286: ENCORE: Getting into College with Rick Clark

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1:02Tell me a parenting issue everyone struggles with with tweens and teens, but no one talks about. Reena, I think a lot of people feel like they just don't know how to connect to their kid anymore. I'm Reena Nainan, and welcome to Ask Lisa, the psychology of raising tweens and teens. And I'm Dr. Lisa DeMoor.

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1:55Dr. Lisa Damour: friends all right some of you are dealing with college admissions and boy is it a tough and anxiety producing process this episode i promise you is going to help calm everything down our guest rick clark has spent his entire career inside admissions he's at georgia tech and he joins us to answer your questions about college admissions we talk about the essays about test scores, financial aid, college consultants, and all of these, how to handle them but not let them take over your family's life. If you are in the thick of college planning, do not go one step further without tuning into this episode.

2:31Dr. Lisa Damour: I promise you it's going to help the whole thing feel a lot more manageable. When college admissions looms, families often feel confused and anxious. What really matters? What doesn't? Rick Clark, a veteran admissions expert, breaks down what students need to know and what parents can do to support without adding pressure. Here's an encore episode of Getting Into College with special guest, Rick Clark. You know, my opinion of college has changed since we started this podcast. I feel like every year, it's just my imagination. It's like every year the standards have changed somehow. We have been doing this podcast in a time when there's been as much transition as I have ever been aware of in the college landscape.

3:15Dr. Lisa Damour: The pandemic really disrupted things, and it's different than I've ever seen before, and I've been in this business for almost 30 years. So you're not making that up, Rena. Thank you for validating my feelings of how I feel this way. I can't wait to get right to this guest. We've got a fabulous guest today. Rick Clark is Georgia Tech's Executive Director for Strategic Student Access, where he advances relationships with educational leaders and community organizations to grow enrollment, expand access, and ensure affordability. For 15 years, he's led Georgia Tech's undergrad admissions team. He also travels annually to U.S.

3:50embassies throughout the State Department to discuss the admissions process and landscape of higher education. And by the way, over the last eight years, he's also written a regular blog on the college admissions process. We're going to have that in our show notes. And he's co-author of a book and workbook called The Truth About College Admissions, a family guide to getting in and staying together. And he co-hosts a podcast under the exact same name. Rick, welcome. Thanks so much for having me. Really looking forward to the conversation.

4:18Dr. Lisa Damour: We are thrilled to have you join us. I know what good work you do in this area, and we're just going to get right down to business here. Perfect. When should parents start the college process? Walk us through the grade levels. Who should be doing what when? Sure. Well, it's a great question, and it's a very understandable question. Let me just say, I currently have a rising eighth grader and also a daughter and then a rising a sophomore son. So I'm very much in this mode outside of my professional work, really personally and with neighbors, et cetera. You know, I think to an extent it does depend, but the truth is that, you know, in that middle school sort of getting into high school range, there are some things to be aware of, mainly surrounding course choices and progression.

5:09There are impacts that what you do in that eighth grade year does impact sort of the path and the trajectory that you're going to have in high school. Now, that is not to say start thinking about certain school names or get overly obsessed with this whole thing, but to be cognizant of planning, right? That courses in high school are impacted by course choices in middle school, right? That's the one thing I think that you could be doing prior to high school. Just be mindful of that and acknowledging and understanding what that might look like. For ninth and 10th graders, though, the biggest thing I would say to students and parents is just be a good high school student.

5:54You know, at the end of the day, to go to class, to take things that are interesting to you, to actually learn the information that is foundational to where you're headed in high school and beyond, and to be a good community member. And really right now, as you said at the top, much is changing, but what hasn't changed is what colleges are looking for. Colleges have always and continue to look for quote unquote good students and good future community members in their campuses. So involving yourself outside of just being a good student, whether that be in the school or in the community and certainly in your family.

6:38And that's what I say to a lot of my friends and neighbors right now who have kids in our same peer group is just be a good student, just be a good community member. And you're doing all you need to be doing to be a good college applicant ultimately. Okay, Rick. So spill it. Spill the secrets. What do parents need to know that college admissions won't tell you to get your application to really stand out? Is it the SAT score? Is it the grades? Is it the extracurriculars? What really matters to get that boost? Yeah. I mean, here again, people want that recipe, right? They want the formula. And I think we are partly to blame.

7:22I'm pointing at myself here and my colleagues, even the media on some level, because when you hear the college admission blank, everybody fills in the word process, right? And that is just the vernacular surrounding this. And I really, my experience in 20 plus years now of being in a space is it's not a process. You know, a process suggests X plus Y equals Z. And there is some sort of guaranteed best path. And if the girl down the street did it that way and ended up at the school you want to go to, just follow her pattern and then that's going to be the same for you. And it's just so far from the truth because when you look at what colleges are looking for and what quote stands out, at Georgia Tech, as an example, our first year class will be almost 4 ,000 students.

8:16That's a wide variety of what stood out. And sometimes in a holistic review, that is just a highly uber-focused student in one particular area. And in other times, what stood out was, how in the heck did this kid possibly do all of these different things? And that's what's so amazing. Or the fact that they are from North Dakota and want to study public policy really stood out. And so, you know, that - So we need to move to North Dakota? Is that what you're telling me? That's the advantage? That's the trick. That's what people need to know. I'm spilling it now. North Dakota.

8:56Dr. Lisa Damour: Okay, we're done. We're done. No, we do have more questions. We do have more questions. So if you're not prepared to move to North Dakota, which, you know, is a wonderful place to live as someone who grew up in the West, I will say. Not as a Florida girl, though. I can't do it. Yeah, okay. So it's not going to work for everybody. Rick, talk us through how things have changed. I mean, really, the landscape has shifted so quickly. You know, like, we can say the last decade, we can say the last five years, like, give us just a take on this. No, it's true. You know, and it's been really interesting.

9:33Georgia Tech, for me, has been a case study in that and a great example. I mean, you know, I came here 20 years ago. At that time, And, you know, we received under 10 ,000 applications. A good school, I think one that has, you know, if you look at the students that came through then, wasn't hard to get in. We were admitting two thirds of the students who applied, which, by the way, is the national average still nationally for four year schools. About two out of every three. And over time, you know, for a variety of reasons, this last year we received 60 ,000 applications. So while our class has grown from 2200 to nearly 4000, we're not keeping up with demand.

10:14And so 65 percent admit rate goes down to 15 percent admit rate over that same period of time. I think what we've seen is a couple of different things. I mean, one, the fact that we have a truly global higher education market and students from all over the world see America still as a great producer of talent through higher education. And so the interest and the ability to apply, the funnel at the top certainly is wide. That is one thing. The ease of applying to college through the common application in particular has made it, again, more accessible and easy for students to apply. But then I think what's also happened is as ROI has continued to be a huge piece, maybe the most popular acronym in higher education, and we do acronyms very well in higher education.

11:10Dr. Lisa Damour: And this is return on investment. Like, what am I getting for? What am I paying for my kids' college? Okay. You know, you come out of the recession, 2008, 2009 in particular, and America is really asking that question more than ever before. What am I getting each individual major? What is it worth? What's the return? And as cost has gone up, that ROI question has only become more popular and more understandable. And so I think for schools that answer that question well, they have a big brand nationally and internationally. They can demonstrate that their students are getting amazing opportunities when they're done.

11:47Popularity has also driven. And so what we see and hear around us is it is so hard to get into college. And it is very hard to get into certain colleges. But really, if you look at schools that admit less than 25 percent, there's only about 80 of them in the country. It's just that that's what we focus on. Right. Right. That's the fear of it. I was a public relations major in college. I mean, if it bleeds, it leads. Right. And that's why we talk about Stanford, because they have an extremely low admit rate. But that's that's actually not representative of what's really happening in higher ed. And I think that's important because coming out of the pandemic with the demographic cliff that we're heading towards more or fewer, you know, American students were born in the seven, eight range.

12:36And now those kids are graduating from high school. Schools need students more than they ever have before. The admit rate nationally for four-year schools has been going up, not down. And so I think that's also important to be reminded of is we have an ecosystem of higher ed and we have a very small sliver. And what a lot of people think of is a signpost, Harvard or Yale or whatever it might be, in many ways is more of an outpost in the true sense of college admission. I guess the last thing I'll say is test optional has really made anxiety understandably go up. You're talking about SAT and SAT and ACT scores.

13:21The ability to choose if they send a score or not, while I'm an advocate for that. It has brought into this conversation a little bit more consternation because it seems less predictable and unknown. And of course, and you all are the experts in this area, that unknown brings some anxiety and stress. You know, they say money doesn't grow on trees, but it is hard to get your kids to understand that unless they physically go through what it's like to save and be able to spend the money that they're getting in. This is why I absolutely love the Cash App, whether it's birthday money from grandma and grandpa or an allowance for finally cleaning their room or saving up for something they really want.

14:05You see it all. And it helps guide the decisions along the way. Their savings, their habits, the history, all of it carries forward every step of the way from parent-managed accounts at six to a teen account at 13, or you can get a full account at 18. I think of it as structured independence. They get real life practice with money and you're right there with them through every stage.

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16:02Rick, you know, you were talking a little bit about ACTs and SATs. I want to just go back for just a second. And a parent's writing in about the college application process and asking here, how much weight goes into the college essay and how do you make that stand out? Sure. You know, the college essay gets a lot of attention and a lot of scrutiny and stress, you know, coming along with that. I think it's because, and I'm seeing this right now with neighbors and friends who have seniors in high school, it's kind of the last thing that you control. You know, you, especially with so many students now applying early action or early decision, schools around the country are making a lot of their decisions based on your freshman through junior year grades.

16:49You've sort of done what you've done, right? If you were in the French club in ninth grade, well, you can't go back and eat the bread and do that now, right? You've done it or you haven't done it. With the essay, though, it's this one last thing that you can still sort of control your writing. And I think that's why it gets a lot of attention. And there's a lot of value in the essay, right? Because it's the one place where a student can give voice to all the, you know, things that otherwise are just sort of boxes and lines. And lots of students can look very similar in those boxes and lines. But when it comes to the essay, unless they have an interview, this is your opportunity for voice.

17:27The truth is that there is not a perfect topic. You can write really the best and worst essay of the year on the exact same thing. But I think there is a wasted essay, and that's, I think, what I hope people would hear from me, is that a wasted essay is when you tell the same story in prose. In other words, a lot of students will, you know, I think, really miss the opportunity by reiterating what we already know. I think the essay, the best essays, in my opinion, are ones where it's a little bit surprising. You didn't see it coming, right? something that was not really part of how you were picturing the student, because that's what we do in admission is we start sketching a student in our mind.

18:14Where are you from? What does your family look like? What have your choices been curricularly? What have you done with your precious time outside the classroom? We have this sketch. And the essay is that opportunity to sort of color it in and frame it up a little bit. And when students just sort of keep going over the lines they've already drawn, we don't gain anything additional. And so I think that's really where an essay stands out and has value is telling a next chapter instead of reiterating a prior chapter.

18:48Dr. Lisa Damour: I love that. And I have a daughter who's now a junior in college. And my favorite of her college essays was about her retail job and about dealing with challenging customers at her retail job and all that she learned. And she wrote, it was funny and insightful, but I can also see it feels like it fits what you're describing, which is that's not coming up on her transcript. That's beyond what she already had shared. That's right. And your example is a good one because we learn about her, how she thinks and how she interacts with others, invaluable to a college admission committee. Whereas sometimes you learn a lot about the grandfather who sounds like a great applicant were he to be the one coming to college, right?

19:33Rick, you have just spilled a major college admissions insider secret. You've just dropped a major major gem. We really appreciate it. Okay.

19:41Dr. Lisa Damour: Back to the questions from our wonderful listeners. How can parents support their kids in building a strong college application without adding too much pressure on their kids? Yeah, so I really think that one of the biggest gifts that we can give our kids as they're applying to college and even considering college, talking about going to visit schools and all this information that we send them, right, and they're digesting that, is to tell a bigger story. You know, I think that parents role, as I've come to understand it, is we are coaches in perspective, you know, and the more that we can help our first of all, instill in them that we want what's best for them, that we are listening to them along the way.

20:32and that we have seen many friends, neighbors, and colleagues who have taken many routes to happiness and success and fulfillment. That is maybe the biggest gift. I think, therefore, that people have said on panels that I've been on over the years that students need to own the process and students need to drive the process in a way that it sounds like the parent isn't even there. I just think that's a unrealistic and actually misses some of the opportunity that this provides for parents to partner. You know, and I do think that this is a concept that we talk a lot about is this shift from parent to partner.

21:12And I think this is college admission is the beginning of that setting up a lifetime relationship that is changing. Again, this is part of why I think it's hard sometimes going through the college admission, not process, I like to say experience, because it demonstrates a shift in the dynamics of the relationship and a turning of the page, but one that sets up the rest of life together and how we support one another, listen to one another, etc. So I think the biggest thing that parents can do, and I think we talk about this in the book a little bit, but controlling the conversation by setting up a weekly meeting where instead of letting it bleed into life and all conversations, it's 10 o 'clock, just got back from tennis practice, trying to get a snack.

22:00And all of a sudden we're talking about like the Notre Dame essay, you know? Wrong task. That's not healthy, not constructive. Nobody's benefiting. But, you know, if you can say, look, from three to four on Sunday, we we are going to really come together and be willing to like string together multisyllabic words into what we call sentences. I have a teenage son, so I understand. And all questions are on the table. And, you know, you can limit it, limit the number of snacks and no cell phones and, you know, have a healthy exchange. I think that's where parents can be most beneficial is I'm going to coach you in perspective, lots of routes to success.

22:46And I'm not going to let this become the thing in our relationship. The majority of our week is us as a family, us in a relationship. But there is going to be a time where we're sitting down together to work together and to partner together on what we know for you is an important next step.

23:06Dr. Lisa Damour: I love this because having been through this, it can take over and it can be all-consuming. And I can see that it would be such a gift to the teenager and to the parents to be like, we're going to get to it, but it's going to have some boundaries around it. I equate it to selling a house. You're always thinking about like, oh, is somebody going to have a better house that comes up on the market? And we have to show it today and worrying so much about all the things and it can bleed into all conversations. And that is not how we, I know no parent would say that's how we want to kind of have this chapter close, but yet it happens.

23:45And I think that putting some of those guardrails in place has a lot of value. Rick, I know before the break, we were talking about test optional, whether you should submit your SATs and ACTs. What role today do standardized tests have in the admissions process? It is noisy. And I would say right now, unfortunately, it's going to stay noisy. If you are a parent listening who has a high school student at any age, be it a junior or a senior, really kind of more in this, or even a freshman or a sophomore, it's going to stay noisy. We've seen some schools with big brands go back to requiring tests, but they're really not representative of what's happening around most of the country.

24:32I mean, of course, California system, which is a behemoth within college overall, is test blind or test free, meaning they're not going to look at it at all. Hallelujah. Thank you, California. That's major. I mean, Taylor Swift, you know, she has a song, Florida. We should do California. No SAT scores needed. Like we need to shout that from the hilltops. That is amazing. Because if you don't do well on tests, we've got to place an entire state for you to apply to. That's great.

25:02Dr. Lisa Damour: And that's for anybody. Nobody. Nobody submits. Is that what you're saying? That nobody submits. They will not accept it. Their system will not allow for the test to come through. Even if a kid tries to sneak it into their essay like, oh, and by the way, I made a 1580. They are redacting that out of review. Is that for public or private or just public? That's public. That's the state system in California. And so, you know, you have many schools around the country. In fact, the vast majority still saying test optional. What's challenging is a couple of things, and we won't go too much into the weeds, but, you know, it leaves a student questioning, should I send my score or not?

25:47The common wisdom is to look at prior year's middle 50 % ranges. And let's say a school says last year our admitted student range, middle 50%, was between a 1320 and a 1450. And a student is sitting there with a 1400. The general wisdom on that would be you should submit your score because that's well within their band. And I don't think that's bad advice. However, it also needs to be understood that the math isn't really mathing so much on this right now, because if you have a percentage of your students who are electing not to send scores, the averages are actually escalating because only a smaller percentage, theoretically, those with higher scores are sending their scores.

26:38And this is challenging. And I think this is where it's incumbent upon admission folks to be as transparent as possible to say what percentage of our students sent scores? What was our admit rate for those who sent versus did not send? What is the middle 50 percent for those who did send? And give some real context around this, because, you know, students are left wondering, does optional really mean optional? And does optional really mean optional for me? You know, I'm a girl from Connecticut who wants chemistry. That answer might be different than, you know, somebody from a very different demographic applying to the same school.

27:16And so this is where I think colleges have responsibility to go beyond what they have to this point, which is just to say, we're test optional. Send it if you want. Don't send it if you don't want. It's data. And there's more information that can be provided that would be helpful.

27:32Dr. Lisa Damour: Okay, so here's another question we have from a parent who is interested in trying to get the process started a bit early. If you want to start summer before junior year, where do I find the college essay prompts? Sure. Well, let's acknowledge, first of all, that they're probably going to change by the time your student gets there, right? Ah, key point. You know, especially right now, I mean, there's been so much shifting happening with essay prompts from schools. Now, the Common App, right, which is going to be the main essay, they're going to stay pretty stable. So you could go on right now.

28:10You could just go Google Common App essay prompts. And you could be fairly assured that at least 80 percent of those will be the same for your student if you have, to your point, a rising junior, rising sophomore, which, again, I do. I would tell him, yeah, I think you're going to probably see most of these by the time you get to writing your college essays. For individual institutions, though, literally every year they sit down and say, what could we ask better? How is it that we might ask students to tell us about themselves is going to be helpful? And how can we learn from the prior admission cycle?

28:47And in that regard, supplemental questions, which are individual to the institutions, change very consistently. And I will say, coming out of the Supreme Court case from last year, which, you know, sort of unraveled 40 years of court precedent around whether or not race could be considered in the college admission process, many schools adapted their supplemental questions, you know, as a result of that. And they're constantly examining, rightly so, their process and how they can best sort of construct their application to get the information they want to make the best decisions for their class.

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31:47Rick, I want to ask you about athletic scholarships because I know there are a lot of parents who feels like maybe, maybe, maybe my kid could be playing in D1 or in some university or college campus. How much responsibility, and this is a question, you know, these questions all came from our viewers. This one's from another viewer who says, a listener who says, how much responsibility should I take as a mom in athletic visibility with prospective coaches? Can you walk us through that path of getting an athletic scholarship to go to school? Yeah. Well, first I was looking at some of this data recently.

32:21You know, I happen to have two of my own kids who play different sports. And so I'm surrounded by lots of parents who, even at a fairly early age, are talking about college scholarships. And as someone who has worked with our athletic department here for quite a while at a Division I level, I think people would be shocked either A, at the percentage of students who actually do end up with scholarships, and what percentage of those scholarships are, quote, full rides. The vast majority are not. And even at the D1 level, that's true, right? Even at the Division I level, it's generally your, quote, revenue sports like football and basketball where you'll have the full rides.

33:02And then many of your, what we would call Olympic sports or people might call non-rev sports, are going to be partial scholarships. So I think just the reality of that, the fact that I think only 7%, depending on the sport, of high school students at the high school varsity level move on to play Division III, Division I, college athletics. So it's a lot smaller percentage than people think. And the money available is usually lower than what people think. That said, I think for parents, the truth is right now, these showcases and all of the different types of, I would say, unfortunately, mechanisms in place to be identified has again shifted dramatically even in the last five years regardless of sport volleyball baseball basketball across the board there's been a real change in this and much of that does fall on the parents to have to decide okay my students and their future aspirations and their particular club typically club sport level now where do we need to invest to make sure they have an opportunity, you know, to play at the college level.

34:16It's probably, it's tough, right? Because the best advice here is going to be, I think, to talk to parents who already have college students playing versus sometimes the club coaches or even the high school coaches, because there are some other factors going into their advice, that should be taken into consideration.

34:39Dr. Lisa Damour: That was very diplomatic. I'll say it. This can get shady. What do you mean? The motivations aren't always pure. Yeah. That's right. I've just missed this. This has totally gone over my head. Sure. Ultimately, there's a lot of money in these identification camps and showcases. I mean, and kids will fly from Atlanta, just as an example to Dallas and to Raleigh and to Richmond and to Philadelphia to get their students seen by coaches. And this is the position that a lot of parents are being put in because, look, at the end of the day, we love our kids and we want what's best for them. I mean, if parents didn't love their kids so much, a lot of these problems would go away.

35:24I would fly to Uganda. Let's stick with loving our kids. I would fly to Uganda if you told me I could get my kid in early and they'd play sports and, you know, but I get it. I understand that's a whole other can of worms. We probably got to do a whole episode on athletics. And you're right, because the other piece that's changing a lot right now is the portal, the transfer portal, because, you know, some of the students who used to have an opportunity to go play at a certain level are now having to take a bit of a different route because the way colleges are pulling kids who are already demonstrating talent at the college level at maybe a lower class, you know, in a division.

36:00Right. And so that's also shrinking the straight out of high school funnel. It is, it is rife right now with challenges and consternation, understandably. And the truth is, even being with our athletic director yesterday, they don't have all the answers. So much is changing in college sports right now. Okay.

36:23Dr. Lisa Damour: Let's talk about money. We can't have this conversation with talking about how you pay for college, right? How do families set themselves up for financial aid, scholarships? Where should they be looking? Where are we with FAFSA? Where are we? The year behind us can be described in no other way, but just totally foobar. And people can go Google that on their own, Rena. I'm not sure if that one went over your head. on their own leisure. And the Department of Education, of course, rightly is saying this year is going to be better and that we're going to open everything on October 1. But opening an application on October 1 versus schools receiving the data they need to be actionable is a very different story.

37:09And we won't rewind to the year that was because it was a total mess and hopefully in many ways an anomaly. But where we are right now in time is there is a simplified FAFSA. And that's what Congress had asked the Department of Education to do back in 2020. And that is in place. And there are some really good things. The IRS retrieval system, where these two things are talking with one another and getting that ironed out, is a good thing. It's more simple for for students and for families. And there is more federal money available than ever before. And that also is positive. I think, though, for most families, the biggest message is that there are net price calculators on all college websites that should absolutely be utilized in order to get a good sense of what, for your family, this particular college might look like.

38:07And it's understandable that colleges take a lot of, you know, scrutiny because it's hard to understand what's it going to really cost for my family. I see your price tag, but is that really what we are going to pay? And that's where if you put good data into the net price calculators, you can usually get a much more accurate sense of this. I think that, again, I would go back to the prior conversation and say, talking with families who have gone through the admission experience prior to you as well has a lot of value. Because there again, you'll hear those type of stories around what they were and were not awarded.

38:48Doesn't mean it's going to be your case in particular. But I think it's a very different story than just what you see on websites or certainly what you see in threads online and down rabbit holes of social media, which you don't want to go. But the bigger thing, though, right now is it is warranted to be asking, what's the value? And I think that for families visiting colleges this fall and in the year ahead, those are good questions to be asking. and a lot of schools like to just say here's the starting salary of our of our students and that's not unhelpful but I hope people ask sort of the next question too which is well what does that mean for students in my major what are some of the companies that are hiring for students who are studying what I'd like to study what does it look like for me to build a network and get mentoring while I'm a college student and how have you been investing in that in recent years Yes, the math and the statistics help.

39:47ROI, dollars invested for dollars returned, starting salaries, mid-career earnings as well, all good and out there. But I think that people asking more specific questions is really important right now more than ever. That's great. And for people who aren't as cool as Lisa and Rick, I Googled it. FUBAR is messed up beyond all recognition. Right. Just if you're wondering and you're not up to speed on the lingo as they are. Rick, I do want to ask about college consultants. Are they worth the high price tag? Is SAT prep paying for it worth it? And if you don't have the money, how can you kind of do this on your own?

40:24Is it possible? Yeah. So I think the answer with college consultants is like almost every other answer in college admission, which is it depends. It depends what the goal is. There are some families who really want some type of an intermediary. They feel like, you know, in order to stay healthy, maybe in their relationship with their student that's applying, they really want somebody to be the one saying the essay is due, the deadline's coming up, you know, have you, have you, have you done X, Y, and Z, and stand in the middle to be a bridge and a conduit for health. And I think in that regard, there can be value, right?

41:13Every family is different in that sense. Where I don't think there's value, and yet where you will see a lot of independent consultants touting, is guaranteeing almost anything. You know, the truth is, as we said earlier, predictability is going down at many schools around the country. And for the schools that are going up in predictability, nobody needs anybody to explain that to them. So I think that it's more about family dynamics than guaranteed outcomes. In my opinion, that's where there can be value in independent consultants and college counselors. When it comes to SATs and ACT, again, And it depends.

41:58The truth is there are some schools where here in the South in particular, there's a number of publics I can think of where literally there's a sliding scale of the amount of money you will receive if you have a certain SAT and GPA. So if it turns out that that's a school that you're really interested in putting in, I'm making up numbers, $2 ,000 for a test prep in order to really get back$8 ,000 additional for four years. So that's a $30 ,000 quote, you know, advantage. And there can be value there. Do you have to do a$2 ,000 SAT prep? No. Every kid is different. Some can do this online and places like Khan Academy and others have amazing resources that are free and they're free.

42:46And that's where we probably need to be to remember the lessons we learned about our own students during the pandemic. I happen to have one of each, one who can absolutely go do this themselves and, and will be proactive. The other who really could probably benefit from somebody facilitating and coaching and guiding. Right. And so that's our job as parents is to know our own kids and to think about what's the best investment here.

43:16Dr. Lisa Damour: Wonderful. Okay. So, Rick, I know this to be true of you. You've demonstrated yet and again. You're so reasonable. You're so practical. You're just so balanced in your approach. Okay, so here's our last question for you. What else can families do to make this whole thing less stressful? So I'll start with parents. my sky banner message, the one that if I could like rent a plane and fly it back and forth across the country, I would say about college admission is that parents of high school students should talk to fewer parents of other high school students about college. And more parents of college or recent college grads.

43:59Because, and we used to do this, like when our kids were little, and we were trying to figure out like how to potty train them or why they're not reading or something. We didn't talk to other parents at the same age. We talked to parents a chapter ahead of us. Right. But somehow we forget this as our kids are in high school. And that only ups the stress and anxiety because my experience, maybe this is just my community. They lie. These other high school, they exaggerate. They take one anecdote and that becomes representative. You know, no kid from our school has ever gotten into Brown or, you know, whatever the sort of trope is.

44:34But then you talk to a parent of a college student or a recent college grad and they say things like, you know what, that school, this school that she loves was never on her list until the very end, or he didn't get into his first choice, but it has been amazing. Like, he doesn't just drink the Kool-Aid, like he sells the Kool-Aid. He's a, he's a tour guy. She has an internship. She's dating a guy we like, you know, and, and, and, and yet like this wasn't anything we could have predicted. And I think that that is, there's so much value, you know, in that. So, so that's one thing I would say to tamp down the anxiety and stress, right.

45:12Talk to other parents of high school students about like the upcoming football game or something else, like how fast neighborhood, you know, um, I would say for, for students, my big thing is, you know, don't apply to a school you wouldn't actually attend. It's really amazing how smart kids do dumb things. And that just makes no sense. Like, you know, the goal should be, let me come up with a group of schools where I am excited. I would be so excited to go there. And if there's 4 ,000 schools in the country and you're applying to 10, you're way more selective than any other school in the country.

45:53You get to narrow that down. And I think if students will adopt a mentality of, I get to do this instead of I have to do this, then it will radically change the way they approach everything. You know, I get to write this essay and tell people about myself. I get to go to this college interview, or I get to, you know, take an SAT, right? I mean, I know that's a scratch. But the bottom line is, let's embrace that this is an opportunity. There's excitement that college admission can actually be more like college itself. It can be a time to learn. It can be a time to ask questions, to do your research, to be open to places you would never expect things to go.

46:37And I mean, I teach class here at Georgia Tech. I employ college students. That's what a good college student does. Like they hypothesize and they are open to different results and they are curious. and instead of being so directed towards it must go this way, let's think like a college student. And here's the question I hear no parent asking and no college admissions expert ever answering. What am I supposed to do with my life after they leave? What am I supposed to do now, Rick? Live, live. I mean, honestly, it's kind of like - Fewer dishes. That's what you're doing. I'll tell you right now.

47:18You're dishes, you're less laundry, you know? Yes, all of it. That's all good. No, but I mean, you know, I think this is where on the student side, people say, and this is unfair. I don't think, and Lisa, I think I've heard you talk about this. People say these are the best four years of your life. And I think that's, A, it's untrue. I hope so. Gosh, that's sad. I hope it's not true. But the truth is they are unique years. They're very unique and special years. And that's great. And I think we can help students by framing it that way a little bit. But yeah, for parents, man, my hope is like, instead of what are we going to do?

47:57It's like, what are all the things we get to do? This is going to be amazing. It's great.

48:03Dr. Lisa Damour: Well, Rick, thank you so much. You are just incredibly, incredibly reassuring and insightful and clear eyed. And we could not be more grateful for your time. Well, it's great to see you both. Thank you so much for the opportunity. Rick Clark from Georgia Tech. The book is called The Truth About College Admissions, A Family Guide to Getting In and Staying Together. And there's a podcast also under that same name. Rick, thank you so much. Thank you. Have a great day. So Lisa, what do you have for us? How do you follow Rick now? I know. That was such great advice. I mean, there's so much. There's so much.

48:38Dr. Lisa Damour: So much. So I'll just choose one little thing that came up when I was working with my older daughter as she was applying to colleges. but I think it could apply for a lot of families. So my kid was really anxious about the process and really driven. There are also kids where the parents feel like they are nudging, nudging, nudging their kid the whole time. What I ended up saying a lot to my daughter is control the controllables. The things that are in your power, do what you can on those and you'll feel fine about how this comes out. And so I could see for a kid who feels anxious, I think that helped her a bit, but I could also see for a kid where the parent's nudging, where they could also say, look, your job is to control the controllables.

49:13Dr. Lisa Damour: A lot of this will be out of your control, but that's our reasonable expectation of your place in this process. So that's one little thing to say. There's so much Rick brought that we could comment on. And, Rena, I can't wait for you to be in this. I know you've still got a little time, but man, we're going to take such good care of you. I know. I am very grateful for you. I'm very grateful. I'm already emotional about all this, but thank you, Lisa. I learned so much from Rick and also from you walking us through all of this. Just so grateful. I'll see you next week. I'll see you next week. Thanks for joining us.

49:49Be sure to subscribe to the Ask Lisa podcast so you get the episodes just as soon as they drop. And send us your questions to asklisa at drlisademore.com. And now a word from our lawyers. The advice provided on this podcast does not constitute or serve as a substitute for professional psychological treatment, therapy, or other types of professional advice or intervention. If you have concerns about your child's well-being, consult a physician or mental health professional. If you're looking for additional resources, check out Lisa's website at drlisademore.com.