285: ENCORE: How Do I Help My Kid Develop a Work Ethic?

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1:02Tell me a parenting issue everyone struggles with with tweens and teens, but no one talks about. Reena, I think a lot of people feel like they just don't know how to connect to their kid anymore. I'm Reena Nainan, and welcome to Ask Lisa, the psychology of raising tweens and teens.

1:19Dr. Lisa Damour: And I'm Dr. Lisa DeMoor. We bring you science-backed strategies for managing anxiety, discipline, intense emotions, and more. We decode tough parenting issues with tips you can use right now. So subscribe to Ask Lisa, the psychology of raising tweens and teens, and join our YouTube community today. Just Google Ask Lisa Podcast. We're here to help you untangle family life. Encore episode 285. How do I help my kid develop a work ethic?

1:55Dr. Lisa Damour: friends do you feel like you're constantly nagging your kid to do things that they should just totally be doing on their own well i want to offer you a reframe that's going to take some of that pressure off in this episode we dug into what really builds a lasting work ethic in tweens and teens and the answer isn't more pushing it isn't more nagging instead you're going to get a concrete guilt-free framework for building real responsibility without turning it into a battle. Let's get into it. You know, we're talking about work ethics today, which I'm very excited about because I feel like I did it all wrong, Lisa.

2:31And you know, working very closely with me, I am the creative and you and our business development head, Shabir, is always like on me to like, okay, did you do this?

2:41Dr. Lisa Damour: Did you do this? Did you do this? You know, like, so yeah. I'm going to stop you right there. Rena, you're a total workhorse. A total workhorse. Thank you. It doesn't feel that way. I will, though. I'll give you, organization is not your strong suit. It's not your strongest suit. But actually, right out of the gate, let's make a distinction between capacity for work, willingness to work, drive to work, and being organized. Those are two different things. Yeah. And you're plenty organized as well. Yeah. But I just think, you know, yeah, I just wish I had learned early on like these things. But I also will tell you, and maybe it's just me making up for my inabilities here, that sometimes that not being organized is what helps me be more creative because I don't feel the pressure of being stuck in monotony of it all, right?

3:36No, whereas I can be kind of like rigid and like organization is my strong suit, but I know it undermines sometimes my inventiveness.

3:46Dr. Lisa Damour: So like minds are amazing, right? And do all sorts of things and have all sorts of strengths and capacities. But I think this work ethic thing is something we all hope and aspire to for our kids that they'll develop. I know in last week's episode, you were talking about when we were talking about the drug use and substance abuse, you said something that really still resonates with me this week is, will this matter at 30? And I do feel like work ethic and kind of having some sort of semblance of understanding how to do this will matter at 30. Yeah, kids need a work ethic. They do. I'm going to read you the letter.

4:18Hi, Dr. Lisa. I'm writing with a question regarding my 11-year-old son. He is very smart, does well in school, but school tends to be very easy for him. My concern is that he really hates to do any work or chores around the house and also doesn't like to do extra school projects that are not as easy for him. We live on a big piece of property with a lot of outdoor chores, a big garden, chickens, et cetera. He sees us working all the time, either doing outside chores or managing normal household chores. He loves to read and loves to be on electronics. When we require him to help, he groans and complains and makes it generally miserable for everybody.

4:57We worry about his work ethic in general and also get frustrated when he sees everyone around him working and doesn't pitch in. We want him to know the satisfaction of doing a job well, but so far this hasn't clicked. My question is, is this a developmental stage and we just need to be patient or is it possible to motivate him to be a quote, good worker and take initiative. First off, can I just say the kid's 11, but I have felt this way at 11. I felt what this parent is saying. Are we wrong to feel like they should be doing more and wanting to do more? Yeah, you're half right.

5:38Dr. Lisa Damour: I don't think we're wrong to feel like they should be doing more. I don't think we can make them want to do it. I think that that's, you know, it's doing it or doing it with a smile, right? Like they don't need to do it with a smile. But when you begin on something like this, Lisa, where it's like, you know, them having some sort of work, I guess, how do you even get kids to have a work ethic? Okay. That's a really key question. So when kids have a work ethic, why do they have a work ethic, right? We could construct it that way. All right. So there's a few different reasons. One is there are some kids who really, really care about approval from adults or not having the adults be annoyed with them.

6:20Dr. Lisa Damour: And it's either just how they're wired or how they're raised, that this is somehow a very high priority. When we look at the research, it can be often more girls than boys who are worried about adult approval. And so sometimes kids have a work ethic because they want the adults to be happy with them. this kid doesn't seem to mind that his parents are annoyed with him. Another thing that brings about a work ethic is that you're working on something you care about. It is inherently interesting. It's up your alley. Then it's easy to work well, right? And to work hard because you're invested in it.

7:02Dr. Lisa Damour: We call this intrinsic motivation. You do it for the sake of thing. That's another thing that brings around a work ethic. This kid isn't really into the things his folks want him to do. He'd much rather read and play video games. My gosh, who wouldn't? Don't you feel like that's every kid in the world? There's no intrinsic. What is it? Intrinsic? Intrinsic versus extrinsic. Yeah. I feel like there's no intrinsic in teenage years. None. It doesn't exist, Unless it's sports or something like that's not work, right? Right. Well, or that's actually important, right? Like, so the kid likes to read.

7:39Dr. Lisa Damour: He likes to read. He has an intrinsic motivation to read. There are plenty of families who are like, I wish my kid had an intrinsic motivation to read, right? So, you know, he just doesn't have an intrinsic motivation to do the things that they want him to do. So where does intrinsic motivation come from, right? Like, that's a key question. And what we know is, first of all, it comes from choice. When kids feel they can choose among things, their intrinsic motivation is higher. And second, it just comes from interest, right? So it's not rare at all, Reena, for me to care for a kid who basically slogs through school, parents feel like they've got their foot on the kid's neck, And then 11th grade, they take a class that just lights them up and suddenly they're working or suddenly they're interested and suddenly they can put their back into it.

8:40Dr. Lisa Damour: You know, it's a chemistry problem. Like it's the kid has to come up against something that like feels like the right fit. So what do you do when you've got a kid like this who's grumpy about doing chores? But like, come on, they need to do some responsibility. At 11, you are capable. of doing some things around the house. How do you get them if they can't be happy about it? I just want you to do it on your own without me having to nag about it. Okay. Again, you're half there, Rena. That's my problem in life. Well, we're all struggling, right? So you probably are going to have to do some nagging, right?

9:14Dr. Lisa Damour: Like the kid doesn't want to do it. It needs to be done. But they really can be grumpy if they want to. They can't be jerks. They can't act like jerks. They can't say nasty things. But part of parenting is not always getting along with our kids. And part of parenting is asking our kids to do things they don't want to do and requiring them to do it anyway and withstanding the fact that they're going to be annoyed with us about it. Right. And is that fun? No. Is it so much more fun when you and your kid are getting along and having a great time? Absolutely. But you know, Reena, I talk all the time about warmth and structure, right?

9:57Dr. Lisa Damour: Like if you're going to do any, you know, like those are the things to focus on. Well, so in all the research on this, we've also looked at like, okay, so if warmth and structure are the number one, like, you know, you get the best outcomes in families when there's lots of warmth and lots of structure, lots of love and liking, and there's lots of predictability and rules and low chaos. They're like, okay, if families can't do both of those things, what's the next configuration that gets not quite as good outcomes, but pretty good outcomes? Rena, it's structure. It's not the families who are going with warmth as the number one.

10:37And when you say structure, meaning having a system in place of what to expect, like you are expected to at 6 p.m. before you go to soccer practice to have swept the kitchen floor.

10:48Dr. Lisa Damour: Absolutely. Right? That there's rules and expectations and predictability. And, you know, I want all homes to have warmth. But when we have studied this and we've studied this 14 ways, the families that have structure but not warmth, their kids do okay. Their kids do okay, and they do better than families where they have warmth but not structure.

11:14So it's really okay for your kid to be annoyed with you if what you are doing is saying,

11:23Dr. Lisa Damour: we have high expectations and we are going to hold you to them, and what we're asking is fair, and you can be as grumpy as you want to be. All right. Lisa, I want to pause and take a quick break. But on the other side, I want to ask you a little bit about, is there a way to help kids develop this innate sense of satisfaction over what they do? And what do you do if your kid just doesn't want to do any extra stuff around at school? We'll be right back. You're listening to Ask Lisa, The Psychology of Parenting. So in the summer, I'm a big fan of cold soups and salads. And one of the things I like to do is to make a bunch of this stuff maybe on the weekend, and then we just eat from it all week.

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14:02We are talking about motivation and developing work ethic. How do you get kids to do it? Where should they be developmentally? So I want to go back to this letter that I'm looking at. And the parent says that he's a good kid. He's naturally smart, but he doesn't love to go above and beyond on school projects. that are hard for him. Is there anything that can be done when your kid just is not motivated to do above and beyond or even just the bare minimum sometimes? Right.

14:29Dr. Lisa Damour: It's hard, right? There are lots of kids who are like, I didn't choose this class. I don't want to do the work. I don't like the teacher. Why should I be bringing my A game? So this is, again, we should have some heading for this, Rena, like less fun parts of parenting, right? This is under less fun parts of parenting your kid. What you said about things that matter when you're 30, knowing how to work, knowing how to do work we don't feel like doing, knowing how to bring muscle to something that is not inherently appealing is a critical life skill.

15:10Dr. Lisa Damour: and also kids need good habits around how to do work and where to do work and when to do work so some of the less pleasant aspects of parenting can sometimes crop up right around the grade this kid is in you know fifth sixth grade where maybe they have a little homework and they don't really like it and they can kind of phone it in and they can kind of get away with it I would make the case that this is a good time to say, even if the work feels easy now, it won't always be so. So let's set up a place where you do your homework and a time where you do your homework so you get in the habit of having a place and a time.

15:47Dr. Lisa Damour: Because when the work gets harder, you're going to want that to be more automatic. So I would push on that. Then if the kid just dashes it off, does a lousy job, right? And again, they're going to be like, it's not following me anywhere. It doesn't really matter. You can say, I don't care. I want you to do a decent job of this. It doesn't have to be polished to a high shine, but I want you to start to learn what it feels like to do good work. We're going to require this so that you develop that capacity, you develop that habit for when the work gets harder, practice on the easy stuff. You're going to bring it to the harder stuff.

16:21Dr. Lisa Damour: This will also probably annoy your child. But if you care about school and that's something that matters to you as a family, they are going to need, and I use the expression foot on the neck, sometimes in some families, that is what middle school looks like. Yeah. How do you get kids to feel that sense of motivation? Like when you accomplish something, you feel good about it, so you put in the work. A lot of times kids just don't care about feeling good or getting that satisfaction of doing a job. So to motivate them that when you accomplish this, you're going to do a great job, you're going to feel good, like it just doesn't cut it for kids these days, I feel.

17:00Dr. Lisa Damour: Yeah, it may not. I mean, they may be like, I don't really care about how well I clean that chicken coop, right? Like, it's not where my interests lie. And again, they did not choose it. I think we have to remember, and I think about this a lot, Rina, like we love our jobs. but there are still plenty of days when we're like oh i'd really rather read and play video games right and this is us we chose our jobs we um have colleagues we enjoy doing our job with we get paid to do our job right and even still we're like oh but couldn't i stay in bed and read so i think you know we gotta summon some empathy for this kid who's like i didn't ask for this i I don't want to do it.

17:43Dr. Lisa Damour: Like, why would I be into it? Okay. So then sometimes you have to put a little bit of juice behind it. Give them some skin in the game. So this is where you say, playing video games hinges on you cleaning the chicken coop, right? So you may not feel good about the chicken coop, but you're going to feel good about the fact that you get to play your video games and you've done what I've asked. It comes to the question of paying for chores, right? There are a lot of debates about this, about whether one should or should not pay for chores. But you could also, if this is what's going to motivate your kid, you could say, I know you want those new sneakers.

18:20Dr. Lisa Damour: Your allowance hinges on you doing the chicken coop. So you may not feel good about the chicken coop, but you're going to feel good about earning the money for the new sneakers. It is okay to link up privileges and responsibilities as early in development as you want to. So this kid is a member of an organization. That organization is the family. The family is counting on him. He has responsibilities as part of that. But meeting those responsibilities comes with some privileges, right? And then families can decide what kinds of privileges those are going to be. So there's something motivating them.

18:50Dr. Lisa Damour: Yeah, but it's not the job. It's the reward. And this is extrinsic motivation, right? So when we talk about intrinsic versus extrinsic, intrinsic is I do it because like, oh my gosh, I'm so drawn to it and I love it and I don't even have to try to feel motivated. Extrinsic is I do it for a reward or praise or because I'm going to get in trouble if I don't do it. Extrinsic is fine, Rina, right? It's part of how the world turns, right? Is that you're not always into it. And so I hear this sometimes in schools where there's such a privileging of intrinsic motivation, like, well, the good kids have it.

19:29Dr. Lisa Damour: I'm like, yeah, sometimes some days. But there's a lot of kids who like, they're doing it because they want the adult to like them, right? Because they don't want to be in trouble at home. And like, that's sometimes how things get done too. I'm looking at this letter and the mom says the kid is 11. What is developmentally correct? You know, is this just a developmental phase? Will we grow out of it? Is this the teenage years? What should we expect when it comes to chores and pushing your kids to, you know, feel like they're an active member and pitching in? So nothing about this letter strikes me as odd developmentally.

20:07Dr. Lisa Damour: And I bet you feel the same way, right? Yeah. Like, yeah, I mean, he's a sixth grader likely. Like, he's not going to want to do these things. And in fact, he'd just really rather read. I mean, like, in many ways, this is kind of a lovely picture. the question that is at the center of this is will he change will he grow and change over time so I don't have any particular concerns that he will fail to develop strong interests right this is a family with a lot of work ethic this is a you know motivated organized structured family in my universe that tends to leave kids who like discover something and they get into it and they get behind it.

20:51Dr. Lisa Damour: Will this kid continue to be grumpy when asked to do chores until the day he leaves home? Sure, probably. Right? Okay. I think it's funny, Rina. I've spent so much of my time caring for adolescent girls. And one of the things I have noticed over time is, especially for girls, we can want them to both do what we ask and also seem to be glad to. And I feel like, why do they have to pretend to be glad if they're not? I guess the issue is we want them to do it. I don't care if you're happy or sad about doing it, but I don't want to have to nag you over and over again. You should be self-motivated and high school to get those projects done that I don't have to be over you to sweep the floor, wipe down the countertops.

21:45It's not hard work. It's not like intensive labor, but it is two or three things that might take about 20 minutes, but you need to budget it so I'm not nagging about it. And I feel like it's just so hard to get teens to do that. And especially when you throw on sports and you throw on school and you throw on they're exhausted and then it's the dead of winter. Or how do I make that happen so I'm not the nag? All right.

22:13Dr. Lisa Damour: What you're making me think about here is one of my favorite conversations I had with a colleague. And it's a psychologist named Andrew Fellini who's at UCLA who studies teenagers. And he studies purpose and its positive impact on teenagers having a sense of purpose. purpose. But our conversation, he said something. He said, you know, purpose, it's not necessarily like some grand thing in the world. It's feeling that somebody is counting on them. That is what young people need, a sense that somebody is counting on them. And so back to your question about how do I get them to do the counter, walk the dog, or whatever.

23:01I think some teenagers will be better motivated if you make it clear, we're relying on you to do this.

23:11Dr. Lisa Damour: The dog is counting on you to do this. The counters won't get cleaned unless you clean them. we rely on one another in this family and we're counting on you. Because I think so often, Reena, and I've totally done this, it's just easier to do it yourself. But then I get stressed because I am working full time and then to add on these things that really should be their things. And then I turn into, as they call it, a knack. Exactly. Or I feel pissy because I did it. But I did it because I wanted it done and it was easier for me to do it than to find my kid and knack. Totally. So, okay. So, Rena, what have you and I resolve in our own homes that in framing up the expectations and the chores, and maybe this is going to be so corny that by the time it's out of my mouth, I hate it and I take it all back.

24:05Dr. Lisa Damour: But maybe we just start to say like, look, to get this place to run, we all have our jobs. And this place can't run unless we're all doing our jobs. These are the kinds of things I'm doing around the house that everybody is counting on me to do and that I execute quite reliably. These are the things we are counting on you to do. You are an important member of this family. You are an important member of this organization. We're counting on you to do these things. It doesn't mean you have to like it, but you should take pride in the fact that we rely on you and we can. What do you think? I feel like a lot of teenagers are like, I just don't want to do it.

24:40I just don't want to do it. And they might not tell you this, that's the thing, but they're actions because they don't care enough to continue and follow through. They vote with their feet. They vote with their feet. They vote with their feet. That's well said.

24:55Dr. Lisa Damour: As I start to think about the start of the school year, I can feel my jaw start to tighten. Like, I'm excited for everyone to go back, but there are so many logistics to manage. The thing that is getting me through this is our skylight calendar. because what it gives us is a clear visual guide of what everybody's doing, when they're doing it, and it really helps us manage the day-to-day activities with so much less confusion. Now, what the Skylight calendar is, it's an all-in-one digital smart calendar that syncs seamlessly with Google Calendar, Apple Calendar, Outlook, and more. Families are better when they're working together.

25:33Dr. Lisa Damour: Right now, Skylight is offering our listeners$30 off their 15-inch calendars by going to myskylight.com slash asklisa. Go to myskylight.com slash asklisa for$30 off your 15-inch calendar. That is myskylicht.com slash asklisa. So I usually eat lunch at my desk just to save time. And to make up for this, I try to make myself a good lunch that I can look forward to all day or at least all morning. And in the summer, it's usually a turkey sandwich. I think you can do a lot with turkey sandwiches. But I have to tell you, my turkey sandwiches have just gone through the roof in terms of quality because I'm now making them with hero bread.

26:20Dr. Lisa Damour: OK, this is a really amazing product. First of all, it tastes great. It's just soft and fluffy. It's as yummy as any bread I've ever had. But unlike most breads, it has tons of fiber. It has only 0 to 5 grams of net carbs, and it has 0 grams of sugar. So all of the yumminess of bread, but all upside, which is really rare to find. Right now, Hero Bread is offering 10 % off your order. Go to hero.co and use code ASKLISA at checkout. That's ASKLISA at H-E-R-O dot C-O. Okay. So let's put this in order of what we might expect. So the highest possible expectation, which I'm not going to hold for very often for very many families, is that the kid is like, you're right.

27:16Dr. Lisa Damour: I am an important member of this organization and you are all counting on me. Are you family? Step forward. I'd love to hear more. Give me that sponge. I'm going to clean the couch. Okay. Some kids might be moved by that idea of like you're counting on me and that's important. So I'm going to do my thing and they'll do it. I think a tick down from that, probably far more common, is the family that says, look, I don't like being on your case. You don't like me being on your case. The quick and easy solution is you do the thing and then we can go back to having our good time. And I think that's actually a really key thing that you got to be having fun with your kids so that the nagging comes at a cost.

27:56I have said this before, I will say it again.

28:00Dr. Lisa Damour: Our good time with our kid is our number one disciplinary strategy. Because if you're having a good time and suddenly you're like, whoa, what's going on with the counter? The kid has a motivation to fix the counter to get back to the good time they were having with you. So that's option number two. Number one is idealized. I'm a member of this organization. Number two is we're having a good time. And then when I don't, when you have to be on my case, it undermines that good time. So I'm going to do the thing, or I'm going to do it quickly because you're now frustrated with me. I think option number three, kind of going down the chain is the things I want to do are hinge on me doing the things you need me to do.

28:39Dr. Lisa Damour: So I can't go out and play football. I can't, you know, have access to the car. I can't, fill in the blank until I have met my responsibilities around this household. There's nothing wrong with that. That is totally appropriate. Privileges, responsibilities, hand in hand, link them up all day long. That's how the world works. Your kid could be grumpy as long as they get it done. And then this is like probably 3A or 3B. You know my other favorite quote from my colleague, complain but comply. Complain but comply. So they can complain. And I think on that quote, I think part of what I love about it is there's a gentle humor in it, right?

29:25Dr. Lisa Damour: So you say to the kid, you need to clean the chicken coop. And the kid's like, grumpy, grumpy, grumpy. If you're like, yep, okay, complain but comply, right? You're basically saying like, I'm here to have a good time when you're done with that. Yeah. You can move on. Yes, it's the complain that we can do successfully. It's the comply that I'm working on. The comply. That's the issue. Lisa, when you step back, is there anything else when you're talking about developing these skills that are lifelong skills that can really be transformative in the workforce? What else do you think parents need to know about helping kids develop a good work ethic?

30:01part of what helps especially in middle school is not running afoul of your family but running

30:09Dr. Lisa Damour: afoul of your teachers so one thing that I have done at times and I love doing this is if I'm visiting a school I will say to the kids write down on a piece of paper something you wish your parents knew and then I can tell them tonight and Rina you would be shocked by how often in middle schools I have gotten kids to write down something like, please let me deal with the consequences of my own choices. Wow. It's almost like they want to fall. They want to fall. Fall and then get up on their own. Yep. So if you're on their case to make them do their work, and they always get their work done because you're nagging so much, you're the work ethic, right?

30:53Dr. Lisa Damour: They haven't developed it. If you're like, you know what, you're not doing your work, you'll take it up with your teacher. And if it's a teacher, and especially teacher they care about, who's like, what is this? This is so beneath your capacities. This is so not like you. I expect more. That is often in the failure, in the falling short, in the coming up against the consequence of that, that is often transformative for kids in terms of getting a work ethic in place. That is very interesting to me. I mean, I never thought of letting them fall and face the consequences as equally as important as nagging them to get it done.

31:34It is.

31:35Dr. Lisa Damour: And I will tell you on the academic side, this kid is in prime time for it because if he blows it in the sixth grade and learns a lesson that way, fantastic. If you support a kid all the way through middle school and you're the one who's nagging and making it happen, you're not going to pull that out away from them when they hit ninth grade when suddenly, right, you know, that's a record that can follow them. So what I would say is on the school side of this kid's challenges, tell the teachers, you know what, ask a lot of him. You have my permission to, you know, make him face the consequences of falling short.

32:14No problem there if he has some pretty bumpy moments in the sixth, seventh, and even eighth grade. Middle school years, who knew, could be important for letting them fall and learn that lesson before they hit high school? Prime time. So Lisa, what do you have for us for Parenting to Go?

32:32Dr. Lisa Damour: All right, Reena. For Parenting to Go, here's something really important. This parent is asking if what this boy is doing is normal. And the answer is actually yes, because it is normal for teenagers to find friction with adults. Part of the job of a teenager is to rub adults the wrong way. So one thing we have to accept, though not enjoy as parents of teenagers, is that there are going to be things like their rooms, like their chores, like where they dump their bag, that bug us and keep bugging us. And as much as we don't enjoy it, it is a sign of healthy and typical and expectable growth for teenagers to do things that are frankly just non-compliant.

33:24Dr. Lisa Damour: And in my world, I like those non-compliant things to be around things like chores and walking the dog and not around the higher stakes stuff, drugs, drinking, reckless driving. So settle in for some friction on the small stuff. And I believe good friction on the small stuff usually keeps kids from having to ratchet it up to find the friction that they're looking for. All right. Lisa's so grateful. And next week, we're going to talk about getting into college, what you need to know with special guest, Rick Clark. I'll see you next week. I'll see you next week. Thank you.

34:33Thank you.