Falling In Love: Begin Again Moments

9:48Davina McCall:Do you write Dear Joan? Yeah.

9:50Richard E. Grant:So I write emails to her. I mean, I write in email form, in a diary. But, you know, Dear Joan, and today that this happened, this would really have amused you. I think we should do this. So it's somehow, it makes it feel like that person is still there. It's an ongoing conversation.

10:09Davina McCall:Sorry, I interrupted you. No, don't. Do you not feel that she's still there? No. She's gone?

10:15Richard E. Grant:Yeah. I mean, she's inside me and in my daughter and in the memory of our friends. And I've got photographs of her around the house. but I don't, my father was unequivocal about saying that heaven and hell are human concepts and everything is the here and now. We only have one life, nobody's come back. And I haven't been able to find a better theory than that. With Michael, your partner, that you feel that, or with your late sister, that the voice of that reason or logic is carried in you and helps you make a decision. And because I was with my late wife for 38 years, I know what, you know, if I was describing what you were wearing now and what you were like and how this all went, I very clearly know what her response would be.

11:12Richard E. Grant:And of course she'd say, well, out of 10, how much do you fancy Davina McCall? You know, because I know immediately there's a lioness in her would be going like, you know, am I being challenged here by a beautiful young woman? You know, and that delights me because it's, so that sort of is ongoing in my head.

11:35Davina McCall:I love the sound of Joan. She really sounds like my kind of woman.

11:39Richard E. Grant:She was very feisty and very small, five foot four, but you know, Celtic blood. So I think that, you know, like your French blood, it's a different heat from... Anglo-Saxon.

11:53Davina McCall:So you two met, what was it, 84?

11:59Richard E. Grant:End of 82.

12:00Davina McCall:82, so a year after your dad died, you went down to London.

12:04Richard E. Grant:Yeah. And then met her and...

12:08Davina McCall:How did you meet?

12:08Richard E. Grant:I met her at the I went to she was coaching Series of regional accents at the actor center. So all the notes have gone.

12:19Davina McCall:Yeah, I mean I don't need it and

12:22Richard E. Grant:so I met her there and I said I'd gone to learn a Northern Irish thing because there was so many dramas being made about the troubles And this agent that I had said, you know, you're a six foot you have dark hair and blue eyes You could go up for Northern Irish parts. And he said, what's your Belfast accent like? And I said, debatable. And so I went and had these, did these sessions. And then I asked Joan Washington, who was coaching, if she could teach me privately to sort out my colonial sound. And she said, well, I don't know what you're talking about. And I said, yeah, but I, a director had said to me that I spoke like somebody from the 1950s.

13:02Richard E. Grant:And I suppose Swaziland was in a kind of time war of that expat society. So I said, how long is it going to take? And she gave me a couple of lessons. And I said, how much is it going to cost? She's 20 pounds an hour. And I said, I can't afford that because I'm working as a waiter in Covent Garden. And my bedsit in Notting Hill costs 30 pounds a week. So 20 pounds for an hour is a huge amount of money. She said, well, what can you afford? And I said, 12 pounds. She said, all right, okay, come for 12 pounds, on condition that if you ever make it as an actor, you have to repay me. So on our first wedding anniversary in 1987, I read that paper is the gift that you're supposed to give.

13:46Richard E. Grant:So I gave her 1 ,000 pounds in 50-pound pink notes, and I said, I hope that I've repaid my debt. She said, yes, I think that'll do.

13:57Davina McCall:My God, how great.

13:59Mel Schilling:Yeah. I was pregnant. I had like a morning sickness kind of experience. It was like being pregnant and then it's gone.

14:10Davina McCall:And you'd already been through that with the miscarriage. Yeah. I think that's one of the hardest things with a miscarriage.

14:16Mel Schilling:That's right.

14:17Davina McCall:You're still left with the feelings of being a mother for ages afterwards.

14:21Mel Schilling:That's right. That's right. And you you have the physicality as well. And then, you know, we did the first round of IVF. They put two eggs in because I was older. They said, we really need to make the most of this. There were two that were ready to go and they both just fell away. Nothing, nothing happened at all. But then my doctor called me the next day and she said, we've got this little Aussie battler, this little egg that wasn't developed in time, but it is now. Would you like to put it on ice? I said, yeah, okay, let's just put it on ice. We're not ready to do it again yet. I've got to recover.

15:00Mel Schilling:I need time to heal. Put it on ice. And we waited until my next natural cycle. And they said, would you like to pop that little frozen thing inside you? I said, yeah, why not? nothing to lose. I didn't have to go through the hormones again. I just went with natural

15:18Davina McCall:cycle, popped her in.

15:20Mel Schilling:And that's Maddie. So she was frozen for the first six weeks of her life. Wow. You know, we've actually only just told her that story last week. Oh, really? Yeah, she's 10. And? Oh, she was fascinated. Because she loves science. So she was really carefully listening because she's about to learn all the sex education at school next term and I thought, well, I want her to know that her story is different from maybe some other kids because they're going to talk about IVF. And I said to her, you know, you're going to be having this conversation. What do you know about it? She said, well, I know that you have to have sex to have a baby.

15:57Mel Schilling:And I said, well, our story was actually a bit different and told her. She was fascinated. Wow. Yeah.

16:06Davina McCall:I think it's so good to be able to have that conversation with kids. It's been interesting. I've found it so easy to talk to my girls, but I've kind of left it to my girls to talk to my son.

16:21Mel Schilling:It's quite difficult.

16:24Davina McCall:It's been a really interesting journey. I mean, he's brilliant and he knows what he needs to know, but it's been a fascinating... Yeah, it's been quite a journey, that. And so she found that out last week. Yes. And has she had the lesson yet?

16:44Mel Schilling:No, it'll be when she goes back to school. How? Because I want her to be able to say, that's me. I'm an IVF favourite. Mega. I'm special.

16:51Davina McCall:And really interesting for the class. Yeah. That she'll know and be able to explain her story. Yeah. There was actually a test tube. It was in a lab. Wow.

17:01Mel Schilling:Yeah. So what was it like actually, you know,

17:08Davina McCall:going through a whole pregnancy with Gareth and you know we're talking values and I think sometimes you can be with somebody say you want to have kids go through everything and then values are completely different when you've had a kid suddenly it's like oh my god all of the things around being a parent there are so many values that are tied up in being a parent how was that that's a really good question because it's interesting because Gareth was a parent already so we have I have a stepdaughter she's 30

17:41Mel Schilling:married.

17:42Davina McCall:She's a big girl. Amazing.

17:43Mel Schilling:Which is amazing. She lives in Canada. So Gareth was in her life for the first sort of 10 years and they were, you know, not in touch for a little while. And then now they're back together again, which is beautiful. And they've both got matching tattoos of Northern Ireland on their back. The beautiful map of the country. I love that.

18:00Davina McCall:Very special connection.

18:01Mel Schilling:So I knew that he had some parenting experience, but also it was a difficult situation. He wasn't with the mother and, you know, it was a different situation to ours. So I was very interested to see how that was going to play out. And it's essentially a new beginning for him.

18:19Davina McCall:Yeah.

18:19Mel Schilling:You know, and he felt maybe he made some mistakes first time around and he got to redo those. God, what a great opportunity. So, so powerful for him. And I see him living it every day. How lovely. Yeah, it's really beautiful because our family, we're sort of built in a way that I'm the primary breadwinner and he's the primary parent in many ways with the way our careers are structured. So he, you know, takes Maddie to school on his e-bike every day, there and back, takes her to Taekwondo, you know. Their bond is just so beautiful and I can see that as one of his values coming to absolute the fore for him is his role as parent and guide and support for her.

19:03Mel Schilling:So beautiful to watch.

19:04Davina McCall:What I love about what you're saying is that it doesn't matter if you've made a series of mistakes through your life and relationships. Every relationship is an opportunity to correct those mistakes of the past. You can begin again to stop that happening again with someone else. either through a tweak to you. Well, you can only ever tweak yourself, right? Yeah. You can't tweak other people. No. Yeah.

19:43Mel Schilling:You can try. And it might work temporarily.

19:50Mel Schilling:What is that? Who are you?

19:54Davina McCall:Davina, it's me. Us from 2045.

19:58Mel Schilling:Oh, my God. We look fabulous.

20:00Davina McCall:We're still going strong. We're still doing workouts. We're still glowing like a lava lamp at Glasto, clearly. And I just really wanted to come back and say thank you.

20:11Mel Schilling:Thank you.

20:13Davina McCall:No, did we overcome Rogan and become number one podcast in the world? Yes, that did happen. But that's not why I'm here. I'm here to say thank you for taking Ancient and Brave's true collagen every day for the last 20 years because... So that collagen scoop in my tea every day actually did work. You bet your glowing arse it did, because when our collagen levels were supposed to drop, we supplemented with Ancient and Brave's True Collagen, my new show sponsor.

20:40Mel Schilling:The one backed by Clinical Trials using these sustainable and refillable bottles.

20:44Davina McCall:Taking it every day is a great way of supporting future you. So if you're one of our brilliant viewers and you want 20 % off your first three orders of Ancient and Brave, then head over to ancientandbrave.earth.com. That is ancientandbrave.earth.planet. And because they're a B Corp and a member of 1 % for the planet, that means that 1%, well, actually 2 % of their sales goes to protecting the planet.

21:11Mel Schilling:I hate to think how good we'll look in another 20 years.

21:18Davina McCall:Can we? Because I am dying to see what he said. So Michael Douglas is my partner. Yes. Not, listen, Catherine Zeta-Jones, if you're watching. No, you don't want his. Don't worry. It's not that one. He can't do her. He can't do her. It's my one. He has done, he's taken your list of values. Love it. And he has put them in order of importance. And I have put mine in order of importance. Brilliant. And we did it after we left each other this morning. Okay. So we do not know what we have put. This is exciting. Yeah. And what's really nice about it is that I don't mind. I think, you know, sometimes in relationships, if I was doing this publicly, I'd be terrified.

22:11Davina McCall:Oh, my God, are they going to be super different? And it doesn't really bother me. But I am super interested to see what his values are because it will help me be better maybe around him or with him.

22:26Mel Schilling:And understand him.

22:27Davina McCall:And understand him better. Exactly.

22:29Mel Schilling:Yeah. Can I ask why do you think you feel so comfortable and you're not scared, you're not worried about what's there?

22:36Davina McCall:I think because before we got together, I knew him for decades. Oh, right. so he has been my hairdresser since 1999 wow yeah and neither of us were married we didn't fancy each other at all we both married other people and had children and we spent 20 years being friends wow and work colleagues and so when I say he was my hairdresser he was my hairdresser on TV programmes so we worked together three or four days a week and for 20 years.

23:15Mel Schilling:Wow.

23:15Davina McCall:So we talk a lot, you know, about everything. I knew him better than I knew lots of my best friends. I can imagine that. Because we just spent so much time together.

23:25Mel Schilling:It's actually quite an intimate relationship. Yeah. Isn't it?

23:28Davina McCall:Yeah. And I just know him. So I know, and that's a really, I think friendship is a nice place to start. If you're going to date somebody, it's a very nice place to start because you know there are no surprises.

23:46Mel Schilling:And there's trust there. Yeah.

23:48Davina McCall:Yeah. So I'm going to pause there and we're going to get a board out. Let's get another tea. Yeah, tea, another tea. Tea, lovelies. So as if by magic, we have magicked in our board. And what we're going to do is, so you gave me these 11 values. I'm not sure that we're going to be, we'll have to squish them in a little bit. But I'm going to put my most important value first, and then you can show me Michael's most important value.

24:17Mel Schilling:And I love that you've done this separately. So neither of you know. No, we don't know. The others are. We don't know. Brilliant. And I think let's focus on your top three. Okay. Both of you. Because that's where the real magic comes. Okay. You ready? Okay. First one. Let's do it.

24:36Davina McCall:Up here. Yeah, no, I mean, no surprises here, I would imagine. Most people that watch this podcast probably know this is how I feel. And also touch is really important to me.

24:47Mel Schilling:Yeah.

24:48Davina McCall:Good sex and touch.

24:49Mel Schilling:Yeah.

24:50Davina McCall:So if I don't get this five times a day or something, like, I'm like, what's going on?

24:56Mel Schilling:Yeah.

24:58Davina McCall:It means a lot to me.

25:00Mel Schilling:What do you feel when you, if we put the sex aside and you have the touch, what does that do for you?

25:12Davina McCall:connected I feel connected yeah it's not a need for security but it's a connection I love the feel of skin on skin I love intimacy it and closeness it begin it brings closeness. That's what I love. And I think that's what makes it for me special. Like I've got real close, my best girlfriend, I love her more than anything. But the difference between Michael and my best girlfriend is that we are physically intimate, me and Michael, and that brings us closer. Yeah. And I love that.

25:52Mel Schilling:Yeah. Why do you think that's number one for you?

25:56Davina McCall:um because if we didn't have it I don't know if we would last like it's that important to my relationship as a whole physical intimacy is a really clear indicator of how we're getting on right um which is generally always good it's an indicator of um like how we're feeling in ourselves I mean obviously if there are things where we're both stressed but it's got nothing to do with each other and we don't then that doesn't But if it's because we're misfiring or something, then that makes me feel sad. Like I always think that having a healthy sex life is a great indicator of our relationship as a whole.

26:48Mel Schilling:Like a little health test. Yes.

26:50Davina McCall:And how it's going. Yes. Yeah.

26:53Mel Schilling:Okay. And it leads so beautifully on from the chat that you have with Tracy Cox recently. I love that. Yes. I love that and seeing how important that is to you. And, you know, again, you know, talking to our audience at this age, it changes.

27:08Davina McCall:Yeah, well, for lots of women it's not important, or men. Yeah. But, and I guess that's what's important about finding somebody that feels the same as you. Like, there might be somebody that loves me, but that isn't that bothered by it. But that would bother me.

27:25Mel Schilling:Yes.

27:26Davina McCall:You know.

27:27Mel Schilling:Yeah. And this is where, we'll get into this in a moment, but we can talk about there are values and then there are lifestyle preferences. Yes. Which are really values in action. Yes. So how that actually, how you live that. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. All right, are we ready to see Michael's number one? Yes. All right. Do you want to guess? Do you want to try and guess what you think? Is it good sex? No.

27:49Davina McCall:Oh, yes, of course.

27:50Mel Schilling:It's honesty.

27:51Davina McCall:Yes. Well, at least I was honest about the good sex bit. Yeah. But I know that about Michael.

27:57Mel Schilling:And why do you think that's so important to him?

28:01Davina McCall:I just think from his life and how he values I know that he values us because even if something's very difficult we will tell it like it is both of us to each other and the other one doesn't fly off the handle you know when it's a painful truth you don't go what the fuck you'll know we'll go, okay, I'll take that on board. Or like thank you, you know, we'll say thank you for your honesty even if it was something difficult to hear. So we often talk about how lovely that is that we have that together. So that's lovely.

28:43Mel Schilling:And it's interesting. I mean, at face value they might look quite different, but how do you see the interplay between the good sex and touch and intimacy and the honesty? well I think without honesty you can't have good sex right yeah and I think also

29:06Davina McCall:around good sex there has to be an openness or a willingness to talk about things or I mean that will lead to you feeling safe enough I think safety is really important for a good sex

29:21Mel Schilling:life as well you feeling safe seen heard you know i think that's a real theme and perhaps a linking point here is um feeling safe and vulnerability because both of these things at their core are about being feeling safe enough to be vulnerable because when you're really honest it makes you vulnerable and when you're having good sex you know really raw open intimate sex you're being really vulnerable as well. So it's interesting, isn't it? You've both chosen something as your highest value that relates to vulnerability.

29:58Davina McCall:Yes. We are both very open people.

30:05Mel Schilling:So number two for you, babe. Number two for me is... Oh, okay. Now we're getting some congruence. I feel very... very proud of, I guess, the person I can be around him.

30:31Davina McCall:I've always said this, like, I like who I am with him. So I feel safe. And he brings out the best in me for sure. so um it sometimes I think if I've been in an unhealthy relationship in the past it's quite hard to be honest because you think oh where's this going to go am I going to get into trouble and you can't be honest because it's not safe it's not that I've been unsafe in relationships that's not what I'm trying to say but emotionally um and it's not just my marriage because I don't want everybody to think oh she's talking about her marriage it's like way before that it's just that I feel I feel in a really the honesty is the thing that makes this different maybe from from my past I guess that the right person enables you to be honest it does and the right

31:33Mel Schilling:dynamic between the two of you um it is really interesting isn't it that honesty is up there for both of you and this is a mature relationship. You know, I think we were talking a little bit earlier about some values that change over time. And I think this is one because it takes so much strength and vulnerability to really be honest. It can be something that develops later in life and it's beautiful when you can get there. It takes bravery.

32:00Davina McCall:Shall we look at his? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. God.

32:10Mel Schilling:interesting we're starting to see why you feel together

32:14Davina McCall:wow that is so funny what does that say to you well it's just i mean that's just so nice to see isn't it really it was funny because if i'm really honest when good sex wasn't the top one i was thought oh god I wonder where it's gonna be and I wasn't worried but I did think oh god I hope I haven't like embarrassed myself by putting it so high and it's like number seven for him and I guess if I'm really honest that probably I would have probably gone home and had a conversation about that and gone oh my god is it not as important for you like are we it would have made me feel a bit like unsure so weirdly having said it didn't matter I think actually interestingly it did it kind of did yeah but now there's relief yeah well seeing that I kind of believed that our values would be similar yeah um or you know top five or whatever yeah um so this is this is really nice yeah it is interesting I was like yeah yeah no I'd be fine I don't care whatever they are because I know I love him but actually it's funny it actually means a lot more than you think it's going to mean right what part of it's funny um just that just that it's it's the same but what I what I like was that because good sex hadn't come up first and I honestly thought I thought it probably would and it wasn't I was like oh oh, God, what happens if I...

33:52Davina McCall:So I think the reason why it's funny to me is that it's relief. Yeah. That's what I'm... I'm laughing because I'm so relieved that we do feel how I thought we felt. Good. Yeah, that's what's interesting.

34:03Mel Schilling:And that there was a little bit of fear there.

34:04Davina McCall:Yeah, totally.

34:05Mel Schilling:Yeah.

34:06Davina McCall:Yeah. Which was unexpected. Unexpected. Yeah. And quite a weird feeling for me. Yeah.

34:16Mel Schilling:I imagine having put that up there first, you felt a little bit exposed. exposed yeah yeah and now this is saying there's no need to feel yeah you're there together yeah you're out on that we're in it together yeah yeah yeah okay let's see what comes next okay

34:31Davina McCall:it's some more color okay ah um i can't tell you how important this is oh the kind to me yeah um and um this is something it's not it's just something that is um inherent in michael he's just a very very very good person and um i i knew this about him all the way through our

34:59Mel Schilling:friendship like he's extremely kind why is kindness so important to you as a person

35:09Davina McCall:it's a quality that I really respect in people it's very easy not to be kind it's very easy to sometimes a short route or a funny route or a humorous route is to be cruel to someone about someone Michael is inherently a kind person wanting to make people feel good about themselves and I respect that enormously in him. And I think being kind to me, you know, when...

35:48I think sometimes, obviously, I'm famous and he's...

35:52Davina McCall:You know, he's well-known in his field. It's quite hard to look after me sometimes or... And sometimes for, you know, guys when I was younger and I was on the telly or it was quite hard to handle. Yeah. And he's always been, he's never been sort of take the piss out of me or he's cheerleads, which is a kind act, I think.

36:26Mel Schilling:And it comes from a secure place. Yes. Yeah. Which is attractive.

36:30Davina McCall:Yeah, really attractive. Yeah. Confident. Yeah. Yeah. He's not threatened. No.

36:36Mel Schilling:Yeah. And it links very closely with honesty because… Yes, I guess. Yes. Honesty is kindness, isn't it? Sometimes it's hard to be honest, but it is the kindest thing. Kindest thing. Yes. As long as it's delivered in an empathetic way.

36:52Davina McCall:I think sometimes people can become more honest as they get older.

36:56Mel Schilling:Yeah.

36:56Davina McCall:Like you become more confident.

37:02Davina McCall:You know, it's an easier thing as you get older.

37:06Mel Schilling:It takes incredible courage to be honest and open. I think most of us, if we're being real, would say that there are aspects of ourselves that we're constantly holding back, keeping from people, and to be able to get to the point that you're at now where you're in this relationship that's absolutely blossoming because you are both, you know, being open and vulnerable and honest. I mean, that's really special. I do feel very lucky. Is it luck or is it what you've created and what you deserve? Yeah, well, yeah.

37:40Davina McCall:I mean, that's a really nice way of looking at it. And it takes work, doesn't it? Yes, yes, show me, show me, show me. It's ongoing. Yes. I mean, the interesting thing is, is that I don't think I'm particularly funny, but he is hilarious.

37:55Mel Schilling:You don't think you're funny? No.

37:57Davina McCall:You're hilarious. I feel like I'm funny by mistake.

38:02Davina McCall:Accidentally funny. Accidentally funny. And that's sexy too.

38:06Mel Schilling:Oh, yes. Yes, absolutely. There's been some interesting research done on that around attraction and one of the things they've found is that if the values are aligned and your lifestyle preferences are working well together, the laughs will come and it's when you're laughing that the real attraction starts to happen because you get into that flavor mode and you drop your guard and you flirt. Humour and fun is such an important part of the mix.

38:37Davina McCall:I think quite interestingly he is very funny with me in the fact that he can be very rude to me. But I used to get offended if people took the piss out of me. I wasn't very good at it. I would find it hard to handle, maybe because I was a bit insecure. And he literally, well, I went out for dinner with him, my best friend and her husband last night. And my best friend and him like literally ripped into me and I was howling with laughter because I know they care about me. Yeah, because it's coming from a kind voice. So it's so interesting how that's changed for me in this relationship that actually I quite like it when he takes the piss out of me because it feels like a loving act.

39:32Mel Schilling:Well, is that one of his ways of showing love?

39:35Davina McCall:Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Definitely.

39:36Mel Schilling:And he does it in a kind way so you know how to perceive it.

39:39Davina McCall:It's so funny.

39:41Mel Schilling:And I think, you know, the humour and the good sex are a really important mix as well, you know, Because like we were talking about before with conception sex or any kind of sex, even sex after menopause, there can be some bumps in the road. So to be able to have that humour hat on, have a laugh.

39:58Davina McCall:Yes.

39:58Mel Schilling:Laugh at yourself. Yeah, you can laugh in bed. Yeah. Yes. It's great. Yes.

40:04Davina McCall:Maphrodisiac. Yes. Yeah. But preferably not at certain things or points. No.

40:12Mel Schilling:Pick your moments.

40:13Davina McCall:Yes, pick your moments. Okay. What's next? Next one. Okay. So we have, oh, no, hang on, it wasn't that. A little preview. Ah, okay.

40:29Davina McCall:So one of my favourite things about Michael is his brain. He is off the charts smart. But if he went back to university or back to school or something, he could study physics or quantum physics. He loves quantum physics. He's a force to be reckoned with brain-wise, and I find that incredibly attractive in him.

40:54Mel Schilling:So back to you and why that's important to you, would you say that intelligence has been an enduring value throughout your life that's important to you or has it come later in life? I think I like talking.

41:08Davina McCall:If I can't talk things through or dissect something or have you read this and I feel really lonely. You know, it's possible to go out with someone, have a boyfriend and to feel a bit lonely because you can't talk. Yeah. So actually really talking to somebody or unpicking something.

41:33Davina McCall:And I always look at comedians and I think comedians are very clever. You can't be that clever without being. I mean, you can't be that funny without being clever. Yeah. I admire intelligence in people and I like being brought up. Right. You know, I like it when I learn something from someone. I find that very attractive, like teach me something. Yeah. I don't know.

42:01Mel Schilling:Do you see yourself as intelligent?

42:04Davina McCall:I never did when I was younger. And then I had a test, like a nonverbal reasoning and a verbal reasoning test before my operation. and I did very, very well in nonverbal reasoning and I had always thought I was a bit stupid and it's changed my whole life and it's made me very, very sad for the way that I spoke to myself all my life.

42:31Mel Schilling:What kind of things would you say to yourself previously?

42:34Davina McCall:You're not smart, don't bother or you can't do this or if you were to take me to a dinner full of really smart people I would be really nervous because I just think I can't, I can't keep up with these people. I flunked out of my maths A level. I was like, what am I doing this for? This is stupid. I mean, I was taking loads of drugs at the time. So, duh. Of course I was going to struggle. But I'd quite like to go back and take my maths A level to prove to myself that I can do it.

43:03Mel Schilling:That would be an amazing thing to do.

43:04Davina McCall:Yeah, it would be nice. Just for me.

43:05Mel Schilling:Yeah. You don't have to share it with anyone. No, exactly. Yeah, just for you.

43:09Davina McCall:Yeah, but I'm just, it did slightly make me feel sad that I did used to beat myself up when I was younger for something that wasn't true of myself. And how many times do we do that through our lives? We feed the wrong message to our brains and we become that wrong message and that's really sad.

43:29Mel Schilling:Absolutely. And that goes back to what we were talking about earlier with the mindset stuff and the self-talk. Yeah. And so often those voices are not even our own. You know, it's someone else. Maybe it's family or people you went to school with saying you're dumb, you're not good with numbers. Yes. And we make that our own. But we don't have to.

43:48Davina McCall:No.

43:50Mel Schilling:Ah. Ah. Yay. We are aligning beautifully. Oh, that's so nice. Yeah. Beautiful alignment here.

44:02Davina McCall:Yeah. That's so great. I'm going to put the next one up because we could quite possibly be here for five hours if I don't hurry.

44:14Mel Schilling:Now I'm laughing because it is funny. Let's just keep going. Yeah. Oh, romantic. Oh. And romantic, if you really wanted to look at it, is like a combination of all of these things, isn't it?

44:28Davina McCall:You see, this is quite interesting because I didn't put it that high up romantic. But he is amazing. So, but I didn't put it out because things like, we don't do Valentine's Day. We don't do the big romantic gestures that people are expected to do with the thing because we don't need to because every day is romantic.

44:52Mel Schilling:Well, it depends how you define it, right?

44:54Davina McCall:Yes.

44:54Mel Schilling:Isn't it? Yes, I think. How would he define it? Why do you think he's put it there?

44:58Davina McCall:I think he's put it there because it's thought. Right. It's the thought.

45:04Mel Schilling:Yeah. Holding you in the top of his thoughts.

45:07Davina McCall:I'm going to carry on. Okay.

45:13Mel Schilling:Oh, there it is. Davina, something tells me you two could be a good match. I think you should get married at first sight.

45:25Davina McCall:Do you know what's funny? It's like I can't. Oh, that thing. Yeah, brilliant. is that I used to kind of hold getting married quite high up.

45:37Mel Schilling:Like it's not important to me anymore.

45:40Davina McCall:It's quite interesting that.

45:42Mel Schilling:Why do you think that is? Is it because you've done it?

45:46Davina McCall:Because we've done it and because we're such good friends and like it's not important. It's not going to add anything.

45:54Mel Schilling:And do you feel that perhaps something is more important to other people outside the relationship? Yes, totally.

46:00Davina McCall:Everybody's telling us all the time because they want it. They want a wedding. They want a wedding. They want it. They want it. He is the most stylish dresser ever. He dresses so well. Every day I'm like, oh, God. He's like, if he wears a red stripy T-shirt, he'll wear red socks with black shirts. Like it's all going on. On purpose. On purpose. Is that smart? Mel, it's brilliant. It's so good. Yeah, I really like that about him. And it's hugely attractive when somebody cares about the way that they look.

46:44Mel Schilling:Yeah, the self-respect bit. Yes.

46:46Davina McCall:It's really nice. And we're not embarrassed to be stylish together. Do you couple dress? No. But we like to make a... Oh. Oh, yes, sirree.

46:58Mel Schilling:Very similar.

46:59Davina McCall:Yeah, I mean, it is similar, isn't it? Yeah.

47:02Mel Schilling:It's the aesthetic. You know, you're both creative people. You're both in the public eye.

47:09Davina McCall:Yeah, I see that. I wonder what my, I'm just quite interested what my next one. Oh. I was thinking, God, where is looks for me? But it's, yes.

47:23Mel Schilling:so looking at those two lists do you feel like they're in the right order for the two of you yes makes sense yep totally i would say honesty is michael's most important

47:35Davina McCall:thing that he would he would say that yeah yeah it makes complete sense and i think mine would make complete sense to him too he won't be surprised no sees this no yeah and um i i can't wait to take a picture of it and take it back to him can i can i ask you something so say like a couple were at home have you brought out these cards at home you know once a year you could say right on the first of january every year let's bring out our values i think it's a really nice idea to talk through. I mean, even just you and me talking through it, I feel like I've had marriage guidance therapy. It's been amazing.

48:20Davina McCall:And he's not even here.

48:21Mel Schilling:No. It's just from your perspective. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That would definitely be something that we could do great for couples. Oh, it's so good.

48:34Davina McCall:I want to, shall we finish? No, let's do the last two. Let's do them quite quickly. Okay. Or three. What do we love? So, money. I've got next. All right. And then he's got style. Style, okay, yeah. Then after money, I've got occupation.

48:52Mel Schilling:Okay. So there he's got money. So we're getting into pretty similar territory now. I mean, honestly, we're...

49:00Davina McCall:And then once children, because obviously that's off the cards really for both. Occupation. Oh, God. That's interesting, isn't it? And once children. Oh, my God. Hang on, I've got to put this here. So you end it pretty much the same. They are the same. Yeah. God, how funny. Brilliant.

49:21Mel Schilling:So interesting. And so reaffirming.

49:25Davina McCall:Yes. I mean, so reaffirming.

49:29Mel Schilling:I'm definitely going to put you together. Yeah. Definitely. Yep. Great. Good match. Great match. And so would these be what you would do on maths? We do. Use values behind the scenes when we're watching. but I've also had the opportunity to sit with some couples like this and actually do it with real cards and that's where the real power comes from. We don't always have time but when we do I love it because I can just get right into it and go really deep. Love it.

49:55Davina McCall:So one more thing I really, really want to cover and then I promise you I am going to let you go at some point, Mel. You will be allowed to leave me. But before you do go, So it's something that I think is really important to talk about for men and for women. How do we talk about it? How do we make sure that we're doing the right thing? And that is consent.

50:18Mel Schilling:Yeah.

50:19Davina McCall:Huge issue. It is massive, I feel.

50:22Mel Schilling:Yeah. And if we think about our listeners and where they might be at in their journey, having been in the dating and relationship space many years ago, so different. So different. in terms of the way the climate's changed, but also the way we've changed and what we now understand if we perhaps start talking about from a woman's perspective, we now understand that we can say no if we're not comfortable. We don't have to be obligated to go all the way with someone. And I think what's been most enlightening for me in really learning about consent is two things. One, it needs to be enthusiastic.

51:01Davina McCall:Yes, okay. I like that.

51:03Mel Schilling:It is not just a, yeah, okay. It's, yes, I absolutely want to do this, whether that's verbal or nonverbal, but showing enthusiasm. And number two, it's continuous.

51:15Davina McCall:Yes.

51:15Mel Schilling:I think that's the most important part because that means that you can actually withdraw consent at any point throughout your sexual experience. And I think that's very new. It's a new concept because, you know, many years ago the idea would be.

51:29Davina McCall:I've always liked that before. Right.

51:31Mel Schilling:Or you gave me a kiss. Therefore, that's an open door to have sex. Or I paid for your dinner. Therefore, you owe me sex.

51:39Davina McCall:Yes.

51:39Mel Schilling:All of that stuff is irrelevant now. And it's now come down to that communication between those two partners or three or whoever's involved, the people who are involved. It's about that open communication and continuous communication. So this now means that if someone is entering into the sexual realm with you, it's not just about doing it. It's about talking about doing it. So this is where all of that conversation stuff becomes so important.

52:08Davina McCall:I mean, sometimes talking about doing it is foreplay. You know, it's like it's sexy in itself. But what happens if you start talking about it? Because I think if you're going to, it would be, is it? Sorry, I'm not making myself clear here, but I'm just thinking while I'm going. that if you go out on a few dates with somebody and you've sent lots of messages, I don't know, maybe it would be something that you might want to message so you're not having to do this face-to-face, but it's like, do you have any clear boundaries before we have sex if you know you're going to have sex? Or is that too much?

52:47Mel Schilling:Is that too obvious? Do you know what? I think we can learn so much from Gen Z here. Those are the kinds of conversations they're having and it's normalized. Right. It's a bit trickier for us because it's uncomfortable, but we can learn so much from them. I like the idea of having a consent contract with yourself. And this is something you can do before going on a date. And you can sit down with a piece of paper and just write down the things that I'm comfortable to do tonight. This is a contract with me. It's not about them. It's about me. Yes, nice. I'm happy to kiss. I'm happy to touch, et cetera.

53:22Mel Schilling:And these are the things I don't want to do.

53:24Davina McCall:Yes.

53:24Mel Schilling:And take it with you. Have it in your bag. So if you need to, if you get a bit wobbly, you can go back and check on it. It's a contract with yourself. And I think these kinds of tools can be really, really helpful as you're learning, you know, to start navigating this new world of consent because it is different and it won't come naturally. But then I guess the next piece is how do I say it? Yeah. Because that is hard. Yeah. You know, I think you make a good point there with the texting because these days, The beauty of communication is it's multifaceted.

53:56Davina McCall:Yes.

53:56Mel Schilling:It doesn't all have to be verbal face-to-face. You can use other mediums. So if you're more comfortable before a date saying, really looking forward to seeing you tonight, just letting you know I won't be staying over but really happy to enjoy dinner and maybe a drink afterwards, setting that expectation so it takes a lot of the pressure off.

54:15Davina McCall:I mean, even when you said that and I'm not even on a date, It made me kind of go, you know, like the relief. You're not thinking, oh, my God, is he expecting me to go back? It is a different game, isn't it, altogether nowadays, the dating game. It's so challenging, I think, for people our age who haven't done it before.

54:44Mel Schilling:Or have just, to use one of my mum's terms, put up with it.

54:49Davina McCall:Right.

54:50Mel Schilling:So I think of women now dating, maybe in our age and older, who maybe in previous relationships didn't feel comfortable with sexual activity but just did it.

54:59Davina McCall:Yes.

55:00Mel Schilling:Because that's what they should do. Now finding their voice to actually say, well, firstly, to acknowledge it to themselves, to go, oh, that feels wrong, I'm not comfortable with that, but then to actually articulate it. It's the kind of thing that I think can take a little bit of practice and this is where you can take the consent conversation out of the sexual realm and into the domestic or normal life realm and start practising it. Yes. Even if it's saying things like, okay, if you're asking for consent, asking someone before you hug them.

55:34Davina McCall:Is it okay if we hug? I do that with everybody that I don't know when they ask for a selfie. Right. Can I put my hand on your shoulder?

55:43Mel Schilling:Beautiful. That's good.

55:43Davina McCall:Yeah, but I've only started doing that maybe in the last sort of 10 years. Okay, that's consent. Or I just used to hug everybody.

55:52Mel Schilling:Not everybody wants it.

55:53Davina McCall:But I did that because of my kids.

55:55Mel Schilling:Right. And so how does that work in the other way around? Like if we're thinking about someone who's learning to express that they're not comfortable with boundaries, starting to express those in other realms that aren't sexual. So, for example, if someone does put their arm around you, for example, in a workplace or you're standing in line for a coffee and someone's getting too close.

56:18Davina McCall:Do you know, I would find it very hard to say something. Okay. I would, because I would think that people were thinking I was being difficult.

56:27Mel Schilling:You can do it non-verbal. But that's bad, isn't it? Well, you've been socially conditioned. That's not your fault. You know, that's what we've been told to believe. You can do it in a non-verbal way. So for example, if someone's behind me in the line, I'm lining up for a coffee and they're too close, I'll turn around, give them a look and move away a little bit. And so non-verbally, I can be saying to them, too close, mate.

56:48Davina McCall:Yes, okay.

56:49Mel Schilling:Yeah, or on the tube, classic example. Yeah. Always opportunities, people too close to you on the tube. And that's probably a good place to start practicing it, actually, to start giving someone the look. So eye contact to say, I'm serious, I'm not comfortable with this, and then move yourself away. creating a physical barrier between yourself and the uncomfortable situations a good move so whether that's literally moving to the other side of the train um putting a book up you know those sorts of things a good practice that will help you that when you get into that sexual dilemma that might be a bit uncomfortable you'll be a little bit more comfortable saying it that's

57:30Davina McCall:actually really important to do the little steps in a social situation beforehand to give yourself the confidence to be able to do it in a bedroom or somewhere a bit more intimate where it might be hard or otherwise. Baby steps. I was thinking that what about if you've been with somebody for 15 years and you are thinking I want to spice up our life and but then it's like asking consent for something that you've never tried before and you're a bit worried that your partner might go what like or overreact like how do you broach that kind of topic like I don't know what it might be but it might be something frisky or fruity that you've never done before and you think oh god

58:14Mel Schilling:it's all part of the continuous consent conversation you know so just because you've you've consented to it before doesn't mean you will now bringing something new in you've got to have the conversation you know I think this is we're coming back to all those values we were talking about with you and Michael with the humor and the trust and the honesty having all of those elements in place enable you to have those beautiful conversations and to maybe not take it too seriously and say, look, I feel like a bit of a dick, but you know, I really want to try bringing a third person in. What do you think?

58:44Mel Schilling:You know, haven't done it before. Should we try it? How would you feel?

58:48Davina McCall:And I guess even if you don't want that, just listen, go, God, I totally understand what you're saying, but I really, and then nobody being offended.

59:01Mel Schilling:Yeah.

59:01Davina McCall:That's the key, isn't it i hear you yeah um i don't think i'm really ready don't i'll go away and process what you're saying and i'll come back to you but i'm not sure how i feel about it but it's not like nobody should be shamed in that situation because it's brave and honest yes yeah and that's what

59:23Mel Schilling:makes it safe and safety is key yeah safe safety is sexy safety sexy yeah well if you me everything

59:34Davina McCall:is yeah i love it on that mel i'm gonna come over here and hug you um full consent full consent

59:53Thank you.