CEO of 'The Ordinary' Opens Up About Her Co-Founder’s Tragic Death

0:00This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. insurance, fiscally responsible, financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit Progressive.com to see if you could save. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary, not available in all states or situations.

0:28Throughout this entire conversation, I've thought about 20 people that I need to send this to. You had this idea for the TripAdvisor for skincare. People ask, like, why was it so successful? It was common sense. I remember from the second I met Brendan, he was a genius. You couldn't help but, like, be in awe of him. Then we launched The Ordinary at the end of 2016. The business was exploding. It's quite mad what you guys did, Brendan. Sounds like a brilliant guy. He sounds like a maverick. So when did you first start noticing that something was off with him? I've never seen a human change so quickly.

1:02He'd left his body. Everyone was petrified. What would you call it? A psychotic break? It's so hard to diagnose. It was all on Instagram. It was very public. Were you devastated?

1:17He shut down the whole company. That was the point when then everyone had to step in. So then a court order was applied to remove him. And I was seven months pregnant at that point. Where is he? Like, is he safe? What's he doing? And then he passed away. I feel like in many ways I still haven't stopped to process a lot of it. I don't know what you can do differently. So I think what I've learned is... This podcast is called Begin Again, and you've done that again and again and again. And now, where are you at? I can't think of a better way to end than with that. Today I'm going to be talking to Nicola Kilner, and she is an incredible businesswoman.

2:00She was the co-founder and CEO of Deciem, a beauty brand, umbrella brand that had The Ordinary, which became a billion pound selling business. I love this woman and I think she's going to bring something for everyone, young or old, ideas, inspiration and lots of life experience. oh by the way if you haven't subscribed yet um don't forget to subscribe because then you can get lots more episodes i'd like to go back to where you were born were you born in sheffield yes yeah yeah so i was born in sheffield and and spent all of my life there until i went to university my mum and dad were both from sheffield everyone in my kind of family was from there and like I love Sheffield I think it's just like that northern city where everyone is kind and warm has like a bit of grit to themselves too.

3:04Tell me what your dad was like because he he sort of encouraged you didn't he in on the business side of things. Yeah so for me my dad was just this like so much charisma so much energy you know he was the kind of person that would like light up every room you know my mum was kind of more reserved like a little bit more in the wings but my dad was kind of just the the life and the soul and the energy and you know I remember we used to like growing up watching you and big brother and like he'd always like come and sit my knee have a cuddle like so kind of very loving and but at the same time I think he he had a challenging upbringing I remember he was like the first child to ever get um expelled from his second sorry from his junior school I think he started smoking when he was like 10 and you know and I maybe don't know all the complexities but I think he maybe had challenges in his childhood and as much as he was this like energy and this light and this charisma he also had kind of moose wings and you know you would know when to be scared um so you he would sometimes make you scared like he was that erratic if he was angry I remember like the whole house would be in silence and just like creeping around with my mum and feeling that fear yeah more just from you know never from violence or anything but more just from him being angry and like the mood swings that would be there it's interesting isn't it trying to learn how to handle um someone's anger and how frightening it can be even though violence is not the threat that the it's the perception of the anger and how that makes you feel and behave yeah it's such a strange thing because you don't think you're going to get hit but you feel like you might at any moment yeah and like even though I hate confrontation like I'm very happy to like have like a heated debate like I'm happy to disagree with someone as long as it's like respectful yes like there's respect there but I hate and like you know I'm lucky my husband's super calm like I don't think we've ever had a raised voice in the 15 years we've been together because I'd get like like sad if there was like ever that feeling of like anger or confrontation but it's interesting because you You see, I've only actually ever been to two therapy sessions because I felt like there was just some stuff that I was kind of crying about.

5:39And it's one of those things where I feel very mentally and emotionally stable. But I was like, actually, the fact that I would cry quite easily about a couple of topics, I was like, maybe there is more to evolve. Do you mind me asking what those topics were? Mainly when I talk about like either my dad dying or Brandon dying. um and I think it's just those periods of I don't know like and even now actually that's me just talking about my dad then like normally I'd be crying so like even that's a good sign so it's really interesting because one thing she said to me was she was like most successful like she was so I basically and my dad eventually became an alcoholic he he always liked to drink but was never kind of dependent but quite quickly something kind of happened and I think he he then lost his job I even think things like you know me and my sister moving out when we went to university like kind of just this loss of purpose I think kind of things escalated quite quite quickly but anyway it's interesting because she said actually so many successful people are those that come from a family where they almost have like one like an alcoholic or kind of like a challenging parent and then the other parent like my mum who's just the most loving kindest calmest sweetest like most stable supportive person and she was like that combination she was like if you've grown up with like medium trauma actually it kind of creates you to be who you are and it's one of those things where like how you think about my strengths and it's you know never being like the smartest or any of those things but I think I'm a really good reader of people and emotions and actually like when you like read into actually like growing up in a childhood like there you read the room you know when to stay silent you know when to like ask a quite like and I don't think you necessarily realize that as a child what you're learning but actually learning for me like growing up in that environment then when you become business and it's ups and downs and so much shit happens along the way you're actually just like I'm always calm like nothing phases me and I think that's because actually like I remember like you know my mum if my dad was in a bad mood like we'd be petrified to go back in the house and just like not want to make any noise in case it like triggered him being angry it was interesting that you said that he became an alcoholic because when you were talking I thought this sounds like the kind of behavior that we adopt around an alcoholic because you're not quite sure when they're just going to flip and completely change in one moment but it sounds like he was it what it's what we would call a dry drunk it was someone who was behaving like an alcoholic and yet he he wasn't drunk yeah and yeah and like he always lied to drink but I never remember it was like consistent you know he was the kind of person that would you know have a couple of glasses of wine with dinner you'd have a vodka before bed but I never remember any peaks of there being like a drunk episode but you see quite quickly and i think you know when he and actually remember the doctors in hospital saying to us like he he was almost unlucky because they said actually how quickly he deteriorated wouldn't normally happen they were like normally people can actually survive years of drinking heavily whereas actually within like probably about three years he'd gone but I also remember at one point the doctor saying to us like with alcoholism like it's a terminal no it is I don't know if you know my mum was an alcoholic so I totally I totally get I get you but yeah I remember a doctor just taking us in true like it is a terminal illness because even if he ever stops drinking like it's always going to be there like there's always going to be triggers and i remember like he'd be in hospital and he'd walk out of hospital to go to an off license to buy a bottle of vodka and you're like you're in hospital and i feel like i'm so grateful that i think we're starting to know so much more about addictions and mental health and like i hope that becomes like much more treatment and awareness because when someone's brain is effectively the thing that's ill and obviously we'll we'll talk about brandon later but it was like a similar thing but when it's someone's brain like they can't themselves see the illness like and not to say it's easier but like if someone has cancer like there's a test result there's a treatment plan and largely everyone's aligned and like fighting to get that person better when it's like an addiction or mental health the brain is telling that person that nothing's wrong and like that everyone else is kind of out to get them and you can't get that support and i also think there's there's like a stigma as well i think for like i remember with my dad like we tried to hide it yes it was so strange that we could never just say what we're suffering from yes there is i i remember visiting a good girlfriend of mine i was at school with and i found out she was in hospital and i went to visit her and she was yellow and her eyeballs the whites of her eyes were yellow yeah and i was like i i could help you you know do you want me to help you get you into treatment she said it's a tough one that she said I I just don't know it's hard it's hard to let go of this and I thought but you know you're gonna die if you don't yeah she said yeah but it's still hard to let it go and I thought wow that's the choice yeah let go or die and it's still a hard choice yeah it's and when it gets to that point you love drinking so much yeah that you can't you'd rather die than not drink yeah and I think it's it's sometimes hard to like empathize with it because for me like and I think I have a very healthy relationship like love a few drinks with my friends but like you know I don't particularly like drink in the week or at home so to me the thought of like i'm gonna like not see my children like i'm gonna lose my life for a drink it's like hard to madness comprehend which is why i think like for me it does help to just understand like the brain is so powerful and that person's brain really is changed to that way like it's hard to bring them back but yet i remember like the yellow so like the smell but it's not even the it's not the smell of the alcohol on the breath it's like it's yeah it's like you're rotting from the inside how was your mother through all of this she was good she was just like strong in a way of you know it's difficult when when someone's very like a strong character and powerful and he's always you know my mum was I stay at home for many years and when you know she she worked but it was like part-time receptionist and kind of things here and there so like my dad was you know they were very traditional in like the rolls my mom did all the cooking the cleaning so I think it was difficult because I don't think anyone I mean no one could have stopped my dad from drinking and like and I think it's one of the things you always say like could we have done anything differently but again I think we're still as a society and it's great that I think there's so much more awareness coming about alcohol but we still it's like all those things like you still have to justify more not drinking than drinking yes and it's still like as a society like we kind of i don't think fully understand how addictive yes it is yeah um but yeah my mom was super strong but she was just incredibly warm and like i think for me i'm my sister like she's just you always felt her unconditional love and she was there and and also i think i i also have the respect that like i knew she would never leave him but I loved her for that it was kind of a like yeah we're a family like through thick and thin like we're together we're staying as a unit like we will survive this

14:18okay one of the things that you mentioned earlier was the quite traditional aspect of your family about your mum playing traditional kind of mum housewife role with part-time jobs and then your dad being the provider but your dad seemed really keen on trying to help you become more than that do you think he saw an entrepreneurial flair in you or do you think he was just trying to say you've you can do more than just being a stay-at-home mum you could go into business because didn't he gift you business books for Christmas and things like that that was more me asking for them oh was it I think I was more the how old were you then when you were asking for business books probably like from definitely from like 12 13 and like I used to love watching like dragon's den and just but again like I think a lot of and again and like we you know we were definitely comfortable like middle class and like you know a lovely house and kind of luckily my mum didn't have to work but we didn't have spare cashing so I always had this feeling like I want to have freedom in life like I want to go on the holidays I want to I want to buy what I want and I don't want to rely on a man or anyone else for that like I just want to kind of be in control of and buying what I want and kind of no one having to have an opinion on that so I think that was more of my motivation and I think again like seeing you know when my it was like a difficult chicken leg like when my dad got ill he obviously lost his his job and then that kind of made it worse like because it's also like a business you're an employee and if you don't do the service eventually like the paychecks stop and you lose that so I think even seeing that made me kind of like gosh I don't want anyone to be able to dispose of me like I kind of want to be in control and kind of really just like own my own destiny a lot more so you did business yeah at uni for me university is one of those things that I don't really think you need to go unless you want to become a doctor or lawyer like you need to learn like that field so for to get into business if there's anybody watching and they think their kids are into it I don't think you don't need to go that's interesting I do think university is just a great life experience like yes I think that age of like 18 to 21 the fact you can go to another city you live away like you're learning so many skills of like independence making new friends so I feel like it's worth it from that perspective but from business you could go into another company and get that experience so I was kind of like a little bit back and forth spoke to my my head of sixth form who is also my business studies teacher and she told me about this course which was a business studies in management course where effectively you did the first year as normal at university and then years two and years three you got sponsored by a blue ship company so I did mine at Boots and it was just like the best experience because within so like when I finished university after three years those two years I'd done four different roles at Boots like seeing different areas of the business and actually boots are a phenomenal employer for actually just like really looking after their people like investing in growth so I worked in um as the assistant buyer on on premium fashion brands and that was a time when there was like lots of new brands coming in so I really enjoyed getting to work with kind of these indie brands and giving them advice and okay look we're gonna list you but you need a PR agency you know you need all of these things in place to actually make sure that that consumers are coming in to buy the products and um through that I think I was lucky that they kind of spotted that I think I had a slightly different skill set I think it's much more common now now around but then at the time and they actually created a brand new role for me which is which was to be their buying manager for innovation which they'd never had before and this was really someone who could kind of go and find new brands but really just hand hold them and say like come into boots like we're not scary like we're going to work with a plan on how you actually can have success in boots so not just get the listing and then you know we return the stock six months later and how old were you at this point um I think I was like 22 this is yeah this you know how amazing that is for a 22 year old to get an entirely new role made for her yeah that's incredible and like I remember you were just going into the corridor to ring my mum like because it wasn't expected and you know they're like to to get to a buyer my role was to move sideways into healthcare you know like they have all these career plans like you need to do this you need to do this this is the normal trajectory completely unexpected I would like to ask you so you you were at Boots they'd created this role for you you did really enjoy being at Boots Boots but in early-ish 2000s was it 2011 did you meet Brandon yeah so I'd say Brandon was with his previous beauty company called indeed labs so he'd been one of the brands that i'd be nurturing and i remember from the second i met brendan he'd like bounce into reception and just when someone's just so you know when you just fall in love with someone instantly yeah like this person like he was a genius but also just actually his personality was just like you couldn't help but like be in awe of him so i met him when he was doing an indeed and we did a couple of launches through the the innovation program that i was managing and then suddenly out of the blue I got an email to say that he'd left indeed and I was like like oh my gosh what's happened because I mean their product launches were so successful at Boots it was like some of the biggest launches we'd ever had and I was also like gutted I was like I don't want this person to be gone from my life kind of what's going to happen so this was happening and at the same time like I'd always wanted to have my own business and I found that since working in beauty all of my friends family I was like well what's the best mascara what is the best foundation what's the best serum and I was thinking kind of around you know if you went on holiday you'd go on trip advisor and you know yeah you'd look at rankings and reviews but it didn't really exist the same way for beauty so I'd message Brandon me like oh look I have this like business idea that I really want to do but I would love some advice like when you're next in London so he lives and lived in Toronto like could we meet so I think quite quickly he was in London I met him and I spoke about my idea and he was like perfect I'll help you build that but will you come help me do DCM and like we'll do both together it was like perfect and what's interesting when you're talking about meeting brandon and you had this idea for the trip advisor for skincare but um he also had deciem could you just explain for anybody that's watching that didn't know the beginning concept of deciem because to me knowing um my partner's an entrepreneur you know i've got friends that have started businesses it's it's quite mad what you guys did because everybody always goes start one business and really concentrate on that but that's not what you did no so decions from the latin word for the number 10 so it's all about building 10 brands at once and the thinking the thinking behind this was first of all like we wanted to bring everything in house we wanted to have our own labs our own creative team and if you're just building one brand like it's difficult maybe to justify all of those resources which is why most you know most entrepreneurs you end up outsourcing everything and like that is one way that does work for so many people um but for us we felt like when you outsource like they're wearing other people's hats too they're not like living and breathing it like like we are so we wanted to bring everything in hats but also you know if I was flying to Australia to meet a buyer on one brand well why don't I go meet 10 10 buyers and do 10 brands and actually build so many more efficiencies by doing it that way and that was kind of the thinking behind it um and you see another thing that I think was really interesting was everyone we hired had very little experience and again partly that was because as a startup you can't like experience means high salary we couldn't afford anyone with high salaries so effectively everyone we were hiring were early like in the 20s out of college out of school you know maybe they'd had kind of one role but actually that was the success of Desiem because experience can really work from in in many ways and like there are certain fields you need experience but if you want to do something differently experience can sometimes be the worst thing you have because experience means you think about doing it the way everyone else does it if you don't have experience then you don't know and actually so like we often talk about common sense and and like I think the ordinary is such a good example of it's like people ask like why is it so successful and I'm like it was common sense like people want to know the ingredients like if you have a headache you would walk into a pharmacy you know you'd go and buy paracetamol or aspirin like we know when it comes to healthcare the basic ingredients we would buy for our needs yet you would walk into a beauty hall and you know maybe like a retinol or hyaluronic had some awareness but largely ingredients were not known so you would go and pick which serum you or like moisturizing you wanted to buy which was largely just based on either a recommendation or maybe it was a nice packaging packaging or whoever caught your attention first on the cancer in a department store like people didn't have that awareness of ingredients which is so important because like you need to know like you know for some people retinol works amazing for other people maybe vitamin c is better but if you don't know which ingredients you're using how do you actually know what's really working for you so I think you know Decian was lucky that it was formed with just young hungry people who were naive but naive in all like the best ways like I say now like part of our problem with Decian is we've lost a lot of naivety because we know when we're going to get told off like we know the way to do things whereas in the early days we'd just be like sorry like we didn't know we were just kind of we were trying and but it's also really interesting because the the ordering was the 11th brand we launched right and you know the the other brands before the ordering we still have um neod still out there so we still have a couple of others and the others we did retire but they weren't they weren't failure well nothing's a failure because you always learn but I mean they they did okay but back then we made the mistake of getting a listing too early like into a retailer when actually the demand wasn't there and I remember when I um had the privilege of meeting leonard lauder like one of the biggest advice he gave to us he was like you always have to make sure demand leaves distribution like your demand has to be ahead like you need people to to want you and they can't quite get you yeah right and and i think too often it happens the other way around and actually i think it is a good thing now with social media and like the way you can actually build demand for a brand you can kind of test it and then if consumers want it you can then follow the distribution strategy afterwards which i think is it's just much better but yeah it kind of it took us a lot of attempts and you know we did a hair care brand like we had a supplement brand so we were trying in in different fields and again it was interesting because the ordinary it came out of kind of frustration that we had some neod which is one of our other skincare brands which is really about like the next generation of skincare technologies it's always evolving it's always looking at new now new doesn't mean better because if you went into a pharmacy and you saw a painkiller which was brand new 100 pounds you'd probably be like why am I going to buy that because I know paracetamol works it's safe it's effective and it's going to cost me like 50p so new doesn't always mean better when there's actually something there but also new is a way that you can kind of like look at different technologies and actually we looked a lot into pharmacy to say all of these ingredients exist and some of these ingredients have been around for decades but just like paracetamol it doesn't mean they're bad like these are some of the most effective trusted skincare ingredients out there so actually let's just make them transparent like let's tell the consumer like this is the ingredient this is the percentage let's make it accessibly priced because the reality is those ingredients there's there's no patents anymore because they've all expired and therefore they can be manufactured anywhere which means the cost prices come all the way down then we also had efficiencies so you'll notice like most of our you know the packaging like the glass bottles they all share the same so actually it's just a new label so there was so many efficiencies we made through the production process too but interestingly I think about that it's an efficiency but that's one of the great things about the brand it gave the brand a look and a feel yeah that everything was uniform but actually for you it was an efficiency that's really clever well and I find the aesthetics really interesting because you know it seems a very simple design except simple so complex like I remember the the the creative team going through so like you'll never believe how many shades of white there are until you're trying to pick the pantone for the white of the box because actually like it makes such a difference but actually the design also the fact it was kind of you it was you know we really believe the ordinary is a brand for everyone like there is a product it doesn't matter like your age your gender like who you are like there's something for you and again I think before then a lot of beauty brands were they were designed with an age group in mind with a gender in mind and actually that's not what skincare is about and because again we took a much more like this pharmaceutical approach and then applied it to skincare so Brandon at this time was you you were co-ceos would you call it yeah he was co and I was co-ceo and effectively you know Brandon so he studied computer science so he saw the world very much in black and white like he was a kind of tech person and and interestingly the reason he got into beauty was because during tech he he did a um like a university scholarship in a big beauty company where he designed a software program where they could effectively see which um ingredients would work and which wouldn't and it was in there where he saw the cost price of of some products but he couldn't understand why like the margin on an eye cream was so much bigger than something like a facial cleanser and he was kind of told well it's just marketing it's like what the consumer wants to pay and he was like no sure like in his mind it was you know this is the price and then you add the markup and kind of the margin would be standard uh when actually like you know typically out there an eye serum for most brands well it would have the highest thing because you've got such a small milliliter whereas actually even like like cleansers are really hard because actually you've got such a big volume and it's got good ingredients in there so actually just the size can really make a big difference in pricing yet the consumer's prepared to pay much more for an nicer than they are for a cleanser so there's actually like these nuances which makes sense but like when you're coming from a black and white world you're like that doesn't seem fair to the consumer so that's kind of what spiked his interest really in coming into the beauty industry so that's interesting he and you had a similar way of thinking from the get-go you know you're like hang on a minute I want to do this in a nice way and he's thinking hang on a minute the consumer's getting ripped off here yeah and I feel like that's we've always put the consumer first but like with Brandon like he he just had so much inner good like he wanted to make the world a better place and not be a scam and like and you know I think it's what was a shame I think there was a lot of people that were skeptical about skincare yes and you know we he Brandon actually had a great quote around you know like airplanes fly in the sky like you think before that was possible like it would blow your mind that someone would say that's possible and like everyone accepts because you can believe it yet you know people don't really think like a serum can improve their skin even though actually that's like a much easier thing than making an airplane take people into the sky yes oh my god wait you've just blown my mind a bit there that's quite that's quite funny i haven't really thought about that so like somebody going yes planes can fly and then somebody else going this ingredient really does work in this serum you think yeah whatever i've got to say I have been super cynical about skincare in the past I was very like the people that you were referencing earlier yeah it's funny that isn't it yeah and I think because for so long I think people did overpay yes we were a bit angry about that yeah and I also think people were over promised so like one of the things that we were very um particularly in the early days like we and we've we've kind of got into it a little bit more recently but particularly in the early early days we didn't do before and afters like we tried to stay away from that because too often and if we do do like we always use our own people like we don't use models because i think people sell an unrealistic expectation and like everyone's skin is different and it's going to react differently yes and also like there's so much on like usage consistency like you know when you do a clinical trial it's being used perfectly that's not the reality at home when people forget one and like maybe they use too much they don't use the right amount so we always try to lean much more with like just the science and you know with the pricing of the ordinary if someone spends seven pounds on the serum like their expectations were already much lower yes then they see it works and they're like wow like that's really now working i want to go and like layer up and kind of build my regime whereas when someone's spending 70 pounds they're expecting the world because they're spending that they're seeing like this gorgeous hollywood actress like christie turlington Exactly, like they think that's going to be the outcome.

32:00So I think, again, it was like just this new approach around like, again, just being more honest, being like, this is good skincare. Like, it's not going to change you, but like hopefully it will like you'll see those improvements in your texture and like the things that we can address. I'm excited because I'm going to introduce you to my new show sponsor, Ancient and Brave. I love a secret weapon. Well, this isn't really a secret because I've been banging on about it for years. It's collagen and more specifically, ancient and brave, true collagen. It's been part of my routine for years and it's completely tasteless, odeless and dissolves in anything.

32:39Coffee, tea, smoothies, even just water. But this is why I swear by it. Collagen levels naturally decline as we get older. I know, I know, it's so unfair. and that basically affects everything skin hair joints muscles you name it but true collagen helps keep everything strong supported and glowing but what really sets them apart is that they're a b corp and members of the one percent for the planet which means that one percent actually now two percent of all their sales goes directly to environmental causes that protect our planet So if you fancy giving it a go, here's a little secret for you.

33:22Get 20 % off your first order at ancientandbrave.earth slash planet using my code BEGIN AGAIN. All in one word. Starting something new can be a bit terrifying, can't it? Whether it's a business, a side hustle, or just finding the courage to share ideas online. The actual hardest part is often taking that first step. Our sponsor, Adobe Express, the quick and easy create anything app turns Where Do I Begin into Look What I Just Did. With customisable templates and powerful features like generative AI, it makes creating everything from social posts to presentations feel so simple. If 2025 is the year you're finally saying yes to your big ideas.

34:11In fact, let's say 2025 is the year you're saying yes to your big ideas. Adobe Express makes it so easy to just jump right in. And it's free. So no excuses. Head to adobe.com slash UK slash Express or search in your phone's app store to give it a go. It's that easy. so obviously Brandon is a I mean he sounds like a brilliant guy he sounds like a maverick yeah really exciting and fun to be around so when did you first start noticing that something was a bit off with him and what what changed um so again similar to my dad it was he was very quick kind of towards the end and you know I think there's an element of when you see like geniuses and entrepreneurs like I think there are many who are potentially on like the spectrum because I feel like their brains are that they're different they think differently yeah they are just constantly thinking and pushing boundaries and like their brain never switches off so I feel like there's always this fine line between like it's almost like between like genius and I don't know if it's insanity or like what that is but like they kind of like balance this away through which is what makes them so special I think that's quite an interesting thing I've always looked at people who were super clever as being in some way um disadvantaged um that that that friends of mine who were very very clever always struggled in some way it sounds like brandon had a slightly different type of mind yeah so brandon's mind was like his knowledge of science and you know we would he would drop me off at you know 10 p.m and he'd pick me up the next morning at 7am and he's already read like 10 papers on an ingredient and looked at this and this and I'm like whoa like I just went to sleep and woke up so like that was his mind and like his level of understanding and and so he really was like the product development and kind of like he was that creative genius then I think I was the person where I was setting up the offices doing the distribution like looking after the team like kind of building that side of it so I think it was a good balance and I think also because again Brandon probably some similarities to my dad but like Brandon was the kind of person where people could always be scared of him but it was interesting because I never felt that but I felt it on behalf of the team yes um do you think that's because you're super honest because I always think that people I I worked at models one when I was a teenager and my boss was quite scary but he never was scary to me because if I messed up I just go oh, I've messed up, can you help me?

36:57Yeah. Rather than try and hide your mess up because you're a bit scared. Yeah. And then you go, why have you hidden the mess up now? I can't help you. Yeah. That kind of thing. Yeah, I probably think, yeah, like the honesty, just the owning up. And I think the fact that I'm very calm and probably also like he knew, and not that anyone who makes mistakes means to be like, I always just approach everything with like doing my best. But you see with Brandon, like he, and you know, it's interesting because like the world's also changed a lot. Yes. I often say to like a few of the team members who, you know, spend a lot of time around the two, I'd love to see what he would be like in today's world.

37:33Like he was a workaholic and I remember at one point, so in Canada, the standard time off you get is 10 days, like two weeks. It's crazy in America, isn't it? In Canada, it's like the... Oh my gosh, how do you live? And maternity leave is what, how long? Like three months. Three months. Canada's better for that, sorry. US is that but yeah the the the like legal standard for baking for holiday is 10 days a year mad but I remember being in Brenda's office and and um our HR person came and she was like someone's like asking for more holiday he's like who who was asking for more time mom because he was you know just this like we should get in a startup like everyone and again like I think we were fortunate that like back then like most of us we we didn't have families we were all in our 20s and yes we live we like lived it breather like yes we wanted to work the evenings and weekends because we were all so engaged and and you know also like everyone had options in the company so everyone kind of felt like they owned it and everyone knew we were like building this together and like this is so exciting and you know I see things like that so like people were kind of like oh or you know if you saw something he didn't like he'd be like who designed this you'd see everyone like they're flying yeah you can't be like that so I feel like I was always kind of the you know it's kind of like them probably playing the role of my mum I've just been like calming things smooth and things kind of playing the mediator in some roles did you ever look the idea with him about having some time off or you know could you see him burning out a bit or

39:09you see it's interesting with with with with bar nine and i think in general actually like the work-life balance and and again i think one thing that i'm always respectful for is like everyone chooses what works for them for work-life balance and for me like i loved my i would have hated to work my my 20s in somewhere that was nine till five because actually like i don't have that many hobbies like for me like I loved it like you know when you're so passionate about something like I want to live and breathe it every every day and it's interesting because now kind of where we where we are now with with Desi and like I know who I'm talking to so like some of those early team members and now like you know we all because because we're all the same age we know all have kids like we've kind of gone through like the the life stages together that for example like I've always loved the flexibility that if my kids are in bed and Sean's out and I'm at home I want to work because actually if that means that then the next day I'll take Luca to a swimming lesson and I'll have like the time off when it matters to me.

40:07So I feel like balance can be a really good thing if it works for you. And I also have a lot of respect for the people who are like, I want to work nine till five and switch off and actually don't come to me, don't communicate, I don't want to think about it. but Brandon's someone like he his everything was was work and actually one of the things that I knew we were like his family but the thing that really hit me was when he passed away and then we we saw his his will every single person in there was a decim employee and that is how much of a family it was so like when you know people do you guys not know that no no I'd never seen I mean but I guess like I also but it didn't surprise me because I knew like we were his life like and and again it's it's so hard to explain because when I talk about it it sounds like a cult and it was but like I was happy to be in the cult like you know we were like I think business I think I've heard Stephen say this I think a business I mean I'm using like the word cult obviously is not a very positive one but it's got to be a team but that's so tight and so together and so supportive of each other that I get that but there's something it's really interesting learning something about someone after they've died yeah and and from a will so what you're saying it was mostly work people not family but you see we were his family yeah but did he have family it was complicated like his his mum passed away his father was a little like he was he wasn't close to any of his any of his family but again what was interesting was a lot of stuff I learned it's so strange because I felt like I was like we were best friends and and we were and like you know when you know someone but then you don't know them but you still know them and just to give you examples for like I didn't know he had a partner now and and like this is we've been like eight years of like inseparable together and I'd go to you know we'd be traveling we'd always be together and like he would never you know I feel like in the early few months you'd maybe like try about like oh you know you're dating and there'd be no and then there was just never any conversation after then so I kind of just assumed you know like he'd tell you if he'd met someone or yeah he's kind of just on his own or whatever but he'd actually had a partner who worked at desium but i didn't even know this because i was just kind of i don't know you you don't question i guess like when you have that why didn't he tell you because i think he i don't think he wanted to discuss his sexuality and you see he was he was from iran where actually like being gay isn't isn't really something that's accepted and i think it's something that one of the things and i actually feel like this is very topical at the moment because I can't believe how many companies are getting rid of like DE &I, diversity, equity and inclusion.

43:13Yes. For me, like it was something the world had actually made progress with. And when I look a lot about what happened with Brandon, I think pre-Decian, I think the world had made him feel like he didn't belong. Like he couldn't ever be who he truly was. Yes. And, you know, maybe that's because of childhood, like growing up in a country where like something wasn't accepted had made him feel that way so when I look at Desiem we are the most diverse company I think you would ever meet which I love and I think also a lot of that was probably you know Brandon's push in the early days like it wasn't even an active push but like I just look back and I'm like gosh like we are such a beautiful just blend of humans where and like we always say as a company our North Star's belonging like for us the most important thing is that any of our team can just come and be who they are and show up and and I find like that is what's so nice about humans like having different experiences different people yes all being human and the fact that companies are starting to to move away from something which I feel like was actually good progress just I feel feels a bit sad because I think it will lead more people like how Brandon felt that like he couldn't be himself like he couldn't show up what's sad about brandon is what i'm seeing is a man who was nearing on genius level amazing interpersonal skills um a great businessman full of energy loved life but had a relationship with somebody at work that he couldn't tell anybody about that he couldn't show i wonder how much tension that brought to his partner you know between him like why can't we be out at the office why can't we i don't know whether that would have happened that you didn't know something that he couldn't open himself up fully to you that's not being yourself I would say is the biggest weight in the world to carry isn't it and especially because like um hopefully you're you you're realizing but like I feel like I'm the most open loving person to any humans why couldn't you know it's not even like he had to hide it from someone who maybe he would think would have like a different opinion of anything other than acceptance but I also think it's hard maybe once you just keep going and it's not even like he was living a lie I don't know maybe he was but I think at some point it probably all just it's gonna take its toll on your brain of course to to kind of be living that way for for so long but you see the other thing and like the thing with Brandon again like when it comes down to brains like it's so hard to diagnose like what happened like the chicken and the air kind of how it all came together but towards the end of 2017 and so again remember the we we started decim 2013 the ordinary launched at the end of 2016 so it was going mad so like i mean from the get-go the ordinary just went bang right yeah it exploded crazy at decim um so yeah so towards the end of 2017 brandon had again like i think this is a again maybe another common theme I think and this kind of level of geniuses with like high brain activity he got intrigued by by drugs but by this I'm talking about magic mushrooms because this is something yeah where it's kind of like it's due with the brain it's due with creativity it's about actually how can I kind of explore different different parts of my brain and again like until this point you know with Brandon he he didn't even drink alcohol like he was a diet coke french fries just kind of a um so he'd never experimented with drugs or alcohol or anything i mean he'd have like an occasional glass of wine uh like he was like 10 years older than me so like early 30s wow um you know he'd have a glass of wine if we were at supplier dinner and like he felt like he had to but never from choice like he'd always just prefer a diet coke um so anyway it was but again like he wanted to go to amsterdam to do it where it was legal so like he was a maverick in many ways but he also didn't want to like break the rules or get and get in trouble so he wanted to go to like amsterdam and just kind of explore the idea of your brain so that's so i feel like it started very innocently which i think it often can do did you notice a difference in him after the first time that he took that did he have a psychotic episode that first time on psilocybin or was it something that built it's a difficult one because like I saw changes but not in it so like and this is just a silly example like but he became vegan and like it was just things were like and that's not to say I don't know there were like changes where he'd been quite consistent in the way he was so I could tell like things were changing in in his brain but nothing from like a worrying perspective right but the thing with Brandon you know his his whole brain was addictive but in the best possible like when I say he dropped me off and he just spent the whole night researching yes like he was addicted to work yes to subjects get into something and just go forensic in the best way that like I think makes an entrepreneur and kind of makes that type of person but obviously the downside of that is when your personality is like that and you're doing it with an addictive substance then I think that kind of path starts to starts to unwind so I feel like that this kind of all started the last couple of months of of 2017 and also within this so we just got investment from estate lauder companies and like it just felt like something's really going to happen here um so we kind of just got this investment and then and obviously this then happened with brandon so then it was over the christmas period and he he wanted to go and just kind of explore and he told me he was going to like do go to some extremes because again what does that look like the amount of what he was taking oh okay so that's also interesting so he's gone from trying it a bit and then he's like okay i'm going full whack yeah but again like it was coming from a like a good intention oh so i get what you're saying what he's trying to do is to be superhuman it open his mind yeah not escape something no he's not escaping a bad life or a trauma or no he's okay and that's what like it came i'm not like taking criticism but like he was coming from like a good heart of like he just wanted to like be better making creative like kind of have these new thoughts and stuff do you know why i think this is quite good to talk about because i've we've talked about psilocybin a little bit on on this podcast already and about quite a bit about the benefits i've talked to professor david nutt about that and um I talked to a wonderful woman about um taking it and it helped her realize that she wanted to help women and but we haven't discussed um what happens when you are someone who is maybe a bit vulnerable mentally um to something and you start thinking that you would love to take enormous amounts because you've got one of those brains that yeah kind of is is vulnerable but also adaptive but also you love that kind of deep thought but then there's an edge isn't there there's a point yeah and I think it is so true because it can like out of all the drugs it feels like they they get celebrated and like of course there is so much research and like there are likely benefits of like the micro dosing but if someone's an extreme personality and it goes to the extreme then things change and things happen so so that was kind of the new year and overnight it was an entirely different person he became and I remember I was in Australia me and my husband we've gone to Australia and New Zealand for Christmas New Year and then because I had meetings there in the beginning of January I remember it was like January 2nd and he was just like go straight to the airport go and buy a first class flight it doesn't matter how much it costs go to the airport he was like just get your passport just leave everything else like it doesn't matter turn your emails off like we're gonna slow down and just meet me in Toronto and I'm someone I'm like okay but I'm in hot weather you're like I need to just sort things and you know we've always been frugal and like now you're telling me to just go and book a first class to get and did he sound normal no but i instantly knew you knew it changed and it is interesting because even though like i can't really put my finger on any like specific examples before i'd actually been getting headaches which i never do and i i think it was like stress headaches of just knowing something was changing and again like i'm someone who's like you know never even smoked weed like i don't haven't done that well so for me i'm like gosh like drugs are scary any other drugs at the same time no nothing just the psilocybin just this at this point um and when i got to toronto he he it's like he'd gone yeah it was like this cold like he was so warm like oh like he'd be there at the airport to pick me up he'd open the car door you know he was just someone who was just like so good so warm he cared so much about like his team because like I said like the the decim team like we were family we went through everything together like so to suddenly be with someone when it was like this this coldness but then again he'd start to say things where you know he was like we don't you don't need it we don't need time anymore like we'll just say I'll meet you in the morning in a coffee shop and we'll just bump into each other like let's not let time and I'm like okay but what time are you going to be there you know and then like he said about phones like he was going to get rid of his phone because we don't need phones it's too much communication and he's saying things where because he's such a genius and I remember like ringing Sean being like gosh like he's saying these things like and Sean's your husband my husband I'm like is it just next level genius of like you know because you try and keep up with someone's thinking in this way I mean you're like no actually like that doesn't make sense of course we need time like how can we get by if we don't have time so you kind of like trying to balance this just because I've never seen a human change so quickly what would you call it a psychotic break or where someone's literally just gone it's like he'd left his body he was cold it was it was like he was vacant and it was just so difficult to understand what had happened and then i mean everyone was petrified because one it's scary seeing someone you love like this but then again this is someone who is very powerful has can like have outbursts can raise his voice so you have all of these mixed emotions and you know he summoned a few of us to one of our stores in in toronto which is when he said you know like the company's growing too fast like we should slow down but again like this was we'd kind of done everything together and then suddenly it was kind of just this like he was like I'm decided this and we're gonna stop this and do all these changes oh and you'd always been you'd always been a team yeah together so I was like okay this is this is strange but like I'm have to kind of just figure out how to to get through this and and then like the next few months it was just like so insane how someone it changed and it was all on instagram it was very public and so then so in the middle of february so this was kind of five or six weeks and he just we had done a brand partnership with someone and he cancelled it on instagram without even telling this person that their brand had just like ended so I was just like that's like really hurting people now so and I was like oh that's so not what you are about yeah you can't I'm all up for doing things in a new way and like being disruptive but like there's also just respect and kindness that like are values that we should never really um compromise on so I kind of like I said look like something and it's strange because until then like i'd been too scared to even address with him that like something was wrong because like even i i was fearful of just like not really understanding how how much change had happened um and again maybe like being so in awe of someone's genius that you're kind of so like gosh like is this maybe this is a plan yeah maybe like this is the good yeah yeah you still see sparks of that within there but i think the kindness is really what had gone which was which was a big shot so then he fired me in in the February uh because effectively I'd started to be like things aren't okay which again like he wasn't allowed to do that without like everyone else being involved I was like okay I'm just out of this situation which is maybe like a good thing for for a little bit and and again like I'd you know I'd married my husband like a couple of years before but I'd always because I was working so crazy I was like we can wait like a little bit longer until we have children so at this point I was like okay I'm out so actually I really want a child so like let's just try and have a baby so we were like super lucky that it happened like more or less straight away so I fell pregnant so then I was suddenly in like my personality is two parts I'm either I do a day of work and I'm like I'm like I want this career and I want to do businesses and then I'll be at like a church playgroup singing hop little bunny hop hop with my child and I'm like I want to be a stay-at-home mum like I'm like both extremes I was exactly the same I was either just work non-stop or I don't ever want to work again yeah but I feel like each day I'm like depending which day it is yeah that's so funny I bet lots of mums relate to that yeah and like you know you know it's such a small period of your life and it's such a small period of their lives too you know where they're really little so it's like hey we can have a baby so got pregnant and we like went away we went to like Ibiza for a couple of months um but then and again in this time like it's difficult because I'm seeing everything play out and like the team is still every single day like we're in contact and I'm seeing how bad things are getting but like it's difficult I mean like everyone was powerless like the best thing everyone could do was just try and do their role in this quiet company going quietly yeah um but it's difficult when everything was so publicly played out so then um so I felt pregnant late March and then in the eight and maybe like end of April early May like I just remember like Brendan ringing me he was crying he was like begging me to come back and just feeling like because again this is someone I love like and this isn't just a colleague this is someone who like I see as like a best friend and we've been through so much I was like okay I don't know if I can help but I can't do anything on the outside so at least let me go back and see like what I could do and in my head I was like you know our baby's due at the end of December so I've got the easiest get out if if if it doesn't work and I can't do anything then like I've got something else to look forward to and but even that you see I told I told Brandon quite early on I was pregnant because he was also like there it was Instagram posts, he would tag whoever, there'd be lawyers, it'd just be like this kind of crazy world.

59:11And again, knowing what he was a good human he was, I was like, look, if I just tell him, like, look, I'm pregnant, I'm kind of just out of this now. But then he posted on Instagram that I was pregnant when I was like eight weeks pregnant and we hadn't even told anyone. But even like that is something that isn't him. So it's so difficult to even explain. And like naivety on my side to even think he, but again like because you just hope the person's in there that you hope that actually like you might respect that yeah yeah um were you devastated i don't know if devastated like i was devastated by the situation by him and but even in that you know like he was so much like i was pregnant i was happy i had a husband i had a life like okay I didn't want it on Instagram before we told anyone but when someone else is suffering so much all I cared about was kind of like him and the team and like just this this crisis that we were in can I also just point out something that I'm seeing at the moment is that you had this idyllic meeting with him starting the businesses really exciting everybody in the same loving environment deciem caring kind maverick we're going to then suddenly the ordinary estee lauder mega everything then the stress that started at that point and i always think when you're carrying a baby you become a different person because you are safeguarding someone else's life inside your life and the amount of stress that must have been landing on you even though you're happy and you've got your husband but this must have been an incredibly hard time for you while you are making a baby yeah and it's weird because like I I didn't feel it because I think I was just so I was worried more about Brandon and the team and the situation we were in and I was like I was very busy because it was kind of like gosh like what are we going to do because again like not only was this happening but the ordinary was going like this because even though this chaos was there like the so it hadn't affected the business and the the business was exploding almost because of it because again like it was it was news publicity it was publicity like people were talking like have you seen this on instagram have you seen this brand have you seen this founder like people were like watching it unfold but they were also like they make amazing skincare like have you tried so that's so nuts yeah so then you have like you're scaling like it and like because we do all of our own manufacturing we're building a new factory like you're trying to like do all of this and and again I think maybe what helped at times was like Brandon was traveling a lot so actually I think there was like big periods of time where like he wasn't seeing the team that often and we were lucky that we also had some really strong people in the business who were kind of like carrying it through because again I think we were lucky because we had the history with Brandon that like he was like you know everyone's everyone loved him and you know you you feel sorry for someone when they're in this situation so you were all giving him a bit of slack yeah and then at what point did it escalate to the point where you thought okay this this isn't okay anymore did were you all still hoping he's going to come back yeah well I remember the first time so he and like he posted this on on Instagram like he would post from like when he was sectioned in like different hospitals and like he was getting sectioned yeah i remember the first time it happened we were all relieved because we're like okay this is the turning point like he's gonna get the help and like you have that that hope and then he was out five days later but he was out feeling like see told you i'm like there's nothing wrong with me because they've let me go and it almost made it worse yes and then it was this cycle and i think what was difficult was the you know I think the drugs escalated into like then trying because again like and I say this is someone who's always kind of been too scared of drugs to to get in but I feel like when you have a feeling and you see that you can do things with your brain I suspect it like can make you like I want to try a new thing and it's like a spiral this addiction um you know that that that can go and so kind of it was all getting worse and that's what I say when it's I find it very difficult and I'm not a doctor and obviously that was his health but to to really know which bits were drugs which bits were mental health and and actually just the the correlation between the two because I think they both just spiral each other yeah I mean whenever I've had friends with mental health issues and they've got a drug problem it's just it's like fuel to the fire it's terrible terrible and what kind of what kind of additional drugs was he doing so he spoke about like I wasn't there so I didn't see to know but he spoke on on emails and on Instagram about things like taking crystal meth so I think so that's the worst exactly and I think there's probably things in between but when he started writing about about that it was kind of like oh gosh like game over I mean that's Really.

1:04:46Yeah Really dark place to go so if that's happening that must have created the end quite quickly well so this so the end came and like i have to say throughout this whole period like even the support we had from like the sal order companies like the investors like everyone was just because everyone loved him everyone was just like we just want him to get better but no one knows how to act in their situations and especially it's like a new dynamic when it's all playing out on instagram and social and you know any email you send any conversation will be posted like you know he'd be posted like the paramedics chasing him like it was just everything was being played out publicly which then gives you just as humans another level of fear because you kind of don't necessarily when you're thinking about helping it puts another thing behind you because you're like okay if I do this I'm probably going to get publicly attacked by him on social which whilst many people can see what's happening you know you you have comments you're you're putting yourself into a situation that you don't necessarily which is quite possibly what he wanted you know I can't get attacked because but they're now posting we were all like we were all scared um so then in the in early October so you know really kind of just nine months in he shut down the whole company and he basically said the stores are all shutting the factories um and and so like that was the point when then everyone had to step in so then a court order was applied to remove him now it was a temporary court order like the point was like he needs to just be removed for now so the company can survive because again we had 1500 employees like it's a lot of people relying on livelihoods on being paid and I think as well you struggle with we've shown him love we've shown him like you've tried all of these different angles and well it's an intervention of sorts you have to reach rock bottom so you're like okay maybe that will be the trigger to to wanting to get better and and and sadly it never was like he he never made it back and and I think that's one of the things that I struggle with because knowing how much we were his family I hate the feeling that that was taken away from him and like already he must have been so lonely so scared and actually that that mixture of it being work and like your best friends and everything in one it can be good in many in many ways but actually when it goes wrong I don't know I feel so sad and then so that was in October so then obviously that's when I got made soul CEO and I was seven months pregnant at that point oh my god so I'd gone from thinking like I wouldn't have kids until I stopped working and would like have all this time to then kind of being in this crisis situation but also just like it's double the work never any doubt because it's kind of like look we have to survive this because also we're protecting it for Brandon like we all thought he would get better like I don't think anyone ever thought it would end and again like end so quickly so yes you will want to make it work so it's there for him when he comes back god and there's like I can't believe the stress I mean I know you say you weren't stressed because you just had to do it but still that is difficult emotionally it's not that it's it's more the emotional weight of what was happening on you yeah it was emotional and I think the one thing I felt was almost this it was like the 24 7 anxiety yes not knowing the next phone call the next email the next post like the next where is he like what's like is he safe what's he doing so that was really hard um and then in in January he passed away and it's difficult to even know like no one was there that night to know what happened where was he he was at his home in Toronto in his condo and he came over the balcony now it's difficult to know like I do not believe for a second that he that was suicide that night because he had too much to say like he always had 10 words for one and especially in that moment like if it was he'd have written an email he'd have done a video like he would have marked his last moments so I very much don't believe he intended to take his life at night whether he had substances and he thought he could fly or you know he was very like maybe sat on the balcony it was just such a windy night in Toronto like it took him off balance like no one knows anything other than like he was on his own and he came over the balcony um but you see i also sometimes wonder i find it interesting because he updated his the last time he updated his will was at the end of 2017 so like just before he started this journey journey and again i think like was it a long suicide in terms of a choice of like actually the ordinary was getting big and like a big business is stressful like because again like he he was the genius of of creativity formulations like I can't even say enough words about what a genius he was but he didn't like the headaches of people a big organization you know forecasting like all of the things that naturally come with rowing maybe like hiding who he was for so long like I don't know sometimes I wonder like was it an out but again like I generally do think it just started with a exploring creativity is it is it really hard after someone's gone the the how the why so I think for me like one of the things and and I feel like in many ways I still haven't stopped to process a lot of it so when Brendan passed away like my daughter Mila was three weeks old so she was three weeks old brendan had gone the company had just been through chaos as well as like growing and i think it was so busy like mila went to toronto when she was four weeks old because we we obviously went to to to saw brendan's funeral and then like her first year of life she was in toronto once a month like my mum would come and i feel like because life was so busy you kind of never stop to actually really think through what happened and actually i'm grateful because i think for me that was probably the best way to deal with grief was actually just being busy because again like it's i can't diagnose what was wrong mental health like i didn't know all the drugs he did like no one knows that but him well and even he probably didn't know exactly what was happening in his brain so all you can do is really go on like your experience what what you've seen what you felt and but it's just I just find it so sad because I'm like well with him and my dad I'm like what a bloody waste of life like for two people that just had so much personality so much character had so much more to give and to both die at such a young age like my dad was 48 Brandon was 41 I'm like that's nothing like you're not even halfway through like life and but then I'm also like I think they both probably had more suffering than I could ever imagine or ever know in their brains and actually getting up and dealing with that on a daily basis particularly in a world where it wasn't as open about mental health and I actually think another the thing and I say this with no science or any knowledge but I actually think we also I think some people really severely suffer like I'm trying to say that I think we need a term where we all have mental health like we all have brains we all have how we're feeling but I think the people that are really struggling we need to be careful that in a way we don't dilute the term mental health because actually for people where it's so severe like it needs a different type of acceptance and like as a society as a world like we're still not ready to treat it like I remember my dad like we couldn't get him into a rehab because he didn't want to and we didn't have any control on that like Brendan got a few times it was like there but like he was straight out as soon as he could like and I don't know what the answer is because obviously you have we're also great that we're in a world where we have freedom and free will so I don't really know what the answers are yet but I feel like there's still a lot more to really understand the brain health because I think if it's not dealt with then when you maybe do reach this point and maybe an addiction or something comes into your life like it is just the end it is quite interesting how the two I mean obviously apart from Sean but the two biggest male figures in your life both came to addiction later yeah and it went very quickly naught to 60 and neither of them were prepared to stop or not prepared but had the desire to stop even though they could see the carnage unfolding around them but you see I also think they were both proud people and I don't know how they would have felt like I think it must be so hard to be in that space and like acting in a different way to who you had been and I don't know like coming out of it and like especially for like brandon when everything was out on instagram and then it was on youtube it was on tiktok like i feel like that's a lot to like then i don't know like come out of that cycle and see everything where maybe you weren't i don't know i don't know how that you deal with that yeah and it's i i mean being a former addict myself i'm always fascinated by what how come i wanted to get clean and how come so many of my friends didn't and what is the thing I'm not sure about tough love anymore do you know Johan Hari no I'm going to send you his book okay um and uh well I met him because he wrote a book about addiction and um how to help addicts and it it triggered me in an enormous way because I was like god this is sort of not anything that I've known or learned through getting clean but I'll send it to you yeah um but I just I feel so frustrated for you and your loss of the these two giants in your life and how annoying it is so I'm going to turn it on its head I think a little bit and I'm going to ask you what you've learned what have you taken from losing these two men in your life and how can you make something good out of that so I'll tell you what I've learned and then also what I haven't learned what I would still like to learn so I think what I've learned is I think one thing is around with with my with my dad and Brandon like I'm so aware of the people suffering around and I think actually one of the things since I've spoken a little bit about this this topic was the amount of people that reached out and who are the family of someone suffering and I think they need support too and I think they often aren't because again there's still a little bit of a stigma around when it is addiction people think it's a choice and whilst the first time may have been a choice eventually it's not a choice and it is an addiction um but I think like I guess I've learned that I guess it's made me who I am in terms of like I'm fiercely independent like I'm really a bit of a control freak because I think in areas when you can't control things you're then like I need to control what I can control yes but what I haven't learned and which is something that I really want to learn more on I hate this feeling that if I was in this situation again which fingers crossed i never act yeah i don't know what you can do differently yes i don't know at which point is it the signs is it the signals because no one actually has much advice and actually most of the advice is that there's so little you can do yes for that person everyone like i remember like with brandon we kept saying like you just have to wait for them to reach rock bottom but like sometimes that never actually comes well sometimes rock bottom is death and then it's too late and I think rock sometimes people try and speed up by rock bottom by doing something awful or or cruel and sometimes that can feel like a really difficult thing too so it's very hard for families to understand but rock I think the problem the problem is somebody has to want to get clean and what is going to be the thing that triggers them to want to do that and you don't know and you might never know and so you can't trigger them to get clean they are on their own and only they can do better um but i will for anybody watching this or listening to it um post somewhere all the um instagram accounts and email accounts for all the anonymous fellowships that do help families so um alanon is um for relatives of alcoholics and there's a gambling one there's a drug one so we can definitely try and help support families because even if someone's died if you were a relative or a friend of somebody that had a problem you can go and talk about your experiences with lots of other people who've gone through the same thing as you and I think that is fantastically supportive I think one of the problems that I feel like Brandon had was that he didn't have anyone yeah and that's what you found out kind of after he died yeah how few people he had around him yeah you didn't really know him but you knew him so well yeah I feel like he was someone there that had so much love in him and yeah I think he lost his mum when he was young which I think like would have had a big impact and just and and again like I do think for Brandon it really comes to like growing up and not feeling like you can be yourself or that you belong I think must be like the hardest thing to overcome and if you're broken in that way I think I don't know what it would take to take to repair but holding that kind of weight or that kind of secret like you said would be devastating and again like I think it's something where like for me like family is just so important yes and I think for someone to not really have that feeling of family must just be like incredibly hard in life I mean you have learned you know this this podcast is called begin again and you've done that again and again and again you know left well been fired and sort of thought right I'm going to be this person I'm going to start a family then gone back started again on that then learned how to be a parent and working so hard which is another begin again and now where are you at like are you you're still involved with SEM but to what level and what's next yeah so the at the end of last year I stepped down as CEO and that was something where I just I didn't want I didn't want to work as hard as I had been and you know I feel lucky and privileged that you know through everything we've built and you know when it's been like 12 years you're like actually it is time for me to step back a little bit more and also like I think I'm quick to recognize when I'm the right person for the role and when I'm not the right person for the role and you know Decium has grown to be the most phenomenal company but I was very lucky that you know I went to SA Lauder I asked for help we brought in an incredible general manager Jesper who actually is 10 times better than me running the business because you know when you get bigger like your supply chain like there is there are so many different things and and the reality is and one thing that I still wish I could change more but like those big jobs like that there's a big commitment and there's a big responsibility there's so much travel and it's hard to do that if you also want to be a present mum which is kind of what I also wanted to be so it's like actually it's just time for a change and again like I was grateful for the support from Stefan who's the new CEO of SEL order companies who's just like amazing and so supportive but I was like I want to kind of give up the responsibility and a lot of the work but like I'm not ready yet to give up the people because when I say we're like and again I don't like it when all companies say family but like there are so many of us because again you think what we went through like resilience like a team that goes through trauma like you bond like no other and like it is like another child um so you know we I'm in a role now where like I'm still involved as co-founder where you know I'll be involved in like brand direction advice like doing the people stuff doing some kind of PR telling our story but it means I don't have to do the day-to-day now like I don't have to like do the calls on forecast supply chain and all of these other things that come with that role which for me is like this perfect balance now of like um like I want to be at the pickup every day like you know I want to do all of those things with my kids and and kind of be there and and then I also want to like start looking at some new projects because I think for me like it is this balance of I like being hyper focused mum for half the week but then I also like to have like other interesting things meet interesting people do stuff so for me it's kind of looking at what that what that looks like in the in the next few months so might I be interviewing you again in a few years about your next absolutely mega business that would be quite good wouldn't it I would be cool oh my god how exciting I feel like I'm always oh gosh we could do this we could do this yes do this but again like life's different and you know you also want different things and I you know I I'm so happy that I I kind of did what I did in my 20s but I also read a thing the other day about someone saying that they never see a relaxed woman and it really got to me because I was like actually women are all like because we're always so busy like we're being a mum like we're doing all of these things but then they see relaxed men so I was also I want to be a relaxed woman too so I actually like planning these times in and actually making sure that you just take time to actually do other things you enjoy I heard you say that and you were talking about when you're saying about a relaxed man like a guy will go and play golf or have a hobby or something I don't have a hobby I've talked about this before and you don't really have a hobby your hobby was work yeah or being with the kids yeah and then my kids have grown up now my hobbies just work and I've I've started playing the piano again I've started singing I'm trying to do other things for me yeah because I didn't do it for 23 years but again like I think that's one of the great things about life that like like when I was like looking at all your fitness stuff and I'm like and by the way I actually remember probably being about eight years old and like doing the divina with my mum on on the tv but you know like I'm like gosh like I want your figure like I want to do that but you know and I'm like gosh once the kids are at school like yeah you have got time like you have to pick and at the moment for me like any free time I have like if the kids aren't at school like I want to be with them like when the kids are at school like that's the time and then I'll like do work and stuff and like pick other things but again like you don't have to be everything in one period like if you have kids or you have a dependent parent or someone like that takes so much time from you though like it is okay to not do it all because you're gonna have another chapter where you are gonna be like me and Sean talk about holidays at the moment like hey like where will the kids be because there's no point it's going for like long lunches wanting to read a book like we have two young children like that isn't our holiday at the moment yeah but in another 20 years time we will be like probably bored on the beach reading books and so one thing is like my brain doesn't switch off and like that's the thing that I've learned about like my husband's always like you just need to go relax but if I have a massage I'm like okay when's this done because I've got like things to do the one thing that I've started learning in the last few years which I really love is skiing because I didn't ski growing up I didn't grow up in a ski family but I really want my kids to so anyway I like started having lessons but I love it because actually like do you ski at all I I skied a little bit when I was little with my mum but it was kind of mad yeah and I have done it a couple of times as I got older but my partner love skiing I've got to be honest I am terrified of injury and I don't bounce anymore I mean you're you're at an age where you still bounce yeah do you love it I love it because like when and like I say I love it like I'm still like mainly on green slopes and stuff which is just great but that's nice I'm like I can't check my phone like all I'm thinking is about like parallel or like how I'm getting down and like the fresh air being out like you know Milo our six-year-old's like skiing with us now so i feel like you know when you start to find something which actually like is a way to relax for me yes but it's finding those things because like yeah i feel like my brain is active and like i mean not anywhere near to the level of brandon but i don't switch off like i think about things all the time and you know i'm lucky my husband's an entrepreneur too he's got his own business it's quite nice so you're in the same it's great but it's also a nightmare because like we'll both be together and be like oh like we could do this we could do this we could do this we could do this like he's bought the village pubs and i'm like oh gosh we did we do not need any more projects but like you kind of can't stop yourself and then again like I go back to this like oh like I want my kids to see a relaxed woman but then I'm like it's okay not to be relaxed as long as you're having fun and like enjoying what you do and loving what you do and I think for me the only thing I've ever craved in life is freedom like freedom just to like do what I want to do like on my terms buy what I want go where I want and and for me that's like everything to life was building up to and again part of this chapter of like giving up the CEO responsibility but doing this is again just like a bit more freedom now where you know like being a CEO for a big company like it's a lot of weight on your shoulders like and I still feel responsible still in my role but it's it's it's slightly different um so yeah I feel very happy about the next chapter one last thing I want to ask you is that I do feel like you have bossed being a mum and that you are balanced and you have a good outlook on it have you got any advice or help I mean advice I would say for companies that are starting that are trying to provide a friendly welcoming inclusive place for parents to work because I think when you become a parent everything changes I loved working I had a baby I looked at this baby and I went oh my god where's my ambition gone yeah and then as they've got older I've really started to love working again because they don't want to be with me or need to be with me all the time um how how can companies support parents yeah and how can you manage you wanting to work and be a parent how what are the best things to do so actually like the one thing I'm so grateful for so when I had Mila so we had Stephen Kaplan was our COO yeah an incredible incredible human like just so kind-hearted in his 60s I remember like obviously you know Mila was three weeks old and he just said to me like my kids have left home like I have nothing to do but work I will cover for you like I will do the extra spreadsheets like I will anything I can take off your plate I will do like and enjoy it and for me I was like wow what a sense of community and I wish it could work more because like you know ultimately like those years particularly when your child's like under five but you know rarely through school like it is different but like when I was in my 20s like I was happy to do everything and I feel like the more that you know we can support each other as humans and it's not competition it's not trying to take someone's role it's like actually in my life right now I can give 110 % in my life right now I can give 70 % but the way we could actually like cover for each other to actually just allow people to have that time like I think is is really important and something really nice the other thing that I just quickly want to say something there because I'm just thinking about the people that would go well I don't want to have kids so why should I cover for someone that's having kids and so what what I sometimes think with things like that look if you don't want to cover for somebody because you don't want to have kids then don't yeah don't do it you're fine but for somebody that does understand or would like to cover but I guess it's a it's fostering um a type of workplace where this is the norm yeah and again it's it's kind of like accepting you can be either but just making sure there's enough of each so like if you just want to be your like always 100 % like you don't worry about anyone else but like if you can be someone who pays it forward so that maybe then at that time there's someone else paying it forward or you know but again like maybe then you're going to have a dependent parent like there's different stages in your life it might not even be children where like you can't give your all and if you've that support network and that community which I think it was like probably easier when everyone was in the office like it's harder like the more kind of remote work there is what do you think about remote work so I'm like torn on it because like as a mother it's it's much easier like you can drop them off like be on zoom and do it I worry about females because I read a study and it was saying around like there's like proximity bias so ultimately the more you're face to face with someone like the more chances you are of promotion and also like creativity conversations like it's never quite the same on zoom and when you give someone like the full choice about remote working typically we're finding that particularly mums are choosing to work from home men are choosing to go into the office like four days a week five days a week and what you have to be really careful of is that we're not getting offices filled with men whilst the women are at home because actually women have like gender equality has come on so much but that's a real risk particularly for mums so i think you have to find a way where like i mean i think the whole working week's ridiculous by the way monday to friday nine till five like this was from the henry ford era where you used to have like the traditional female at home that did all the jobs just one in the household went to work like you can't have a household of two people both working full-time and then expecting to like raise a child like look after the house like it just doesn't work like unless you can outsource all the help you need so I think in general it needs looking at but I think with remote working you should try and so I actually heard from a lot of women they like it when they're forced into the office like even if it's just two days a week because actually we all have this guilt of like being a mom like there's so much that needs doing that you're like oh well if I'm at home like I could do a wash I could kind of do this other whereas they like getting into the office but not feeling guilty like they could have done differently and equally with men trying to force them to have a couple of days at home too so that we're not getting back to a boys club which I think is like a danger of the workplace yeah I hadn't thought about it like that that's really interesting yeah you've just literally expanded that so that I've totally seen what's happening yeah we are going back to home to be a mum yeah and again it is balancing because gosh like the if you are a working mum like the flexibility is is so useful but equally like the men aren't choosing that the men are still choosing to go in yeah like in you know I'm talking like stereotypically and and it's also interesting because I often have this conversation with my husband and like you know all of our different friends and they're all great men and I'm not meaning to to call anyone out because there's also choice like I love being like the maternal mom like I love being like when my husband's like oh should I put the kids up to I'm like no I want to yeah I fight for it a bit but I also think it's it's interesting for like any mentor to remember that in workplaces like gender equality well in my experience anyway and I know we're lucky at Destian but like it's it's pretty much gone I think in a lot of modern companies like we've done so much progress and like so I talked to my husband and obviously like all these peer group of men and I truly like they don't see any difference between females and males on hiring which is incredible yeah I know from speaking to my friends like you know most of my friends are still carrying the majority of the mental load and kind of that responsibility women and then again it's interesting because I'm like gosh like these same husbands who are in the workplace who i know are such advocates for like gender equality need to remember at home that actually like if you're promoting there then you also have to be aware of like this mental workload and actually how much maybe is still falling on on the women again gender equality in the home yeah because i think people think about it just in the workplace around like you know they interview the hire but you also need to make sure at home like it's equal if again if you choose that because i think if you're both working yeah because i also think you know people can like look no one should look down on anyone like I also think someone who's like I'm just going to be a stay-at-home mom I'm like kudos to your stay-at-home dad like it's such a short period like if you can afford it like wow go you if you want to work go you just like it's all about making the choice for you and again like we're very lucky and I like I was saying like we have the greatest support network and you know we so I'm from Sheffield went to university in Nottingham met my husband there and like some people are like oh gosh like you know you live in nottingham as in there's obviously so many like incredible places in the world and from a work perspective we definitely both work more out of nottingham but i'm like the village we have there we actually live in a village which i love but it takes a village right to raise kids my husband's parents like my mom like their cousins just like everyone around this has been so brilliant becklett thank you so much i've really enjoyed talking to you you know one of the weirdest most inspiring things that you've just said to me yeah that it's not about being a grade a student or being perfect or being amazing it's about who you are what you learn and the other thing I love that you said was about being kind yeah we we I've I've almost begun to hate that phrase be kind because people have started using it like an abusive term a bullying yeah do you know what I mean yeah but actually just being courteous to each other yeah and looking out for each other look how brilliantly you've made that work in your life yeah but I think kind is like it you know it's not about being a pushover like I will stand my ground till at the end of time but I'll always do it with respect and and I think it it's just that balance of like for me the most important thing in being a human it's just like who you are like your values like your inner good yes and and actually like if you're a good person and like you know that you and I think that's one thing in life now I feel like I get coached every single day because you open tiktok and like it's like a therapist you and you get so much advice but like you know I always just think about that thing around like in a hundred years from now no one will remember you like everything will be gone so actually all that matters when you're like in your last days it's like you've been a good person like who's around your bed like do you have love in your life like do you attract those things and and sorry I say that but then I also believe in like freedom comes from decisions you make in life and again it's not to say like everyone needs to be an entrepreneur because in many ways entrepreneurship doesn't give you freedom because you never switch off like you're constantly thinking but it's just deciding what freedom means to you and just get going like like I have some friends who is like always they have ideas and it never becomes one yeah just like you have nothing to lose in this in this world just try like just get out there and do it I've stopped hugging Nicola Kilner now I literally couldn't stop hugging her because she was so inspiring there were so many things that she's been been through that I thought, God, that actually would just finish someone off.

1:38:45But she's learned from all her life experiences and carried them through and gone on to just be more and more and more successful because of it. I think the thing that I loved about her the most, the message that really surprised me, I think, is how kind she is and how she likes to foster a loving environment in the office. And that doesn't mean at the expense of being a tough businesswoman. That means at the expense of people. She believes in looking after her employees, but also her business colleagues. Doing business with someone should be a pleasure, not a punishment. God, and there were so many takeaways from this interview.

1:39:34I hope you enjoyed it. If you like, I'd love you to comment and let me know what you liked about it and I'll try and bring you more content like that.