How I Healed My Nervous System (and changed my life)

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1:00At the moment is a terrible time for fear. This is a time when people can get very dark. What tips can you give to people who are thinking, I feel a bit lost? If it's hysterical, it's historical. I've experienced anxiety and I was so used to being made to feel small. But it made me look at it, like, why am I like that? But I realised. And literally my whole body went into an orgasm just from letting go. It's completely changed my relationship with my kids and with my husband. And for me, I started my first loving relationship, you know, at 48. How do people get there? The nervous system, it's basically scanning the world, asking, am I safe or am I in danger?

1:50What are the traits of someone with an unhealthy nervous system? Wow. And then you have come together to author this book called Glimmers. Exactly. A glimmer is the opposite of a trigger. It's about building capacity so you can be stressed and come back to ease. We're going to talk you through a glimmer check-in. It helps relationships, work colleagues, as a parent. Not everyone can go to a therapist. Instead, you can... I've got Nadia and Katya here and you two have spent your lives basically trying to help heal us all and through self love and self care in freedom and in lockdown. um also um trying to kind of help us with our nervous systems which we now know are so imperative not just to our well-being but also our health um and our relationships I mean everything yeah um but you have come together to author this absolutely glorious book called Glimmers I mean you had me at Glimmers like I just love that word and the kind of picture that it paints but these are tiny moments to transform your life and thank you so much for both coming here today thank you for having us um so I want to kick off with asking you both what is our nervous system I think actually it's something that we don't a lot of us don't really understand when somebody says regulate your nervous system yeah well but what is it so it's our internal surveillance system and it's just I mean this is like a really simple version of it it's very scientific and we're not scientists so we're going to give you the really simple good I'm not either yeah so it's your internal surveillance system and it's basically scanning the world asking am I safe or am I in danger and it creates these protecting defense mechanisms that keep us safe throughout our childhood and even before we're born so our nervous system's being built in our mothers and it's being transferred through their mother to our mother to us and so if your mother has had a really hard time during birth you're going to pick up some of that in your nervous system our mum lost a baby when her baby was 11 months old and Nadia was conceived conceived like a month later or the month the month that she found out the month that our sister died she had conceived me And so only through teaching pregnancy yoga and helping women with their babies did I understand that all that grief was in utero.

4:52So I was kind of growing in this womb of grief. And then I came into the world and just from the experience of other women, I started to see how they behaved with their babies. And imagine if you'd lost one right before. You're just in fear all the time. You don't know whether to pick it up, put it down. And sometimes as an adult, you kind of don't understand like, where is this grief coming from? Because it's not mine. Yes. You know, and it's someone else's. And when you start to explore your nervous system and it's a real deep dive into who you are and where all of these patterns come from. And the glimmer is this pause and this little moment of safety where you can pause and make a different decision.

5:41so when you're talking about the nervous system if you are in and I know the expression is fight or flight um and I think that's such a good explanation for it because you can almost feel yeah when it feels yeah it feels tangible you're ready I think what's interesting as well as that as an adult going into work you know when I started working in a restaurant fight or flight was great it was like go go go like arrive get on it like so I felt like totally on the kind of um on top of everything um but there was also a sense of burnout yeah it's when you get stuck in it so fight and you know that's the sympathetic nervous system so you've got these branches of the nervous system you have the sympathetic and the parasympathetic and again really basic the sympathetic is your fight flight and the parasympathetic is your rest and digest so when you're in your sympathetic and your fight and flight if you can't come down like the problem is getting stuck so when we get stuck in it and with the way that society is resting isn't considered valued it's like you don't you're lazy you're this you're that if you rest and we don't do it we feel guilty to rest yeah and so we're on this like low level threat all the time in our nervous systems and that also comes from it's like what we were talking about in the car today like needing to pee and you don't you don't go you hold it oh I see you hold yeah you hold it in and that's sending your system like oh why why are you going or you're hungry but you decide that, oh, I'll eat later.

7:32Again, you're not listening to your system. So it keeps you in this low-level threat. And then over time, it builds, it builds, it builds, and we get stuck. So what are the kind of personality traits that someone would, say, start adopting if they were living with or have an unhealthy nervous system, if they were in the sympathetic? well you have you know I mean just in my relationship which is really lovely I think I probably wanted to get on a plane literally flight and fly away a thousand times every time I got scared I'd be like I'm leaving I'm going back to London and is that what they call an avoidant uh it's not so much that it's an avoidant it was just that I was so afraid of my life changed completely to be in this love story and I had to let go of all the things that I had very well placed to keep me safe had really good career I was making my own money I owned my own flat I was in control everything had its place I knew how to keep myself safe then you throw in like a person that lives in another part of the world and I had to let go of some of those things and I'd be like you've made me give up everything and he'd be like but what about everything you've gained you know so I was just in this constant flight state of wanting to leave and it took his nervous system calm steady to be like okay you can go home anytime you want but I love you I'm here you know to show me that there's another way then there's numbing which we were talking about in the car on the way here so I think a lot of us live in this state of functional freeze so real freeze so it's when like your sympathetic nervous system fight flight didn't work like right this isn't working for me I couldn't fight and I couldn't run freeze and sorry when something terrible happens to a woman freeze yeah and she often blames herself that I couldn't fight but actually it's her body protecting her and I think that shift as well in trauma work when when women hear that like oh actually my system didn't fail me it totally protected me is really healing when I was um reading and listening and you know doing doing my research um and looking at your Instagram account which is amazing everybody should go and follow it um it is that the wording that you use um made made me very emotional a lot and you use the word safety and I mean safety is at the core of everything you do right it's how we I mean we were saying this about you just how safe you you it's like you emanate it to the people that are on your show you want us to feel safe yeah you do and that's co-regulation like working can you explain when I read about this co-regulation it absolutely blew my mind I saw it on your page yeah I saw you liked that honestly it really really because I had always kind of thought I'd been taught slightly that they could you know I'd learned it as codependency is unhealthy like to to and I I still sort of agree with that to depend on somebody and be needy but this co-regulation it was something I'd never heard of before could you just explain what it is can I just say first of all is that we do need each other and being needy is different to needing and we all need each other and as women we're kind of taught don't need someone you can do this on your own and you become hyper independent it's not so good either and and somebody said to me um you were only being needy because your needs weren't being met yeah and uh that i thought was quite an interesting way and i think also in a healthy relationship sometimes we do need more than the other person does and sometimes they need more than we do and we've got a really funny story we went on a magic mushroom retreat I wanted to try and break this habit of being the big sister that always feels like I've got to take care of my sister not that she makes me it's just my yeah desire to take care of her and so we go on this retreat and and I said Katia you know you're gonna have to do this on your own and she's like well you're not gonna sit behind me like you did in labor and breathe and I'm like no I'm paying for the retreat as well I want to do my bit and you do your bit and we'll talk to them and they'll take care of you if they need you if you need them and so we get there did i need them and we had that you ever done psilocybin or any kind of i had i hadn't no well i'd played in my youth but oh in my youth lot yeah yeah we played in our youth but we actually haven't drunk or taken drugs since we were 23 and i'd read a book and i was like something in me needs to kind of rewire so anyway read the book came back researched went on a retreat and really felt like that was kind of amazing and also in a very spiritual way so it didn't feel like I was getting high or anything it's very different to when you're doing it and you're young because it's like four days you're integrating yeah what does that mean well you're doing all what integrated yeah integrating is when you're bringing the experience into your body so you're integrating what you've had learned what you've learned from the psilocybin but you're also doing you're talking in pairs you've got questions you've got so you're understanding everything that you've learned on the psilocybin you are then unpicking with someone else exactly what did it mean to you and yeah so even before they're prepping you and they're opening you so you're doing all of these exercises together as a group that is starting to open up and make you more vulnerable and like question and answers and so we went on this retreat I did it in April and then in September I thought for my birthday every year instead of this idea of getting older and closing down yes I wanted to expand so I'm like I'm just going to do this for my birthday every year from here on out and Katia was like noticing some changes in me and she's like I might come with you and I felt wait you noticed after oh yeah my kids noticed it like that in me really yeah and it was for me I think I'd become so numb just being a mum and just the everyday mundane activities that you do as a mother and working and just I was so overwhelmed and numb and I was I remember writing in my intention I literally want to burst my heart open whether that's like feeling everything the bad the good I want to feel everything again and I felt like I'd lost that and so that was my intention on it and if you felt it did you did you we were on this retreat and we'd said to the facilitators like okay I I'm the big sister we're not playing that role here you take care of her if there's any problem they're like yeah Nadia we've got you they know me we've got her so they even set us up so we couldn't see each other right it was like over there a few days and they know me they know I've got this you know and I'm lying there and it's kind of kicking in and I just was like you know I'd really just like to put my hand up and have someone come to me and they're like rushing around and everyone's crying and they're around me you know they're having a thing they're busy they're too busy and they're like yeah got you're fine and I'm like but I couldn't really put my hand up it was just a little bit up just a little bit see me something something was like stopping you from really going I need help because I would never ask for help ever from anyone unless I was paying my therapist there's no way I would ask anybody for help and I never took help since I was 15 years old so I know how to do it well on my own and I look over at Katia and I said to one of the facilitators I was like can I just go over to Katia and she went no we've got her we've got her and I went I want to and she went all right then and I went over and I go up to Katia and I can just see her going one of the facilitators she's going what time is this we're only 15 minutes in when is this gonna end she's like you've got about eight hours to go and I get into bed with her and she's like no you don't need to look after me you said you did and I was like I think I need a bit of looking I need you to look after me and I didn't really need looking after but I was like how would that feel for me to let and let someone and she was like yes she's like come on in come on in and I just got onto this little mattress with her and she put her arms around me and I was like oh I just asked for help and this is what it feels like and we had this total like we were in this little sibling bubble which we've never really been able to be that vulnerable with each other and I was like it's okay someone needs to love you soon you asked for help you deserve love I love you And we were like having this moment.

17:43It's like the amazing eight hours. But every now and again she would get into her mind and she's like, when is this going to be over? Am I going to come back for my kids? And I'm like, you're going to be fine. But you know what's funny? From that I hear, like, you needed her to just tell you it was going to be okay and you had the language. You totally found what... Oh, because I know her. And I know where she's stuck. You know her, right? And you knew that she knows you. Yeah. and she'd know what to say yeah and then when you had your little moments you were like she's helped me so much like this isn't leaning on me this is just I'd love to help you because you've just been with me for the last hour sorting out it makes me teary just thinking about the moment because it was so and I think from that was what was that September September 20 19 no no yeah 2019 yeah It was the year before.

18:37And then September 2020 was when I started a relationship. And it's really my first loving relationship, you know, at 48. Yeah. So I definitely feel just those little moments of getting out of this hyper independence. And I've got this and I've got not just me. I've got everybody kind of thing. that vulnerability and that letting myself feel like oh if I ask for a little help do you think someone will come and help me and it really just changed everything for me and for me it was like this I have this control at home and I couldn't be in control of this trip There was no way it was going to let me control it.

19:29And so, and that's like what Nadia was saying is it was when I was trying to, that the freak out would happen. And when I just let go, I mean, I did have a whole life orgasm. She was like, shh. And I was like, oh my God. Wait, can you just explain to me what on earth is a whole life? Like I literally, my whole body went into an orgasm just from this experience of letting go of the control. And I remember coming home and they were like, my kids were just like, mum. Hang on a minute, mum. you're so much more chilled you know and they were so used to me like totally yeah and they saw me come back from other retreats where you know I might be chilled for a week and then you know back into that but I must say it it's completely changed my relationship with them with my husband and just made me a much more relaxed person.

20:42What you guys are talking about here is the kind of plague that hits midlifers of realising that, well, I'm saying midlifers because it sounds like your boyfriend is not one of these people, but I have had my hands so tightly on the steering wheel of life that like my literally my fists hurt like i am exhausted sadly it takes something big that makes you go that's not working anymore i mean we we touched on this before this chat but i did feel like getting breast cancer was like the universe punched me in the face and went you haven't learned chill the fuck out yeah or even what you're learning from the experience and being able to ask for help and having people take care of you all those things that you've probably done for everyone and you let it in we weren't very close I left home at 15 and so we weren't really super close I just tried to get away from anything that had to do with my family but when our dad was dying he's Indian and he was dying in India and we both had to go to India for six weeks that was 20 years ago this year um but it was from being there with him that brought us we've been inseparable since we just had to stick together we were on our own our dad was dying and we just became yeah so close to each other so was was there a feeling of like oh my god we've had this here all the time for each other and where have you been i've missed you no no no we were sort of the way we were brought up it was in a kind of our parents played us again played us yeah sorry i couldn't get the words played us against each other and so there was always a bit of between us there's love you know but there was this and um I think it just took a long time and us getting to know each other away from family yeah and as adults and yeah and as adults that brought us closer I think also like when you ask that question what made you close I think being together in that six weeks and maybe starting to talk about everything that had happened to us right had not really done that before you'd left no early so yeah she left early I was in the states um then when I went back to Hong Kong you were here yeah right so you just geographically you were right exactly and then um like being together in the UK and in India it's being witnessed and knowing like because sometimes we would think it's the witnessing yeah think like oh my god did that really happen am i making this up because obviously you know mom can be in a bit of denial or say oh you you know exaggerate or over sense you know whatever it is and like dad was dying but he was also a alcoholic and a drug addict and you know just like having these comments like did that actually happen yeah it I did.

24:17I remember that. And you're like, holy shit. And I was making this all up. Yeah. Hold on to that. Yeah. And it does make us definitely feel when one of us behaves in a certain way, our nervous system doing the thing that it does, which is to protect us. then having this witness who also understands the work of the nervous system which is really such a blessing is that when something happens I can phone her and she can be like okay so that's your nervous system doing that but that might be his nervous system doing this and I can say I mean even she got this beautiful necklace as a Christmas present a birthday present birthday 50th birthday from her husband and I have a similar necklace that she is like oh you're not wearing that necklace anymore do you want to give it to me I was like yeah sure I'll give it to you and then in the post arrives the necklace that she'd been saying she wanted and her husband had secretly bought it for her and it arrives and she phones me and she's like he bought me the fucking necklace and I went that's amazing and she went no we can't afford it and it's cost and that's how much it costs and that's my nervous system's reaction to like this insecurity of finance and like our dad had lost all his money when I was in college and I got this phone call like can't pay for you to go to school anymore I got the phone call can you pay for a school but anyway um so I had to just explain to her that this was an old nervous system response and that this necklace meant so much more that he had secretly gone and bought it and that when she was 70 she wasn't going to think about how much the necklace cost she's going to be looking down on it going oh yeah Casey bought that and it's so you had to do this whole practice of me like holding the necklace and going it I received this I'm so thankful I deserve it I receive it I'm like crying and crying on the phone and because I got it before he'd come home and I tore the box open so then when he came home and I could go to him and be like oh my god thank you so much rather than like why did you do that you afford it can I just say this conversation is so important the way that you are talking about things is making me realize that everybody is responding via their nervous system all the time the time in something all they need is for someone to go it's okay it's not what you think look at it like this which is what you two are basically giving everyone it's a different way of perceiving what you're thinking or going through and even like with the book yes glimmers they're these tiny moments that make us feel safe but the book is really a deep dive into who you are you know and you have to be pretty brave to yeah to go there you have to be willing to look at why and your nervous system probably put that reaction in in place so that you felt safe at the time but it's like an outdated computer system and we have to keep updating but if we're not willing to look at ourselves then it's hard to update it I mean self-awareness and always feeling like there's more to learn is so important but I think why do you think people don't look deeper or don't look at themselves what are the barriers it's not easy to be honest yeah it's not easy to like look at your shadows and you know I was a very reactive parent I was not used to mum you know being a mum having a husband like I wasn't brought up in a family with two parents you know we could make a mess we could kick a ball around the house we could make noise it was an absolute no and we didn't feel safe being you know like I couldn't say oh shut up mum or whatever like yeah have my emotions and got these two boys this husband all they do is make a mess all they do is make noise all they do is scream and shout and it's like total chaos and my nervous system is like danger danger danger and I'm screaming and shouting and he would you know like they'd be play fighting I'd be like can you stop I can't stand the noise and he's like oh my god such a fun sucking hoover but it made me look at it like why am i like that what is it with me and it was through my trauma training and my teacher said to me it's your nervous system not feeling safe in that because it doesn't know that so every time you come in the house and you feel that yes like the shoes are everywhere i'm literally about to start screaming and losing my shit you have to have that moment to go look around I'm safe no one is going to get me in trouble no one's in trouble I'm safe I'm safe the more you do that the more you start creating a different pattern and I remember mum saying at a dinner table she sat at the dinner table you know and the kids her kids are very outspoken they're heard at the dinner table everyone's debating and having conversations we were seen and not heard we were not allowed to talk I mean my dad always said I had verbal diarrhea if I talked at the dinner table but our mum was at dinner and oh I've got a friend and she's got two little boys and they're so good they don't say a word and they sit at dinner like that was a really good thing freeze you know and Katia was like yeah I I want kids like that.

30:22I want my kids to speak. And then weirdly, I ended up in a partnership with also two boys that kick the football out of the house and there's fucking mess everywhere. And I'm like phoning her having my nervous system responses. But as the, you know, step parent, new partner, you feel you have even less right to react to that. so I can phone her and she's like I'm going through the exact same thing don't worry about it and we're both like okay take a breath we're okay

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32:11this episode is brought to you by airbnb so i was at work right and i was making a coffee and this friend of mine cat she said that she just had the most amazing trip in ibiza my spiritual home and she'd gone with the girls and they'd done a gorgeous boat day where they'd ended up kind of back in ibiza old town and walking around seeing the shops the reason i'm telling you guys this is because while she was away having the best time ever in Ibiza, Kat hosted her home on Airbnb. And I thought, oh my God, that is a brilliant idea. Because if you think about it, if you're away, your home is just sitting empty.

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35:31This episode is brought to you by Athletic Brewing Company. No matter how you do game day, on the couch, in the crowd, or manning the snack table, Athletic Brewing fits right in. With a full lineup of non-alcoholic beer styles, you can enjoy bold flavors all game long. No hangovers, no buzz, no subbing out for water in the second half. Stock the fridge for tip-off with a variety of non-alcoholic craft styles available at your local grocery store or online at athleticbrewing.com. Near beer, fit for all times. So I wanted to ask you, you sort of touched on what the term glimmer means, but could you just tell me what a glimmer is?

36:10because I want to ask you after that, how do you set up your garden for a glimmer to grow? Okay. So a glimmer is the opposite of a trigger. I love that, right? You've got me right there. And we're going to talk you through. This is so good. Yeah, yeah, great. We're going to talk you through a glimmer check-in later. Okay, great. So a trigger is sending signals of danger and a glimmer is sending your body signals of safety. and so they're these tiny moments it could be a smile from someone it could be a warm mug in your hand or a hot wash bottle or your pet whatever it is that's interesting that then bring your body safety and this is the key part so it's not just like thinking about them because safety doesn't come from cognitive thinking it's a felt experience so when you think about for me a lot of the time it's my my little dog and I have him really close to me suddenly I feel my shoulders drop so the nervous system speaks to us through sensations so you need to feel it and you need to be comfortable with it so it's about feeling it and then getting comfortable with those feelings of ease in your body and then you start like once your nervous system's like oh yeah i'm really comfortable with this feeling of ease then it's going to look for more ease and it's going to look for more ease and then it's not about getting rid of the triggers because they're always kind of going to be there and something's going to stress you out it's about building capacity so you can be stressed and come back to ease be stressed ease oh so ease is your set level and the stress might come in and interview with that for a minute but rather than being in a constant state of fight or flight exactly it's the other way we want to be able to know the difference and the nervous system is kind of wired for threat and to kind of find that stuff and so by learning how to notice the glimmers and feel the glimmers and start to really expand that feeling and understand it then we start looking for that more so if you come from a lot of drama which I did in my childhood lots of shouting lots of punishing lots of just not joyful I just looked for that in relationship the more drama the more excitement the more oh he loves me because there's so much drama it took a really long time to go that doesn't really feel very good and that this that I'm in now it's not boring it's really safe it's really fun it's really loving and i deserve it and that's a really big thing for me and you know katya you know she's had kids so you hug a lot more i wasn't a very big oh you couldn't hug her if you went to hug her she'd all mad she just turned into like this stiff block until when until my relationship tell the mushroom mushroom trip first and then my relationship really joking apart like did the mushroom trip help with you well I snuggled with her for like hours and she was that something you'd never really know wow that's amazing but we were never you know I look at when her kids are ill they go to her bed you know they they come and knock on the door and they want to be with we didn't really have that experience and so it was first the mushroom trip and then in my relationship and now I'm like when I'm having a hard time I ask for a hug and it does make me feel better but that had never been the case before so I mean prepping yourself for glimmers is a very important part of being able to receive them otherwise your garden is arid and there's no way they're gonna you need to slow down like I mean that's the simple version is you have to slow down to notice them if you're busy all the time you're just rushing rushing through life and you're not taking any of it in I mean it's like I was thinking about it the other day if you you go on holiday you kind of turn your phone off you're not you put a boundary with how much you're going to respond to people in the off hours and everything slows down so you notice the sunset you notice the wind in your hair it's funny yeah everything but then we come back to life and we're like on call 24 hours a day and just like so busy that you don't notice all the things that you probably experience on holiday at home you still have beautiful sunsets and warmth on our face sometimes and even in the cold You know, it's that sometimes that cold rain on my face feels so fresh and good or just going for a really nice walk in nature.

41:32And when we're on phones and computers all the time, it's our bodies in such a posture and position of like focus, fight, flight. That kind of system is prime to attack, you know. And when we look up and we look at the horizon and we take in everything that's going on around us. I mean, the story, I think one of the early stories in the book was just sitting on the bus and I'm on my phone. There's a baby just in front of me and it happens all the time on a plane, on a train. And the baby's really trying to interact. And it brings me so much joy to interact with a baby or a dog. Anywhere. like oh hello you're so cute and walk on and the the owner's like oh my god I hope she doesn't stop and talk to me as well you know I don't want you just want the dog and um it's it's one of those things where it's happening all the time around us and if we start to pay attention and really get that feeling in our body we want more of it it feels good a clinician Deb Dana coined the word glimmers and she works with a lot of trauma survivors and saying things like safety or having too big of a feeling was too much for them right so she wanted to make it so small that it was achievable for everybody not too frightened one of her words actually that she uses is okayness yeah and i love that because it's like forget a safety connected just are you okay right now you've got your feet on the ground are you warm yes check okay are you hungry no okay that's good do i need to pee no no okay right now i'm okay it's quite interesting to um wonder how many people in the world are walking around not feeling okay I think most of us are and then we react it's like this reaction we're all reacting to life rather than responding to yes exactly and if reacting and if we part of the nervous system work when I started to learn about it I started to look at people differently and it wasn't like they're bad but like they're dysregulated they're acting from this place you end up having a lot more compassion for someone and then the co-regulation comes in when it's like if my nervous system can be steady then you're nervous then that will translate into your nervous system and it's also um you know in labor it's a big thing As soon as someone walks into the room in labour with adrenaline and freaking out, the mother's labour is going to stop.

44:30When there's someone next to her that's really calm and like, you know, girl, you've got this. Just take a breath. The other nice thing about this book, I think, is the written. The written work that there are bits. Yeah, the prompts and stuff that you can you can do to fill in. How important is it, do you think, for people? you know we're talking about um self-assessment to write something down it's a big thing for me I I'm a big journal keeper and what's been really helpful for the last few years especially being in a new whole new situation in my life is that I've can watch myself grow from reading back some of these journals and I really love it and I also have a lot of journals where I keep gratitude and things that I feel like oh I really grew through this or I handled this differently and I can write it all down and see how much I've changed and not everyone can go to a therapist or wants to go to a therapist and just by having some of these prompts we've got in the book and writing just what's in your head down on a piece of paper can get it out and when I got involved in my relationship when I was really really angry at least I knew this much do not just vomit it out on him take a moment maybe I went for a walk sometimes I would just write it all down pages and pages of what was going on inside me and as I wrote I would just start to breathe and feel like okay I'm I'm I'm grounding I'm settling it's not a threat this is going to be okay and it was a very very helpful practice for me and it is a very helpful practice for me how can people go from because I I am speaking to somebody at the moment who's entering into a new relationship and they are reactive to the fact that this person is good for them they really like them a lot and my friend really likes them a lot but um they are worried that they don't like them as much like do you know what i mean they're doing sort of their thinking for them but they don't want to seem too needy and what they need to do is just relax into themselves they've they've gone into it feels like panic mode yeah and it's you too and I like to feel in some way I have got much better I'm not quite at the zen level no but I feel like speak to our partners and talk about how you come I think what I what I hear from you is you're not reactive oh no that's not true that's not true yeah we are my son said to me the other day mum go read your book again and I was like no we are reactive those books you go read it again and it's not about not being reactive but noticing when I am reactive so it's like rather than just yes okay yeah yes noticing it and then being able to go back and repair.

47:54But I think in a brand new relationship, it's easy to do that when you're married with someone, you've got kids with someone, you're in a long-term relationship, you're both in love. But I was in the beginning. Okay, what did you do? What did you do? I had a really good therapist. Okay. And I did have her, like, I didn't make any move without speaking to her. And she's been with me for... Okay, that's helpful. I've been with her for 18 years, you know, so she knows all the relationships I've been in. She knew when I completely handed in the towel with relationship, like every other part of my life is good.

48:31I'm not waiting for this bit to happen. So I was able to talk to her and, you know, just little things like I'd been with him for a couple of months. Like he hasn't told me that he loves me yet. I'm like, I don't know how much longer I can just hang around and wait for this. you know like I've kind of walked out of my life a bit here and she went okay does he do anything for you and I'm like well yeah he makes my coffee and he really takes care with how he makes my coffee exactly like and she goes okay that's love and I went oh okay and then I started to see it differently everywhere hasn't yeah it wasn't just these guys you know it was like just it was action and I'm going to take that and give it to my friend.

49:17Yeah. And it really took time for me to feel, you know, I always had this thing where I'm like, what if he just finds out that I'm not as cool as he thinks I am, you know, or I'm not as calm as he thinks I am, or I'm not as anything, you know. I kept thinking I was going to get found out. Even waking up in the morning as myself with just, you know, Not that I wear much makeup anyway, but I don't know. It was quite exposing for me to really have someone looking at me first thing in the morning. And it just took practice and awareness and catching myself, writing in journals, going for walks. And I just kept noticing this person was still there, wasn't going anywhere.

50:06these hang-ups or they're like relationship hangovers from parents from loved ones where you could be in a relationship for a very long time and you've developed a strategy to cope with a behavior fear around noise dropping or being told off about something or somebody being irrationally angry with you or um not being helped at all um how interesting those those hangovers can be when you come into a new relationship and someone is quite helpful yeah and you keep going no no don't don't help me and it's like and that but i'm just trying to do something i want to help you it's like something nice but you're so not used to being helped at all that's why those like I think one of your questions is why do those big moments yes I can't remember what the question was a glimmer isn't a big moment yes that's why because like yes it's amazing if you have a new relationship yes it's amazing if you have a new house or a new job but if the nervous system is coming with you into the situation and you haven't healed that and once the novelty of that thing wears off still there you're still left with you I went into this new relationship everything that I could have wanted and I was absolutely petrified.

51:24Petrified. Because it was everything you ever wanted? Because my nervous system had never had that feeling of safety with another person, so I didn't totally trust it. And we kind of grew up with this, you know, our mum was very independent, had to earn her own money. And she taught us very clearly, earn your own money, never trust a man make sure you own your own flat or house and this is how you do it so suddenly I walk out of my life and into this person's life and I'm like oh no hang on I'm not supposed to as a woman I'm not have I just given everything up for a mat is it no this isn't right so thank goodness I did have a therapist that I could reflect all this stuff back to she's like no this is old and it doesn't belong to you and you're not having that experience this is your experience and it took me a while to go actually even if this doesn't work out i'm all right and it doesn't mean that she's always all right there's lots of wobbles none of us have to always be all right that's important no no no but like what's nice is that that's good to say to everybody none of us have to be all right i often get a phone call going to make the right decision yeah did I just give up my whole life should I not come home and actually work and do it and I'm like no yeah you're okay so it's like this you know it doesn't mean like once you figure out your nervous system and you know what the problem is it's all sailing from there it's like constant here it is again here it is again and being able to like find that safety and come back to yourself and I just wanted to share that story when you know looking for this big thing whether it is a relationship or whatever it is but I remember lying on the sofa one day with Jonah and Huxley her kids and we were just all cuddled up watching a film and I went oh this is love I've been looking for that but it's right here and in that moment I got it and then it was everywhere do you know what I mean and this was before the relationship it was suddenly I was like oh this is love and this is love and this is love and it's happening to me all the time I don't actually need that wait this has been a bit of an epiphany for me so listen you see things you see the glimmers but This now sounds like a massive advert.

54:02It's not. But basically what we're saying is that it only takes you to see the glimmer once, but then you will see it everywhere. Well, that was a big one. It changes an outlook. It definitely changes your outlook. I'm not saying. But you have to feel it. yes I mean I think in order for you to see it in more places you won't see it in more places unless you felt it it's this awareness once you have the awareness of it it's like oh there it is and

54:41another quite nice thought is like be the glimmer

54:47I sometimes smile at people and I think I wonder if like you need this you know what I mean my husband's like that he literally talks to everyone and he will constantly he go takes the dog for a walk and he's always hi how are you good morning hi how are you good morning and all he wants to do is just radiate love you know and and people know him everyone and we talk about that in the book it's the small the weak ties the weak ties that you start creating and then they become a community and every little street if everyone kind of helped each other out on the street like they did well that i was just gonna say they did in covid and they did in the 30s and 40s wartime you know whenever there's yeah but and that was such a beautiful thing in covid that we were all getting groceries for someone else that needed it and we were checking on this neighbor and that neighbor And it was such a beautiful building of community.

55:54And the other thing with glimmers that I think, especially right now, it is everyone's in so much fear. And I sort of like fend for myself. Very divisive. And a glimmer is connection. And it is, it makes you want to take care of each other. And I love that feeling of it. You know, it's like I feel safe enough to take care of you and to take care of anybody else. But from a real genuine place on the not because I need you to like me or not because I'm being codependent. I need to take care of everyone. But just this sort of when you feel safe and there's connection, it feels like we all belong and it doesn't feel like we have to be separate.

56:45and I think that if we can all do this in a tiny simple way it just starts to spread and that can only be a good thing especially at the moment. Let's talk about the kind of mid-lifers you know often we know that it is a time when for men it's particularly difficult I mean people often laugh about the mid-life crisis but the good end of a mid-life crisis is a sports car but the bad end is suicide you know it's a time when you are realizing that you're nearly halfway through your life if that you know like 45 is you'd be lucky to you'll be lucky to get to 90 and um you know you're looking at what what have you done that you wanted to do what did you what have you done that you set out to achieve this is a time when people can get very dark um what tips would you have for men and women because for women it's perimenopause which for lots of women is fine I mean for me personally my menopause journey has meant getting to the happiest place I've ever been in my life but I had to go through the change and I had to make some changes and let go of an opinion that I had of myself how I looked was perceived by society see it's really interesting like shift but i am free like i feel free and it's great but i went on a journey to get here i think what i'm hearing from you guys a little bit is that nothing good comes without the journey you can't just kind of um transport teleport yourself into a great feeling of well-being you've got to kind of work at it to get there but What tips can you give the men and women watching who are hitting this time of life and thinking, wow, I feel a bit lost and I don't know how to change?

58:49Well, I think, you know, like what you said, the good could be a sports car and the bad could be a lot worse. And asking for help is really important. And, you know, we do talk about that in the book. Yes. How to ask for help and learning how to be vulnerable because you can't do it alone. And we need community. And so whether that's help, you know, with a therapist or joining a community or a group or something, there's something for everyone, you know, and just just go and get help. And there's tips on how to do that in this book anyway already. yeah yeah and I think also at midlife there's lots of things that were working for you that maybe don't work for you anymore and whether that's drinking or you know it could be anything and that you're not like it's not working for a lot of us at midlife yes and so you're not alone and I think that's where finding a community of people can be really helpful but I think that The thing that I've been struggling with a lot and, you know, midlife is this idea that I am more than just what I do.

1:00:12I'm a person in the world and I'm of value and worth regardless of my career or how much money I make or how big my flat is or my house is like I have value as a person and this is a thing that's a huge thing and I think it's a really really big part because you know I've been really struggling with it because there's so much that I do want to do and in order to make time for those things I have to begin again and start all over again and I have to let go of an identity that has kept me very safe for a long time I knew who I was doing that thing that I was really good at and yeah I I like the idea of discovering who you really are as a person and how you can contribute to other people's lives with value, regardless of what you do.

1:01:22Can I just say I almost want to applaud that. I was just about to go like... I haven't been doing a very good one here to be. I'm just about to start clapping there Because I think you just talked about letting, that idea of letting go and safety and beginning again is like, for somebody who is sort of stuck in that like mode of, and that they aren't, they are always like that. you know we said fight or flight can save your life but if you're always there you just saying letting go of feeling safe in order to begin again and do the thing you want that is your dream it all seems so overwhelming to someone i took a plane in the middle of covid with a tiny little suitcase to sort of try something out i'm all quite sure how did you meet your partner um we've been friends for many many many years so I knew him as a friend and I knew you know his ex-wife and yeah you know knew everything but we were friends and then it was really interesting we had a dinner about eight years ago he came to London we went for dinner as friends yeah and at this point I totally signed off on relationships I'm not interested that's sick you know yeah I've done it I've done it I don't want any more I've done it and I don't choose very well and I I I accept that about myself.

1:02:51It's OK. You know, and I wasn't going to parties anymore, feeling like, oh, God, I'm the only one. I'm like, I'm cool. This is OK. But we went to dinner and we were talking as friends. And I just remember being really myself, just really open and just feeling really myself, which I never felt with men. because I had a dad that told me I had verbal diarrhea if I spoke too much or you don't know anything or whatever it was. And I remember going to therapy that week and going, I know I said I've signed off on relationships and I have, but what I did notice is at this dinner, not butts with him, but I did notice at this dinner that I really liked how myself I felt.

1:03:37Yes. I could just say what I want. I wasn't trying to impress anyone. I just, I like that feeling. So if I was ever to be in relationship, which I won't be, but if that's how I want to feel, I want to feel myself like how I feel with my sister, with my girlfriends. And so, again, that was the glimmer. It was a feeling that I recognized. It felt good. It felt good to be me. And I didn't have to pretend or do a show or, you know, as kids, it was like, oh, please love me. Here's a show for you. You know, if I just did that enough, you'll love me more. But it is it is a way to get love when you're young.