How Childhood Shapes Your Boundaries and How to Change!

23:40Very often it's like, why did that person not smile at me? what how do you think that person is even thinking of you take yourself out of it maybe they have an arrogance yeah it's like maybe they have a stomach ache yeah maybe they're relying on that person yeah stop relying on that person and make you feel good they didn't say hi and i said hi it's like maybe they didn't hear you maybe they were preoccupied with thoughts in their head But don't assume that every single thing is about you. Sometimes people are in a bad mood. I'm married. I'm in a bad mood sometimes. It has nothing to do with other people.

24:20It's just like, I didn't get enough sleep. Unless you were jumping on the bed all night, it's not your fault. It's me. I was up. I was scrolling. It's my fault. But it puts me in a mood, right? So it's not about the other person. And so this assumption that what people do is always about me. Yeah, like you said, there is some level of arrogance or some assumption that you are the center of this person's thoughts and perhaps allowing them to explain even what does this mean? If we need space, what does that look like? What are you what are you thinking for us? What do you need me to support you through?

25:06I mean, if you really want to keep a person who's saying that to you, explore it. Don't assume that this is the end. And space could mean I don't want to talk to you for the rest of today. It doesn't mean ever again in life. So you've given them an explanation to what they're trying to say. It's not you don't even know yet. So if you jump in and you're like, OK, fine, never caught. Now you've broken up with them. You've broken up with them and they haven't even said anything. So allow the situation to unfold by asking more questions instead of assuming that you know where they're going with this.

25:45Davina McCall:Sexual boundaries, I always think, are quite an interesting thing because everybody has their different tastes and different ways that they like to approach a sexual relationship. but you don't obviously you don't really want to be in bed when you find out that somebody's into something you're not and you go oh sorry you don't want to be setting a boundary when you've gone that far well how do you navigate that nowadays like is it something that you do is that foreplay in the kitchen uh while you're still clothed I just want to let you know I'm Putting it out there that this is my preference. If you've got something that isn't kind of a normal.

26:29Davina McCall:I mean, what's normal, but what I'm saying is. It could be that we put it out there so we see if this is a situation that can even go to the next level. Because if we're not interested, do we want to continue to pursue a connection with a person who isn't into the same thing as us? So it is a conversation that needs to be had before you're in a sexual space. And it's a conversation that's really important. But permission and consent is also important and not, you know, having some some scenario where it's like, oh, my gosh, I don't feel like I can say no now. So, yeah, I would say the sooner the better.

27:12And, you know, I don't know. I feel like we're concerned about, oh, my gosh, what will this person think instead of how do I need to feel? What is important to me in this experience? And so that advocating for yourself early is really important when it comes to sex.

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29:03Davina McCall:It's available in over 200 destinations and it comes with built-in cybersecurity. But the best part is that it lets you change your online location to home while you're away. If you've been watching a show, for example, then you go on holiday and suddenly you can't access it anymore. Well, with Salee, you can. Give it a try. Download Salee in the App Store or by scanning the QR code that's on your screen right now. And for a cheeky 15 % off your first purchase you can use the code Davina at checkout that's Davina for 15 % off I think it's quite interesting the difference between men and women sometimes in talking that I think women naturally we spend I mean I'm generalizing here so I know that not all women are like this but so many women go through life just talking about very personal things even I I mean, if I go to a ladies' loo in a bar somewhere, often you'll end up talking about their husband, somebody you've literally met at a sink, like at a basin.

30:08Davina McCall:You end up having very personal and easily. It's comfortable for us. But for men, it's much harder to. How can somebody learn how to feel safe telling someone how they feel? It's, again, it's putting down a boundary. if it's not in your nature to do that? Are there any tools that people can use? Well, you know, you can practice being honest in maybe one of the most simple ways when people say something like, how are you doing? Be honest about it. Because people do ask that. And very often we give a fluffy answer of, oh, I'm good, everything is fine. One, it's been a tough morning. Yesterday was really weird and I'm trying to gather myself.

31:03So start there. Give people an honest answer when they ask. The other part is you can't be vulnerable with everyone on the same level. So figuring out who in your orbit are the people that you need to open up to a little bit more. It's typically the people who are showing up. They are asking. They are consistent. And maybe you're not giving them enough. If you're not going into detail with anyone about things in your life, that's probably a problem. If if people would be shocked to know that you're struggling with something. Yes. But you talk to people, you're not going deep enough with them. So, you know, sometimes when I'm working with clients and they're like, nobody knows, you know, that I am struggling with depression in this way.

31:58And it's like, can we start to tell someone at least one person? Yes. You know, can we tell one person that you're depressed and when you get off work, you go home and you sit in the dark? One person in your life could know that you don't have to tell your your friend group. You don't have to, you know, send send text to 20 people. But can we have someone who knows so everyone is in shock?

32:22Davina McCall:Yes. And then once you see that person is safe, can we spread the news to one more person? Because very often people can't help us when they don't know what we're going through. Yes. And so they need to be filled in and just told like, you know, hey, this is the thing I'm going through. Maybe you don't know what level of support you need, but at least they know. And some people will just step up in that knowing and say, hey, here's how I'm going to jump in and support you. I think also if somebody's going through something alone, they can look a bit distanced, you know, a bit frightening. They don't feel personable, so they look a bit prickly and scary, but actually what they're doing is struggling alone.

33:07Davina McCall:So actually when somebody does disclose something, like you were saying, it makes you feel closer to them and understand why they might be appearing a bit distant. Yeah. And one of the things I talk about in the balancing act is when we encounter. Let's just get this out here. Let's quickly hold it up to what this book. Yes. Nadra, are you talking about this one? And the balancing act, creating healthy dependency and connection without losing yourself. You had me at that line. Yeah. This is so brilliant. Without losing yourself is the key. So, yes, you were just saying about when we have relationships with people who are distant, we have to continue to show our love despite that.

33:59Yes, because it's is really a barrier they're putting up to protect themselves. Yes. And again, we have to depersonalize. It's not us. People have you know, we started off talking about childhood. People have a story long before we meet them. And even if we grow up with them, we can't determine how what they've been through impacts who they are. And so when we're in relationships with people, we think we act as if we are the first person they ever met. So everything that they think is about me and it's really not. It's about their uncle. It's about their grandmother. It's about dad. It's about mom.

34:45It's about their fifth grade teacher. It's about all this other stuff mixed together. And then here's your person. Here's your friend. Here's your here's your coworker. And they're showing up in the world with their stuff. And sometimes it is. I don't know how to let people in. continue to invite them continue to reach out to them via text notice it we don't do enough noticing aloud of what we're experiencing with people yes i notice when i text you it takes two weeks for you to respond is everything okay yes i mean my goodness when

35:25Davina McCall:somebody does do that I think it just means so much can I ask you about um the different types of attachment um because I know that well in here we're talking about codependency um in fact let's talk about codependency independency and what these things are there are different levels aren't there of these things I'm reading have you ever heard of peer melody yes she's codependent no more yes I'm just in the middle of reading up the second time so please can you tell me the difference between codependency and dependency and are there more kind of attachment styles to learn about well I think about dependency as something that's on a spectrum.

36:20So on one end of it, you have codependency where we're totally enmeshed and overtaken by our relationships. And on the opposite end, you have counter dependency where people have trouble with needing others or even showing them that they may care about the relationships because they're so hyper independent. And in the middle there is kind of where we have healthy dependency because dependency is healthy. We should be able to rely on others. We should be vulnerable. We should be able to have tough conversations and be able to exhibit some boundaries. But the unhealthy way is to be, you know, maybe codependent where you have no boundaries.

37:07Davina McCall:So what does codependent look like? So it's not it's not somebody who's independent. It's somebody who kind of needs somebody else to function. It's the needing of someone else to function or feeling like you have to be needed to be in that relationship with a person. Codependent No More, which is such an amazing book, was is really centered around addiction. Right. Yeah. And it's. Yeah. Yeah. And then I've just come back to it now. It's so good. Yeah, it's really centered around addiction, because what happens sometimes with people who have addictions is they have these other folks around them, like upholding the addiction by engaging in their behavior in an unhealthy way, by not setting boundaries, by allowing them to have too much say in a situation where it's like this is an absolute no.

38:02And so the person with the addiction, you know, they may be wreaking havoc on a loved one's life. And it's like, oh, my God. And on their own. On their own. Right. And so this this other person is like, I have to save them. I have to rescue them. There's something I can do to to make them change their life. I will do everything I can.

38:23Davina McCall:And about how other people in your childhood, you know, can end up having such an effect on you as an adult, but that you have the power to change. This is the amazing thing, I think. And this, I think this is what I loved about that line, connecting, connection without losing yourself, that you have the power to get yourself into a place where you can still be you. and have healthy boundaries in place. Somehow some people grow up like thinking that in order to do all of these things, I'm somehow going to sacrifice myself, but you don't have to do that. Yeah, I think there is this idea, especially, you know, with something like codependency.

39:10If I don't do this from this person, I can't receive their love because there is this withdrawal that they may have of, OK, I'm not going to talk to you anymore. Or if you can't if you can't do this thing for me, especially, you know, when it's an unhealthy dynamic. And that can be such a threat to you that you're willing to not have any of yourself in the relationship. You make the relationship totally about the other person. I think codependency is especially damaging when the majority of your relationships are codependent. You know, it's one thing to have a codependent relationship. And it's a whole other thing when it's like you have 10.

39:52Yeah. At work. At work. You're doing the co-workers work. You're the friend who's over helping in that dynamic. Now you're the partner who's burnt out because you're doing everything at home. Then you have the parent who that's that's when it becomes particularly burdensome because you have no space where you can show up. And receive support because everybody is set up for you to support them and you're not receiving enough. And so that's where we start to see more loneliness. We start to see more depression. People have challenges with speaking up because the people that they have there, there's this fear they'll leave because if I start setting boundaries now, these people are going to leave me.

40:40And it's like these people, these these people who are taking everything from you, you actually have a lot of leverage. Yes. You have a lot of leverage because you've made yourself needed. So how do you start to execute some of your power? And it's by, you know, showing up differently in those relationships, risking whether or not this relationship can be different. And I think that is, you know, one of our challenges that if I say something, if I do this, this person might leave or they might adjust. We don't give people the opportunity to adjust because we're so afraid they'll leave.

41:24Davina McCall:What do you think people can do to like the top tips to try? And if you're going to start in a relationship and again, you can't change somebody else. So what things would you say to yourself, this is how to prep yourself to have a healthy relationship with another? I'm talking as in a sexual relationship with somebody. How can you say to yourself, OK, I've been in a codependent relationship before or I've had unhealthy relationships in the past. I'm changing because I think people sometimes think I'm stuck in this attachment style or I'm this kind of person. and I can't be in a healthy relationship or, oh, you're like this.

42:07Davina McCall:I'm going to be a disaster with you. But how can we actually bring our best version of ourselves to a new relationship and start again? Begin again.

42:20As long as we have breath in our lungs, we have the ability to change. And very often we give up at 20. We give up at 30. We give up at 45. We give up at 60. This is the way I am. I cannot learn anything new. I am avoided. I am codependent. I am depressed. I am whatever, fill in the blank. I am a person who spends money this way. I am a, you know, whatever it is, we get really fixated on. It's a belief system, isn't it? Yeah. And it becomes your behavior system.

42:51Davina McCall:Yeah. Because your beliefs and your behaviors align. In actuality, you have the capacity to change. Is it comfortable? Absolutely not. but it absolutely not I won't guarantee that you know a lot of times I mean change I always imagine myself I'm up against a wall like that and I'm getting like this no no yes yes and then I do it and I go that wasn't so bad it's great oh gosh when I'm when I'm teaching you know some of these therapy techniques techniques to clients I say it's gonna feel really corny it's gonna feel really cheesy and terrible at first. But the more you practice it, it'll become a natural rhythm.

43:32So you have to get into the mode of practicing a new thing. So if you're getting into a new relationship, what's really important is to center who you are. Yes. To know who you are. If you don't eat a certain thing don't let this person convince you it's not you know if you have a habit of oh I'm going to take on the personality of my partner you know that's an issue so when you go into this new relationship what is my personality am I pulling from them or am I being myself how would

44:08Davina McCall:you know do you kind of where would you like would you sit somewhere would you it sounds like this is a big discussion with yourself to learn who you are. What do you want? Yes, it is. What does that look like? It's a big self-talk. Yeah. You know, when we break up with folks, what we typically focus on is what they did wrong and not enough on what we did in the situation as well. So look at yourself. Look at yourself. Even if they did some big thing, how did you allow it? How did you get there? What sort of person did you have to become to tolerate it? That's what you're undoing in a new relationship.

44:49Yes. You are not repeating a cycle. So if you start to notice, oh, I'm getting back into agreeing with everything someone is saying. I can't do that. Even when I don't. I'm taking on their perspective of a scenario that I had a pretty strong belief about. They're not convincing, but I'm just doing it so they'll like me. So it is this conversation you have to have with yourself and a level of awareness. There's an opportunity for you to talk to some people and say, who was I in that relationship? Yes, that's a good idea. Who was I in that relationship with that person? What did you see? Sometimes people will tell you, you didn't talk very much when you were with him.

45:32You got very quiet. You're usually a bubbly person, but when you all were together. You got a little weird. That's something to notice like, okay. So when I'm with a person and I'm not talking, what was I experiencing in that moment? I felt like if I didn't let him be really big, he'd be upset at me. So those are the things that you're correcting. You have to notice who you were, not who the other person was. Oh, they did these things. It's like, what did I do? What didn't I do? These are the things that I'm mastering. Very often, we feel like I can only master these things in isolation. I'm not getting into any more relationships because I need to correct all of these things about myself.

46:17Well, correction also requires practice. So you have to be in a relationship to be able to practice the things you've been working on. It's very easy to practice something when there's no audience, right? It's like, OK, sing. Oh, yeah, we love to sing in the mirror. Now go audition. Oh, wait. So the relationship is the audition of who you are. Yes. Oh, I love that. Yeah. It's the audition of all the stuff you've been practicing. All the books you've been reading, go audition. All the things you've been taking in. Oh, I should, you know, when I read parenting books, I'm like, huh, I got to practice this today.

46:57It's like, I have to audition this today. You know, I can't just take that information and leave it there now that I've acquired of something new that's actually good. I highlighted that.

47:08Davina McCall:I have to audition it today. I mean, with parenting, obviously, this is the beginnings of someone's life. And we've been talking quite a lot about the triggers that your child can leave you with and how they can manifest in everything, relationships, work, and we don't know what other people's triggers are. And there we are with a blank canvas of a child. How do we turn up for that child in the best possible way to not burden the same kind of triggers that we had? Well, we first have to assume that they don't have the same triggers that we had. They're being raised in a different environment. They're not us.

47:54They're not us. This is, can I tell you something?

47:57Davina McCall:Go ahead. Okay, let me get myself comfortable. when my eldest daughter was about nine I was really struggling with how to be with her but I saw her as me she was little me so she was she looked like me she has the same sort of attitude about her body as me she had the same mannerisms she had the she was like exactly the same but I would when I would see her do a dance and then a look on her face I'd go oh my god oh and then a weird thing would happen and I would go to her and go you okay and she'd be like yeah like and I'd be like oh that that didn't go out as I thought me didn't do that yeah it was it was it was just interesting I was just we were misfiring and I went to see a child psychologist Just not with her because I knew I was the problem.

48:57Davina McCall:I was like, I've got this thing with my eldest daughter. I don't know how to be with her. It's so weird. And she told me, she asked me about my childhood and then she asked me about her childhood. And she went, Davina, she's not you. And I went, well, no, I know she's not me. What do you mean? She went, no, she's not you at all. She's got a roof over her head. her parents are together they get on she's secure you're not drinking she she's got a mum that shows up I was like she's not me yeah and it was really interesting because all I'd done was changed the way I perceived her in my head that she's not little me she's an independent person she's our own person And from just the micro changes that I made in the way that I related to her made such an enormous difference.

49:59Davina McCall:We just got on brilliantly. Yeah. From that moment. I thought, my God, I've been putting something on her. How often do you think people do that? A lot. Do you think? Oh, yes. Yes. When we use phrases like I wouldn't have done that at that age. Yeah. Or I used to or when I was a kid, like those sorts of things you're in. And I'd be like, oh, I understand you. But I didn't understand her at all. Yeah, you couldn't because you grew up in a completely different sort of environment. When I think about how my kids are growing up versus how I grew up. Yeah, it is very different. So I am working to understand their context because I don't have it.

50:44Yes, I don't have your context. So some of these things that you're asking or, you know, when I look at my kids, I was like, gosh, I was way more independent than you. But I had to be. Yes, I had to be. In a way you don't want them to be. I don't want them to be. So actually, OK, come back. Ask me more. You know, it's like I want you to be able to ask. That's something that I didn't get. And so, yeah, they're they have a completely different, you know, story from us. And so as parents, I think we do our kids a disservice by assuming that they think and feel as we would. Yeah, it's it's not true.

51:24Davina McCall:And you just talked about asking for help. I think that's another really interesting thing that you've covered quite a bit and is a very was a very, very difficult thing for me to do. Why is asking for help so hard? Well, it's really hard when there wasn't a trusted person who could actually deliver, you know, which is the situation if you grow up with a parent who's an addict, right? Like they struggle to be able to be consistent and dependable. And so you may learn like, oh, gosh, I need to figure out a way to rely on myself, right? Did you have that? Oh, yes. Yes. I mean, in a way, I found it quite helpful in some ways.

52:10It is an awkward superpower. Yes. That's exactly how I see it. It's like an awkward super like, no, no, I can figure it out. Like I've been figuring it out, but it is burdensome. Yes, you are. Like to be the person who has to figure it out. Like even if I can, I don't always want to. Yes. It's like, can somebody else do it? Like I'm tired of it. I've been doing it since I was zero. Right. Right. So, yeah, I think it's really hard to ask for help when people don't do the job well or they mess it up so they don't have to help you. Do you think they because I think sometimes people do that on purpose?

52:51Davina McCall:Yeah. Yeah. They mess it up because they don't want to have to help you. Like, oh, I did it. Here's your water. It's like, oh, gosh, and a broken glass. It's like, well, just say you didn't want to bring me a cup. Right. Or, you know, I think there are these instances where we struggle to ask for help because we fear people will perceive us as incompetent or not smart, weak. We should be able to do things on our own. But there's a lot of value in having support from people. Yes. Because it does take away the loneliness of having to figure it out, having to be your sole provider. I also want to say I've been thinking while we've been having this conversation, how different the world would be if we could all speak to each other better.

53:46Davina McCall:Is that really in how you show up to everything? You can change. Can we as individuals change the world by all showing up as better people in every situation that it might inspire other people to show up in the same way? Do we owe it to the world to show up better? I don't know if we owe it to the world, but I think it would bring great value to the world to show up better just in the smallest way. Sometimes it's, you know, being kind to people, kind gestures. Oh, my gosh. I think kind gestures. What do you mean by that? What sort of thing? I'm thinking of a neighbor that I have right now. And when I get back to my room, I'm going to do this.

54:31They have a sign outside their home that says, it's a boy. I don't even speak to them usually because I don't live that close to them. But I do want to send them a gift just as a kind gesture, because I think you put that sign out there as like a calling, right? Like to bring people, like, yeah, community. So I just, I want to, I want to send you a gift. When you see like, someone's like, oh my gosh, this person graduated, just honking your horn and being like, good job. Anytime I see teenagers out dressed up and it seems like they're going to something for them, I'm like, you look beautiful. You look so nice today.

55:10And they're like, oh, really? It's like, yes, you look lovely. That kind gesture of I just want to say something that improves your mood. I just want to say hello to someone. I want to pay for someone's coffee. I want to whatever, whatever those things are. You know, a few weeks ago, I walked my daughter to the bus stop and our neighbor didn't have an umbrella. I went back home and got the kid an umbrella. I'm like, here. He's like, I'll bring it back. I'm like, you can have it. It's an umbrella. We have tons. We have tons because my kids always lose them. So I just buy them. But, yeah, it's like, how do we just impart a little bit of something?

55:57Sometimes it's a hug. You know, when I walked in, you're like, you know, just the welcome of of people into an environment. When you walk into a space, sometimes like the bright color, the music, like whatever kindness looks like in your environment, in your life, what you can do. It doesn't have to be monetary. It can be physical, such as a hug. It can also be, you know, you just creating a space for people to feel safe.

56:25Davina McCall:I just wanted to talk to you about childhood. And, you know, we talked a little bit about parenting and letting kids be kids and helping guide them. And, you know, we can't promise them no trauma because that's not life, but to try and help them have the tools to deal with life. But I think when I listen to you and I think about me, I didn't really have a childhood like other people's childhood. sort of half the time I was being treated as an adult when I was like eight, you know, it's kind of mad. How important do you think it is? I mean, for me, it's been immensely healing. If you've not really had that, if you've had one of those lives where you couldn't ask for help, super independent, old before your time to find the child in you.

57:16It's a lot of practicing new things, things that adults might feel are childish, Because I think there are so many adults who are still struggling who didn't have it. And they're still struggling to to feel what that magic is like. I don't want to jump on a bed. I don't want to do cartwheels and flip over, you know, a couch or something. But when I see that the Disney castle, when I walk in Disney, it is like I have a moment of pause. The music. Yes. And it's like, yeah. You know, you whatever that is. So there are there are things even in adulthood that just transforms all of us to this place that we weren't able to tap into or that we don't tap into now.

58:08It could be amusement parks. It could be coloring. It could be playing with dolls. It could be, you know, playing football with your friends, whatever that is. It's very important for us to recapture that and to allow ourselves to have it sometimes because adults need play to play is not just for kids. We need it as well to feel alive, to thrive.

58:34Davina McCall:Do you know what I've also started doing again because my kids have left home? What are you doing? Nightclubbing. Playing for grown-ups. Okay. Dancing. Okay. So good. My kids have not left home, so hearing about a nightclub makes me want to go to sleep. Well, one day, one day, you and me. We'll have more energy. Don't worry. I'm coming to get you. Okay, yeah, my form of play now is going to bed early because I'm chronically tired. So, yes, in 10 years, maybe maybe it'll be that. But, you know, for me now, I really like to I like to play with playing cards. I like to play like solitaire. Like that is so relaxing to me.

59:21I remember as a kid, like playing a lot of card games. So I've been doing that more. And that feels like, oh, it's like mindless. It's like in the moment. You have to think it's like, oh, yeah. Uno. I remember that. So, yeah, I think whatever it is, like discovering what that thing is and doing it. Dancing at a nightclub. Like as adults, I think sometimes we're so judgy about what we look like with other people. So just going and being like free, free. This is fun. The other day I learned a few TikTok dances with my kids. I don't think I mastered them. Can I just say something?

59:59Davina McCall:They learn those dances so quick. It takes me like four hours to learn a three second TikTok thing. This dance, it took like 20 seconds. I'm like, wait, so you just stop it at that part in the song? I'm like, is there another part to the dance? I'm used to like these full length dance routines. We sound so old. Right. I'm like, oh, it's only a 20 second dance? Oh, I could do that for 20 seconds. Why do you want to dance for 20 seconds? Nedra I want to talk to you finally also about your dream really because you've you've written set boundaries find peace now the balancing act and you clearly want to spread healthy psychological kind of tools you want to create tools for people to go forward and live the life they deserve.

1:00:52Davina McCall:But what's next? I would say a deepening of what the work has already been. Boundary violations are unfortunate, and I don't think we're going to get rid of it in culture. Yes. But we have to figure out a way, even when that has happened in childhood, how to not allow those early experiences to impact who we are currently. I mean, when you go to therapy, of course, therapists are going to talk about childhood, right? Like we love to do it because it is important. It's important. However, but presently, how are these things impacting you and what can you do? We can talk about all those scenarios of when you were five, when you were seven.

1:01:37But what is happening right now? Yes. What are you doing in these relationships to undo all of that stuff or to reimagine a future that you didn't think was possible?

1:01:49Davina McCall:Yes. And it is possible to change. I think you think because this has happened to me then and I react like that because of that. But you have the power within yourself to change how you react to situations or to change your narrative. You can't change your narrative because it happened. But to change the way you deal with it as you get older. I definitely feel like I've changed from the little girl who had a fear of abandonment and acted accordingly. I feel like I've learned so much. That's why I think getting older, we mustn't run away from that because I really enjoy it. Yeah. I feel so much better now.

1:02:36Yeah. For some of us, you know, our wisdom grows as we get older. And for some of us, we just get older.

1:02:43Davina McCall:But for some of us, we go out clubbing. And I also want to tell you that when you are ready. In 10 years. I'm taking you out. I'll nearly be 70. Yes. Getting older and wiser. And I'll still be clubbing. And clubbing. Just letting you know. And I'll still be wearing socks with shoes. Yes. Yes.

1:03:36so

1:03:36Davina McCall:so just in case you missed this episode here um if you love this episode i know you're going to love that.