Pillion, with director Harry Lighton: the unlikely love story with a Christmas twist

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0:35ho ho ho hello and welcome back to bar humbug the christmas movies podcast that today is really finding that there is a christmas movie for everybody because today we are discussing pillion yes pillion which has been much garlanded and much awarded recently at the british independent film awards and and at the london film festival it is the directorial debut of director Harry Leighton, who we will be hearing from later in the show, and stars Harry Melling, best known up until now at least, for the Harry Potter movies, and now playing a young man who is interested in forming a relationship with an older biker, played by Alexander Skarsgård.

1:13I think it's a terrific film, but today to talk to me about it, I'd like to welcome along an old friend of the podcast. Please join me in welcoming David Morgan. How are you doing? Hello, very good. How are you? Yeah, very well, thank you. All the better for seeing your lovely face. Oh, and to you. I was shocked when you suggested this as a Christmas movie because previously I have watched some absolute trash. I needed to give you the option of something I actually believe is a good movie for once. You've taken some bullets for us in the past. Oh, yeah. I mean, this was definitely less absurd than Hot Frosty.

1:45I think that's fair. I think that's fair. So what did you think of this? Because I've already said I love it. I think it's great. But tell me your take immediately on Pillion. I really enjoyed Pillion. It was really, really great. And I am a queer person of the 90s, so I'm used to being burned by gay films. Quite a lot of the media when I was growing up was sort of explaining gays to straight people. And what I enjoyed about this film is it really didn't care what straight people thought. It was quite honest and confronting. I went with my boyfriend to see it at the Ritzy, lovely cinema, and we've both been told oh it's not it's not that bad like it's not that kind of explicit and we've seen some things like I've seen all the stuff it was a lot more explicit than I was expecting I thought it would be a bit toned down um but it was not no that you you saw everything it was great you I mean yeah it's a fine line to walk because on one hand I feel like people who you wouldn't necessarily expect to want to see the BDSM gay biker movie yeah you know have loved it because it is a really good movie it's a beautiful character study I think both both of them are fascinating I think you know Colin the Harry Mellon character is just an incredibly interesting character I think it's funny I think it's sweet I think it has its heart in the right place I think it it has a really loving supportive imperfect but basically non-toxic family portrayal in it you know it has all of these things going for it so i don't want to assume that people are going to be overly shocked i don't want to put people off seeing it but equally there are some things that are going to shock your granny potentially you know and it's 100 yeah this is what i loved about it i think the pacing is incredible uh i think because i'm not in that community i am gay but i'm not in that community i find some of it the thing i think the film deals with really interestingly is it's not a good sub-dom relationship what they are in that because we see good sub-dom relationships we see good fetish based companionship yes that's not what the leads have yeah and what's really lovely is as you're watching this especially if you are new to the community the moment at which you need someone to go what what are you doing the mum steps in and they have that scene at dinner and she says what we all want to say to Ray she says exactly that and it's the film going oh no no no it's fine like we know this isn't good but it is interesting and that's what I really love I thought the the direction was gorgeous I really enjoyed those moments where it's so claustrophobic in Ray's flat especially and then the moment they get on a bike it just opens up it's this beautiful freedom and you sort of understand i think in that moment what it is that colin's getting yes this escape this joy and similarly ray who we actually don't learn anything about apart from the fact that he's controlling and mean yeah until he isn't and hot oh and so hot like the film is very much if he wasn't that hot he wouldn't get away with any of this yes as well which is fine and that is queer culture hot people get away with more just because they're hot and that is reality but yeah he's it is it's interesting i love that the film doesn't make us feel bad for colin or he wasn't duped it is something he wants he just didn't want it like this i think it's really interesting that way because i remember when very different film 50 shades of gray both book and film came out and there was a lot of concern and expressed over the fact that Anna, is it Anna?

5:43Anyway, her, that she goes from really zero into this BDSM relationship without really any in between. And so the question is, you know, can it be informed consent? Can it be real? Does she understand fully? Does the film, does that film deal properly with consent and everything else? And I think the same argument, if I'm totally honest, could be made on the basis of what we see here. But I think what's interesting here is that Colin's consent may not be fully informed either, but it is extremely enthusiastic. And so you sort of don't, you're still worried for him throughout. You're like, I'm not sure you understand quite what you're doing here.

6:20And I'm concerned this is going to end badly for you because you're a sweet little innocent baby bird and anything could go wrong. But at the same time, he's so enthusiastic and he is also so supported elsewhere in his life that you feel like he has some kind of structure there that can pick up the pieces if something does go wrong with Ray, which let's be honest it probably will because Ray is as you say not a very nice person always no no he is coddled is the wrong word but he is loved yes I think the one thing I found interesting and that they didn't quite fix for me is so the book it's based on is set pre-AIDS crisis it's in the 70s and so moving it to modern day there are some things Colin could have googled right and that's my thing is like if you know you're into it you're probably looking it up and they just sort of whiffed that away which is fine because I imagine like back in the 70s you did just have to find this out as you went along but there are plenty of websites I have heard about this kind of thing where he could have figured out that consent is the biggest thing like BDSM relationships are a partnership and truthfully the person that holds the control is the sub because they get to tell you what's acceptable yes which is why when he does set out a need and set out a boundary that's when everything starts to break down because that's not what Ray wants yeah yeah absolutely Ray wants a slave and what we see when they're amongst their friends is while there's similar things happening with the other couples there is love between those couples all the other couples there is respect and that's the one thing he was unwilling to give colin because he's also unwilling to give it to himself well what i thought was heartbreaking about those kind of scenes is that there are these moments where you see ray give a little bit so they're in the camping trip with their fellow club members he has that moment where he's like you know what i know what he wants and i'm going to give it to him for once both literally and figuratively And in their day out towards the end of the film, he shows he can do it, but he just can't allow himself to do it.

8:33And for me, the film was a tragedy really for Ray, even as it's Colin's coming of age story. I agree with you, although every time he gives him something, he has to first break his heart. So at the picnic scene, he gets a blowjob from another guy in front of Colin. And then he gives them what he wants. And with the lovely day they have, he's processing a lot of stuff. And it is sad. It is bleak, the fact. And I love the fact that we never revisit Ray. We never get to find out. He is just gone. That's how broken this man is, that he drops literally everything and clears out. Yeah. Men would rather drop everything and clear out than go to therapy, basically.

9:19Oh, 100%. I mean, me and my boyfriend were having it on the walk back. We were both, he could have at least left the key for that padlock. Like, I felt so sorry for Colin because he's walking around with his lock on. Ray didn't even need the key under the mat. So he had to get the bolt cutters out. That is, that's a pain. That's not fun. His dad had to chop off. I felt so sorry for Colin in that moment. I think it's so well put together. I didn't feel icky. Again, coming at it from a queer person, you worry about representation no matter what you're watching especially from the year I'm from I thought this handled everything pretty wonderfully especially Colin's parents like there's no animosity there about him being gay in fact she's setting him up on dates like that stuff isn't there but then there's this extra step where it's like okay I want to be supportive but what the hell are you doing yeah I thought that was really well handled and And I think maybe that is another difference from the book written in the 70s.

10:20You know, the parents maybe wouldn't have been quite so all embracing at that point. And I think it's nice to feel like we have, you know, made some progress as a civilization, as a society, and that they are now setting up on dates, even if it's with somebody he isn't interested in. You know, that's good. Hooray for parents. Yeah. No, it's all. And also, I sort of believe if Colin knew what relationship he was in and could explain it, his parents would have listened to him. Yes. They wouldn't have fully got it. But if he could have explained it and that's all what that seems about. It's Colin sort of realizing, oh, no, this is awful.

11:00What's happening to me isn't nice. But also, I do love him. I get I feel something that I've never felt before. And I don't want that to go away. absolutely well and what did you think about the christmasiness of it so we're going to have an interview with harry lighten coming up as i said and this is something that he genuinely wanted to put into the film this is not in the book the book starts at a birthday party and for him i think it gave first of all a time frame to the film christmas to christmas and just a little after but it also just allowed a bunch of christmasy stuff to happen at the beginning i wasn't expecting for a christmas movie as you said but there is something brilliant about that and also ray's first control of if you want to meet me it's on christmas day which he then has to explain to all of his family it proves that he's willing to like drop everything to go and do god knows what with this guy so that works great and also time frame wise it means that we know exactly how long this has been going on so it's a really good marker and there is something about christmas about being trapped with your parents.

12:06I think we all feel that. I think he wanted the audience to feel you've got to go home, which is where Colin has always been. He is still there. There is this element of being trapped, like he sat in the back of the car. Like there's that... Infantilization. ...reverting to being a child. Yeah, 100%, because we all turn into us at 14 when we go home for Christmas. It's awful. And so I think putting us in that mode, you can see why Colin falls into this, why he runs off, where he needs to escape, even though his parents love him, but he's like, I just need to do something. And I think that is a really beautiful way of putting it in.

12:44Also, you know, just nice to see Christmas in a gay film. I think we don't do that very often. Yeah, we've had in the last few years, we've had some, you know, LGBT generally Christmas movies. We've had a little bit more opening up of the Netflix rom-com model to include lots of different kinds of couples. Well, some different kinds of couples, at least. still conventionally beautiful young people but it you know it feels like this is pushing it a little bit further again we're opening it up a little bit further you know even bdsm biker gangs love to celebrate christmas and that's a wonderful thing when you think about it yeah i think it is also it is destabilizing to see christmas in a in a movie like this and i think that destabilization is a deliberate choice i think he's because you walk in and it starts at Christmas and you're like, oh, I didn't.

13:34Oh, OK. I don't know where I am now. I thought I was in this place and now I'm here. And I think that's a very interesting directorial choice to make. Yeah, absolutely. Seeing incredibly sexy and threatening Alexander Skarsgård in his biker leathers in a bar where someone is also singing in a barbershop quartet. That's just cognitive dissonance all over the place. I recognise both of these things, but together they're just confusing me. I don't know what's happening. I'm turned on, but also turned off. It's very weird. Yeah. What an amazing person. What did you think of Skarsgård's performance in this?

14:11I love Alexander Skarsgård. I think he's incredible. I loved him in Murderbot. So good. Weirdly, a similar role to this. Actually, yes. Just nothing. He's very, very good at micro-expressants, especially when he's playing a role where he's not allowed to show an emotion. and he holds his face so still but there's tiny bits that move and you can sort of get what he's thinking and what he's doing when he's angry but it's so small and all the shots of him you are close you're very close to his face until right at the end when he opens up and he you get that big smile you get that wide face and that's the moment he has to go away because that's too much he's let it out and i think he's his ability to fully commit to this was beautiful i think he did excellent jobs and I'm very picky about what straight men I let play queer roles it's like him and Stanley Tucci that's it that's that's the list I mean it's hard to think of anyone who I immediately think you're mistreating by that okay yeah let's start them on the list that sounds great and how about Harry Melling because again for people who only know him as Dudley Dursley which I think is a lot of people this is a real awakening this is a real reset oh 100 % I love that he's gone down this route but he appears to have gone the Daniel Radcliffe route and the Robert Pattinson route of picking weird yes because you know you're always going to get known for Potter and also I've made some money so why not go be an artist and have these films made because i'm in them and i really respect that and also i thought he was incredible because he was sad and down without being entirely pitiful like there was still he wasn't being dragged along he was choosing to a point the heartbreak was real i thought he was incredible he's got a really really great presence on screen and the terror was there but then fighting like what he was doing with his face and his choices I thought were just brilliant absolutely wonderful yeah absolutely and just physically just in terms of stature like hair color everything just enough of a contrast to Skarsgård to create this slightly odd couple dynamic that is yeah that does kind of take you a minute to kind of get past even just as a viewer like oh wow okay and I think add something to this story of and add something to Colin's sense of how am I with this guy like are you kidding me this guy I think we all would if we were with Alexander Skarsgård really he he fancies me where something's gone wrong and it could end at any moment he might wake up at any second you know you get that sense from him yeah and again with the pacing like the moment we're all having that thought he's showing a co-worker a photo of him and she goes how legitimately how I think there's a really wonderful truthfully in the film I think any point the audience are moving their brain away and considering something the director comes straight in and goes oh no no I know it's fine and this is what's happening yeah and you go okay cool it's like the princess bride right every time every single time I've ever watched that with a man they've turned to me and gone is this a romance exactly as the little boy in bed turns to his grandfather and goes, is this a kissing book?

17:41I swear to God, it's uncanny. So I feel like you're right. I feel like this film does the same thing, essentially. It has metaphorically a grandson in a bed going, is this a kissing book the whole way through? Amazing. Oh, definitely. I'm so glad it's getting all the love it's getting. And also, you can tell from the press tour how much Harry Melling and Skarsgård love it because they're really investing and spending time on this tiny indie movie. Yeah. and I haven't met anyone yet who's been to see it and is not into it yeah despite it being breathlessly sad at the end but also hopeful it is sad but it's but you have to have that first heartbreak everyone's first heartbreak is the worst thing in the world yeah yeah and there's definitely I didn't come out of this surprise I came out of it thinking it's a tragedy for Ray but it's not a tragedy for Colin Colin is only going to get stronger as it were or at least more sure of what he wants in his life from here and I sort of took a lot of comfort and a lot of hope from that.

18:38I think it's a beautiful movie. I think it has so much compassion and affection for particularly Colin, but really for all of them. You know, it just comes at this subculture with this clear, open eyes and goes, well, this is what these people enjoy. And isn't that nice that they have found it? Yeah, when Ray and Colin are on screen, mostly. It's mostly about them. But the little moments that we capture when they're in groups of the interplay between the other couples. It's shot so lovingly and so kindly. And it does juxtapose against their relationship because it's like, well, they're being nice.

19:15And like when Harry Melling and Jake Sears are carrying the table and he's like, how could you not kiss? Like it's important. I really loved it. It was really great. What was the funniest moment for you? And was it Chislehurst? The problem is I was ruined by the trailer for Chislehurst. No. Because that is the funniest. It was the funniest joke in it. I agree. I love that. But then, you know, just the mum calling him a cunt. That was, it was both incredibly funny and devastating. It was this, you've got both things to go, oh no, don't, because I don't want you to ruin it. I don't want you to ruin it for him.

19:50Because even I'm under the spell of Ray watching the film and I don't want it to be ruined for Colin. But I'm like, no, but do say it though, because he's being a dick. Because he really is. Yeah, he really is. Yeah. All right, we have to bring this to an end, but let's wrap it up. First of all, Christmasiness. How are you rating this for Christmasiness out of five? Oh, see, the problem is, it's at the beginning and the end, but it's not that Christmas, like a three? Like there's enough Christmas in it and Christmas I think is important. Yes. But it doesn't have all the other stuff that would make it a Christmas movie.

20:26I think that's fair. Although when it's Christmassy, it's very Christmassy, but it's only, as you say, the beginning and the end. What is more Christmassy than giving someone a blowjob behind the high street. Behind a Primark, because it's behind a Primark in your hometown. I mean, there are probably some things more Christmassy, but I wouldn't like to speculate. We'll leave that to the audience. Okay, and Mark's out of five as a film. Oh, it's a five. I just think it's so wonderful. I didn't turn away from it. I thought the pace, I think the thing with this is the pacing for me is so beautiful.

20:59I just think the way that the film keeps the viewer safe is really, really, really spectacular. Yeah, loved it. I'm 100 % with you on that. I think it's one of the best films of the year. Just speaking of which, let's now put in the interview with Harry Lighton, the director of this film. This is his debut feature, which is astonishing. He's obviously made some very well-received shorts, which I recommend checking out. But this is his feature debut and he is rightly getting a huge amount of attention for it. But please enjoy this interview with him. Welcome Harry Lighton to Bar Humbug. Merry Christmas.

21:33How are you? Thank you very much. I'm good. Christmas has been a part of almost every film I've ever made and I am kind of infantilised in terms of how much I obsess about it. So it's a pleasure to be on this podcast specifically. Amazing. Well, this is something I wanted to ask you about because I loved Pillion. It's one of my films of the year. It's such an incredible mix of humour and heart and inspiration and tragedy and just everything in one film. But tell me specifically for this podcast, specifically about the Christmassyness, because the book isn't, it doesn't start at Christmas, right?

22:09It starts as a birthday party. no the book is set it starts at summer and I wanted to move it to Christmas because I think that firstly there's something kind of Jesus like about Ray in terms of being this like this like superhuman pseudo god of a man and the idea of him arriving on Christmas Eve I thought was like a funny wink to that and and then more importantly a lot of the kind of dynamics in the film and the comedy in the film comes from contrasting the like suburban world of Colin's family the Smiths to to the world of Ray this like sexy world of bikers and there's something so kind of normative I think and like family oriented around Christmas and I love it but I've grown up watching Christmas films where they kind of support quite a traditional version of romance and so I thought there was a lot to play with having the film which like opens out onto Christmas and quite a like syrupy world and then sees whether this relationship which is very unusual kind of strict on sub relationship can fit into that framework of Christmas.

23:20Yeah and it gives it does give you as you say a framework as well because you know you get the sense of progress across time because we do glimpse Christmas again towards the end of the film and you get a very clear sense of oh this is how long this has taken oh i understand now what's what's been going on a little bit as well i guess it helps as a signpost yeah exactly it's a frame and that's kind of what christmas does for me as i get older also it becomes this this sort of metric by which you like measure how much your life has progressed or hasn't progressed since the previous christmas and you're like how much has changed since you were like 12 having christmas And for Colin in this film, we're with him for the course of a year and like so much changes in terms of his ability to to navigate romance and sex.

24:06And so when we return to him, like metaphorically opening his stocking for the second time in the film, it's a chance to like sit with Colin and be like, oh, you know, he actually has learned a lot from this experience. Yeah, it's it's honestly it's beautiful for him. Tell me about finding Harry and Alexander Skarsgård for these for these roles. Was that a long search? Like, how did that come together? It really wasn't a long search. I got extremely lucky in that, like, I knew that I wanted Harry as soon as I'd finished writing the script. He was the guy I had on my mind. And fortunately, my casting director, Colleen Crawford, she sent me a list of potential Collins and Harry was on the top of that as well.

24:46And so we approached him and he said yes. And then he said yes kind of instantly. and then we wanted someone who'd be a good match for him and Alexander jumped out I'd been watching Succession at the time and I thought he was incredible and kind of psychologically interesting and as well as obviously like categorically a hottie and I thought it was I thought it was kind of a stupid idea for a debut feature to pitch to Alexander because you know he's a he's a big movie star but fortunately again my casting director said well give it a go you won't lose anything and sent it to him and he said yes very quickly so it was kind of it was it was like a weird couple of weeks in my life where these two actors who I like adored from a distance then suddenly came on boards and the project from that moment became a reality quite quickly yeah it's impossible now to imagine anyone else in those roles it's they're so so good together I did want to ask though about for harry particularly you know was he already a singer in a in a barbershop quartet was that something he had to rehearse and learn he was very much not already a singer in a barbershop but that he put a lot of work into it we had an amazing amazing group of barbershoppers who came on board to support him and the other members of the film quartet and and that was basically the vast majority of his of his pre-production preparation was learning to sing barbershop i mean the guy could sing already and i'd seen him singing on film so i knew that he had a good voice but it's a very technical form of singing and so yeah a lot of work went into that there can't be many films that have both barbershop quartet advisors and biker and bdsm advisors it's a fascinating mix really it's yeah it's sort of what the film kind of is hinged on i think are those funny contrasts absolutely so i want to just quickly because we don't have very long i wanted to ask you about christmas itself do you have a favorite christmas movie you strike me as someone who watches a few yeah i do i do it's i think some people will sigh when they hear it but like bridget jones is my favorite christmas movie and and again that's a christmas movie which i guess has had some impact on pillion because it has that christmas to christmas time frame but i just think that renee zellweger for my money is like the funniest actor on the planet and there's that speech she does in bridget jones number one and it's specifically number one which i like where she's at the like book launch and she gets up on stage and introduces her boss it's just makes me cackle every time i watch it it is a brilliant brilliant piece of performance yeah and mad about the boy was really good this year i really enjoyed it yeah and what about christmas traditions do you have any particular Christmas traditions that you do every year you know some people open presents on a weird time or have to have a particular decoration on the tree or something like that yeah they might not thank me for saying this but I come from a very greedy family and so since as long as I can remember my brother and my sister and myself have like met very early on Christmas day at like six in the morning and eaten a chocolate orange each an entire chocolate orange at six in the morning and when we were younger it used to be then like we'd feel sick before we went to church but but now our stomachs have grown and so we still if we're all together for christmas we still do that i thought you were going to say now our stomachs have grown so we have two chocolate oranges every christmas maybe this year it's something to aim for just finally you know how has the reaction been to the film is this kind of what you I mean expected is maybe a strong word but is this what you hoped for?

28:24Certainly not expected definitely like hoped for you know the the wide release is yet to come but the kind of reaction from festivals and festival audiences has been has been amazing and particularly from not just people in the world of BDSM and kink but also people who maybe feel like the film isn't isn't for them you know we had a screening at London where there were lots of friends of mine and my family and people who might not you know like run to see a film about kinky bikers who came out and were like oh I was like surprised by how funny and sweet it was and that's been that's been a real like lovely takeaway for me yeah it is both funny and sweet and I am also not a member of any of these communities but was just completely completely charmed by I think people are going to absolutely love it I can't wait for people to see it what's next for you have you got any plans yet have you been sort of psyched sadly nothing which I can talk about I don't think but I'm gonna get to the release which is in a couple of weeks and then I'm gonna knuckle down from December and start writing something next and yeah hopefully fingers crossed it won't be too long before I'm making another thing powered entirely by chocolate oranges yeah exactly Amazing well listen thank you so much for chatting to us And best of luck with Billion Thank you so much Alright and that is nearly all the time We have this week David I'm assuming That your favourite Christmas movie for example Has not changed since last time you were here Do you have any new Christmas traditions you need to disclose To us apart from perhaps ones involving the back of Primark Obviously Muppet Christmas Carol best Christmas movie ever made Correct I am watching some terrible ones I haven't seen a good one yet They're all sort of bad I watch oh what fun yesterday and that is terrible so bad and i was so disappointed and i didn't make it all the way through another one of them because i had no sexual chemistry i'm watching like one a week at the moment on netflix and whatever else i come up on but i suppose my current christmas tradition is the wonderful rosserty davis with his new doctor who i'm enjoying that coming out at the moment the earth and the sea i recommend if you enjoyed children of earth which you should also watch.

30:36It's the incredible series. Amazing. And where can people find more from you? Probably Instagram and Blue Sky. I'm at This Is David on pretty much everything. And TikTok a tiny bit. Ooh, look at you. I know, I should get into it. We keep making stupid cocktails, so I'm going to start putting that up. We're currently making a honeyed sprout martini. That sounds horrifying, but I wish you well of it. I hope it turns out nice. Thank you. It'll be gorgeous. It's got chestnuts in it, a chestnut vodka. It'll be lovely. Okay, well, Merry Christmas, David. And to you.