How to Date in Midlife and Reignite Your Sex Life!

30:41So absolute global deal breakers. Let's say you're on a date with someone and they show aggression towards someone else. Yeah. Or they're being really racist, sexist, transphobic, homophobic, showing those sorts of behaviours. Or maybe they're glorifying someone else's pain. These sorts of indicators of basically being a bad person, you know, doesn't matter where you come from. The real red flag. Real red flag. No matter where you come from, what your background is, what your politics are, you're going to look at that person and say, I'm not going to have a healthy relationship with that person.

31:14Out. So that's global. But then there's the personal ones, which I think are much more nuanced, much more important, often linked to values. So let's say one of your highest values is health. Yes. And you connect with someone on a date and they start talking about how they love nothing better than sitting around eating junk food, not exercising. You know, they don't look after themselves. They don't sleep well. And they're describing their whole life. And really, that becomes a deal breaker. Because as someone who values health, you want to live a lifestyle that is healthy. So connecting with someone who doesn't subscribe to that is not going to work.

31:57That's very interesting, isn't it? Because that's basically when somebody gives you the ick. Yes. And sometimes, is it a good idea, do you think? So you're setting out your values. like how soon on a date do you start mooting this idea isn't mooting a word yeah let's make it yeah i think it's mooting mooting mooting i think it's moot mooting um this idea of um you know what are your values because actually i think that the idea that we share the same values is important but is Is that like saying I'm just interviewing you? Is that a bit? It's about how you do it, mate. Oh, okay. Do you go, so?

32:42How to make values sexy. So? That was very sexy. I've heard me about your values. No, you do it covertly. Right. And in fact, you can do it if you're doing online dating. You can start screening for values on your profile. Okay. So it's just the language. I've never. Yeah, me too. We've just licked ourselves. I've never dated online. I've been very fortunate. and I don't know how much information you give online. I have some pretty clear views about the way to do that because a lot of people are afraid to give too much information away. Yes. But I think it's smart. Right. I believe in strategic dating, which means ruling people out as readily as you're ruling them in.

33:24Let's say your deal breaker is you don't want to have any more children. Yes, of course. That's so big. Right? That's so big. Lead with it. so that anyone who comes along who wants to have more kids is going to be put off. That's appropriate. Yes. You know, a lot of people have fear of, oh, but that's making the pool smaller. Well, that's good because it's becoming more tailored to you and more customised. So I really think you can use your profile and the photos as well to demonstrate you living your values. Here's me living the healthy life, being with my family, having an adventure. This is me being me so that people who come along and see those photos who don't have similar values or lifestyle are going to be put off good we want them away so I think this idea of like putting more information than you think you should because I think if I was going to go onto a dating app I would feel exactly the same as the the kind of people you were talking about who think I don't want to put too much on here because I'm revealing too much but actually yeah the important things like do you want to have any more children yeah I think political leaning, if you are extreme one way or the other and it really matters to you.

34:37It's a deal breaker. It is a deal breaker. Then put it on there. Yeah. Yeah. And this is something you can experiment with. And I really encourage people to do that. Maybe put that there for a week and see how people respond and maybe change it. But it takes a bit of courage because it is really putting your important stuff out there. But it is so much smarter. I also think the other fascinating thing about me as a person, and I'd be interested to see if you've changed like this, but my values have changed over my lifetime. How have yours changed? Well, I think we have enduring values that are pretty much you're born with and then some that are more adjustable.

35:21I think an interesting one for me has been my independence because that's such a strong thread through my entire life. But having a family has really shifted that for me. And it's almost like I think if I was to really drill down into it, it's probably been not replaced but probably sidestepped by belonging, that feeling of belonging in my family. That's more important to me. Yes, than your independence. Yeah. Yes. And the cool thing is what's packaged up with my independence is always travel and adventure. And we do that together. You know, we're the travelling Wilburys, you know. We're constantly having adventures together.

36:02And we lived in Bali for three years when Maddy was two and a half, you know. And we do this and we travel around. So I feel like I've got my independence in a different way with this beautiful little team around me. We're going to come back to values in a minute, but I'd like to quickly talk to you about your family and about Maddy because having Maddy was such an amazing and complicated and emotional journey for you. Yeah. Did you always want to have kids? No. So when did that happen to you? It wasn't until after 40. Wow. It did not hit me. So even after you'd met Gareth, like it wasn't immediately when you were together?

36:43No, it wasn't. How did it happen? Well, there was a long and boozy day at the races, Davina. As all good stories often start. And we'd only been together for maybe six months. And after the races, we thought it'd be a good idea to go bar hopping on the way home. Of course. And I'd have a cry in every bar, which was good. Great. Had a lovely cry. This is what happens when you date a Northern Irishman, of course. Brilliant. Yep. And I got to the point, I will laugh about it now, where I was blubbering saying, what if I can't have a baby? Will I be enough? Will you love me if I can't have a baby?

37:29And I was so surprised at myself that this came out. I didn't know where it came from. I'd never had this thought in my life. I didn't have a maternal bone in my body, I didn't think. But all of a sudden, this was coming out. This man, this partnership was making me feel comfortable enough to actually start showing some of that. So we did a bit of the dance back and forth. I was ready, he wasn't, he wasn't, I was, and so on. Got to the point where we both felt ready. I went off the pill after 20 years and was pregnant within about 10 minutes. Oh, yeah. It was absolutely instant and I was so not ready.

38:10Right. Went into absolute denial, I think, for probably a good six weeks. How old were you at this point? 40. And my body was starting to change and I was not up for it. And it was such interesting timing that I just found myself getting to the point of starting to accept the reality. This was at 11 and a half weeks. And then the miscarriage started. and it was the most shocking wave of grief that I experienced and still feel sometimes today. Of course. Because it was so surprising. I didn't think I had that type of love in me and all of a sudden I realised I had it and there it was and then it was gone.

39:01And it changed me in ways that I did not expect. softened me, opened me up in so many ways, made me realise that, and I think through learning to love Gareth and in such, you know, him making me feel so comfortable and safe and strong enabled me to let that little soft side out. And before we knew it, we're on this road to conception sex which is not very sexy very different isn't it yeah we did 12 months of that wow and the ups and downs and meanwhile i'm getting older can i just very quickly um for for anyone that's going through this at the moment um you're so great to talk to because you've been through so much yourself but with your psychologist head on um or hat on could you please give anybody any tips on how to navigate conception sex because it's really really tough on a relationship yeah i think humor is one of the best skills you can bring into it you know it's because it's not sexy it's functional we started calling the bed the workbench that's so in the workbench it's a job let's get the job done and i think there's something really cool about having conception sex but then having normal sex as well so having different times do that sometimes when it wasn't yeah sometimes it's not easy because you're so singularly focused on you know where where's my temperature where's the ovulation happening but to also find time to go, let's just be together and just enjoy this time as well.

40:51I don't think we did enough of that. Right. Yeah, I think looking back, there were moments when we did it and I remember reflecting back and thinking, yep, that was good. Should have done more of that. So that would be my advice. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, to break it up and to have, you know, almost like different sex hats on. Yeah. This purpose is the workbench, this is the bed or wherever you want to do it. But it is hard. Because I think that brings back real intimacy because conception sex isn't intimacy, it's practicality. That's right. It's a function. I bet you missed intimacy. Yeah.

41:26Yeah. In some ways it became stronger because we became such a team. Yes. You know, and having that shared, really passionate common goal of something that we wanted to create together definitely brought us closer. um but then would you say that's a very important piece of advice that if you're going to start trying for a baby you both have to want it equally yeah absolutely because a baby doesn't fix a relationship no you know and we hear that so often don't we that the relationship was on the rock so we'd have a baby oh no it's it's so important that it's a shared goal yeah particularly if you end up facing fertility trouble because it's so tough.

42:07So then we did IVF. And how was that? Because that's hormones. Oh, my gosh. I think the hardest, the cruelest part of IVF is that your body almost, it's like your body tricks you into believing that you're pregnant. You look pregnant. I remember having a belly that looked six months pregnant when I was having the hormone injections. I had all the emotions of someone who was pregnant. I had like a morning sickness kind of experience. Wow. It was like being pregnant and then poof, it's gone. And you'd already been through that with the miscarriage. Yeah. I think that's one of the hardest things with a miscarriage.

42:49That's right. You're still left with the feelings of being a mother for ages afterwards. That's right. That's right. And you have the physicality as well. and then you know we did the first round of IVF they put two eggs in because I was older they said we really need to make the most of this there were two that were ready to go and they both just fell away nothing nothing happened at all but then my doctor called me the next day and she said we've got this little Aussie battler this little egg that wasn't developed in time but it is now. Would you like to put it on ice? I said, yeah, okay. Let's just put it on ice.

43:31We're not ready to do it again yet. We've got to recover. We need time to heal. Put it on ice. And we waited until my next natural cycle. And they said, would you like to pop that little frozen thing inside you? I said, yeah, why not? Nothing to lose. I didn't have to go through the hormones again. I just went with the natural cycle. Yeah. Popped it in. and that's Maddie. So she was frozen for the first six weeks of her life. Wow. You know, we've actually only just told her that story last week. Oh, really? Yeah, she's 10. And? Oh, she was fascinated. Because she loves science. So she was really carefully listening because she's about to learn all the sex education at school next term.

44:16And I thought, well, I want her to know that her story is different from maybe some other kids because they're going to talk about IVF. and I said to her, you know, you're going to be having this conversation. What do you know about it? She said, well, I know that you have to have sex to have a baby. And I said, well, our story was actually a bit different and told her. She was fascinated. Wow. Yeah. I think it's so good to be able to have that conversation with kids. It's been interesting. I've found it so easy to talk to my girls, but I've kind of left it to my girls to talk to my son. It's quite difficult.

44:55You know, it's like a really interesting, it's been a really interesting journey. But I mean, he's brilliant and he knows what he needs to know. But it's been a fascinating, yeah, it's been quite a journey that. And so she found that out last week. Yes. And has she had the lesson yet? No, it'll be when she goes back to school. How? Because I want her to be able to say, that's me. I'm an IVF favourite. Mega. I'm special. And really interesting for the class. Yeah. That she'll know and be able to explain her story. Yeah. There was actually a test tube. It was in a lab. Wow. Yeah. So what was it like actually, you know, going through a whole pregnancy with Gareth and, you know, we're talking values.

45:46And I think sometimes you can be with somebody, say you want to have kids, go through everything. And then values are completely different when you've had a kid. Suddenly it's like, oh, my God, all of the things around being a parent. There are so many values that are tied up in being a parent. How was that? That's a really good question. Because it's interesting because Gareth was a parent already. So we have, I have a stepdaughter. She's 30, married. She's a big girl. Amazing. Which is amazing. She lives in Canada. So Gareth was in her life for the first sort of 10 years and they were, you know, not in touch for a little while.

46:24And then now they're back together again, which is beautiful. And they've both got matching tattoos of Northern Ireland on their back. The beautiful map of the country. I love that. Very special connection. So I knew that he had some parenting experience, but also it was a difficult situation. He wasn't with the mother and, you know, it was a different situation to ours. So I was very interested to see how that was going to play out. And it's essentially a new beginning for him. Yeah. You know, and he felt maybe he made some mistakes first time around and he got to redo those. God, what a great opportunity.

46:58So, so powerful for him. And I see him living it every day. How lovely. Yeah, it's really beautiful because our family, we're sort of built in a way that I'm the primary breadwinner and he's the primary parent in many ways with the way our careers are structured. So he, you know, takes Maddie to school on his e-bike every day, there and back, takes her to taekwondo, you know. Their bond is just so beautiful and I can see that as one of his values coming to absolute the fore for him is his role as parent and guide and support for her. It's so beautiful to watch. What I love about what you're saying is that it doesn't matter if you've made a series of mistakes through your life and relationships.

47:52Every relationship is an opportunity to correct those mistakes of the past. You can, you can begin again to stop. that happening again with someone else, either through a tweak to you. Well, you can only ever tweak yourself, right? Yeah. You can't tweak other people. No. Yeah. You can try. And it might work temporarily.

48:22What is that? Who are you? Davina, it's me. Us, from 2045. Oh my God. We look fabulous. We're still going strong. We're still doing workouts. We're still glowing like a lava lamp at Glasto. Clearly. And I just really wanted to come back and say thank you. Thank you. No. Did we overcome Rogan and become number one podcast in the world? Yes, that did happen. But that's not why I'm here. I'm here to say thank you for taking Ancient and Brave's True Collagen every day for the last 20 years. because... So that collagen scoop in my tea every day actually did work. You bet your glowing arse it did because when our collagen levels were supposed to drop, we supplemented with Ancient and Brave's True Collagen, my new show sponsor.

49:13The one backed by Clinical Trials using these sustainable and refillable bottles. Taking it every day is a great way of supporting future you. So if you're one of our brilliant viewers and you want 20 % off your first three orders of Ancient and Brave, then head over to ancientandbrave.earth.com. That is ancientandbrave.earth.com. And because they're a B Corp and a member of 1 % for the planet, that means that 1%, well, actually 2 % of their sales goes to protecting the planet. I hate to think how good we'll look in another 20 years.

49:51Can we? Because I am dying to see what he said. So Michael Douglas is my partner. Yes. Not, listen, Catherine Zeta-Jones, if you're watching. No, you don't want his. Don't worry. It's not that one. He can't do her. He can't do her. It's my one. He has done, he's taken your list of values. Love it. And he has put them in order of importance. And I have put mine in order of importance. and we did it after we left each other this morning okay so we do not know what we have put this is exciting um yeah and what's really nice about it is that I don't mind I think you know sometimes in relationships if I was doing this publicly I'd be terrified oh my god are they going to be super different and it doesn't really bother me but I am super interested to see what what his values are because it will help me be better maybe around him or with him.

50:59And understand him. And understand him better, exactly. Yeah. Can I ask why do you think you feel so comfortable and you're not scared, you're not worried about what's there? I think because before we got together, I knew him for decades. Oh, right. so he has been my hairdresser since 1999 wow yeah and neither of us were married we didn't fancy each other at all we both married other people and had children and we spent 20 years being friends wow and work colleagues and so when I say he was my hairdresser he was my hairdresser on TV programmes so we worked together three or four days a week and for 20 years.

51:48Wow. So we talk a lot, you know, about everything. I knew him better than I knew lots of my best friends. I can imagine that. Because we just spent so much time together. It's actually quite an intimate relationship, isn't it? Yeah. And I just know him. So I know. And that's a really, I think friendship is a nice place to start if you're going to date somebody. it's a very nice place to start because you know there are no surprises and there's trust there yeah yeah so i'm going to pause there we're going to get a board out let's get another tea yeah tea another tea lovelies so as if by magic we have magicked in our board and what we're going to do is so you gave me these 11 values yeah i'm not sure that we're going to be we'll have to squish them in a little bit but i'm going to put my most important value first and then you can show me michael's most important value and i love that you've done this separately so neither of you no we don't know others are we don't know brilliant and i think let's focus on your top three okay both of you because that's where the real magic okay you ready okay first one let's do it up here no I mean no surprises here I would imagine most people that watch this podcast probably know this is how I feel and also um touch is really important to me yeah like good sex and touch yeah so if I don't get this five times a day or something like I'm like what's going on yeah I it means a lot to me what what do you feel when you if we put the sex aside yeah the touch what what does that do for you um

53:45connected I feel connected yeah it's not a need for security but it's a connection I love the feel of skin on skin I love intimacy and closeness it brings closeness and I think that's what makes it for me special like I've got real close my best girlfriend I love her more than anything but the difference between Michael and my best girlfriend is that we are physically intimate me and Michael and that brings us Yes. Closer. Yeah. And I love that. Yeah. Why do you think that's number one for you? Because if we didn't have it, I don't know if we would last. Like it's that important to my relationship as a whole.

54:41Physical intimacy is a really clear indicator of how we're getting on. Right. Which is generally always good. it's an indicator of like how we're feeling in ourselves. I mean, obviously if there are things where we're both stressed, but it's got nothing to do with each other and we don't, then that doesn't happen. But if it's because we're misfiring or something, then that makes me feel sad. Like I always think that having a healthy sex life is a great indicator of our relationship as a whole. Like a little health test. Yes. And how it's going. Yes. Yeah. Okay. And it leads so beautifully on from the chat that you have with Tracy Cox recently.

55:32I love. Yes. I love that and seeing how important that is to you, you know, again, you know, talking to our audience at this age. It changes. Yeah, well, for lots of women it's not important, or men. Yeah. Yeah. But, and I guess that's what's important about finding somebody that feels the same as you. Like there might be somebody that loves me, but that isn't that bothered by it. But that would bother me. Yes. You know. Yeah. And this is where we'll get into this in a moment, but we can talk about there are values and then there are lifestyle preferences. Yes. Which are really values in action.

56:07Yes. So how that actually, how you live that. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Are we ready to see my first number one? Yes. All right. Do you want to guess? Do you want to try and guess what you think? Is it good sex? No. Oh, yes, of course. It's honesty. Yes. Well, at least I was honest about the good sex bit. Yeah. But I know that about Michael. And why do you think that's so important to him? I just think from his life and how he values, I know that he values us because even if something's very difficult, we will tell it like it is, both of us, to each other. And the other one doesn't fly off the handle.

56:52You know when it's a painful truth? You don't go, what the fuck? We'll go, okay, I'll take that on board. Or we'll say thank you for your honesty even if it was something difficult to hear. So we often talk about how lovely that is that we have that, together. So that's lovely. And it's interesting. I mean, at face value, they might look quite different. But how do you see the interplay between the good sex and touch and intimacy and the honesty? Well, I think without honesty, you can't have good sex. Right. Yeah.

57:35And I think also around good sex, there has to be an openness or a willingness to talk about things or, I mean, that will lead to you feeling safe enough, I think. Safety is really important for a good sex life as well. You feeling safe, seen, heard, you know. I think that's a real theme and perhaps a linking point here is feeling safe and vulnerability. Because both of these things at their core are about feeling safe enough to be vulnerable. Because when you're really honest, it makes you vulnerable. And when you're having good sex, really raw, open, intimate sex, you're being really vulnerable as well.

58:24So it's interesting, isn't it? you've both chosen something as your highest value that relates to vulnerability yes we are both very open people so number two number two for me is oh okay now we're getting some congruence I feel very, very proud of, I guess, the person I can be around him. I've always said this, like, I like who I am with him. So I feel safe.

59:14and he brings out the best in me for sure so um it sometimes I think if I've been in an unhealthy relationship in the past it's quite hard to be honest because you think oh where's this going to go am I going to get into trouble and you can't be honest because it's not safe it's not that I've been unsafe in relationships that's not what I'm trying to say but emotionally um And it's not just my marriage because I don't want everybody to think, oh, she's talking about her marriage. It's like way before that. It's just that I feel in a really, the honesty is the thing that makes this different maybe from my past.

1:00:01Being with the right person enables you to be honest. It does. And the right dynamic between the two of you. it is really interesting isn't it that honesty is up there for both of you and this is a mature relationship you know I think we were talking a little bit earlier about some values that change over time and I think this is one because it takes so much strength and vulnerability to really be honest can be something that develops later in life and it's beautiful when you can get there it takes bravery

1:00:33shall we look at his yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah god

1:00:43interesting we're starting to see why you feel together wow that is so funny what does that say to you well it's just i mean that's just so nice to see isn't it really it was funny because if i'm really honest when good sex wasn't the top one i was thought oh god I wonder where it's gonna be and I wasn't worried but I did think oh god I hope I haven't like embarrassed myself by putting it so high and it's like number seven for him and I guess if I'm really honest that probably I would have probably gone home and had a conversation about that and gone oh my god is it not as important for you like are we it would have made me feel a bit like unsure so weirdly having said it didn't matter I think actually interestingly it did it kind of did yeah but now there's relief yeah well seeing that I kind of believed that our values would be similar yeah um or you know top five or whatever yeah um so this is this is really nice yeah it is interesting I was like yeah yeah no I'd be fine I don't care whatever they are because I know I love him but actually it's funny it actually means a lot more than you think it's going to mean right what part of it's funny um just that just that it's it's the same but what I what I like was that because good sex hadn't come up first and I honestly thought I thought it probably would and it wasn't I was like oh oh, God, what happens if I...

1:02:24So I think the reason why it's funny to me is that it's relief. Yeah. That's what I'm... I'm laughing because I'm so relieved that we do feel how I thought we felt. Good. Yeah, that's what's interesting. And that there was a little bit of fear there. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. Which was unexpected. Unexpected. Yeah. And quite a weird feeling for me. Yeah. I imagine having put that up there first, you felt a little bit exposed. exposed yeah yeah and now this is saying there's no need to feel yeah you're there together yeah you're out on that we're in it together yeah yeah yeah okay let's see what comes next okay it's some more color okay ah um i can't tell you how important this is oh the kind to me yeah um and um this is something it's not it's just something that is um inherent in michael he's just a very very very good person and um i i knew this about him all the way through our friendship like he's extremely kind why is kindness so important to you as a person

1:03:41it's a quality that I really respect in people it's very easy not to be kind it's very easy to sometimes a short route or a funny route or a humorous route is to be cruel to someone about someone Michael is inherently a kind person wanting to make people feel good about themselves and I respect that enormously in him. And I think being kind to me, you know, when...

1:04:20I think sometimes, obviously, I'm famous and he's... You know, he's well-known in his field. It's quite hard to look after me sometimes or... And sometimes for, you know, guys when I was younger and I was on the telly or it was quite hard to handle. Yeah. And he's always been, he's never been sort of take the piss out of me or he's cheerleads, which is a kind act, I think. And it comes from a secure place. Yes. Yeah. Which is attractive. Yeah, really attractive. Yeah. Confident. Yeah. Yeah. He's not threatened. No. Yeah. And it links very closely with honesty because. Yes, I guess. Yes. That's interesting.

1:05:17Honesty is kindness, isn't it? Sometimes it's hard to be honest, but it is the kind. Kindest thing. Yes. As long as it's delivered in an aesthetic way. I think sometimes people can become more honest as they get older. Yeah. Like you become more confident.

1:05:35You know, it's an easier thing as you get older. It takes incredible courage to be honest and open. I think most of us, if we're being real, would say that there are aspects of ourselves that we're constantly holding back, keeping from people. And, you know, to be able to get to the point that you're at now where you're in this relationship, it's absolutely blossoming because you are both, you know, being open and vulnerable and honest. I mean, that's really special. I do feel very lucky. Is it luck or is it what you've created and what you deserve? Yeah, well, yeah. I mean, that's a really nice way of looking at it.

1:06:16And it takes work, doesn't it? Yes, yes, show me, show me, show me. It's ongoing. Yes. I mean, the interesting thing is, is that I don't think I'm particularly funny, but he is hilarious. You don't think you're funny? No. You're hilarious. I feel like I'm funny by mistake.

1:06:35Accidentally funny. Accidentally funny. And that's sexy too. Oh, yes. Yes, absolutely. There's been some interesting research done on that around attraction and one of the things they've found is that if the values are aligned and your lifestyle preferences are working well together, the laughs will come and it's when you're laughing that the real attraction starts to happen because you get into that playful mode and you drop your guard and you flirt. Humour and fun is such an important part of the mix. I think quite interestingly he is very funny with me in the fact that he can be very rude to me.

1:07:17But I used to get offended if people took the piss out of me. I wasn't very good at it. I would find it hard to handle, maybe because I was a bit insecure. And he literally, well, I went out for dinner with him, my best friend and her husband last night. And my best friend and him like literally ripped into me and I was howling with laughter because I know they care about me. Yeah, because it's coming from a can't voice. So it's so interesting how that's changed for me in this relationship that actually I quite like it when he takes the piss out of me because it feels like a loving act. Well, is that one of his ways of showing love?

1:08:07Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Definitely. And he does it in a kind way so you know how to perceive it. It's so funny. And I think, you know, the humour and the good sex are a really important mix as well, you know, because like we were talking about before with conception sex or any kind of sex, you know, even sex after menopause, you know, there can be some bumps in the road. So to be able to have that humour hat on, have a laugh. Yes. Laugh at yourself. Yeah, you can laugh in bed. Yeah. Yes. It's great. Yes. Naphrodisiac. Yes. Yeah. But preferably not at certain things or points. No. Pick your moments.

1:08:46Yes, pick your moments. Okay. What's next? Next one. Okay. So we have, oh, no, hang on, it wasn't that. A little preview. Ah, okay.

1:09:01So one of my favourite things about Michael is his brain. He is off the charts smart. But if he went back to university or back to school or something, he could study physics or quantum physics. He loves quantum physics. He's a force to be reckoned with brain-wise, and I find that incredibly attractive in him. So back to you and why that's important to you, would you say that intelligence has been an enduring value throughout your life that's important to you or has it come later in life? I think I like talking. If I can't talk things through or dissect something or have you read this and I feel really lonely.

1:09:49You know, it's possible to go out with someone, have a boyfriend and to feel a bit lonely because you can't talk. Yeah. So actually really talking to somebody or unpicking something.

1:10:05And I always look at comedians and I think comedians are very clever. You can't be that clever without being. I mean, you can't be that funny without being clever. Yeah. I admire intelligence in people and I like being brought up. Right. You know, I like it when I learn something from someone. I find that very attractive, like teach me something. Yeah. I don't know. Do you see yourself as intelligent? I never did when I was younger. And then I had a test, like a nonverbal reasoning and a verbal reasoning test before my operation. and I did very, very well in nonverbal reasoning and I had always thought I was a bit stupid and it's changed my whole life and it's made me very, very sad for the way that I spoke to myself all my life.

1:11:04What kind of things would you say to yourself previously? You're not smart, don't bother or you can't do this or if you were to take me to a dinner full of really smart people I would be really nervous because I just think I can't, I can't keep up with these people. I flunked out of my maths A level. I was like, what am I doing this for? This is stupid. I mean, I was taking loads of drugs at the time. So, duh. Of course I was going to struggle. But I'd quite like to go back and take my maths A level to prove to myself that I can do it. That would be an amazing thing to do. Yeah, it would be nice.

1:11:37Just for me. Yeah. Yeah. You don't have to share it with anyone. No, exactly. Yeah, just for you. Yeah. But I'm just, it did slightly make me feel sad that I did used to beat myself up when I was younger for something that wasn't true of myself. And how many times do we do that through our lives? We feed the wrong message to our brains and we become that wrong message and that's really sad. Absolutely. And that goes back to what we were talking about earlier with the mindset stuff and the self-talk. Yeah. And so often those voices are not even our own. You know, it's someone else. Maybe it's family or, you know, people you went to school with saying, you're dumb, you're not good with numbers.

1:12:18Yes. And we make that our own. But we don't have to. No. Ah. Ah. Yay. We are aligning beautifully. Oh, that's so nice. Yeah. It's beautiful alignment here. Yeah. That's so great. I'm going to put the next one up because we could quite possibly be here for five hours if I don't hurry.

1:12:47Now I'm laughing because it is funny. Let's just keep going. Yeah. Oh, romantic. Oh. And romantic, if you really wanted to look at it, is like a combination of all of these things, isn't it? You see, this is quite interesting because I didn't put it that high up romantic. But he is amazing. So, but I didn't put it out because things like, we don't do Valentine's Day. We don't do the big romantic gestures that people are expected to do with the thing because we don't need to because every day is romantic. Well, it depends how you define it, right? Yes. Isn't it? Yes, I think. How would he define it?

1:13:29Why do you think he's put it there? I think he's put it there because it's thought. Right. It's the thought. Yeah. Holding you in the top of his thoughts. I'm going to carry on. Okay.

1:13:46Oh, there it is. Davina, something tells me you two could be a good match. I think you should get married at first sight. Do you know what's funny? It's like I can't. Oh, that's a thing. Yeah, brilliant. is that I used to kind of hold getting married quite high up. Like it's not important to me anymore. It's quite interesting that. Why do you think that is? Is it because you've done it? Because we've done it and because we're such good friends and like it's not important. It's not going to add anything. And do you feel that it's perhaps something that's more important to other people outside the relationship?

1:14:31Yes, totally. Everybody's telling us all the time because they want it. They want a wedding. They want a wedding. They want it. They want it. He is the most stylish dresser ever. He dresses so well. Every day I'm like, oh, God. He's like, if he wears a red stripy T-shirt, he'll wear red socks with black shirts. Like it's all going on. On purpose. on purpose is that smart mel it's brilliant it look it's so good oh um yeah i really like that about him and it's um it's hugely attractive when somebody cares about the way that they look yeah the self-respect yes it's really nice and we're not embarrassed to be stylish together Do you couple dress?

1:15:24No. But we like to make a... Oh. Oh, yes, sorry. Very similar. Yeah, I mean, it is similar, isn't it? Yeah. It's the aesthetic. You know, you're both creative people. You're both in the public eye. Mm. Yeah, I see that. I wonder what my... I'm just quite interested what my next one... Oh. Ah! I was thinking, God, where is looks for me? But it's, yes.

1:15:56so looking at those two lists do you feel like they're in the right order for the two of you yes makes sense yep totally i would say honesty is michael's most important thing that he would he would say that yeah yeah it makes complete sense and i think mine would make complete sense to him too he won't be surprised no sees this no yeah and um i i can't wait to take a picture of it and take it back to him can i can i ask you something so say like a couple were at home have you brought out these cards at home you know once a year you could say right on the first of january every year let's bring out our values i think it's a really nice idea to talk through.

1:16:48I mean, even just you and me talking through it, I feel like I've had marriage guidance therapy. It's been amazing. And he's not even here. No. It's just from your perspective. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That would definitely be something that we could do. Great for couples. Oh, it's so good.

1:17:06I want to, shall we finish? No, let's do the last two. Let's do them quite quickly, or three. So, money. I've got next, all right. and then he's got style okay yeah then after money i've got occupation okay so there he's got money so we're getting into pretty similar territory yeah i mean honestly we're and then once children because obviously that's off the cards really for both occupation oh god that's interesting isn't it and once children oh my god hang on i gotta put this here so your nz pretty much the same they are the same yeah god how funny brilliant so interesting and so reaffirming yes i mean so reaffirming i'm definitely going to put you together yeah definitely yep great good match great and so would these be what you would do on maths.

1:18:10We do use values behind the scenes when we're pitching but I've also had the opportunity to sit with some couples like this and actually do it with real cards and that's where the real power comes from. We don't always have time but when we do I love it because I can just get right into it and go really deep. Love it. So one more thing I really, really want to cover and then I promise you I am going to let you go at some point Mel. You will be allowed to leave me but before you do go. It's something that I think is really important to talk about for men and for women. How do we talk about it? How do we make sure that we're doing the right thing?

1:18:49And that is consent. Yeah. Huge issue. It is massive, I feel. Yeah. And if we think about our listeners and where they might be at in their journey, having been in the dating and relationship space many years ago, so different. So different. In terms of the way the climate's changed. But also the way we've changed and what we now understand, if we perhaps start talking about from a woman's perspective, we now understand that we can say no if we're not comfortable. We don't have to be obligated to go all the way with someone. And I think what's been most enlightening for me in really learning about consent is two things.

1:19:31One, it needs to be enthusiastic. Yes, okay. I like that. It is not just a, oh, yeah, okay. It's, yes, I absolutely want to do this, whether that's verbal or nonverbal, but showing enthusiasm. And number two, it's continuous. And I think that's the most important part because that means that you can actually withdraw consent at any point throughout your sexual experience. And I think that's very new. It's a new concept because, you know, many years ago the idea would be… I've always liked that before. Right. Or you gave me a kiss. Therefore, that's an open door to have sex. Or I paid for your dinner.

1:20:10Therefore, you owe me sex. Yes. All of that stuff is irrelevant now. And it's now come down to that communication between those two partners or three or whoever's involved, the people who are involved. It's about that open communication and continuous communication. So this now means that if someone is entering into the sexual realm with you, it's not just about doing it. it's about talking about doing it so this is where all of that conversation stuff becomes so important I mean sometimes talking about doing it is foreplay you know it's like it's sexy in itself but what happens if um you start talking about it because I think if you're going to it would be is it sorry I'm I'm not making myself clear here but I'm just thinking while I'm going that if you go out on a few dates with somebody and you've sent lots of messages, I don't know, maybe it would be something that you might want to message so you're not having to do this face-to-face, but it's like, do you have any clear boundaries before we have sex if you know you're going to have sex?

1:21:19Or is that too much? Is that too obvious? Do you know what? I think we can learn so much from Gen Z here. Those are the kinds of conversations they're having and it's normalized. Right. It's a bit trickier for us because it's uncomfortable, but we can learn so much from them. I like the idea of having a consent contract with yourself. And this is something you can do before going on a date. And you can sit down with a piece of paper and just write down the things that I'm comfortable to do tonight. This is a contract with me. It's not about them. It's about me. Yes, nice. I'm happy to kiss. I'm happy to touch, et cetera.

1:21:55And these are the things I don't want to do. Yes. And take it with you. Have it in your bag. So if you need to, if you get a bit wobbly, you can go back and check on it. It's a contract with yourself. And I think these kinds of tools can be really, really helpful as you're learning, you know, to start navigating this new world of consent because it is different and it won't come naturally. But then I guess the next piece is how do I say it? Yeah. Because that is hard. Yeah. You know, I think you make a good point there with the texting because these days, The beauty of communication is it's multifaceted.

1:22:28Yes. It doesn't all have to be verbal face-to-face. You can use other mediums. So if you're more comfortable before a date saying, really looking forward to seeing you tonight, just letting you know I won't be staying over but really happy to enjoy dinner and maybe a drink afterwards, setting that expectation so it takes a lot of the pressure off. I mean, even when you said that and I'm not even on a date, It made me kind of go, you know, like the relief. You're not thinking, oh, my God, is he expecting me to go back? It is a different game, isn't it, altogether nowadays, the dating game. It's so challenging, I think, for people our age who haven't done it before.

1:23:17Or have just, to use one of my mum's terms, put up with it. Right. So I think of women now dating, maybe in our age and older, who maybe in previous relationships didn't feel comfortable with sexual activity but just did it. Yes. Because that's what they should do. Now finding their voice to actually say, well, firstly, to acknowledge it to themselves, to go, oh, that feels wrong, I'm not comfortable with that, but then to actually articulate it. It's the kind of thing that I think can take a little bit of practice and this is where you can take the consent conversation out of the sexual realm and into the domestic or normal life realm and start practising it.

1:23:58Yes. Even if it's saying things like, okay, if you're asking for consent, asking someone before you hug them. Is it okay if we hug? I do that with everybody that I don't know when they ask for a selfie. Right. Can I put my hand on your shoulder? Beautiful. That's good. I, but I've only started doing that maybe in the last sort of 10 years. Okay. That's consent. Or I just used to hug everybody. Not everybody wants it. But I did that because of my kids. Right. And so how does that work in the other way around? Like if we're thinking about someone who's learning to express that they're not comfortable with boundaries, starting to express those in other realms that aren't sexual.

1:24:40So, for example, if someone does put their arm around you, for example, in a workplace or you're standing in line for a coffee and someone's getting too close. Do you know, I would find it very hard to say something. Okay. I would, because I would think that people were thinking I was being difficult. You can do it non-verbal. But that's bad, isn't it? Well, you've been socially conditioned. That's not your fault. You know, that's what we've been told to believe. You can do it in a non-verbal way. So, for example, if someone's behind me in the line, I'm lining up for a coffee and they're too close, I'll turn around, give them a look and move away a little bit.

1:25:18And so non-verbally I can be saying to them, too close, mate. Yes, okay. Yeah, or on the tube, classic example. Yeah. Always opportunities, people too close to you on the tube. And that's probably a good place to start practising it actually, to start giving someone the look. So eye contact to say I'm serious, I'm not comfortable with this, and then move yourself away. Creating a physical barrier between yourself and the uncomfortable situation is a good move. So whether that's literally moving to the other side of the train, putting a book up, you know, those sorts of things are good practice that will help you that when you get into that sexual dilemma that might be a bit uncomfortable, you'll be a little bit more comfortable saying it.

1:26:02That's actually really important to do the little steps in a social situation beforehand to give yourself the confidence to be able to do it in a bedroom or somewhere a bit more intimate where it might be hard or otherwise. Baby steps. I was thinking that what about if you've been with somebody for 15 years and you are thinking, I want to spice up our life. But then it's like asking consent for something that you've never tried before. and you're a bit worried that your partner might go, what? Like, or overreact. Like, how do you broach that kind of topic? Like, I don't know what it might be, but it might be something frisky or fruity that you've never done before and you think, oh, God.

1:26:47It's all part of the continuous consent conversation, you know. So just because you've consented to it before doesn't mean you will now. Bringing something new in, you've got to have the conversation. You know, I think this is we're coming back to all those values we were talking about with you and Michael, with the humour and the trust and the honesty, having all of those elements in place enable you to have those beautiful conversations and to maybe not take it too seriously and say, look, I feel like a bit of a dick, but I really want to try bringing a third person in. What do you think? Haven't done it before.

1:27:19Shall we try it? How would you feel? And I guess even if you don't want that, just listen, go god I totally understand what you're saying but I really and then nobody being offended yeah that's the key isn't it I hear you yeah um I don't think I'm really ready don't I'll go away and process what you're saying and I'll come back to you but I'm not sure how I feel about it but it's not like nobody should be shamed in that situation because it's brave and honest yes yeah and that's what makes it safe and safety is key yeah safe safety is sexy safety's sexy yeah well if you're me everything is yeah

1:28:13i love it on that mel i'm gonna come over here and hug you um full consent full consent

1:28:26Thank you.