Davina McCall: The Brain Surgery Experience That Changed My Life. | With Steven Bartlett.

35:23And I'm ready. I've got you. At what point did you and Michael talk about death?

35:35quite quite quickly really weirdly i mean i said look i've got to plan for if it doesn't go according to plan when i'd spoken to the doctors um they talked about things like stroke epilepsy these all being risks nicking an artery or a blood vessel in the brain and having a bleed

36:09so there were a lot of things that could be a risk and obviously because of my age you know I'm 57 that was another thing that mattered to me I was thinking you know would you rather have brain surgery now or if it grew in eight years time would you want to have it in your mid to late 60s would that not would it not be better to get it done now while you're you are fit and healthy in every other way um so yes we had that talk quite soon and I did go and you know address my will and make sure that was airtight I talked to Michael about my wishes I wrote letters of wishes to all the children put those in my will.

37:06Your letters to them. Yeah. Personal letters to them. Yeah.

37:16And I made sure that when I went to sleep before the operation, I could trust in Kevin and let go of the outcome. And I really got there, Stephen. Like I really, really went to sleep and thought everything will be okay, whatever happens. And it felt like I'd climbed a mountain, but it was a good mountain to climb, you know. Like I really meant it. You were at peace? Mm. the other quite funny thing my daughter my eldest daughter holly she's always she's quite perceptive and um because i'd been around her a bit and we'd had the summer together and um i was saying i love you quite a lot and i was also saying i've had an amazing life i mean i was saying that all the time to all of the kids.

38:27I just want you to know I've had an amazing life. And it was because I wanted them to know that if anything bad ever happened to me, because, look, we could all get run over by a bus tomorrow, don't feel sad. I have had an amazing life, like a life that you would want somebody you love to have. I have had that life. It's had ups and downs. I mean, you know about my life, right? It's been carnage, it's been amazing, but it's been mega. Like the carnage meant the amazing felt even better. I felt all the feels, I felt real love, I felt real despair. Like it's been mega. how does your relationship with i guess i guess let's start with motherhood and your children start to change how does your thinking change when you you consider the possibility that you might not be there to watch them grow up yes because of all the conversations you've had i think the ones that sound like they were the most tricky would have been those with your kids funnily enough i remember my mom i just just remembered this second my mom calling me when i was 10 and telling me she had a cyst in her breast and i remember the just total devastation as a 10 year old yeah like the total i was i just didn't understand i thought i had lost my mom yeah and at that age it's just i mean it's like your world has ended what was what's that moment like with the children with the kids emotionally are you trying to set them up prepare them in any way are you telling them the truth a version of the truth were you physically with your mom when she told you i found that on the phone i know i know who were you with i remember i certainly remember exactly where i stood i picked up the phone and my mom had said she wanted to speak to me and she said that she had a they're discovered a benign tumour in her breast and that um and she spoke to me about it down the phone and then then she hung up the phone and i remember i probably with my siblings at home yeah um god that's quite intense isn't it it is intense the fact that i remember exactly what i asked almost what i was wearing in that moment at 10 years old 20 years ago um but your children yes they It sounds like they processed it quite pragmatically.

41:02They did. Okay. They did. And I think it was funny with Chester because he's the youngest. He's 18. 18. And he was, it was only when I came home, he was like, I didn't realise how serious it was. I said, well, I'm pleased, you know, because look, here I am. And it all went well and it was fine. But in a way there was part of me that was thinking if it hadn't been fine, he would have struggled the most. And in a way, that's what I wanted to do, was to try and find a way that they would all find a way through it if I didn't make it. I mean, obviously, your mum... You know, I mean, the thing you really want to do is have your mum around when you have babies.

41:56Yeah. Get married. Yeah. Your babies take their first steps. You know, Christmases with grandchildren. I mean, I can't wait for grandkids. Those are the kinds of things that I would feel sad about. But what I was trying to not do is think about things that I would miss if I didn't make it. I was trying to think about how would they cope if I didn't make it? Who would they have around them? who would support them, where would they live I was trying really not to kind of think too much about what I would miss because it just made me feel too sad Were you worried about them?

42:44Weirdly, I'd thought about it so much that actually my final thought about it was that they're surrounded by love and family and Michael but also they're really great kids. Like I just thought, you guys, it will be devastating but you will all be okay. And I just had that feeling. They're good kids, they're smart. That was such a nice feeling. I don't mean smart as in clever. I mean in life. Robust. Yes, like they make me very proud. And, you know, it's interesting because I always wanted my mum to say that. Do you remember? That's why I became famous. Like that was the whole reason. But it's so nice to be able to say that about my kids and to tell them all the time.

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45:04Did you think about your mother through this process? I know she's passed away now, but... Yeah, it was interesting. I didn't massively. I... To be honest, I think if this had happened when she was alive, it would have been I would have gone to her for a reaction and I wouldn't have got the reaction that I was hoping for I mean the person who I've had an amazing kind of connection with during this time has been my step-mom Gabby so my dad's wife Gabby yeah and um when I was growing up I went to go and live with Gabby and my father when I was about 13 I left my I lived with my grandmother then I moved in with daddy and Gabby when I was 13 in Shepherd's Bush West London girl and um I I moved in and then Gabby got pregnant and weirdly how I read that was I felt a bit guilty to be invading in their new family it was such a I don't know why but I thought oh I've come up because they haven't been able to get pregnant.

46:15And then I've come up, she's got pregnant. And I'm... Anyway, she has this baby, Millie, my sister. I was 13 and it was like hard work for them as a couple. And I was beginning to go off the rails. I was smoking a bit of weed. At 14, I started taking Coke. 15, speed. 16, heroin. you know like I was careering off the rails obviously a bit of a nightmare for them going out a lot um so I was really difficult she was amazing with me Gabby she was my step-mom from when I was six years old she was always great she used to take me shopping at Topshop she used to when I was a little girl, and she was solid, dependable, reliable, kind, pragmatic.

47:13You know, my mum was like a fiery, whirring dervish of sexual energy, and there was Gabby, who was everything I wanted my mum to be. but there was something about her that I either felt that I was always doing something wrong staying in the house she never made me feel like that it was me I was like oh I'm I'm a wild child and they've got this lovely baby and I shouldn't really be here and it was a very interesting thing And in the last two years, I have, with Michael, talked a lot about Gabby, and he's always said what an amazing woman she is and how brilliant. For a 75-year-old, she kind of went off to learn Spanish on her own in Valencia with a bunch of post-uni students.

48:05She lived in a flat with a bunch of post-uni students for a week, and then she went to go and see Coldplay in Dublin. I mean, she's like knockout. and I have had these real massive revelations around Gabby and I've just thought I've wanted a mother I've wanted my mum to be a mum I've been asking somebody really to be something that they're not all her life I was sort of going I wanted my mum to turn into you know somebody that was dependable, pragmatic take care of you, cook food for you you know take you to top shop my mum would never have done any of that to give people context on your mother for people that don't know can you fill in that picture of the the behavior the yeah neglect the betrayal yeah so so you know it's really interesting because you say neglect and betrayal and immediately i'm like well it wasn't that bad because when it's your mother and she's your flesh and blood i weirdly always want to defend her but but but she she took me to So basically, my birth mother was French.

49:14And she was given a lot of money when she was young. And she never really worked for it. She was given it by her dad. He made lots of money. And he gave her a massive lump sum of money when she was 18. And she spunked it all on Yves Saint Laurent clothes and sports cars. And met my dad at 22. She'd already had a baby at 15. She was forced to marry the dad at 16. She had you at 15? No, my sister. And then at 21 or 20, she met my dad and had me at 21.

49:52And she was just wild. She was immensely sexual. I remember being quite young and they'd got divorced, I think. But I remember going to someone's house and watching her snog someone's husband. by her car. I remember, you know, she just had no boundaries. And my mum's, like, line when somebody would say to her, but you slept with him, she'd go, it's only bodies. Like, she was just sort of... And there was part of me that kind of always was like, well, at least you're honest. There was something so... Yeah. She was... People were like... She was magnetic. well men would just flock to her but really what i wanted was angela lansbury do you know what i mean like i just wanted cardi wearing sensible shoes do you know you know what i mean but actually what i had was somebody that was doing citizen's arrests on people at 8 30 a.m in the bar around the corner you know it was too much but But I loved her with all of my heart.

51:10And half of me, half of me, all my naughty bits, probably... Well, Michael's already told me this, because once he said, I've already met your mum. And I said, what do you mean? And he put his hand on my chest and he said, she's in here. And I was like... And he went, all my favourite bits about you. are your mum. You know, all my naughty bits, all the bits where I'll wear are like a short skirt or I want to go out clubbing or all of those things. That's her. I've had to thank for that. But all my good bits and my pragmatic bits and my sensible bits and my bits of being a good mother. I learnt from my grandmother and I learnt from my stepmother and I never gave her credit for that.

52:01And Michael's also, I mean, Michael's like sounds like my guru right now but I'm slightly full of it because we've been through something massive together but Michael um helped me like put new pair of glasses on and look at Gabby my step-mom in a different way and I've literally fallen in love with her for the like in such a major way for the first time so she said to me this is a good example right she said to me what kind of pajamas are you taking to a hospital and I was like what kind of pajamas do you think and she went, oh my God, are they really sexy? And I would have read that five years ago as an insult.

52:44Oh, you think I'm too sexy? Like, you think, oh, no, it's stupid, I shouldn't be doing that. Now, I was like, yes. And we laughed and we laughed about it. What were the glasses you took off? I took off. you wish I'd never come to live with you. I had you. And I put on, I think you always wanted me to live with you. It's amazing. They're much nicer glasses. Have you told her this? Oh, my God, we've talked about it non-stop. It's unbelievable. It's so good. She looked after me for two weeks. We walked arm in arm. I've never walked arm in arm with my mum. ever my step-mom I mean like I've never we walk arm in arm we talk we laugh we've been so honest to each other but you know my mum and I have gone deep we have had the since this operation I have had the most amazing time with her ever was she aware that you had this perspective aware that we were slightly like two cogs that was slightly out of kilter yeah and we just when we were turning we We were just getting stuck sometimes.

54:00An unresolved misunderstanding. Yes, yes. And we just went, bleh. And I'd noticed she was reaching out to me a bit. Before this? Yes, because I think she's 75. And a bit like me now, she's looked death in the face and she's like, I want to heal everything. Like, I don't want there to be any weird vibes or any bad feelings or anything. And she said to me, I'm sorry, I, you know, I asked you to kind of move out when you were 19. And it was so funny. She said that to me. And I said, why? I said, it was the single greatest thing you've ever done for me. I left home and I worked hard. You taught me everything.

54:48It was such a gift. I've only ever spoken about that. But she carried that as a bad thing that she'd done. and I was like whenever I talk to anybody about it it is the greatest gift because they were they'd lost my dad lost his job in the 80s and um they had to move into a um uh a flat instead of a house so they they moved from a house to a flat but in order to make money they were getting in a lodger who was at business school and then she would do bed and breakfast for them and that would bring in a bit of money while my dad was trying to find work and she was like there's no room and I was like it's I'm 19 I'm not even like I I should go and find myself somewhere to live so once we talked about that and I was like no it it's the greatest gift you've ever given me she was like oh I'm so pleased so have you been carrying that and she went yes I was like right let's let's do this let's get it all out on the table and we just vomited everything.

55:57There's a lot of lost time here. Oh, I mean, I'm 57. I am so annoyed about this. If anybody's watching, or if you've got anybody in your family that you... Please talk to them now. Do not waste any time, because doing other people's thinking is none of your business. Like, it is the worst thing you can do. Why don't we, Davina? Why didn't you? Why didn't I talk to Gabby? Why didn't Gabby call sooner or... Like, I think that we both felt that our feelings about how the other person was feeling were correct. And both of our feelings about each other were making it feel like it was correct. Well, it was correct.

56:48Like, she thought that I was feeling funny about her and I was feeling funny about her because I thought she was feeling funny about me but actually we wanted to love each other. And she'd lost her husband, your father. Yes. 2022? Yes. Had that at all, do you think, changed her perspective and sort of realigned her priorities? And you said that she'd looked death in the face herself. I think the one thing I have always had for Gabby is enormous respect. I mean, my dad was a bon vivant. What's a bon vivant? Oh, my God. I'm going to take you to Paris one day, Stephen. Oh, gosh. OK. A bon vivant.

57:31Bon vivant is someone who loves life, a good liver. OK. So my dad was really good fun. Loved going out, socialising, everything. My mum was what I would call a mid-light, you know, mid... Not an extrovert, not an introvert. she was ambivert and that yeah ambivert is there such a thing yeah is there yeah there is yeah someone said on my podcast i was like okay oh my god this is great she was an ambivert that's such a good so she was the perfect kind of in between but that was a lot you know i do a i do a ladies lunch for a charity that i've been working for since i was nine years old i've been raising money for this charity since i was nine years old and every year do i do a ladies lunch i've been doing this ladies lunch for this charity for 16 years and it is raucous ladies lunch everybody gets absolutely mullered really good fun and the only men who have been to the ladies lunch are there's an auctioneer who goes um he's never safe either we've got there's a radio dj who sponsored the event my dad went until he became ill until he got alzheimer's and then he and then he didn't didn't go anymore.

58:50But every time my dad went to this event, he'd get absolutely trollied. And then all the women would take him to, I think it's called Tiger Tiger in Portsmouth. And they would all go out all night. Portsmouth's massive. And then my mum would go home and wait for dad to come home. But like every year I'd go back to the event and they'd go, went out with your dad. last year. God, it was amazing. It makes me think that you had the mother you always wanted there the whole time. She was there all the time, Stephen.

59:30I think about so many relationships of mine that probably are trapped on the other side of some trivial misunderstanding. I know I think a lot of us have that and I I've even I've even a few years ago I I've thought about doing a tv program where I help people the last time you said this on a podcast with me it happened yeah so sorry what about doing a tv program to help people get past a family block because they are so sad. And I think on our deathbeds, you know, those nurses. For anywhere. Who are palliative nurses. And they see people on their deathbeds all the time. I wish I'd made up with.

1:00:21I wish I'd spoken to. I want to forgive. I want to say sorry. These are the things that on our deathbeds, I don't want to be that person. one of the things that i learned through watching the process you went through but also being experiencing it as a friend in the whatsapp group where you had some of your friends in there was how to show up as a man i'm talking about michael here when someone you love is going through something like that like i actually said this to michael i said thank you actually for modeling that for me because I'm I guess fortunate enough to not have been through that before but the way you've shown up for Davina this like really unconditional managing all of us as friends in a network the support the doing everything you know all the some of the not so you know some of the stuff that most of us would never think they'd have to do for somebody um and just the how solid he was as a man you know I thanked him for that I remember sending sent him a message just to say thank you for that because it was really remarkable to see the like strength and a per like what I've described as this perfect model of love and it's hard you don't always get to see love and in its essence until something tests it and that was a really testing moment and he just really really inspired me I was wondering how your relationship with him is different now on the other side.

1:01:50I tell you, what's been interesting is that I think it has been the most testing time for him ever to see me, who is normally Mrs. In Control of Everything. I mean, beforehand, with the fear and everything, it actually brought us really, really, really close together. but I think the first month for him in hospital was so painful and difficult and hard and that that WhatsApp group was his therapy, his saving grace. Like I don't know what he would have done without it. But this is the amazing thing about him as a man. He is everything. He is strong. He's soft. He's funny. He's serious. He's really smart and super silly.

1:03:00He cares about you a lot. Yeah. Oh, my God. And I feel it every day. Because when you came out of the operation, there was a few days where... It's really hard. Yeah. Yeah. And that's when I could see in the videos, I think doubts in his mind as to whether he kind of lost you. Can you explain that to me? Yeah. What happens? You wake up post-op. What happens there? So I think, I mean, I don't really remember where I was, but I think I was in intensive care for two or three days in the end. because my short-term memories. So what had happened was the scar goes from here to here. You can kind of see it a bit.

1:03:45It's growing back. Ah, yes. That goes from here across here to here. So is that about 12 inches? Yeah. For anyone that can't see. They peel it forward. So they peel your head forward. My skin to here. Yeah. And then take a bit out here and go in through the two halves of your brain. and it's guided by like a GPS. Did you see the picture of me with stickers on my head? Those send signals to the camera taking Kevin down to where the cyst is and it guides him to the cyst. And the cyst was sitting, this blew my mind, the cyst was sitting on a passage that short-term memories pass through.

1:04:37yeah so when he said kevin said he got down there and it was waving at him it was clear as day like his worry was is it going to be hard to find but actually he said i could see it so clearly and he said the other worry was what's it going to be full of because they have to pop the cyst empty it and then pull out the empty cyst because it's easier to get through if it was full of hard stuff because sometimes it can calcify that would have been a lot harder but he popped it and it was full of it wasn't very runny but it was gloopy and it they were able to get it all out so that was the second thing that i had that i was lucky with and then the third when he pulled it out it came out relatively easily but it was attached to this passage for short-term memories and that got pulled up with the cyst until the cyst became detached and then it went down but it was misfigured okay the short-term memory passage was misfigured and the memories couldn't just go straight through they were getting a lost and so when I woke up I went I cried a lot I saw him I was crying a lot and I and I remember telling him that when I went to sleep with the anaesthetist I went to sleep saying my intention that I set was love love love all the way and he's got a video of me with the bandage on crying just going and I was saying love love love all the way and I could remember that but then I went we've just got to get back from America because I need to have an operation and he was like what has happened here and I'm not sure he fully understood at the beginning that that was the short-term memory he thought she's gone you know she's gone mad and then eventually he did kind of manage to talk to somebody who said oh no it was attached to this passage blah blah blah but you don't understand how important your short-term memory is for everything I mean you had a father that had dementia right did you have to confront that interesting not then because i didn't even know what i mean i didn't know who i was where i was what was happening michael would leave the room i didn't think he'd been there i mean it was mad i mean that would be latest stages i guess in that moment about timers you've i actually felt this vicariously by watching michael describing on video to me what he was going through it became really clear to me that actually we have a relationship with each other's memories yes do you know what I mean it's just like my memories are attached to your memories that's exactly it and the minute one person in that relationship loses the memory the relationship ends basically well the relationship is you knew it there's almost a bit of grief that I mean I think that's what he was going through I didn't I didn't I couldn't see it or feel it but I think for him I think for I think for Michael that that moment those few days at the beginning and even I mean I think after three or four days was it three or four days he's put out a message and he went we've had a breakthrough yeah it was kind of coming and going because there was moments where he was like I think it's okay and then he'd come back to the camera and it'd be oh I'm not sure you know so what happened was I think the surgeon started using the word should oh okay and it should be back in a few days but he got really nervous about this should because what what if it never comes back but actually when kevin talked to me he was like um it's definitely all coming back it's just gotta it's just gotta shrink back down but it's it's not gone but i i'm not sure anybody had relayed that to michael at that point and he was like is this it are you ever going to get better and you know now we know um that each week it got better and better and better but at the time first week it was really really hard not for me but for michael and a very lonely because no one can really explain i mean it's so interesting that you realize that your personality is your short-term memory it's like being with somebody completely different and even I went home after I think it was probably about eight days after the operation I stayed in for one extra night just to feel a bit safer because I was still doolally

1:09:19and so forgetful and I I went home eventually and I was with Gabby and Michael I think had to go out or go somewhere.

1:09:35And in the morning, Gabby came in and she said, do you want a cup of tea? And I said, no, I'm fine, thanks. I'm just going to sort of keep resting for a bit. I was so tired. You have brain surgery. God, it's exhausting. And she said, I'm going to go and have a shower. I'll come back down after the shower. We can have a chat, start the day. I was like, great. and I've got this lovely, lovely cleaning lady called Fran who came round, and she knocked on the door, and she was like, Morning. Do you fancy a cup of tea? And I was like, Oh, no, I'm all right. I'm just going to try and sleep for a bit.

1:10:14She said, Is your mum here? And I went, No. And literally mum had left two minutes before and gone upstairs, and she went, Oh, that's weird, because her car's outside. and I went oh

1:10:32is she like that's how that's how crazy it is that you can't it's like a second it's terrifying but then the next week we were really laughing about that because I would have remembered that a week later but I couldn't remember if I'd had breakfast so at 10 o 'clock I think or 11 o 'clock I think I'm quite hungry did I have breakfast? You can't remember things like that. Basic care things. I had to get really good at putting post-its, brush your teeth, you know, do this. I had to have order. I was actually quite good at it. I became quite methodical about when to take what, had this next to my bed.

1:11:17So every morning I would do that. Then, you know, and then what was amazing, and I did think a lot about people with Alzheimer's is that I was going the opposite direction. I'd experienced what it's like to feel completely lost and totally different and frightened and paranoid. It makes you paranoid. The other thing is that when you have no short-term memory, your perception of reading people's faces becomes so acute. So if you'd have walked into a room and started talking to me, I'd be looking at your eyebrows. I'd be looking, what are you trying to teach me or tell me? Are you happy? Are you angry?

1:12:01How do you feel? Like, I'm trying to pick up that rather than remember what you're saying. Why? I don't know why, but it was telling me, oh, they're a bit upset, or am I annoying you? Have I been annoying? Because I can't remember what I've done. I'm trying to read how you feel about me from your face and your actions. is it exhausting oh my god I'm so sorry like but with every single week it's got a little bit better and a little bit better and I am so unbelievably grateful for that were you aware of the public noise were you aware not at all really and I mean still not really now um what was weird because you kept it private pretty much up until the point when you had the operation yeah and that was intentional well the i think maybe even the morning of the operation i put it out as i was about to walk down the corridor to go to get anesthetized because i thought i don't want the drama um but i haven't obviously i missed all the i missed television or I missed I didn't look at TV anything for a month I don't even I didn't read any of the WhatsApp groups yeah yeah you can't you can't remember anything I mean I could have I may have watched on television but I couldn't remember anything you could I mean you could have told me I'd seen myself I wouldn't know it it's so interesting in those moments because when that story breaks and it broke nationally in a massive way you kind of get to see what you mean to people and the the overwhelming sentiment from every corner of the internet and world was just people really like reminiscent on how much you've meant to them and the impact you've had on their lives and saying wonderfully beautiful things it's a it's a weird situation when the public is confronted with the idea of losing someone who's like a national treasure like yourself and they go into this sort of reminiscent cycle of you know when you first impacted their life whether it was through you work now for menopause advocacy or a tv show or a piece of other piece of media that you've created and i wondered if you had seen it no i think you probably should because it's honestly it's so i always get goosebumps thinking about it it's it's just a credit to the way that you've lived your life it really is a credit you know yeah i mean i've always said to myself don't read the good don't read the bad so i've always thought either the good might make you feel too comfortable or safe and the bad might affect your performance later on so just don't read anything about yourself so i've just ignored it i tell you what i have enjoyed is walking down the street well i sat i took the train today i took the tube that was quite mega it's just like loads of people just going yeah okay and i was like um it's just funny it's beautiful it is nice and you must have also seen even closer to home how much you mean to so many people to so many people it's funny because i was put in a whatsapp group with your um your friends and family etc um and my first observation was how big that whatsapp group is i was like jesus christ she's got some friends like but i thought this is a measure of a good life and whether you've like treated people well and lived right is in a moment like that how many people deeply are invested in your well-being and you coming out on the other side of this well like people were every single day sending many many messages to check in desperate to get an update do you know what i was thinking um when I made the whatsapp group is who do I

1:16:06if if something bad happened who do I not want to hear it from a paper so I was kind of thinking in a way like I want them to hear good things who who do I want to hear the news first before anybody else gets it and that was my list of people and it was you know people like you who I work with who I really care about and then there were obviously my family members um and then it was quite nice putting that list together of people because I thought I have so many people I really care about in my life you know I mean this is kind of my next question which is about how this process has kind of crystallized what and who matters because sometimes we need to be confronted with unfortunately bad news to really understand what our true priorities were the whole time and for someone like me who you know I'm 30 odd years old now and fortunately I haven't been through any major health scares but I'm hoping that a health scare doesn't need to teach me something important about life.

1:17:26Stephen, you're a grateful person though, right? Your upbringing's made you a grateful person. Would you say you're full of gratitude? Yes. And why? Do you know what that has come from? uh a feeling that i am living life to the fullest in actually exceeded like what i ever thought my life might look like and um probably an underlying low level of imposter syndrome as to why I have been able to do this like how come yeah how come like versus someone else and just like this overarching sense of just constant privilege like so that's a grateful where my gratitude comes from just feel very very deeply like fortunate people I wonder I'm always interested in the fortunate thing because I always do believe that like we are responsible for our lives like Like it's, you make it, but how do we, why, why are you the person that can, that can make it?

1:18:36I'm always, it's like the beginning of the universe. I always think gratitude is so, also not being a victim. So awful things can happen to you. You've had a tough life. We know lots of people that have had tough lives, but they've used that, turned it around and become enormously. good people or successful people and how how do you not become a victim because in in um in aa they say poor me poor me like oh poor me and then they say pour me a drink like victimhood is like the worst place to be for say an alcoholic or an addict because it'll just take you straight back to using and drinking. And it's actually inertia.

1:19:32If you're a victim, because you are at the beck and call of life, life is the thing that is affecting your chances of success, love, you know, enjoyment. All of those external things are the things that are stopping you from being able to be happy. When in fact, you have the power to have all of those things and all it is is putting on a new pair of glasses there's victimhood and being a victim is clearly playing a role though i've been thinking i was thinking about this a lot over christmas and new years i read a book called the courage to be disliked i think the first section of the book is five sections and it's basically a young man asking a philosopher some of these questions about life and the young man is a victim and the philosopher ends up telling him that what happened to us doesn't define us what we're actually doing and this is there's like the Freudian psychology which is determinism where this happened to you so you became this the other school of um psychology by this guy called Alder um says that you use what happened to you to serve a goal you have today and it's a it's a reframing because this explains how two people can go through the exact same thing and one of them can become productive and successful and someone else may never leave their bedroom yeah and he explains these scenarios where we've used what's happened to us to serve a goal today so I was reflecting on myself and some things I tell myself and this sort of hero's journey that I say on podcasts if I was in this home and it was dilapidated and we were black and and that like for example I say I'm unorganized today and then when I trace it back I tell the story of my mother like being basically a hoarder but what I actually think I'm doing is I'm actually not a disorganized person.

1:21:17I'm using that as a way to serve the goal of communicating my origin story. Oh, wow. And I just think, I think a lot about how... That's reframing, right? Yeah. I love that. I mean, when I talk about glasses, I'm talking about reframing. How is it serving you being a victim? That's what I'm getting at. Like, it's got to be, it's serving you in some level. And that's, I think, a conversation which makes people feel very uncomfortable. Your victimhood, the choice you're making. I think often victimhood means that people will feel sorry for you because you're stuck somewhere you'll never get out of.

1:21:56So people go, oh, I'm so sorry about that. But when you're not a victim, you think, I could do something about this, something. I could at least perceive it differently. Then you're not a victim anymore. Then you don't get the sympathy. and for some people sympathy is some kind of attention or love or it's something isn't it yeah so I think it's a very negative I I would like to quickly you talked about not wanting to leave your room just then and there is something I want to say about um I'd been at home um I was still trying to get over my short-term memory loss and I had booked in to start work on the 15th of January and I was quite nervous about that and I you know I was getting a lot better as the weeks went by but still I was thinking there is no way I feel ready to go back to work and this was like three weeks before I went back I was thinking oh my god I don't know how I'm gonna do it you know it's kind of like just after Christmas coming up to New Year I was thinking god I don't I don't feel ready at all and I talked to Michael about it and he's always my sounding board I said I don't feel ready to go back at all and I'm spending I'm sleeping in bed still an hour in the morning I wake up and go back to bed for an hour feel re-energized then have to go back to bed for an hour again in the mid-afternoon and then go back to bed again at 10.

1:23:28I mean I was just sleeping so much. So am I going to work needing to do that? How's that going to work? And he said Davina I really feel like the last kind of 10 % is going to come back when you go back to work. You need this and do you know how I felt? I was like that I don't need it I need to stay here I'm not fine I didn't say it out loud because I think my subconscious knew Michael was right but my fear I had become mildly like I had I'd been institutionalised by my home yeah yeah i didn't know how to leave my home anymore i used to go for two walks a day just around the local area and then go back i can't drive for ages so i couldn't couldn't get in a car i couldn't go anywhere the only place i could stay was like at home or near home felt really safe and he would say this and he'd go i think it'll really help you when you go back and i'd go you don't in my head i'm going you don't understand i'm gonna and then like towards the end I was going look could you stop just saying that I know you're trying to get me to go back and I never ever speak like that to Michael ever I thought who am I don't have to go I'm really really sorry I'm really frightened I feel like you don't really understand I'm so scared of going back I went back last week for the first day

1:25:11Sorry. It felt so good to be out. To be out at the house and be like you. See everybody, people that weren't my family or friends, like people that I worked with, they were so happy to see me and I thought I'm not going to be able to remember anything. I was working on Long Lost Family and I had to remember someone's whole life history. And I thought, my God, I can't remember if my mum's here and she's in the shower. How am I going to do this? They got me the script five days early. And I went over it again and again. And I made it long-term memory because I did it every day. And Michael said, you've got this.

1:26:00And still I felt like angry. I think I'm crying. Because I feel so bad. Because he knows me right. And he was... He was... He was so right. Like, I phoned him up from the car. And I do this in the car. And I just... I'm laughing. I'm just like, you were bloody right.

1:26:32And he laughed. and I said I'm sorry you know I've been really fighting against this but you know it's been fear and I had this absolute revelatory realization of what anxiety feels like you know when somebody feels like they're too scared to leave yeah somewhere or they don't like crowded spaces and you've got someone you love, your mum, your sister, your best friend, a counsellor, telling you, go do the thing, look at the thing you're really scared of and go do it. And I've had, like, a small look into what that feels like. Davina, what were you scared of? Failing. Failing? Fear. Being scared.

1:27:25Like, being alone, not having Michael or my mum around or like I had all these safety blankets in place. My home felt so... And my old life just felt so alien. It was like six weeks since I'd done anything hard or difficult or demanding or... And your body's not working physically, your brain is... My body was weirdly good. I could walk, my heart, everything was fine. Oh, I was sleeping, I was tired. Yeah. But my brain was messy. Okay. Messy, messy, messy. But I think it wasn't failing so much. I think it was, I was literally terrified of life outside the comfort of my own home. But the thing, what, if I could speak to a room full of scared people, I would go.

1:28:20I would tell them what it felt like when I got into the car after I'd done this shoot. Sorry. It's okay. I'm not sure if you're crying or really happy. I'm really happy. I'm good. It's that the feeling that I felt when I got in the car was mega. It's like that. Yes, like, I can do this. And if you don't look at the thing that scares you more than anything, And you might not feel like I can do this straight away. But if you never do it, you will never know that feeling. And it was amazing, Steve. And it was like, I was like, I'm still in here. Because I think fear, anxiety, like robs you of yourself in the end.

1:29:19You disappear. Stops you beginning again. Yeah.

1:29:29I began again. You began again? Again. Again. I began again again. Oh my God, I'm like Fred again again. I began again again. That's my DJ name. But that's exactly what a lot of people go through when they consider beginning again, whether it's off the back of a surgery and health school. Or whether it's career change. It could be having a kid and trying to get back into the workforce. It's that, the fear. You know, it's interesting because I've seen people talk about, oh, you know, so many people on these podcasts, they cry and they do all the thing. Crying is so good. Stop vilifying crying. Like, it's really important to get it out.

1:30:08I always feel much better when I let it go. And if you find that embarrassing or difficult, then don't watch podcasts. Like, this is a good thing to do. If people cry, I'm always like, yes. Yeah, it's a symptom of the depth of the conversations, which is yeah Stephen I'd quite like to like one day return the favor you've already returned the favor no I want to I want to interview you like we'll do this one day and I will be able to talk to you because it's really nice actually doing like you talking to somebody about it's been really

1:30:51I wanted to choose who I spoke to about it. Do you know what I mean? I mean, that's the moment. I don't want, I wanted it to be, I wanted to feel safe. And I did. So thank you for that. I've got a few tiny things I wanted to ask you. Yes. There's a few things that I read online that I wanted to ask you about. And this is obviously magazines with their fake sources and all that stuff. But how are you thinking as you look to the future in your work time? Because some of the magazines have said that you've had a bit of an epiphany and you're maybe thinking of slowing down a bit, which I struggle with.

1:31:32I thought fucking slowing down a bit. No.

1:31:37Speeding up. Oh, that was another thing I wanted to tell you. No. That's quite interesting is that I didn't think I was symptomatic. Yeah. I now think I was symptomatic. How? So my short-term, I went and had a three-hour memory test before I went. And obviously, look, I'm menopausal, so my memory's not what it was. But even the woman there was like, OK, your short-term memory is struggling quite a lot. And I thought, well, maybe it's just, I'm just, it's age-related or whatever. but I did well in other areas like in non-verbal racing and stuff I did quite well so I was like oh that's really weird that that is one particular area like around a long remembering a story that someone told me anyway I'm going back to have it retested I'm really looking forward to it because after the operation one of the first things that I remember is waking up and opening my eyes and then thinking, oh, my God, like, stop thinking.

1:32:48I think that I have not been thinking. Twice in the last year, I said to Michael, do you think all the time? And he went, yeah. And I said, I can see you thinking all the time. And then I used to think, I'm sure I used to do that. and now I am back and I'm like well you can see from me talking to you I'm like I'm firing on all cylinders it's absolutely mad so you think that that's just could have impacted your previous short-term memory yes interesting you've got three wonderful kids Holly Tilly and Chester yes you know they're much younger um than both of us um and I was wondering again it's similar to a question I asked earlier on but I really want to get clarity on it because you've been through this journey that I haven't been through, is what matters to Lena in life?

1:33:42What is it that actually matters? You touched on it earlier, actually. And when you said, I am living a full life. Yeah. And I think...

1:33:59There's that saying, a life lived in fear is a life half-lived. and if you don't want to go and do the outrageous thing, I've never wanted to do a bungee jump. I mean, I did end up doing one, but I never wanted to do one. If you don't really want to do something, don't do it. But if there's something that you want to do, do it.

1:34:24And don't, I always think bucket lists, write your bucket list now. when I when I did one with with my sister Caroline we wrote a really sweet lovely bucket list she died before she could do any of it why are we doing bucket lists when we're dying write the bucket list now in your 30s and go what is my bucket list like what do I want to do before I die and let's start doing it now and your bucket people yes yeah and who are your bucket people like who do you want in your life I mean that's another thing I have several times in my life I've thought like okay who am i gonna who am i gonna focus on this year who do who do i who who's really important to me i think that's such a nice idea it's not who do i want to get rid of don't get rid of people like people can stay in your life forever but who's got your full attention this year like who are you gonna invest in and i think that's a nice idea but people connections talking, giving And have your goals changed?

1:35:32Have my goals changed?

1:35:37Yes, I tell you one thing that I have done, realised is that I do need hobbies I need something to love doing I've never had, work was my hobby I love work, I love what I do I literally, I run here You ran here today? No. Oh, figuratively. Figuratively. I run here because I love interviewing people. The people who I interview are so interesting. I love you. I love everybody upstairs. I love this place. Like, I love my job. My job is my hobby. Yeah. I'm so lucky. So people have hobbies when they don't massively love their job, so they can do something that they love outside of work. But I love my work.

1:36:20But I've started singing lessons. interesting oh my god i'm i love it makes me feel euphoric you know what i'm gonna ask what oh no no plan no plans for an album i just do it at home i love it sometimes me and michael sing karaoke to each other why is that important why is that new goal because on to i'm i'm I'm looking for, like, dopamine. And I think music, dancing, connecting with people, love, equal dopamine. Those are my things. Those are my mood-altering drugs. I think I'm going to be a nightmare next year. I've gone very self-reflective. What's Michael going through? I mean, what's funny is me and Michael reflect together.

1:37:23Yeah. and we we've always been like that you know hair stylists and clients it's like you're it's a bit like sitting next to somebody in a car mother child and you're not looking at each other when you're looking at a hairstylist you're looking at them in the mirror it's like one step removed you're not actually looking at their face you're looking in a mirror looking at their face so it's a safe space to talk yeah so we've always been a bit like that but he and i love we don't do medium talk okay so it's deep hand deep deep hand it's great it's it's brilliant it's so nice so i can go i've got i've got something i want to unpick can i talk to you about it he'll be like great we're going in you know and he can do the same to me we will always try and get around something get to the meat of a subject and sometimes he'll talk to me about something and I'll change my mind about something and sometimes I can do that with him and other times we disagree but we disagree really healthily it's like it is brilliant that I love proper meaty conversations.

1:38:39Does he know how much you mean to him and vice versa do you think? He absolutely knows how much he means to me and I know how much I mean to him. I think if I ever was in doubt I think after this experience I felt it. And how are you feeling in your core? Oh my God, grateful. I mean, I feel a bit like...

1:39:14Well, I feel like life's...

1:39:21I feel like life's never going to be the same again, but in rather a good way.

1:39:32can I hug you yeah I'm coming to your seats okay no you've got to know

1:39:42I'm so glad I did this with you um what an honor thank you so much honestly you've given me so so much in so many ways that you'll never really realize but I'm so so grateful and I'm so excited for this this begin again again again again again to change the name i'm glad you feel good it's the most important thing thank you i can tell i can tell it so you just said it you said it's life will never be the same but for the better yeah and i really can i knew that before really if i made it i'd always said to myself if i make it through this um this will be the greatest thing that's ever happened to me.

1:40:26I knew that. It's quite weird that, isn't it? Yeah, but you're both self-reflective, but I also think you're very good at understanding how life's lessons. But I think that's because I was an addict and I think you having your beginnings and the way that your life was at the beginning makes you know that it doesn't always go the way you think it's going to go. And sometimes it's rubbish, but sometimes it's great. like it's yeah and when so and you've been through difficulty you i think is you approach another difficulty even before you've been through it you're able to forecast that there will be a silver lining yes i've been through that a lot where i go this is gonna suck but i know on the other end you know what you know what i call it i read it in a book once and i can't remember what the book was called but it's called a pre-mortem ah pre-mortem okay yeah i love that yeah yeah Forget the post-mortem, figure it all out before it happens.

1:41:20And do the pre-mortem. Thank you so much. It's such an honour that you ask you this question. So thank you. I love you. I love you too. Oh! You're tearing me.

1:41:36Yeah, brace yourself. Exactly. Watch out. It's OK. I can do it. Everybody this year. I can do it. it and i also feel like it's giving me extra extra ammunition in a way for my podcast yeah it's like such a nice empathy is a big part right yeah i and also i think if you're talking to somebody that's been through something if they know you've been through something it's quite a nice yeah exchange then it's like i mean you ask so much better questions if you've if you can understand at least a feeling yeah frame of mind exactly yeah because i think that's much of the the job of like someone in this position is trying to understand like you know the right question to ask in that moment and if you've been there then you do know um it's so fascinating i i don't know i've definitely spent time thinking about that day actually i get quite terrified of the thought that like i might lose this is why i was thinking about michael's position i get terrified that i might lose mel and i like i can't see on the other side of that i honestly can't see on the other side of it like i know people say you know we're just saying a second ago pre-mortem you can like forecast you'll find someone else you you're 30 yeah and i'm 57 i don't think i would have known what to do at 30 but then you call me and Michael and we'll come and help you.

1:43:05Yeah, gosh. You know, that's what it's about, right? You ask your elders to come and help guide you but when you get to being an elder, you have lived an entire life and either you've seen other friends of yours go through something, you've been through something, your parents have been through something and every time you learn from it, there's always got to be that question, what's the learning here? here and if you make the learning then you learn it for the next time and you can pass it on and share it with someone else isn't it something just like vicious and cruel about the nature of life that it's in love that we sign up to pain do you know what i mean like in in all the good that michael gets from loving you he or and vice versa you both sign up to the agreement that someday you're gonna lose each other yes and you both willingly sign that contract i i can't bear the idea of that i'm hoping because i'm older that that i'll go first i'm so hoping that i that i pass before my partner does yeah but then i'm also like horrified by leaving them behind it's like yeah um yeah it's it's difficult it's really difficult but listen thank you i love you thank you oh thank you so much

1:44:19I just want to say thanks very much for watching and if you could just remember to like and subscribe I quickly want to say to any of my viewers that are my age that subscribing doesn't mean it costs you any money or you end up kind of paying for something weekly subscribing just means that you will get notifications or you will know when this podcast is coming out but it really helps us deliver a great podcast to you sending you lots of love thanks for watching

1:45:15Thank you.