Former American CEO Doug Parker On Breaking Down Barriers

0:09Hello, everyone, and thank you for joining Window Seat, our Aviation Week Air Transport podcast. I'm ATW and Aviation Week Air Transport Editor-in-Chief, Karen Walker. Welcome on board. Now, this week, I am absolutely delighted to be joined by two extraordinary people with long legacies in the air transport industry. and they are Doug and Gwen Parker, who are joining me from their Texas home. Gwen, Doug, welcome and thank you so much for joining Window Seat. Thank you. Thanks, Karen. Thank you for having us. You're very welcome. Now, Doug, of course, is the former chairman and CEO of American Airlines, from where he retired after a 35-year career in the industry that included being CEO at America West, from where he oversaw the mergers, first with US Airways and then with American.

0:58As you'll hear in a minute, he is far from sitting still and remains very connected to the industry, sitting on the boards of Qantas Airways and Lesser Aircap. Gwen is a philanthropic leader and a former flight attendant at American who actively contributes to multiple non-profit organizations. and together they have founded an aviation non-profit called Breaking Down Barriers and that's going to be the main focus of our conversation today. Before we start, however, I must also add an important detail. Doug has been named the 2026 recipient of the Elle Welsh POG Award which honours leaders who have helped shape and transform the air transport industry and that is certainly true of Doug.

1:46So I offer, first and foremost, my sincere congratulations. That award will be presented on September 10th in Washington, D.C. at a gala co-hosted by the International Aviation Club of Washington and Aviation Week. So, Gwen, Doug, let's start with you both telling us a little bit about this Breaking Down Barriers Foundation. When did you start this? Why and what are the key goals? Thanks, Karen. I mean, the key goal is to help people, underrepresented individuals become airline violence. And we believe if we do that, it'll be more than just transformative their lives, but to their communities.

2:27So let me explain a little more where, you know, you ask where it worked, the genesis of it was. And for me, it was, you know, my last couple of years at American, we had this pilot shortage. And for real, honestly, for the first time in my career, I really had to do a better job of understanding how pilots were produced. For the most part, they showed up at our airlines and we tried to get the best of the best of those who applied. We suddenly didn't have, you know, enough in the pipeline. And it led to, you know, me learning more about it. What I learned was it's, of course, it's very hard as it should be, but it's also, we exclude a lot of people from the process.

3:05There are barriers in our way, primarily because of the cost. It's unlike a four-year education. There's no federal loan program where you can go get the costs of your pilot training funded. And it's really, it's pretty expensive. I mean, it's$100 ,000 about just to get through your training. And you got to go build hours, but just to get your certificates. and the training can run up to$100 ,000. So as you might imagine, that excludes a lot of people and it excludes a whole class of socioeconomics that results in another barrier, which is awareness. I mean, people in these communities don't even know this might be a possibility, something they could do because they don't see anybody in the dozen.

3:46So what we're, and look, and as long as that's the case, it's always going to be the case. I mean, there was nothing, you know, the airlines are trying to do things and doing really good things, by the way, to make it easier for people to afford it, but they still have to know it exists. And they've got to get themselves up to where they already have a private pilot's license and things like this that the people we're talking to would never have any ability to do that because they wouldn't know it was possible. So it's about awareness and it's about providing the financial resources. And that's what we're doing.

4:16And we're off and running. We've been doing it for the time I retired. We established a foundation. We hired this amazing woman who was running United's AVA program named Dan Donati to be our CEO. And, you know, that's the story. And a lot more to come, but so far so good. Gwen, can I just ask you, again, you've got, you know, you've got firsthand experience, long experience in airline operations, and you see that front line. And you've also been long involved in a lot of nonprofits. You know, I mean, let's not give Doug all the credit. you know what what what what was your thinking when you were looking at creating this what what were your what was driving you well so for me it's a it's about the community the community that these kids are coming from the community that they love and will stay in and the exciting part to me is that, you know, these students will go back into their community.

5:21They're going to have a thriving career that will create generational wealth. And I believe that you get enough people like that in an underserved community, well, that community gets uplifted and the schools get better. amenities in the community become more prevalent. And I just feel like it's bigger than being a pilot. That's a very interesting statement. How much of a need is there still to grow the commercial airline pilot pool in the US and beyond? Well, there's always going to be a need because of retirements and growth. But that shortage largely has gone away at this point. There's not the same efforts underway.

6:10And look, when that story I talked about, we knew back then we were going to find the pilots. What Gwen and I are doing isn't about creating more people that can be pilots. It's getting the best of the best. You can't get the best of the best if some people are excluded. So it's about increasing. It's about letting those, we don't have the opportunity, have the opportunity. They got to do all the work, of course. But yeah, this is much less of actually not at all about trying to help airlines have pilots. They can find pilots. This is about making sure that everyone that has the ability to do it and the desire to do it has the opportunity to do it.

6:48Right. So you mentioned Dana. Dana's your CEO, correct? Yes. And I believe Dana is going to be at the Pogue Gala next week. So it's going to be fantastic to meet her and hear her story, too. But can you just tell us a little bit about the rest of your leadership team and partners for this organization? Sure. We are lean and mean. Dana is our CEO and she's everything else. She really is just phenomenal. I'm looking forward to getting to know her. So she does it all. She doesn't have an office. She works anywhere. She works anywhere, exactly. we've um we have uh recruited we have one employee who is one of our students who is now a certified flight instructor so but now he's he's got he's gotten through his training and he's building his hours and we're he's helping us as he does that so we have another employee but this is them that's the team really we have a bevy of volunteers of airlines airline pilots who are gracious enough and care enough about this that they just volunteer their time and they help these students through the process.

7:58They're mentors. Yeah, mentors. Sorry. So and they're anyway, they can't stress how important that is for these individuals who know really nothing about this process and haven't grown up with it. To have somebody, you know, again, can't do the work for them by any means, but can help explain it to them and can answer questions for them. So we have we have a lot of mentors, primarily pilots from major airlines. We have on our board some people you would know. I recruited Elise Everwine. Elise, yes. And Maya Liebman, two of my former colleagues at American, who also have a passion for this, are on our board.

8:37You may remember the flight attendant that I had the encounter with on Southwest Airlines flight, Jacare Hill Sullivan. She's on our board. She's fantastic. Just other board members who have run nonprofits in the community are helpful to us. Partners, we have flight schools, Spartan Flight Academy out here in Grand Prairie, Parish Aviation at Dallas Executive, Texas Women's University. So we don't do the training. Those places do the training. We fund the training. We fund 100 % of it, by the way. I mean, these students have to figure out how to live on their own while they're doing all this work.

9:15But we fund that$100 ,000 for each of the individuals. Wow, that's an amazing thing to be able to offer. Just talk, as you say, it's an expensive business and this organization has barriers in the name. And certainly money is a big barrier when it's$100 ,000. Can I also ask, is diversity an issue that you're also trying to, you know, I'll be honest. You know, I fly a lot. You know, I do. And there's still a lot of there's nothing wrong here. They're great pilots, but there's a lot of, shall we say, you know, white male pilots out there. Is diversity an issue as well that you're trying to transcend?

10:01Well, yeah, in some sense, again, I'll go back to it's more about socioeconomics. So it's more about the ability to pay. That, of course, lends itself to, you know, some diversity. and just because of the socioeconomics of our country. So, but it's less about that, Karen. Our criteria are these for, although I do think that diversity is really important, I don't want to dismiss it, but our criteria are for finding candidates are, first, you could not possibly do this without us. This is just not something you would ever be able to do without breaking down barriers. And that excludes a lot of people A lot of people want to be pilots, but they can figure out their way through the process over time.

10:45They have means and they'll figure it out. So that matters. Second, of course, you have to be able to do it. You have to be able to. This is a really difficult job as a reason that it's that there aren't a lot of people that do it. It's because it takes a lot of training. You have to be intelligent. You have to have the right mentality. So we have a couple of tests that we give individuals that Dana used through a firm at United that makes sure that they can actually do it if we put them in the program. And then third, they have to agree that they're going to give back, that they understand they're getting something that's really important.

11:21And when they get through it, they're going to give back to their community. As Gwen said, that's going to make this really transformational. It's not that we're going to have X number of students, we're going to have X number of students multiplied by some exponent of people that they can go influence over time. And that's really, really important to us. So, you know, our hope is, and I'm certain it's true because all these students have committed to it, is that once they get through this, they're not going to go live out in some nice community by the airport, even though they can afford to. They're going to go stay in their communities and make a difference there.

11:57And they're doing things now, by the way. I mean, we're doing we're off with Dana's leadership, started up a program called Captain Your Life where our students are going out and helping. And, you know, we had a camp this summer where, you know, some high school individuals and younger came out and went through a camp. And our students were there teaching them things about piloting, flying drones and things and talking about and putting them in the simulator that we had. so anyway it's all those things are coming together to make it so that again i don't want to dismiss diversity that look it's a diverse group but but the criteria are those um but it's it's females it's people of color is primarily what we're attracting um and because because i do think it's important um i do think it's important that people see people that look like them in jobs that they can do and if they don't if they don't have that um you know we're we're going to be in this situation for a long time.

12:53And again, what that means is you're not getting the best people. That's really, that's a really important note, actually. It's important to see people that look like them. You know, I always say, you know, when you think like, particularly kids at the gate, you know, and getting a bit antsy and all the rest of it, but, you know, if they see a pilot, you know, that sort of looks like something they can recognize, whether that's a woman or, you know, a person that's the same color as them, that there's a certain sort of element of like, oh, that's interesting, you know, as a kid, you know. Yeah, it hit me just the other day.

13:27We had a really nice event out at Envoy. Envoy, you know, the airline that is one of the own subsidiaries of America that flies and the CEO of Envoy is an amazing guy named Pedro Fabregas. And Pedro came and spoke and he, you know, talked to our students and he was fantastic. But after that, one of our students who is Hispanic, as is Pedro, came up to me and said, can I talk to Pedro some more? And I said, well, I don't know. He's gone back to his office. I'll see if I can find him. But then he said to me, he goes, it's just, people always say when you see someone like you doing something that you want to do, it makes a big difference.

14:05He goes, and this is the first time it's ever happened to me. And I was like, oh my gosh. So it's incredibly important. We shouldn't ignore it at a time that people are arguing about whether or not we should be hiring people because of DEI, I would argue, of course we should. Again, it's the best of the best thing, but it also matters to the individuals that don't see people that look like them in roles like airline pilots or CEOs of airlines. Once they have that, it opens up all sorts of possibilities for them. Well, and I'd just like to add quickly too, Doug has said this a number of times and you can say it again because he'll say it better than me.

14:44But there is no DEI pilot hire there. There just isn't. They've all gone through the same training. They've all gotten the same certifications. I mean, it's just something there's there's no you don't get pushed through. You don't get passed through. So as far as DEI goes, none of that is going on in the cockpit. Yeah, really good point, Gwen. I did. Yeah. It's really annoying when you hear people say things like that, because and again, It's stuff that I knew back then, but I know really now watching it happen. I can't think of another profession that is more qualitatively, objectively, that you have to pass a test than an airline pilot, except maybe a professional athlete.

15:25You know, if you can't hit, you can't play in the majors and you'll get thrown out. If you can't pass these tests, there's no favoritism. There's no one hands you the answers. You have to be able to do it. And it's hard. And it takes a lot of work. And but if they can do it, they certainly should be given the opportunity. It's interesting because it's it's measurable, isn't it? It's a career that's actually measurable, very high standards, very high rules and criteria. And then it has to be consistent. So that person has to have them the mental attitude that just says, not only am I going to meet or surpass those criteria, but I'm going to keep doing it time and time again.

16:07Right. So anybody suggesting that a black pilot is some DEI hire is ignorant and offensive to that person because they've worked so hard to get there and they couldn't have possibly gotten there because someone wanted to help them. They did it themselves. And it sounds also from what you said earlier that, you know, hearing what you were saying about some of your early students getting involved in, you know, telling that story. So there's a sort of pass it on attitude. Yes. Do you have good stories to tell on that, you know, in terms of sort of, you know, success stories, if you like, so far? And I should tell my story.

16:45So we have this one student. He was one of our early, I guess he was like in our second class of students. And he, as Doug noted earlier, they're all working. And then they do this flying and that flying school work when they can. So Zahad works at the high school that he graduated from. And he, I'm not really sure what his job is, but he interacts with the kids a lot, the other students there. and this one young man named Nick went up to him one day and he said, you know, I see you every morning out there flying because he's got some sort of flight app on his phone where he can track people flying.

17:30So he's been tracking Zahad and every morning Zahad before he goes to work at school, he gets up and he takes his aviation lessons. And this young man, Nick, has taken a shine to it. He just, he's fascinated with what Zahad's doing. And now it's something that he's interested in possibly doing for himself. So right there, our mission is working because it's being paid forward. But the camp that we offered this summer, Nick signed up for it. And Dana, who, you know, our CEO also ran the camp. And, you know, Nick was just a star. So it's just fun to see, you know the mission working and and i and i will tell you it put extra pride in zahad's work as well because he now knows this student from his school is paying attention so it's it's just it's really an awesome experience it's exactly what we want to happen it's happened you can see it's a small scale right now but it just works it's coming full circle it's very circle yeah Another quick, similar type, full circle.

18:39One of our students who's gotten through, the one who's actually working for us, he's a certified flight instructor now. He just gave the check ride to one of our students who needed to get for his private lesson. But here is, you know, here's someone we just had in the instructor. We can't arrange this. The instructor was Shaquille, who gave him the check ride. It's like, oh, this is just so great to watch. Someone who had no chance of doing this two years ago is now giving check rides to someone else. And that one means a lot more to him than the ones that he does for others. Yeah, that's all to do then with the sort of a level of passion and dedication that these people have.

19:25It sort of takes it to that next level. You know, I would, you know, forgive me for saying this, but I think here's a couple. you probably both have jet fuel in your veins. It's so, you know, aviation is so long and embedded in you and you know, so many different, seen it from so many different elements and viewpoints. But can I ask you with this, with this aspect of your, of your career here, you know, any examples of sort of, you know, what you've either learned or what you enjoy most about this aspect? Well, what I learned, and we didn't expect it, but I think, what do we have about like 22 students now, something like that.

20:10And I mean, we all, we've created our own little community and family within our little Breaking Down Barriers group. And we do things, you know, with them, but they also, like they have study sessions together. They've just created this little family within themselves to help each other get through it. Because it's hard. I mean, it actually seems impossible to me for anyone to get through the training. And so they're there to support each other. They text with each other. They'll ask each other questions. And there's no, as far as I can see right now, these kids are competitive, but they're not competitive with each other.

20:52They want all of them to succeed. They want their breaking down barriers, brothers and sisters, to be out there on the line one day and giving each other a high five. And, you know, we kind of feel like we've created a little fraternity, if you will. So that's been an unexpected real treat for me. Wonderful. Doug? Well, I guess what I've learned is this is a real opportunity. I mean, I kind of suspected it. That's why we started it. But it's been more meaningful than I even anticipated. It just is, it works. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's these, these individuals would not have been doing this if not for this, if not for breaking down barriers, every one of them will tell you that.

21:40And they're all going to be airline bought. And, you know, so that's, that one, it feels good, but it's like, what that shows is there's this enormous need out there for things like this. We're really small. We're doing, we feel good about what we're doing, but my gosh, there should be better ways for this to happen than for people, for individuals to go figure out how to start a nonprofit and do it in their individual communities. You know, I don't know why you can get a federal loan for a four-year, you know, degree in humanities and you can't get one for uh for less than that uh to go learn to get the training to become an airline pilot i don't know why we just why we which is a job that when you're once you're doing it you're helping economies and all sorts of other things as well aren't you i mean you've you've become part of you know a community because you're connecting people but also trade and and everything so and and again for good reason pilots are really well paid So, you know, there are all sorts of great, you know, work programs going on in and around Dallas and I'm sure all around the United States.

22:47And, again, they're great. But none of them, you know, none of them are, you know, oh, do you want to be a partner in a law firm or a doctor? Because that's really hard and expensive. But the pilots are paid like partners in law firms and doctors. And they can transform the communities. And, you know, you don't have to have that degree of schooling. Again, I'm by no means suggesting it's easy because it's not. You got to be really smart. You got to get through all this training. But if you can do that, you should be able to. And if we get enough people to do it, it'll be transformative. Yeah. And it shouldn't just be us working on it.

23:23Well, I was just going to say, when we talk about what we're doing, everybody gets interested. Everybody somehow wants to involve in any form that they may be able to do that. And tell them about the award we just won. I'm sorry. This is so exciting. DCEO Magazine has an award for nonprofits, which is nice of them to do. We were, Dana got us nominated. It was our first, it's in the education group of nonprofits. Social impact. Social impact. Thank you. And we were in the lower tier, the smaller group. Anyway, we're in this big room. And as we get there, we're in the very back of the room, which, you know, doesn't sound good in an award ceremony.

24:04If you're in the very back, you're probably not going to get the award. but you know so it's me and gwen and dana and zachary and jacara and our one employee anyway we we won and and uh you know and we screamed like we've just won an oscar or something so but it was very exciting you know because like it's this recognition for the thought we're doing it it's true uh what gwen started with on this which is people we talked to it's really it and it doesn't take long to people oh my god it's a great idea like how come this there isn't more of this and we agree how come there isn't more of this um it's not that difficult it makes a lot of sense and trust me it works i know because we're doing it and it's so dang rewarding to watch and in some sense infuriating uh that you have to go make it happen and that we don't make it easier but you did so well congratulations on that award that's fantastic it also very much sounds like You did tap into something that you, you know, wasn't actually, you know, nobody was really aware of just what the need was until you did it.

25:10And then all of a sudden you realize, yeah, this this there's a need here. So, you know, good for you. Absolutely. Can I ask you one last thing, really, just to talk to our audience here, which is, of course, a very aviation motivated audience. So anybody listening to this, how would you advise that they might get involved or best support the foundation? Oh, thank you for that. First off, when I mentioned partners, I should have mentioned American Airlines. So far, I mean, you didn't ask, but we've funded this so far almost entirely, Gwen and I, and then a nice gift from American Airlines when I retired.

25:49And that's what we haven't done a whole lot of fundraising. We're getting to where we're going to want to because we're just going to get big enough. And there is so much need that we want to do more. So first, that would be very helpful if anyone feels so compelled. Basically, donate. Donate. Yes, please donate. Thank you. Let's be straight about it. Thank you, Karen. I sometimes am not good at the ask. But yes, donate, please. BreakingDownBarriers.org is the website. Yeah, BreakingDownBarriers.org is our website. And you can contribute there. We would love that. We have Giving Day coming up here soon.

26:27Dana and team are working on it, but that would be wonderful. I said we have a lot of volunteers who help. We're always looking for more. Again, you can just reach out to Dana through that same website and do that. But, yeah, donate would be great. So you heard it straight from Doug there.

26:51breakingdownbarriers.org yes and you'll find out all the information there and yes get involved do help Doug Gwen thank you so much for joining Window Seat it's always a pleasure to see you both and talk to you and I'm greatly looking forward to seeing you both in DC on September 10th at the POKE Gala so thank you again thank you for having us it's been a treat thanks Karen very nice of you thank you also to our producers andrea copley smith and natalia peleio and of course a huge thank you to our listeners for following window seat we love having you on board subscribe to window seat on apple podcasts or wherever you like to listen so you don't miss an episode and please do give you give us your feedback and a rating so we can deliver the programs you want to hear this is karen walker disembarking from window seat

27:50We'll be right back.