290: How to Prevent Failure to Launch | Dr. Mark McConville

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1:04Dr. Mark McConville: so sometimes people ask me if there's like a hack or a trick to connect with teenagers and actually there is um it's just three words take them seriously so you know and i know that as a culture we tend to talk bad about teenagers and teenagers know this and how we talk bad about teenagers. Actually, we have research showing it sort of changes over generations. Sometimes we talk about them like they're buck wild and dangerous. Sometimes we talk about them like they're fragile. But teenagers are acutely aware that however we're doing it, a lot of adults don't take them seriously. And in fact, kind of don't expect them to be the wonderful, interesting, fascinating, complicated people that they are.

1:46Dr. Mark McConville: So if you want to connect to a teenager, the fastest route is to really honor them, to treat them with respect, and to do it just by being interested in them, being curious about them, expecting them to know things you don't, expecting them to have a take on something that you didn't see coming. Given that teenagers are so aware that many adults kind of look down on them or look at them askance, teenagers are equally aware of adults who are interested in them and like them. So when we approach teenagers with respect, when we take them seriously, the odds are really good that they are going to open up to us, that they're going to share themselves with us, that they're going to tell us things that they might not have told us otherwise.

2:34Dr. Mark McConville: Our guest today is one of those people who takes teens seriously and as a result is incredibly good at getting them to open up. He is also a dear friend and colleague and someone who has mentored me over decades. I'm talking about Dr. Mark McConville. He's a clinical psychologist, and he is the author of Failure to Launch, Why Your 20-something Hasn't Grown Up and What to Do About It. Mark, thank you so much for being here.

3:02Lisa Heffernan: Oh, I'm honored to be here, Lisa.

3:05Dr. Mark McConville: I love working with you. Okay, here's our letter. Dear Lisa, there is a great deal of attention paid to the effects of achievement culture and specifically overachieving kids and their parents. My question relates to the other side of the spectrum. My elder child, whose anxiety creates avoidance and underachieving. She has left college and is working, which is hard to accept, if I'm honest. But I am supportive of her finding a path that's right for her. We have expectations for living at home, but it always feels like a slog to get her to take action. She has ADHD and executive functioning challenges and has had every kind of support over the years.

3:48Dr. Mark McConville: But it seems she has no confidence in her academic ability or achievement in general. It sometimes feels like living with a high schooler instead of a young adult. My son is in early high school and doing fine, but he's not particularly lit up. I have wondered if I should have set more expectations to help them become happy, responsible, fulfilled adults. I was on the lower end of the helicoptering spectrum compared to many folks in my circle, and now I wonder if that was the wrong approach. Thanks for your help. Okay, Mark, author of Failure to Launch, this is a lot of the work you do.

4:28Lisa Heffernan: Right, it is. and I can tell just from the first year reading, this is a very thoughtful parent, right? This is someone that, you know, I sometimes sort parents into projectors and reflectors and the projectors are looking for who to blame. My kid isn't exactly the way I had envisioned or hoped for. Who messed this up? Is it the kid's problem? Was it the school's problem? Maybe it was the therapist's problem, right? But this parent looks at herself and says, what could or should I have done differently. And to me, the interesting thing is, if she had in fact been more of a helicopter parent and was dealing with the same outcome, she'd be saying, maybe I should have been a little more laissez-faire and not so involved, right?

5:15Lisa Heffernan: She's looking for what's the form of parenting that I didn't do.

5:18Dr. Mark McConville: Maybe it was my intrusiveness that has caused my child to not have. I love that observation. And it feels to me, you know, I remember when I was in my training where somebody said to me, you can't be a clinician with 20 years experience until you're a clinician with 20 years experience, right? Now, you and I both have many more miles in clinician work. You more than me, which is, you're one of my favorite colleagues and mentors. But what you just shared feels so informed by having watched families over years and years and

5:50Lisa Heffernan: years. You know, I think most of us, when we first had children, said, I'm going to get it right. Right? I know what my parents were, they kind of missed the target. I'm going to do it perfectly. And there is no better cure for perfectionism than parenting.

6:09Dr. Mark McConville: Nothing so humbling as actually having actual children.

6:13Lisa Heffernan: Parenting is, by its nature, it's imperfect. Yeah. Right.

6:18Dr. Mark McConville: Okay. So you've got reflectors who come to you. Families like this one, moms, dads, who are like, where did we go wrong? You and I are going to tease apart what we can from the information in this letter. But to rest for a minute, what are they feeling? Like, what are the emotions they themselves are grappling with, the adults in this picture?

6:39Lisa Heffernan: Yeah. Well, certainly disappointment. I wanted something different for my kid. In one sense, it's an expression of love. Like this is what I, when I see my kids or my grandkids thriving, excelling, doing something, I just, I feel like that's my reason for being on this earth, right? That's what makes it all meaningful. And if we flip that over and I see my child or grandchild struggling, I think it's just a deep ache. And I think that ache is an expression of the fact that I love these children. And I think that's what it means for this woman, that she deeply loves her children. She took the time to write you.

7:21Lisa Heffernan: I know, right?

7:22Dr. Mark McConville: I mean, to send it in, like, help. Is envy ever on the table?

7:28Lisa Heffernan: Yeah, it can be, you know, which is sort of one of the worst hallmarks of parenting. Like, as if this were a competitive sport, right? Or using my kids' college acceptance as somehow the grade report on what sort of a job I've done parenting. And it is, I think, with a little more empathy, I could say, if you have a child that's struggling and the people in your social circle, people in your work life have children that are thriving, it is hard. It's like having that kind of rubbed in your face. And I think that just can be very difficult. I certainly have many parents who will bring that point up that they feel when their friends or relatives say, well, how is so-and-so doing?

8:16Lisa Heffernan: And it's hard to say, well, she dropped out of college and now is working in a coffee shop.

8:23Dr. Mark McConville: Yeah. And it feels like it gets us into territory of feelings we don't like to talk about or own. Like, I'm envious of the kids who are thriving or their families, or I feel embarrassed about my kid being home.

8:38Lisa Heffernan: Yeah. I think when kids struggle, it's as if shame is intrinsic to the situation. Right? It's just, it's built in. And now some parents process the shame by converting it into blame. Either my spouse or the therapist or the teacher let my child down, or my child is letting me down. And others do more of what I think this mom is doing, which is they feel somehow this is a reflection on me not having done my job the right way. And I am embarrassed. I am ashamed about it.

9:12Dr. Mark McConville: Yeah. I think it's helpful to just, like, say the words, right, to acknowledge that these are the feelings that are circulating in these moments.

9:19Lisa Heffernan: I think that's the antidote for shame is to share with another person. Yep, right in the light. To see that you don't look down your nose at me, that you don't condemn me, but you're more accepting of what I'm feeling and how I've performed, and that I'm not the only person in the world who has a child who's struggling.

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10:47Lisa Heffernan: So I was out for a walk with a friend and I heard myself say to her, I feel like my

10:51Dr. Mark McConville: head's going to explode. And what I was describing is what it feels like to try to get the school year started and to keep track of it all, like who's doing what and where and who needs a ride and all of that. It's a lot. So to try to sort this out, I turned to Skylight Calendar. Now, this is a really smart all-in-one digital calendar that syncs seamlessly. With Google Calendar and Apple Calendar, your happiness is Skylight's happiness. So if in four months you're not 100 % thrilled with your purchase, you can return it for a full refund, like no questions asked. Families are better when they're working together.

11:27Dr. Mark McConville: Right now, Skylight is offering our listeners$30 off their 15-inch calendars by going to myskylight.com slash asklisa. Go to myskylight.com slash asklisa for$30 off your 15-inch calendar. That is M-Y-S-K-Y-L-I-G-H-T dot com slash AskLisa. Okay, as I was reading the letter and I could look at you, I could see your mind, the Rolodex running, right, of all the families you've cared for and all of the versions of this story. So starting with the daughter who's home from college, is that Rolodex kind of spun? Like what comes to the top?

12:13Lisa Heffernan: Yeah, it's so interesting. The first thing I thought was this isn't so bad. Okay. Right? When kids leave college, they decide to leave or they're put on probation or whatever, what they don't often, what they don't get, and this is a counsel I give to parents so often, is that you're going to present to your child if you're not a student, and I'm going to guess that this child is maybe 19 or 20 or 21 years old, then what you have chosen to do or what has just come about is you are now a member of the adult world. You can't swim backwards. You can't go back into adolescence. So if you're not in school preparing for adult life, then you need to be working, which is also a way of preparing for adult life.

13:00Lisa Heffernan: So in the letter, she says that she's working. And I think, well, that already makes her ahead of probably 65 or 70 percent of the families that I consult with about failure to launch where the child is not doing something constructive.

13:15Dr. Mark McConville: Okay. Is at home, hanging out, hanging out with friends.

13:19Lisa Heffernan: I can't find a job. I'm doing DoorDash twice a week so that I can, you know, pay for my weed or, you know. Okay.

13:27Dr. Mark McConville: We're going to come back to the weed because I think that is sometimes, if not often, part of the story. So putting a pin in that, we will come back to that. Okay, so this girl's working. What about, I'm so curious about your take on this, where the parent says, it feels like living with a high schooler. Talk me through, like, where does the Rolodex take you on that?

13:50Lisa Heffernan: Well, first of all, that feels so common, right? Because she almost is a high schooler. And while I can say when you're 20 years old and you leave college, you are now an adult, that's really aspirational, right? Because the research on, I'm thinking of Jeffrey Arnett's research, how long does it take to become an adult, right? And he has this wonderful questionnaire that he's given to tens of thousands of young people between the ages of 18 and 30 from around the world. And one of the questions is, I feel like an adult. And then he gives the five-point scale. Hardly ever. Some of the time. Half of the time.

14:30Lisa Heffernan: Much of the time. Most of the time. And this is probably my favorite statistic in all of behavioral science. It's not until 26 and a half years old that half of his subjects reported feeling like an adult half of the time.

14:46Dr. Mark McConville: That's such a great yardstick of like where your kid should be no matter what. That's right.

14:54Lisa Heffernan: So this kid's got a lot of room to grow.

14:56Dr. Mark McConville: Okay.

14:57Lisa Heffernan: And I think realistically in today's world, very different from say when you grew up, certainly when I grew up, where at 18 you might be expected to leave home. If you didn't go to college, you'd go maybe work in a factory or a steel mill or something and make a good, actually a living wage. So you were treated like an adult and the societal expectations were there from a very early age. When I graduated from college, the average age of marriage was 22 for men, 20 for women.

15:30Dr. Mark McConville: Wow.

15:30Lisa Heffernan: And now it's over 30 for men and it's approaching 30 for women. So the process of growing up is just a much longer process. And there are all kinds of reasons for that.

15:41Dr. Mark McConville: Economic, all sorts of things. Economic, yeah.

15:43Lisa Heffernan: It takes much more education to sort of get a foothold in the adult work world.

15:47Dr. Mark McConville: Yeah.

15:48Lisa Heffernan: So.

15:48Dr. Mark McConville: Okay. So to go back to, I think there's so much you've said already that I just want to like, you know, put in neon lights. But just that this isn't that bad. This isn't that bad. She's home. She's got a job. And, yeah, she is kind of like a high schooler. Sure.

16:07Lisa Heffernan: And, in fact, you know, if your kid graduated from college cum laude and they've got a job, but they're coming home maybe for a couple of weeks over Christmas or something, there's a pretty good chance that by the end of that vacation, you're going to have a teenager again.

16:24Dr. Mark McConville: Well, okay. So one of the best things somebody ever taught me is we all regress around our parents.

16:29Lisa Heffernan: That's exactly right.

16:30Dr. Mark McConville: And I'm 56. I regress around my parents. That's right. Like there's no getting around it.

16:35Lisa Heffernan: I once had a 40-year-old who had three kids visits mom for Thanksgiving, right, and says, I walk in the door and she says, don't forget to wipe your feet. And he said, it took me 20 minutes to feel like a teenager again.

16:49Dr. Mark McConville: Yeah. So, yeah, I think that's really, that's very true. Gets you right back there.

16:52Lisa Heffernan: But could I address the issue, though? So you've got this functionally, a teenager living at home. The thing that I always look at when I speak with a parent like this is how is your parenting the parenting of a teenager? Because parenting evolves. You don't parent a 24-year-old the same way you parent a 9-year-old. And there is a kind of natural history and evolution to how we sort our relationship out. And so she moves home, comes back from school. Of course, she goes back to the old paradigm, which is I'll put my dishes into the dishwasher every other time you remind me and only after you remind me three times because those were the functional ground rules when I was 16.

17:43Dr. Mark McConville: Yeah, what's for dinner and why is there nothing in the refrigerator? Right?

17:46Lisa Heffernan: Like that kind of stuff.

17:47Dr. Mark McConville: Right.

17:48Lisa Heffernan: So a lot of the work I do with this kind of parent is around how do we upgrade the paradigm of your relationship? How do we introduce the notion not that you're my child and it is my obligation to care for you, whether I like it or not, and however you behave. That's the old paradigm. To a new paradigm is, well, we're housemates now.

18:12Dr. Mark McConville: Yeah. We live together. We're a roommate. We're housemates.

18:15Lisa Heffernan: And that means we need to do some negotiating. We need to sit down and see, what do you expect from me? What do I expect from you?

18:23Dr. Mark McConville: What nights are you making dinner?

18:25Lisa Heffernan: Right? Things like that. Truly. Truly. Exactly.

18:30Dr. Mark McConville: There's a line in here about executive function and ADHD, and we did everything. What comes to the top for you when you hear something like that?

18:41Lisa Heffernan: Well, when I heard that, my first thought was, well, what do you mean by everything? And we can only guess that there was maybe some attention in school, maybe a learning plan at school. Maybe there was an executive function coach. I mean, I sort of wonder what are the things. And, you know, ADHD is such a vast and complex terrain, right? And it doesn't mean just one thing. Right. It looks so different across kids. It looks different. And so the first question I have when I encounter an ADHD kid who is a student or is struggling with being a student is how do they feel about the whole business of learning?

19:23Right.

19:23Lisa Heffernan: And there are some who are, they plug away and, you know, I know I have trouble organizing and I know my time management is poor and I'm receptive to coaching and I keep a planner. And, you know, there are those kids. I'm doing all the things that people tell me to do. Those kids are heroic. I love those kids. But those are not typically the ones that come to me. We don't see them in our offices.

19:45Dr. Mark McConville: For health. I'm actually going to pause just for a minute on the word heroic. I share your admiration for these kids because I think about how hard it is to do school when you like school and it comes to you easily and you're getting rewards all around in terms of praise and grades and all that. That any child to whom this does not come easily and who is well aware that it is coming easier to everyone or lots of the kids around them, that they continue to show up and put forward effort. I'm like, this is a daily miracle that we do not talk enough about.

20:24Lisa Heffernan: I completely agree. And I think the word heroic is very apt for those kids. Yeah. But I'm thinking about the kid who maybe isn't so heroic. And I try to put myself in that kid's shoes. I'm seven years old. I'm eight. I'm nine. I'm 10 years old. And I'm in a classroom. And if I have ADHD, it means my attending, particularly to things that are not very interesting, is difficult. My mind wanders. I get distracted by all kinds of things. And so the classroom becomes, for many of those kids, kind of a dangerous place. Right? So, you know, the teacher says, Mark, would you read the next paragraph? And I have no idea.

21:08Dr. Mark McConville: You don't even know what book.

21:09Lisa Heffernan: I don't know. Yeah. And so it's an opportunity for immediate embarrassment, right? Talk about shame. My favorite is, all right, everyone, hand in your essay. And I'm like, essay? When did that get assigned? So those kids, often what they develop instead of that heroic, I'm going to plug ahead, is kind of a chip on their shoulder. It feels like teachers pick on me, and some teachers do. These are kids that often you'll hear, oh, he had such a good year in fourth grade. Fifth grade's been a disaster. Well, the teacher in fourth grade was open-minded and compassionate. And the teacher in fifth grade is a bit more of a stickler for playing by the book.

21:57Lisa Heffernan: And for that kid, then that becomes this opportunity for embarrassment and humiliation.

22:02Dr. Mark McConville: And they tank. And you and I have both seen it. Yeah. Okay. Okay, so not knowing much of the details of what were the interventions, how effective were they, you know, why did they not work the way maybe this adult, the parent was hoping. I'm going to ask you a question that's unfair, but I think is going to be on a lot of parents' minds in these moments. Should the parent in this situation be trying to get this girl back into college?

22:35Lisa Heffernan: Well, the answer to that depends on where is the kid with that. If this is a kid that's saying, I really, I do want to return to school. I want to find some way to do it. Then the parent's role is how can we, how do we support that? How do we help you get the requisite skills? But if this is a kid who right now at whatever, 19, 20, 21 is saying, I'm done with school. I think, in fact, this mom said, I try to be supportive. And I think I loved hearing that because she clearly has values as a parent, as a person about education. She's disappointed that her daughter has left school. And yet she says, I'm going to be supportive.

23:17Lisa Heffernan: That in the parenting department deserves to be called heroic.

23:21Dr. Mark McConville: Yes.

23:21Lisa Heffernan: So it really depends on, does going back to school, is it something that appeals to this child? Is it anathema that's something that she dreads? And that's really looking for what is this kid interested in?

23:34Dr. Mark McConville: Yeah.

23:34Lisa Heffernan: Right?

23:35Dr. Mark McConville: Because you and I both know in these situations, at the end of the day, the kid actually does hold all the power.

23:42Lisa Heffernan: Absolutely.

23:43Dr. Mark McConville: So if by some magic the parents can override a kid who doesn't want to go to college and get them back in there, this is not going to go well.

23:52Lisa Heffernan: Right. In fact, I sometimes think of that. But if you take a 20-year-old and you get them to develop and grow up by your agenda, the parents' agenda, rather than their own agenda, what you may be setting up is a midlife crisis. Because those are the people that come to us in their late 40s to late 50s and say, I'm waking up and looking at this one life that I have to live, and why am I doing X? I didn't even really want to do X. I never wanted this. But I was coached to do it, and I didn't quite know what I wanted to do. I mean, who among us did know what to do at age 20? Right. So I love this, right?

24:35Dr. Mark McConville: So what you're saying is if the girl is saying, I want to go back, then the next path is, okay, let's figure out what went wrong. Right, exactly. And address it head on. If the girl is not there, there is a lot of downside to trying to be the adult who's pushing that forward. Absolutely.

24:57Lisa Heffernan: I completely agree. And you and I see the fallout from that. They come right back, usually.

25:04Dr. Mark McConville: And with more damage done to their record and their ability to move forward academically. That's right. Okay. so about 10 years ago it became clear that my previously excellent eyesight had declined and I needed glasses and not just glasses but actually progressives which of course is a euphemism for bifocals which is what I wear what I love about Warby Parker is they have tons of options and they're all really cool looking and they are reasonably priced their prescription and glasses start at$95. So you can actually get really stylish frames at a totally reasonable price point. Now they don't just have incredible prescription glasses.

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27:25Lisa Heffernan: Let's talk about weed.

27:26Dr. Mark McConville: Yeah. We could do, and maybe we will do, a whole episode on this. How and when do you bring it up? Or how do you think about it in pictures like this, in stories like this, as a clinician? Like, where do you fit it in?

27:45Lisa Heffernan: Well, usually in a situation like this, parents will bring that information. They may say, well, we're not sure if she's still smoking. They may be uncertain about the picture, but typically they have some idea of what the history has been, whether that's been part of the picture. With kids, some are willing to talk about it. This generation of pot smokers feels very self-justified. You know, they have bought the whole kind of aura or myth that this is, it's medical for heaven's sakes. It's natural. Yeah. It grows in nature. So how could it possibly be harmful?

28:24Dr. Mark McConville: Yeah.

28:24Lisa Heffernan: Right.

28:25Dr. Mark McConville: One thing I remember learning from you in our conversations is that you know a kid is using weed, and maybe other things, but certainly weed, if you feel like you're on a merry-go-round. Yeah. Right? That you have the conversation, you're, feels like you're connected and made progress.

28:44Lisa Heffernan: Nothing changes.

28:45Dr. Mark McConville: And then nothing changes and you're back having that same conversation again and again and again. Yeah. The other thing is, and I used to see many more teenagers than I do today,

28:57Lisa Heffernan: and I often thought when I would be talking with a committed pot smoker, started smoking at 13 or 14, but now is 18 or 19, I think if I were blind and I didn't know, I would say, this is a 14-year-old. Just the complexity of cognition, the maturity of the emotional life would very much resemble, and I'm not saying this is true of all pot smokers. Some people tolerate better than others, but often it does put a stall on cognitive and emotional development.

29:28Dr. Mark McConville: Yeah. And I think we know that both from straight up neurological impact. And I'm not an expert in the addiction world, but I know that there's a sense too that if you're always turning to substances to feel better, you don't get the maturation that comes from working through hard things. And so there is a stalling out that isn't good. But if the kid doesn't bring it up, if the parent doesn't bring it up, and with your, you know, kind of scooby sense of years of training and practice, you're like, I got a question about this. How do you bring it up? Where does it come from?

30:03Lisa Heffernan: Well, again, with today's generation, it's much easier than it was, say, 20 or 30 years ago where you really had to be crafty. You know, 20 or 30 years ago, I'd say something like. So at your school, how widespread is pot use? So I'm really saying, tell me what you know about pot so I can kind of read between the lines. But I ask the question in a way that doesn't put you on the defense.

30:26Dr. Mark McConville: Give me a sense of your fluency on this topic. Exactly.

30:30Lisa Heffernan: But today I'm much more straightforward. Like, do you smoke pot? You know, tell me a little bit about that. Where has that been in your life? Kids today just seem they're much more willing. Not all, but much more frequently they're open or candid about it. And as I say, they tend to be self-justifying, right? They have sort of put together a story that makes it harmless and justified. And you don't realize, you adults, you don't realize this is actually helping me.

31:01Dr. Mark McConville: Okay. So when you are sure it's not, how do you know and what do you do?

31:11Lisa Heffernan: You know the concept of motivational interviewing? asking I've actually got a lot of things to say to you but every it's all going to be framed as a question right do you see any relationship between your pot smoking and what's happened to your grades over the last two semesters I'm just curious so yeah but you don't think you don't see any connection but your parents seem to think there's so tell me how do you debate with them I'd love to hear your side of the debate right and then what this is again more with younger teens where I would say things like, look, your parents think that I can talk you out of pot smoking.

31:50Lisa Heffernan: You and I both know that that's BS. I have no such power. Right? You know that, and I know that. That whether or not you smoke pot is going to be your decision. So what I do is I concede the power struggle right from the beginning. Right? And then I'll roll it into, you know, that doesn't mean that you can't tell me what you have learned. Maybe websites you've gone to or videos you've seen. I mean, I would love to see them. And I'd love an opportunity to tell you what I've learned from my standpoint as a psychologist. And I'm sure these two viewpoints are not going to agree. And they don't need to agree.

32:28Lisa Heffernan: Because what I'm really shooting for is that when that individual leaves the conversation, there's a wheel turning up here that was not turning before.

32:38Dr. Mark McConville: Yep. Yep. I'll tell you how I do it. It's so fun to like compare clinical notes. So over the years, as you have, you know, kids end up in our practices because they got really drunk at a party and things went terribly wrong and it was very bad. And they were like, okay, whatever else, you're going to go see somebody. And I learned years ago not to say, how much do you drink? Under what conditions? Where? You know, because I feel like it's saying lie to me on this and then also this and also that's right. So I will say to the kids in those situations, are you worried about your drinking? Yeah. and I'm surprised how often a kid will say, actually, I am, and then we're in good shape.

33:19Dr. Mark McConville: But sometimes kids will say, no, I'm not worried about my drinking, and I'll say, okay, I'm just getting to know you. Let's keep this conversation open, and if I have worries about your drinking, I'm going to tell you. I'm going to tell you.

33:34Lisa Heffernan: So I love the difference between those two approaches, the interrogation, right? Forget it, versus there's an implicit respect for the kid's agency. I'm asking you for your assessment. I'm asking you to inform me, right? And, you know, teenagers in particular have a lifetime of not being quite taken seriously by adults, right? So every interaction is implicitly hierarchical. And what you're trying to do is sell them on a new possibility. I like to say, and now we're talking more about teens than kids dropping out of college, that that 16-year-old and I are existential equals. There are many things I know about life that he or she doesn't have a clue about, but there are an awful lot of things that he or she knows about that I, frankly, am clueless about.

34:26Lisa Heffernan: And it's really coming at it. And, you know, kids, especially in high school, high school students will tell you after two classes which teachers treat us like grown-ups and which teachers treat us like children. So their antennae are just tingling about that. And I think it is for exactly the reason you said.

34:47Dr. Mark McConville: We look down on them, we talk bad about them, we talk bad about them right in front of them. Right in front of teenagers, people will be like, teenagers. You can't be like, women, right in front of women. You can't do this with any group except for we do it with teenagers. And so I do think you and I have shared the delight of how quickly we can establish we're not one of those adults and how rare that is for adolescents.

35:12Lisa Heffernan: And with people that work with teens, I think that is the cornerstone skill for everything else.

35:19Dr. Mark McConville: All right. So what about this boy who's not lit up? Early high school.

35:25Lisa Heffernan: What do you make of that? Yeah, you know, of course, my first thought was, what does lit up mean? I'm going to assume it has something to do with motivation.

35:34Dr. Mark McConville: Yeah.

35:35Lisa Heffernan: And because she's concerned about the daughter's academic development, I'm going to make that assumption, too, that he's not a terribly committed student. It's really interesting. Let me tell a story that, to me, displays what I think is the ideal approach. My daughter and son-in-law have four girls, right? And one of the girls, when she was in, I think, sixth grade, sixth or seventh grade, they got the email or the whatever, the notification from the advisor that said, you know, she's behind on this many assignments. And I wasn't there to witness it, but my daughter described the conversation between the dad and the daughter.

36:20Lisa Heffernan: And he sat down with her, like took her into his office and just said, you know, showed the email from the, and said, what's this? She fumbled and blah, blah, blah, didn't have much to say. And then he, it was absolutely calm and said, we don't do this. In this family, everyone has a job. I have a job. Your mom has a job. You have a job and your job is being a student. and I expect you to do your job. That kid is now a junior in high school and is an exemplary student. And what I loved about that is it's so, like I'm not going to parent you about this. This value around education is deeply embedded in the family culture such that there aren't even rules about it.

37:14Dr. Mark McConville: It's just assumed.

37:15Lisa Heffernan: Yeah. Yeah. I'll tell you another place I learned this about parenting. I was once consulting at a Orthodox Jewish school, and I was in a room with three rabbis. And the problem they were presenting to me is that the kids, these were seventh and eighth graders, are becoming disrespectful. And they wanted to work out a system of rules and expectations and consequences. That's what they, and they thought I was the guy to have them do that. And so I said to them at one point, well, tell me, what's the consequence for a boy who refuses to wear his yarmulke, his skullcap? And the three of them side-eyed each other, like, oh, my goodness, they had no idea how ignorant I was.

38:00Lisa Heffernan: And one of them cleared his throat and said, doctor, that wouldn't happen here. And I said, and why is that? Why is that? Well, it's just not who we are. I said, precisely. So what we're talking about, that more deeply embedded culture of school values, community values, family values, right? And so that's, I would want to know from this mom, how is that conveyed, right? How is that conveyed? Is it conveyed in a way that says to this kid, this is your job? These are the expectations. You don't have to love it. You know? But we're clear.

38:43Dr. Mark McConville: Yeah. No, I mean, it's, you know, the twin finding that kids need two things, warmth and structure. Right? And I think that there's a lot of warmth in this letter, a lot of love. And I think the question you're calling is, what are the structures?

38:56Lisa Heffernan: Where's the structure?

38:56Dr. Mark McConville: What are they? How clearly are they communicated?

38:59Lisa Heffernan: Yeah.

38:59Dr. Mark McConville: What's being shared?

39:00Lisa Heffernan: When kids are, when it's more, you know, the kid is really kind of actively like, this is stupid. I don't want to do this homework. I think, you know, that you can set up consequences, but again, around a rational principle as opposed to punishment. And the rational principle might be something like, look, I go to work and going to work gives me a paycheck. That's how we can take a vacation every summer. It's why I can stay home on the weekend and watch the football game and take you guys out to dinner. Your job is to be a student. Now, you don't get a paycheck, but you do get certain privileges.

39:38Like on the weekend, you love to use your Xbox.

39:42Lisa Heffernan: Yeah. I want you to be able to use your Xbox. That's your paycheck, buddy. Yeah. Right? And like I didn't invent these rules. These are the rules of life. This isn't me punishing you. This is me introducing you to the rules of how life works. Your job is to be a student. If you choose not to do it, I guess there's not a lot I can do about that. But you're not getting a paycheck at the end of the week.

40:03Dr. Mark McConville: Thinking about the son, you and I both can imagine that the parent's anxieties are heightened by the daughter having come home. Is that good? Is that not so great? Is it neutral? What do you make of it?

40:20Lisa Heffernan: Well, you know, anxiety can be a great disruptor and it can be a great motivator, right? And so if this woman were sitting in my office, I would try to convert that anxiety into something constructive. How can you be supportive of this kid? How can you convey the value of education? Is he open to getting support? Would it help him to have a tutor or something of that nature? I would look to turn the anxiety into problem solving. I would also point out that, look, the parenting that is just wizardry with this child is a complete disaster with the next child. Isn't that the truth? Right? So you just have to take each child as if they were just who they are.

41:02Lisa Heffernan: I mean, ideally. Obviously, we don't. We parent, and we sometimes parent en masse. Yes. We address the whole tribe. But take them as they call them. Yeah. All right, as we start to wrap up and think back on this conversation,

41:16Dr. Mark McConville: what are the big takeaways? What do you want to leave people with?

41:23Lisa Heffernan: Well, one of the things that just jumps out at me is the ADHD, And I have a particular interest because while that diagnosis didn't exist when I was growing up, I'd have been ADD cum laude. I was that kind of profoundly distractible, fairly creative, but very distractible kid. So it's something I've paid a lot of attention to. And I think so often when parents or the kid presents that, there is this saturation with shame. There's something flawed and defective here. right and so you're bringing in this disability which you may or may not be inclined to do and so i have a riff that that i give often that really addresses that and and it goes something like this look you know some brains were made for the classroom your brain was made for the real world in fact if this were 200 years ago we wouldn't be sitting here talking you would have just gravitated towards something that you were talented in and you would have found a way to do that and you would have been cherished and rewarded and respected for that.

42:31Lisa Heffernan: Unfortunately, you live in an era where everybody has to go through this formal school system.

42:36Dr. Mark McConville: Yeah. I love that way of speaking to them, right? I think a lot about school is designed for and rewards a very narrow band of skills. Mark, thank you so much for being with me.

42:48Lisa Heffernan: Well, it's been a real pleasure. I always love spending time with you, Lisa. Thank you.

42:56Dr. Mark McConville: So for parenting to go, I want to highlight something pretty remarkable from this conversation about managing teens' behavior. Mark did two things at once that seem like they're in opposition, but actually work well together. The first is, and I think his language was, is he ceded his power on certain things. And that is something we need to do as adults caring for teenagers. Teenagers can do all sorts of things that we cannot prevent them from doing, whether it's messing up in school or smoking weed or whatever, we can't control teenagers entirely. And so there's value in ceding one's power on that point and not getting into a power struggle.

43:38Dr. Mark McConville: But side by side with that, Mark also talked about using consequences to respond to the choices that teenagers make. They don't have to turn their work in at school. We can't make them do it. But if they don't, they won't enjoy certain privileges, such as playing video games on the weekend or whatever it is they want to do. So it's this beautiful tension of both honoring the teen's autonomy. They can do as they please. They really can. While simultaneously creating structures around them, holding them to high expectations and making it clear, this is how our home works. This is how the whole world works.

44:14Dr. Mark McConville: And we're going to keep this tension in place while you figure it out. Join me next week for a conversation with Michelle Eichard, the author of three fantastic books about middle schoolers. She and I are going to answer a question together from a parent who writes in because the parent's daughter is being iced out of a friend group. And to make things even worse, the parent is friends with the parents of the kids who are doing the icing. So this is not an easy situation. I'll see you next week. Thanks for joining us. Be sure to subscribe to the Ask Lisa podcast so you get episodes just as soon as they drop.

44:52Dr. Mark McConville: And send us your questions to asklisa at drlisademore.com. And now, a word from our lawyers. The information provided on this podcast is for educational purposes only and does not constitute or substitute for professional psychological treatment, therapy, medical advice, or other professional intervention. views expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of dr lisa demore or ask lisa if you have concerns about your child's well-being or your own please consult a physician or mental health professional if you or someone you know is in crisis contact the 988 suicide and crisis lifeline by calling or texting 988 for additional resources visit drlisa demore dot com.