mean this is a podcast so people didn't get to see my eyes get really big as you ask that question we're getting video too and on the one hand it feels really new and a little bit like, oh my gosh, another thing, right, that we have to be worried about. And then on the other hand, I really think that a lot of the same fundamentals apply. And those fundamentals include, I think that the strength of the connection, IRL, but in real life is protective and confers resilience in the digital world. And then also as much as we want to say, that looks like a bunch of nonsense.

42:38One of the things that I find helpful is kind of resisting my urge to say that and engaging with curiosity, right? Like, oh, so what's going on there? And what do you think about that? Like, okay, so is that something that you would want to try? And just as long as it's not involving harm, right, to the extent that we can kind of create a safe place to play, right? Oh, so you're trying this on or you're playing with that and really exploring and seeking to understand, oh, okay, so what about that is interesting to you, right? I think that that is just a healthy way for parents and caregivers to try to respond.

43:29Dr. Lisa Damour: I'm going to pull the technique that you're doing. You're doing something that, you know, like if I could get more clinicians who have my training to do it, it would be great. You're doing a couple things. One is, as soon as we're saying to kids, what do you think about that, right? They know us well enough. that they know we don't ask that kind of question about stuff we feel great about, right? So you're actually, and I think it is important. I think that, you know, they kind of can wonder, is this okay? And as soon as we're like, well, what do you think, right? That they're like, okay, there's a check in the column of like, people I know and trust and who love me are not comfortable with this.

44:04Dr. Lisa Damour: And yet it leaves open the room for them to explore. It doesn't back them into the corner of what is this garbage? And, you know, at which point the kid's like, you don't get it, right? and lets them also back out of it, right? That they can be the one who says, I think it's weird, right? Or I don't like it. Which is where we want this to go. We want this to go there. So it's such that question of like, huh, what do you think about that? I think stands as one of the most valuable questions we have in all of parenting and raising kids because it does so much work so fast. So that is exactly right.

44:43The safer the container we can make to explore this stuff, that our inside voice is like, no, no, no, no, no. But our outside voice has to create a place for it. Otherwise, it is more likely to go underground. Exactly. Yeah.

45:06Dr. Lisa Damour: Okay. We're going to wrap up with a giant question, a hard one, about AI. All right, we've had a lot of conversations at this summit about kids and AI. We have a lot of worries. We have a lot of uncertainty. I am thinking about the population of kids that you care for. Kids who, the slang my teenager is using right now, who have really been through it. Really been through it. When you think about kids who have already been exposed to trauma, who have already been through situations that no child should ever be in, and then you marry that with the availability of AI or companions, what do we need to be thinking about?

45:50This is a place where I think policy and infrastructure really make an important difference. Because for kids who are... So first of all, the data is pretty clear that for kids who are struggling, that they're at much greater risk, right? And when we have algorithms that are designed towards engagement and designed towards somewhat addictive behavior, and particularly when we're going into AI where there is a lot of that follow-up and going down a particular road.

46:33Dr. Lisa Damour: The persuasive, alluring line. Right, exactly. Which is different from anything we've seen before. Exactly. This is fundamentally a safety issue. That when we recognize, and I will just say, just looking at the data around ACEs, which is my area of expertise, when we recognize that two-thirds of Americans have experienced at least one ACE, one in six have experienced four or more ACEs, we have to build systems that make it safe for that one in six to engage with material, right? And if that one in six is at much higher risk or much higher vulnerability, we have to have guardrails around safety and what that looks like and how these platforms are built.

47:34Dr. Lisa Damour: Okay, so I'm going to wrap this up. What I hear us saying together, policy, regulation, especially when we think about our most vulnerable citizens, the power of relationship, and also relationship and relationships too, in terms of keeping kids safe, as a buffering force. Our kids are going to come across things we do not want them to be exposed to. And our relationship with them is the best bet for keeping them safe. I want to thank you for this conversation. And I also just want to thank you, not only are you incredibly brilliant and great at what you do, just the sheer creativity that you bring to child protection.

48:16Dr. Lisa Damour: The way that you think, big, in novel systems, and novel approaches to scale love of kids, to scale protection of kids. I have so much admiration for who you are and how much, much good you do in the world. So thank you. Thank you so much. All right. Thanks, everybody.

48:42Dr. Lisa Damour: Thanks for joining us. Be sure to subscribe to the Ask Lisa podcast so you get the episodes just as soon as they drop. And send us your questions to asklisa at drlisademore.com. And now a word from our lawyers. The advice provided on this podcast does not constitute or serve as a substitute for professional psychological treatment, therapy, or other types of professional advice or intervention. If you have concerns about your child's well-being, consult a physician or mental health professional. If you're looking for additional resources, check out Lisa's website at drlisademore.com. Thank you.