Fearne Cotton: I'm Saying No More and It Feels Great! At 43 I Feel More Me Than Ever.

0:00At Sierra, discover great deals on top brand workout gear, like high quality walking shoes, which might lead to another discovery. 40 ,000 steps, baby. Who's on top now, Karen? You've taken the office step challenge a step too far. Don't worry, though. Sierra also has yoga gear. It might be a good place to find your zen. Discover top brands at unexpectedly low prices. Sierra, let's get moving. Two weeks in, I was on my knees, and all of those male columnists were awful back in that era. And one guy, he said that he wished, oh, wait, put the car in park a moment. What did you just say? So, Fern, tell me.

0:40The post-Kids TV, Fern, was it you? I felt at that time, oh, God, I'm so uncool. You thought you were uncool. Oh, but I was. I was deeply uncool. Fern, no. You did a pivot, an extraordinary career pivot. Talk me through that process. Right, I don't really want to do radio anymore, and there's no telework. No one's ringing me. I'm not getting offered anything at all. I'm just sat there feeling really insecure. What happened there? You're not flavour of the month anymore. What did that feel like? How do you overcome a thing that you feel is now something that you can no longer do? Knowing that other people feel like you do is not to be underestimated.

1:25There's definitely going to be massive road bumps and failure and getting things wrong, and that's okay. The most important thing I've learned is that I feel like I'm really proud of you. Hey, and welcome to my first ever episode of Begin Again. So excited. Basically, I think we get to a stage in our lives where we have a bit more freedom. You know, we can start kind of feeling a bit more like we can wear what we like and say what we like and do what we like. But sometimes we also feel a bit stuck and a bit unsure of what to do. And how do we move forwards? And how do we pivot jobs? And how do we live the best life possible?

2:14How do we follow a spiritual path? There are so many questions. And I want to bring you the answers. I want to go on this journey with you. And it starts here. So let's begin again. You turn 40 and you've talked a lot about the joy of getting to this stage of your life. And part of that is understanding you, but through that, understanding you because you understand your family. Yeah. Yeah, without a doubt. I think I turned 43 this week and yeah, it's great. I mean, right? It's great. You know, women are constantly, and this is so obvious, I'm not saying anything new here, but talked about like ageing is such a terrible thing and that, you know, we have to do so much and spend so much money to try and stop it happening.

3:07I'm only experiencing great things. And I know that there's shit, you know, there could be women in their 60s, 70s watching this going, oh, wait till you get to my age, there's pain and whatever. And I know that's all coming and there's all sorts of stages and phases. But I'm talking about a sense of feeling like I'm in my own body and feeling like I can be me rather than a filtered version of myself or an extra version of myself because I'm not quite enough or whatever I might have thought in my 20s. I'm just going to turn up as me now and that will differ on any given day. But actually, I really like the feeling of that comfort of just being myself, especially in this bloody job.

3:53Well, it's relaxing. Yes. Isn't it? I'm expending less energy on having to be something I'm not. And trying to be something you're not is fucking exhausting. and I like what you said of I am enough I was having a chat with Marissa Peer about and I said you know okay what what would be the one golden nugget and she said to write I am enough on your fridge on your mirror on your because it is probably overarchingly the biggest thing that the vast majority of people that go and see her for therapy feel that they are not enough yeah I mean, I haven't entirely nailed that one. I think hopefully... You've had moments.

4:40Yeah, and I think incrementally it gets, it becomes a more natural inclination, but I think also you become more cognizant of the moments where you do feel okay, and then I don't waste four hours after a social encounter worrying about what I said, what I didn't say, replaying the whole conversation over in my head eight times, wanting to call them and say, oh, you know, I think I said I didn't mean, you know, I used to waste hours doing that, not sleeping because of it. That I'm more aware of when I'm doing that, when I'm not doing that. And I feel more confident in liking myself, even if I have said something stupid.

5:24Warts and all. Yeah. I'm not beating myself up because I did something that was a bit off because we're all a bit off. And that's okay. Everyone is. And there's less, I think there's less tolerance for it in our job today than ever. And that's a problem. And that stresses me out. But in my everyday life, I'm getting much better at going, oh God, just don't worry about it. It doesn't matter. You can still like yourself. Where do you think this staying up all night and thinking about something and going over something you said comes from? Is there an event in your life where you think, oh, my God, you know, I said this to someone and this happened?

6:03Yes. Yes. I mean, I went through a whole ton of shit in my late 20s, early 30s. And I guess I've spent the last seven years writing and talking around events, but never about them necessarily. talking more about the feelings and the repercussions and the hangover from it and it was a deeply challenging era that still troubles me greatly and I'm still in therapy every damn week and I'm very lucky to be able to do so and I'm still triggered by the same things. I'm still unnerved by stuff in my past. But there is a lovely incremental climbing out of a big deep ditch that I was in. And it is a bit of a wiggly line, but it's definitely a wiggly line that goes up.

7:09And I really, really felt it. We just had the Happy Place Festival in Manchester. Yeah, I saw that. And on the Sunday, I felt so overwhelmed, but in the best way. And I stood on the stage thanking everyone for coming and I could have wept my heart out. But I was so happy and I was so content and I was so comfy with feeling like it was okay to have all those people there, not sort of undeserving or like out-of-body experience. I thought, yeah, I've done this and this is fucking great. and I felt really happy and um but in my body I wasn't like euphoric floating around and it really made me think back to like say 13 years ago an unrecognizable person who no way could have done that but I've still got a long way to go there is no way I would want to host a live tv show I would want to host a live radio show there is no way that I could sleep in um I don't know a house with a bunch of people that I don't know really really well or even I do know well sleep's a massive issue still so I've still got these really niche things that I can't get over yes I cannot get and I will but I feel and I've got over like I couldn't drive on the motorway at one point for about five years I didn't drive in the motorway and I have conquered that one so I know they're conquerable but I can't do it at the moment I don't know why I really really struggle with those three things and there are a few others but they're the big ones um that I I don't even know where to begin but if you said oh you've got to go and do live tv show now and present it like I did for hundreds of years before.

9:00No way. There's no way. So you were okay doing it at the beginning? Oh, more than okay. I was complacent. I was just like talking to you now. There was no switch that went on where I was on live TV. I was just doing it. You know, from a very young age, I did live TV from 16. That's Disney, right? Yeah, we did Dig It, which was, I did Disney Club, which was pre-recorded then from 16 onwards. And then Dig It, yeah. Dig It was live. Smile was live, did with Reggie. um had a whole host of live tv shows back to back top of the pops was live at one point I didn't even feel nervous I used to love it used to thrive in that environment now I would have a panic attack in heartbeat there's no way and it's not even directly rooted to that era there's nothing about what I was going through that is directly related to the outcome but that's the weird thing I think with going through challenging stuff that it these sort of darts these arrows end up going into all these different bits of your life that are unrelated and you can't figure out the root of it or why but they're there and they become you know you become sort of obsessional about them which is the problem so I would like to tackle those down the line luckily my career isn't dependent on it these days and I'm grateful for that but I would like to just for my own confidence and just to sort of overcome more areas, especially the sleep one.

10:25I would love to sort that out. Talk me through your sleep. My sleep is not great. I mean, I just have to have the right environment and then I can sleep. So I, for the majority of the time, sleep in the spare room because I am so obsessional about noise, whether it's my husband's snoring, which many people do, or if I'm in a new environment like I'm not a fan of hotels because I don't know if there's going to be thick enough double glazing or if doors are going to shut in corridors if I hear like doors shutting I know I'm screwed like this I will not sleep and before I could sleep anywhere I would be able to sleep on the rug there in a heartbeat you know I spent my life in my 20s going from different time zones I never got jet lagged I just sleep anywhere now any noise and I'm on high alert and then my heart starts racing and I can feel panic and adrenaline and these big adrenaline rushes and then I'm just up all night so and I that relates again to like if I had well I was still pushing through and sort of um if I was covering for Zoe on radio too I used to cover for her on breakfast knowing that I had that the next day I definitely wouldn't sleep and I'd be catastrophizing all night catastrophizing and I can do it with my eyes closed like I know how that show works I love doing it when I'm there but the level of catastrophizing would give me these big adrenaline rushes and then I would just be awake all night and it got to the point where you know two weeks in I was on my knees and I had to say to the head of Radio 2 I love doing this show so much and I could do it with such ease but the night before is torture and I can't do it to myself anymore and it was horrible saying that I wanted to do the job but I couldn't do it and I still couldn't do it now there's no way so god this is this is amazing because i i i read you as like such a calm person but i think you keep yourself in a calm environment yeah in an environment that's safe for you yeah but i still you know so there was i don't want you to talk about something you don't want to talk about so there was something that happened yeah that triggered uh but you didn't really have anxiety at all before that?

12:41No, no, no. I don't suppose I did. I mean, I... No, I don't suppose... I don't think I'd ever felt... I mean, I understand normal nerves for a live TV show, but... Absolutely. Like nerves if I had a big new... Like when I started doing Children of Need when I was in my early 20s, you know, that was a big deal. I was in love with Sir Terry and I still am. And that felt like, you know, there would be healthy nerves. But I would do the job just fine. I would sleep the night before. Right. I'd feel fine. but that has gone out the window maybe it's possible to go back to fiend like that but it's so weird because say doing this or say when i'm doing my podcast or on a stage doing a big talk in front of thousands of people feel fine totally fine like unbelievably calm and actually so connected to what i'm doing and engaged with it i'm not disassociating i'm not floating out my body I love it like doing the festival this weekend we had thousands of people I'm doing talks on the stage absolutely fine with public speaking it's something about being in other people's domain like doing something for the BBC doing something for ITV where I'm not on my turf yeah I'm on their turf anyone could say anything to me I've got to deliver what they you want me to deliver?

14:01Do I know what that even is? How am I meant to be? It's all too confusing for my brain and the pressure is way too much, way too much. So I have found, luckily, ways of forging a new career. I'm so grateful I've had a part two, which is on my terms and it's been a slow burn, but we're in a really good place now. And it works for me and I can create projects where I feel safe and I feel comfortable, luckily. And I feel like I've got a purpose behind it now, which I maybe didn't before. Didn't necessarily have that, like this is why I'm getting out of bed in the morning. So I've been really, really lucky that I can keep working because for some people you can't, you know, you can't do that one thing that you know how to do.

14:50So I've been able to shapeshift a little bit, but, you know, it's been rough along the way, but it feels good now. And how long ago did you get that shift? What, in feeling good about it? Well, in feeling like from not being anxious to anxious. When did that change? Oh, do you know what? It's really weird because I think when I was going through all the tricky stuff, the initial reaction was a very low mood. I was in a bit of a black hole. I went on antidepressants for a bit because I just couldn't quite function in my everyday life. And it was actually a really amazing friend who had the balls, quite frankly, to say to me, you are repeating yourself every day and you're saying the same thing.

15:44And it's actually quite worrying now. So we're going to go and see someone. I would never have gone to see a doctor if she hadn't said to me, I think you need to do something about this. so that's when I went on antidepressants um only for a short while it was maybe six months just to sort of get my head above the ground and then there was a period where I was a bit flat but I was kind of you know okay and you know had very happy moments throughout this like the birth of my children getting married you know I had some big big highs and I really enjoyed them there was no nothing none of the magic was taken away from those things thank god I think it's important to talk about that in the context of depression because for me it wasn't one thing it was at the start and then it would there were peaks and troughs and there were beautiful moments in that period um but and then weirdly about four years after that the panic started out of the blue and I wonder personally if it was because I was coming out of the low mood and all of a sudden I had to go, I've got to deal with all this stuff that I can see.

16:52And before I was just fingers in ears, not looking. So then the panic kicked in and I had my first panic attack. I was driving on the motorway. I'd been fine driving forever. Oh, that's why you were scared of motion waves. Yeah, so then that became a trigger. But then that sort of initial bit, everything was a trigger. Travelling too fast, things being too loud, feeling out of control. Could be anything sort of unexpected things happening, like bumping into someone that I knew could destabilize me to the point where I couldn't remember their name. But I knew them really well. And then I'd start panicking that I didn't know their name.

17:31So I couldn't say it out loud. Could be anything. So that was a period of sort of panic. And then the panic attacks are a lot less frequent now. but that might be because I don't put myself in those situations so I don't do live telly I don't do live radio um I try and sleep in an environment where I know I can I'd like to change that one um so I don't I haven't had one for I don't know when the last time was months and months and months ago this is a lot to live with isn't it it's like it's um you're I put on my Instagram bio I'm a work in progress yep but I feel like you're a work in progress you know that something something's triggered this and then now you're living with it but you're working hard I feel like to try and come through it you're not like just throwing your hands up in the air and going I give up no but but like you said about the arrows you can only sort out one problem at a time you can't go right I'm going to get rid of all of my anxiety it's like okay I've done the motorway driving yeah how do you how do you do that because there'll be people watching who are suffering with deep anxiety and it's like how do you overcome a thing that you feel is is now something that you can no longer do well I did um during the pandemic I tried uh EMDR is that the right order of letters I think it is yes EMDR could you explain to people what that is So I'd heard about it from a friend who had had great success with it.

19:11And it's an eye movement or bilateral tapping therapy. So it's either you do this sequence of this therapeutic sort of sequence where your eyes are either moving. I was on a screen because it was obviously in lockdown to the sides of a screen or some people, some therapists will use a stick that people follow. It could be a dot on a screen. I struggled with the eye movement. So I ended up doing this bilateral tapping. All therapists who work in this way would have a different method. but the particular therapists I work with gave me the tools to think of when I'm at my happiest and to really visualize a place and a space where I'm really calm, really happy, really safe, really cozy.

20:01And that's a really important part of it because you have to always be able to go back to that. Then you go through the nitty gritty of reliving stuff that has felt very challenging. And that isn't fun. You know, I dreaded doing this therapy, absolutely dreaded it. And I found it exhausting to do it. That said, I'm extremely lucky that I found someone who could do it. I'm very lucky that I could afford to pay to do it because this is the massive systemic problem that we have on the planet. But certainly in the UK, access to these treatments, the waiting lists are long. They are not cheap. so I'm extremely fortunate that I got to try this out and I did it on off for about six months and we weren't targeting any particular problematic area I was just going through the motions of reliving some stuff but for some reason it enabled me to feel like oh I could drive on the motorway I think today I don't know why and you know it wasn't just like I got in the car and drove I was really shitting myself the first time and I could feel the swell of panic but I was able to just kind of simmer it down and now I'm pretty okay I'll have a bit of a when I first get on the motorway and then I'm okay and I sort of listen to a podcast usually to distract myself and just get out of the headspace of worrying about it um so I could probably do another course of that and see what other areas it it's sort of I mean that's hard though because you were saying reliving yeah that dark stuff is like you know it's going to help you in the long run but it's very hard sometimes to do that yeah um what other what other things have you found that have really helped you I'll tell you the one thing that's been the biggest blessing is starting Happy Place.

21:56It has been in every way, like it's totally saved me in ways. That sounds so dramatic, but it sort of has because I've still got a job and I literally wouldn't have had one. I don't know what I'd be doing. I'd be kicking around going, please someone give me a TV show that I don't really give a shit about, but I'll do it. Like that's where I'd be. um and also the the the knowing that other people feel like you do is not to be underestimated like when I first told a few of my mates or maybe even sort of said it publicly like oh I've been having panic attacks I had 10 people that I know really well text me and say why haven't we been talking about I've I have these or like someone one of my friends who's in her 70s went oh my god when I was your age, the amount of overwhelm I felt that would lead to panic.

22:46And I just saw her as this robust, amazing person. So I think that has been huge. And also finding the right few people, one of them being a therapist, but actually the majority of them being friends, that I can sit and say, I feel like this, or this thing really worries me, or I feel shame because of and knowing they're not judging me has honestly diminished I would say 80 % of the really the shame that I felt around all the feelings I had and where I was at in my head it just wiped it out of the equation because I thought well if they're not judging me maybe this isn't all so awful like maybe this is this is okay and I'm I give myself a really hard time I'm a real perfectionist.

23:41So I expect too much of myself, but also our job and the way that we can be scrutinized, vilified. One sentence we've said can be pulled apart and our whole personality, like just totally pulled apart, annihilated. I have deeply struggled with. So then I give myself even more of a hard time. oh I am an awful person because John from Birmingham said I am oh my god I am absolutely terrible because Susan from Balkaner said I am you know I've absolutely clung on to those those comments I don't even know if they're real people at the end of the day they could be bots or they could be people that are struggling their own lives but I've used that as ammunition against myself so I definitely need people that I can use as a soundboard and hopefully do the same for them to go, this is all fine.

24:33Like, you're all right. You're just a human bumbling through life. And so am I, you know, for us all to have that commonality. It's a big one. You know, all of us really in the days when kind of there was a free-for-all in the press really to just sort of, they were just having a go at everybody all the time. It was absolutely bonkers. But I forget how young you were. Yeah. Because I didn't get famous until I was 25. and I was on MTV and that was quite niche. Not that many people watched MTV. It was kind of worldwide, but, you know, it was quite niche. Like I could still go out. But you went on primetime television at how old?

25:16Well, I was on ITV at 15, yeah. I mean, that's nuts. Yeah. Tell me what that was like because effectively you spent your childhood with us. Do you know what? Those first, I don't know, maybe seven years were amazing. They were amazing. I had this brilliant woman in my life, well, she still is, called Maddie Darrell, who is still one of the biggest kids TV producers out there. She created, she worked on Disney Club, she created Dig It, Smile, all those early kids TV shows. and her level of nurturing and care for all of us in that pool you know certainly me and Reggie who you know we've gone through the whole thing together which is an amazing thing to have him by my side for that whole thing we've been through thick and thin together and I was really cared for it wasn't traumatic um at all and we didn't have the internet really kicking off until a bit down the line certainly no social media so I would do a show go home and then go to a dance class so I didn't think about the show ever again I just done it and I didn't worry if I was good bad I just did it I didn't give a toss afterwards and I didn't start considering any of that probably until yeah probably when I started doing adult tv like top of the pops and stuff but then I don't think I got too much shit then I remember when I started radio one that's when it really kicked in you know you're on a really open forum in terms of the feedback because you've got texts coming in the whole time and all of those male columnists were awful back in that era like I remember one sort of I remember all of them verbatim the bad ones because you do like you read them in the paper they stay in your brain and one guy who I'm not going to even give the time of day to like mention his name I'd done this tv show with lovely Ben Shepard who we are all in love with and we did this bungee jump thing together and he said that he wished the bungee rope had snapped and I died I mean and you're just a young woman in her early 20s going am I that awful am I that bad at my job am I that unlikable and I think that's when my confidence started to seriously dissolve having that like a grown man and I think I just thought at that point I'm not a proper adult these are proper adults who know and I'm in I thought I was in the wrong that I was doing a bad job I didn't for a minute think he's wrong I felt angry but I think the the the big takeaway for me when I read those things was there's something wrong with me I am awful and I'm shit and I'm bad at my job oh without a doubt without a doubt and then having that sort of compounded with social media down the line and people just saying whatever they want whenever they want you know it's and I I sometimes think, how did I even carry on doing that job every day?

28:19I don't know. I think people do far harder jobs. I'm not saying people who are doing actually important work in the medical fields or science, whatever. I don't think they have that constant critique. But it was horrible. It was horrible. So I don't put myself in that environment anymore because I don't want to. I don't want to be a dartboard for everyone to just pin their thoughts to. I really don't. I'm not up for it. I'm not interested in your opinion. I know that I'm good at my job today. I know that I'm good at interviewing people. So say whatever the fuck you want, I will keep on doing it.

28:56But I don't want to put myself in an arena where everyone can just say whatever the hell they want. one of the things I really really really love I mean there's so many things I love about you right but you did a pivot an extraordinary career pivot with Happy originally it was a book and then Happy Place it was such a brave and bold thing to do talk me through that process It didn't feel brave at all, if I'm honest. I felt, well, with the book, I just thought, oh, I guess I could write a book about, I could write an honest book because I'd never been honest before that. Yeah, we didn't really know you.

29:44No, but were any of us given the space to be ourselves? No. No, we would do a TV show, there'd be an auto queue, and we would read it. And then we would, you know, do a press interview and be as guarded as humanly possible. I never said anything because I was so scared that something was going to be misconstrued or whatever, or taken out of context. So I thought, I've got nothing to lose at this point. I wasn't really coping that well with the jobs I was doing. I could write a sort of fluffy book about happiness but actually why not write about the fact that I've just come off antidepressants or wherever I was at at that point but I've got nothing to lose and I assumed it would go a bit under the radar and luckily that book really connected with people and it was received well in terms of people saying I felt like that too and that was you know unexpected I didn't think that would happen Did you literally get stopped in the street?

30:44Oh yeah, it was quite instant after that book that the conversation changed from I loved your top on that show to shit, I've been there. you know and that was extraordinary I'd never had that conversation before with strangers ever so I definitely felt a teeny tiny glimmer of something new like oh maybe I can just be me it wasn't a glimmer of and there's going to be this whole other happy place universe god no I just thought oh that feels kind of different um the whole thing was a big happy accident I didn't feel like I was doing anything out of the ordinary or brave or different I just then you know then the podcast came about so I thought right I don't really want to do radio anymore and there's no telework no one's ringing me I'm not getting offered anything at all I'm just sat there feeling really insecure you're not flavor of the month anymore what did that feel like awful awful because I'm the sort of person that again used it I turned it on myself like you know I would call people I work with and say am I really bad at this or really weird and no one's telling me because I just want you to tell me just tell me so I know and then I'll call it quits I will happily walk away from it and I'll do something else why aren't I being asked to do anymore what is it I still don't know but I'm I don't care as much anymore and there's not that many shows I'd really want to do but back then I desperately wanted them I still don't know I don't know if I was a bit or am a bit too out of the box for it or a bit too boring or not good enough it could be any of those things I don't know but what I have done is taken the bits of my skill set that I know I'm confident in, and that is interviewing.

32:50And that's where the podcast came from. I'm just going to sit and talk to people. Those conversations were received well early on. And I think that's what I really started to think. Maybe I don't have to sit around waiting for the phone to call anymore. Maybe I don't have to go in to these big TV networks and have these ghastly meetings where someone says to me, oh, what have you been up to recently? quite dismissively and then says to me like what your what your interests and i'd be like oh my god i've been doing tv at this that point for like over 20 years they don't know what i've been doing and they don't even know what i like what and then i'd go into desperation mode oh i've been really busy and um oh i really like painting could that be a thing like desperate yeah desperate in these meetings for anyone to believe in me in any way and they come away feeling gross like violated why did I go in and do that why did I go away why did I go into that meeting and act so desperately in front of this boss I've never met before or this tv exec whoever it is um and they still don't want me to do a tv show why am I doing that so I think after the podcast I thought I'm not doing that anymore I am not putting myself through that I'm gonna literally spend every waking second working out how to expand the joy that I'm feeling from doing this podcast and we're doing it and we're fucking doing it and I am so glad and it hasn't been without extreme hard work and grit and the slow slow building of an amazing team of people that I would not be able to do any of this without.

34:37They are, I cannot explain how much I love the people I work with. They are the fucking best. They're the best. And I couldn't do it without them. So I feel like that's taken me years to get there, years to get there. And it's taken not just the six and a half years since the podcast, it's the 20 odd years before that of getting it so wrong and meeting good people and getting it right. but it's all of it that has enabled me to do this bit now. Let's talk about the sponsors of this podcast. Zoe Membership, a personalised nutrition programme. I always get asked why I look after my body and the answer, I want to look good naked.

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37:28The most transformative chapter of your life is waiting for you. Are you grateful for the tough times? I mean, yes, in a way. But I often feel frustrated when I hear people go, I've got no regrets. And I wouldn't be who I am today without the shit bit. because there's a bit of me that would love to have not to have gone through some of the stuff I would love to be without it um I guess that in a way that the the consequences of what you've gone through some of it you are a long way down the road but some of it you're still dealing with oh yeah yeah yeah and there might come a point maybe when you're my age and you go wow I've really I'm so far away yeah from that I think so you know what I mean I hope this journey it feels so fruitful to me for you this journey watching you go on it and and and kind of getting to know you a bit at a really difficult time um around a quite a difficult time in your life and watching you do this pivot and how, I mean, your interviewing technique is so good.

38:52Coming from you, I could literally die happy now. I mean, listening to you now is a joy. I'm like, oh, wow, like this is so good because I see it from your side really more than I'm not just listening to the person you're interviewing. I'm listening to your questions, but I'm in awe of you. Well, it goes two ways. I feel like I'm... Sorry. I cry a lot. But I feel... I feel... Sorry.

39:32I feel like I'm really proud of you. Sorry.

39:43I've seen you, you know, I've heard you, I've spoken to you sometimes, but I didn't really know, you know, how. When you said about your friends saying you said the same thing, I thought, wow, that's dark, you know. We're kind of like the best friends that never happened. We're both busy, we're slightly different generations. I had kids at a different time. We live in different places, but I have a love for you that I can't even begin. to express and to see how you handle your life and what you go through because it's not about what you own or the job that you do or anything like that. It's about the feelings that you've endured, the problems that you've had, the way that you've dealt with it and continue to deal with it.

40:30Yeah. So, of course, it's not going to be as easy or as simple as I'm grateful for what happened to me. But, you know, I was an addict. I am grateful for that. Yeah. But that was 35 years ago. Yep. I can say that now. I couldn't say that 20 years ago. That's what I love about life. Like, you know, you say you feel good. I do. Better. I do feel good. Than you did. I feel good most of the time. Yeah. And I really like knowing myself. I think I didn't know myself back then at all. I didn't know, and I still don't truly know. Still learning. I'm still learning. Like I didn't know my capabilities. I didn't know that it was all right to fuck up.

41:19I didn't know that. I thought you had to be perfect all the time. How hard is it for you to fuck up? It's really hard. Really hard. Yeah. Really, really hard. And not only is it hard for me to fuck up, but it's hard for me to accept when things haven't gone the way that I wanted. more specifically in work I'm probably more forgiving in my life I think I've got a good understanding being in a blended family that things are really complicated and they're great and they're beautiful and they're gorgeous and overwhelmingly beautiful but also really complicated so I've got I've got much more leeway when things go wrong in my personal life but in my work life when things don't go the way I want them to I believe it's because there's something wrong with me or I'm not good enough I've not worked hard enough or I've been deluded that's one of my big fears I've been foolish to believe something could be a success and it hasn't ended up being that way so I still give myself a hard time and I still don't like things going wrong But what I think I've learned, especially from that tricky era, was for whatever reason, and I don't know what it is, I don't give up.