How To Have The Best Sex Of Your Life (again, and again and again!)

19:06Cindy Gallop:have that no nonsense conversation yep absolutely and the key thing about the academy too is so we are bringing all of this education together and in the first instance by the way all the educators we've invited because we consider them the best of the best and then we make all of their work easily searchable, you know, by age appropriateness. You'll see on the homepage you can enter whatever age you want to find the right education for. By cultural sensibility, you know, so we have Christian sex education, you know, again, based on, you know, whatever your personal background is. But very importantly, by personal comfort level as well.

19:48Cindy Gallop:Yeah. You know, so we just bring all this together. You can decide what you feel is right for your family or, by the way, for your classroom or school because we have lesson plans. We have lots of different approaches with brilliant educators creating education for schools. You know, you can finally all in one place see what is out there and decide what you would like to make use of. And that's what's never existed until now. We owe our kids. Absolutely. We're doing them a disservice at the moment, I think. And also, you know, Damina, very importantly, So there's a reason that our name is Make Love, Not Porn.

20:26Cindy Gallop:We view everything through the lens of love. Make Love, Not Porn is love in action. Make Love, Not Porn Academy is education through love. And I say that because we now have children growing up where they are living as much through screens as IRL. They are communicating predominantly through screens, which means that IRL social interactions can be awkward and anxiety-inducing. They are stumbling across porn at very early ages. They are forming romantic and sexual relationships with AI chatbots. Chatbot use is exploding amongst children and young people. Isn't it? It is. And chatbot relationships are friction-free, play back exactly what you want to hear.

21:09Cindy Gallop:What is getting lost in all of that is the joy, the messiness, the friction, the connection and the wonder of first love. And so we are framing everything at the Academy in the context of love, intimacy and relationships. So it's not just sex education, it's dating education, it's relationship education, it's love education.

21:30Davina McCall:I loved it when you talked about the friction. there's something joyful and funny and sweet about when you're with someone you love and you try something and it gets a bit like awkward or but you trust them you love each other you respect them and something and then you can talk about it there's something so magical about that but the wealth of learning that you each get from entering into a situation like that there was a lovely story I think you were telling about in Make Love Not Porn when somebody on the site went into role play oh yes will you just tell us that sure yeah so so the great thing about

22:16Cindy Gallop:Make Love Not Porn is that what you see is the real world version of everything you know and we have everything we celebrate the full glorious spectrum of human sexuality so we have you know kink videos, BDSM videos, but the real world version. Yes. You see the negotiation and boundary setting. So you do see what happens beforehand. Yes, yep, yep. And especially because we ask our Make Love Not Porn stars, as we call our creators, to introduce and contextualise their videos. And so we have a ton of roleplay videos. But only on Make Love Not Porn will you see a video where the couple decided to play out this particular scenario.

22:54Cindy Gallop:and halfway through one of them goes you know what this isn't really doing it for me the other one goes yeah it's all a bit meh isn't it they go that's a fuck and and and it's so important to see that because what that says is this is all very low stakes you know you can try something you can discover you don't like it you can drop it you don't have to like power through regardless you know um you can go okay try that not great for us let's move on you know and and i always remember to your point about you know when you when you start making love having sex so we have a video because again this is the real world where you know with a make love not porn star couple the man suddenly ejaculated prematurely you know no one saw that coming literally it's hysterically funny by the way and this young man left a comment a very long comment and he said something like he said um i'm 24 and i've only just started having sex for the first time and you know it's so it's so difficult to know is it okay if i do this is it all right to laugh at that and he said um he just rhapsodized about how reassured this video made him feel and he ended saying um there are so many wonderful things about this video that are nothing to do with sex yeah and and that is the point you know I mean we all want love intimacy and human connection you know you see that at play on make love not porn and so you see what it's like to be with someone you trust you know to feel relaxed to be able to laugh when something accidental happens and and to be wonderfully connected you know we showcase the great sex we all want to be having and and I think it's so important you know it's interesting um a lot of what we're doing is a new real world spin on old world truisms what do you mean by that so you know we've all um we've all heard if not from our parents then you know um sex is best with someone you love now um now as someone who's had a lot of casual sex i do not in fact endorse that truism but it is absolutely true that when there is feeling and meaning it is transcendental when it comes to sex it is a whole dimension of sex that a lot of people very sadly have not even gotten to experience and so when we take the guilt shame and embarrassment out of it when we can talk about sex and educate about sex as it's all about pleasure as opposed to by the way the parental teacher thing that goes and don't catch this and wear condoms and you know it's all about pleasure and the pleasure is especially great when you have established a degree of trust and mutual respect and you know that you are both there to have a good time with each other and to consider the other person and that then just takes it to a whole new level and so that dimension of education is severely missing when a lot of people focus on here are the knots and bolts you know this is what happens and and there are all these emotional dimensions of pleasure that are so important to educate about

26:01Davina McCall:It's very interesting how, you know, it's like here are the nuts and bolts, but it's almost portrayed as something you're not supposed to enjoy. Like it's a duty, you know, procreation. But there's just so much joy to be had in fun, loving sex.

26:20Cindy Gallop:And importantly, Davina, that message is crucial for girls and women because the double standards of our society mean that, you know, girls and women are especially, you know, told it's a duty, you know, nice girls don't enjoy it, you know, including, by the way, the complete lack of openness to female masturbation versus the massive acceptance of male masturbation.

26:46Davina McCall:I mean, there are a lot of young boys that don't know that girls masturbate. Yeah. Can I just say something, Cindy? I loved this from the last time we met. you sound so posh when you say masturbation you go you go masturbation i'm like oh sexy um i love it just want to say that um but that that again i i love this idea of let's encourage girls to masturbate like and and often you'll find if girls were to rub themselves on something everybody's like no no stop doing that but it's completely normal for a boy to try it's like don't shame them just say choose to go somewhere quietly and privately or don't let other people see you go

27:29Cindy Gallop:enjoy yourself do you know that's so important especially because um children naturally begin masturbating very very early you know so i have um two girlfriends each of whom have small children um who said to me precisely because they've known me for a long time they've totally internalized all the lessons of make love not porn and so you know one friend her daughter at three years old began playing with herself and so my friend um and and the other friends were they've totally done the right thing that they've encouraged you know absolutely enjoy yourself but but to your point um they've made sure that they teach their daughters you know and this is something we do in private yes it's lovely you should absolutely feel free to do it and we just do it in private when nobody else is around and and and they've completely normalized it which is which is so important because again if you do not know how to get pleasure out of your own body yeah how will you make sure that you experience pleasure with somebody else this episode is brought to you by

28:28Davina McCall:airbnb i know it's only the second month of this year but michael and i are already working out where we're going to take our kids on holiday and we have decided on grease we started mapping out dates with my team last week and everyone was sharing their holiday plans for this year sarah told us about how she's going with her best friend to Cumporta in Portugal. And what is so brilliant is that while she's away, she's actually going to host her home on Airbnb. Now look, she's done it once before and she found it so easy. What is so clever about Airbnb is that you can make your home available for dates that suit you.

29:06Davina McCall:So for Sarah, her guests are going to arrive after she's left and then they leave before she gets home. And that's a bit of extra money that she'll make from hosting, well, it can go towards a holiday in Portugal. So look, if you're heading away, think about hosting on Airbnb. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much on airbnb.co.uk slash host. Who cares wildly for you? Is it your mum? Or is it someone who stepped in and became mum to you? I lost my mum 18 years ago and our relationship was complicated to say the least but I have been so blessed to have my step-mom Gabby my goodness she's been there for me through everything Mother's Day's coming up and I think it's such a lovely day but it's also a really good reminder to tell the women who've held you up in your life how much you love them and sending flowers with a little card don't forget the card everyone is a really lovely way to do that.

30:10Davina McCall:Our sponsor Bloomin' Wild delivers the most gorgeous blooms like these ones and their flowers are sent in bud so they just arrive beautifully fresh and they last for absolutely ages and if you really want to go all out you could add a little candle or maybe some chockeys. So this Mother's Day care wildly with Bloomin' Wild and I've got a code use my code Davina for 15 % off your next bunch. in a relationship sometimes women don't feel they have a voice or if something is suggested um it's like oh i have to go along with this what how do women find their voice and verbalize their desires and if they should they if there was somebody they really love and they want to try something and the girl's a bit like oh my god i'm a bit nervous should they get give it a go should they not give like what do they do sure so um so first of all um um i'm biased because

31:11Cindy Gallop:obviously i designed a solution to this but i want to say that you know what girls and women tell us um when they watch make love not porn because what they are seeing there is orgasm equality okay i mean equal everything um one one young woman left a comment on one of our videos saying after watching this video i felt so enabled and empowered in my own sexual agency Thank you for this gift. We give girls and women sexual agency. That's a great expression. Isn't it just? I mean, they see how they can choose the sex they want, ask for the sex they want, have the sex they want. And again, all of it boils down to, I mean, the one-word answer to your question is communication.

31:55Cindy Gallop:And yes, you absolutely should communicate.

31:58Davina McCall:But you were just saying, yes, they should have the sex that they want, get the sex that they want, blah, blah, blah. But what about the sex that they don't? Same deal. Communication.

32:07Cindy Gallop:OK. So so essentially, if if somebody is doing something that you do not like. Yes. Absolutely. Stop. Stop. And and have a conversation about it. And and, you know, it is ironic how difficult people find this. But, you know, to use my own example, just to reassure our listeners. So I, you know, as you know, I date younger men and I absolutely encounter that moment where you're in bed with somebody and he breaks out the porn moves. And I go, OK, we're going to have to have a conversation.

32:42Davina McCall:And I am fully aware that, you know. Sorry, just quickly, just so that people know what we're talking about. When you say porn moves, it's something that he probably saw in a porn movie, but that's not very connected.

32:55Cindy Gallop:or I mean basically you know if someone by the way the obvious example because it's absolutely happened to me is non-consensual choking okay which I'm not having any of by the way at all but but also if it's sort of ridiculous positions or you know or anything you don't particularly want to happen I'm fully aware that you know I think to myself right the moment I say something the atmosphere in bed is going to change but I have to have this conversation for every other woman he will ever sleep with you know and oh wow that's a nice also a nice way of looking at it and and the key thing here is um first of all when you actually speak up and talk about what you want to do and the key thing by the way Davina is I I always do it as positive reinforcement okay so I go what you want you know what would really turn me on is if you stop doing that and Why don't we do this?

33:50Cindy Gallop:Whatever. But essentially, it's, you know, this is really hot. And it's going to be even hotter if we. Right. So first of all, I have never, ever had a bad response when I've broached that conversation. Because fundamentally, everybody wants to be good in bed. Yes. But no one knows exactly what that means. Yeah. So I found people are really open to, right, you know, I'm going to learn something here. and she's saying it'll be even hotter if I do this. And that's, you know, bring it on. And then secondly, it is actually very sexy to talk about sex in bed with the person you're having it with while you're actually having it.

34:30Cindy Gallop:Because this is, and the term dirty talk does not do it justice because dirty talk is often taken to mean like forbidden words. Literally, talking in bed is fantastic because there's nothing hotter than going, I love it when you do this and if you do this to me then it'll be even better and and and that's a real turn on in itself you know I think I said this last time we spoke the single biggest turn on in the world is to be in bed with somebody and know they're having a bloody amazing time because of you and people are really open to conversations that are making sure that is the case and and And by the way, you know, I think people are also open to the fact that this is a chance to add to their own sexual repertoire in a way that can only benefit them.

35:18Cindy Gallop:I remember having a hysterical conversation on a panel with the wonderful Jamila Jamil, whom I adore. She is an angel invested in Make Love Not Porn. We are her first ever investment. That's how much she believes in what we're doing. and we were on a panel together in London some time back and talking about the importance of communication in terms of learning how to be great in bed and teaching other people how to be great in bed. And Jamila went, I love the way she put it, I mean, who would not want to be thought of as a legend in these here streets? And when you go, right, more information to help me be the best in bed ever, people are really, really open to that.

35:59Davina McCall:I mean in bed confidence is key you know knowing feeling like you're learning something it makes you it boosts your confidence and I think that positive um enforcement as opposed to negative that's a brilliant steer for people because it makes the person that you're with feel more confident um but how do you build your confidence in bed and specifically Cindy I love um your confidence about your body I can see how you feel about yourself it is incredibly attractive and as you know with your um many gorgeous friends that you have um how do you get there if you're a woman and you're thinking I just don't feel desirable what can you do honestly you know

36:51Cindy Gallop:at a very fundamental level um and and and this and this is what we say at Make Love Not Porn everybody is beautiful when they're having real world sex and and I mean that literally because to our listeners if you are in bed with somebody they are just enormously grateful you're there okay you know you're there with them your body is the most amazing thing ever seriously that is how they're thinking you know do not internalize the voice that social media drives that says to be hot and you've got to be this skinny six-pack abs look like this seriously if you're in bed with someone they are so happy you are there naked they're getting to do wonderful things with you know that okay that that is ground zero of like great real world sex and and then you know um i i really recommend interestingly you know listen to your body okay and again a lot of us don't because all of this ridiculousness we're assaulted with detaches us from our bodies okay we we don't um we don't stop and listen to them in terms of how they are responding you know so so i said earlier you know if something is happening about that you you are not a fan of stop okay because your body is already telling you you're not a fan of this okay so stop and have a conversation about it regroup and redirect it but listen to what your body's telling you about whether you do or don't want to do this.

38:20Davina McCall:I also think that as we get older, I think some of our listeners will have either been in a relationship for a very long time or will be encountering a new relationship, perhaps after an old one has finished and starting afresh in midlife sometimes. And how it's very different to when you meet somebody when you're uber young, because I'd like to talk about dry vaginas and the menopause because it is something that happens to many women and after cancer and, you know, cancer treatments. And that actually vaginal estrogen is life-changing and safe. But please don't. I'm not a doctor. If anybody's listening, please go and talk to your doctor about it.

39:09Davina McCall:But it is, you can start at any age. You could go on for as long as you want. It's topical, but it will reopen your shop. It has a profound effect on, well, not getting UTIs and also keeping your vagina lubricated. But what's interesting is how, and I have felt like this at times, but I don't anymore, but how I was a bit embarrassed about having to use it, that there was something in some way, oh, am I not like sexy anymore or am I not sort of feeling sexy? or is it, it's not that, it is just that your body isn't making something. Do you hear from women and men? And that was the other side I wanted to talk about because as men get older, you know, it's sometimes harder to get a really powerful, strong erection or to maintain it, but it's not you.

40:03Cindy Gallop:No, no, no, exactly. So first of all, can I just say to you and our listeners, lube, lube, lube, lube, lube. I love lube. I love lube. There is no such thing as too much lube ever. No, ever. Okay. And I say that because, I mean, to your question, Damina, years ago a young woman wrote to me, a teenager, and she said she had issues with dryness and my boyfriend won't let me use lube because he says I should be getting wet like all those ladies in porn. Yeah. Okay. And I wrote back, lube, lube, lube. And basically, I recommend that everybody keeps their favourite lube on their nightstand. They whip it out.

40:49Cindy Gallop:Don't ask permission. Because honestly, the moment anybody feels the feeling of lube, they're sold. So there is nothing to be shared about because nobody produces vast amounts of wetness in the same way those porn cells have a giant barrel of lube that you cannot see off stage that they are shipping in tons of. So absolutely go to town with a lube, go to town with vaginal estrogen. There is zero failure of anything, especially as you get older. And then for older men, so again, the really unfortunate thing is that so porn impacts people's perceptions of sex at every age. and in fact I remember a lovely email I got again years ago from an older gentleman in Ireland actually and he wrote to me and by the way people write to us because they don't know who to turn to, you know they have nobody to ask in their community about very sensitive issues so this gentleman wrote to me and he said I am you know he was in his late 50s he said my wife very sadly died a few years ago I feel I would like to start dating again.

42:05Cindy Gallop:But since my wife died, I've been looking at porn and it seems that women really like really big cocks. And mine's, you know, not that big and I'm a bit worried about dating. And honestly, I was virtually choking up reasons. And so I wrote to him and said, there's a reason they're called actresses. They're acting. It is absolutely not about what you, you know, and the male actors are cast for that. You know, it's not what you've got. It's what you do with it. And he wrote back and said, thank you so much. You've given me the confidence to go out and date again. I mean, just just adorable. And so, you know, I want to reassure men, especially older men.

42:49Cindy Gallop:First of all, you know, it has nothing to do with your proportions. It's all about what you do with it. And secondly, and again, this is a very important thing we also try to educate on and make love, not porn is in the real world, in real world sex, men of all ages are regularly not erect or semi -erect because that is what happens in the real world. And so we have a tag for videos on Make Love Not Porn where the man is not erect or semi-erect. Our tag is derived from the world of ice cream. We call those videos soft serve because soft serves are yummy and delicious. And the key thing, I think, Davina, is also, but very importantly, again, for the older men and women listening.

43:36Cindy Gallop:So an older couple wrote to us some time back. They've been married for 20 years. Had a wonderful sex life. The husband then very sadly diagnosed with prostate cancer. Fortunately, operation, chemo, everything was good. Came out cancer-free, but erectile dysfunction resulted. And so they had a wonderful sex life, were unhappy about this, went to see a therapist who said to them, there's this website called Make Love Not Porn. And they rhapsodised about, oh, my God, your videos, your Make Love Not Porn, so they're wonderful. What was interesting was at the end of the letter thanking us, They said, our sex life is now even better than it was before the operation.

44:16Cindy Gallop:And while they didn't spell this out, I think that was because we showcase many ways to enjoy yourself that are not all about penetrative sex. It is not all about penis and vagina. And so as you get older, you know, I mean, first of all, be aware that not getting an erection is entirely normal. There's nothing wrong with you. And secondly, there are so many ways to have a good time that don't require an erection.

44:40Davina McCall:I also think that this is really, really important for women also who have had cancer treatment, who sometimes their libido is lessened or whatever. But you don't have to have penetrative sex to be intimate. You can be really intimate and together and bonded without it with your partner. and don't worry there are ways to still feel connected in that way I met somebody once at a festival and we went it was a woman and we just went deep straight away and it was about that and I felt so sad for her I could literally see how worried she was about her and her partner growing apart and how it was such a big part of their lives before and how she just didn't know how to get back in and we talked about non-penetrative intimacy and how to do that.

45:36Davina McCall:Exactly.

45:37Cindy Gallop:I remember years ago I tweeted something on Twitter about the female orgasm and a ton of my male followers, and these were lovely men but very well-intentioned, replied with things like, oh Cindy, I don't think I could keep going that long, or something along those lines. So I went, guys, newsflash, we don't need your dick to orgasm. your mouth your tongue your fingers will do just as well and i said and in fact i've been known after my partner has come to say lend me your hand and by the way you don't even have to do anything i will move it for you because i've totally done that and got myself off accordingly

46:16Davina McCall:yeah i mean there are so many wonderful ways to have a great time never even thought of that so if the man comes first and then he's like roll back and gone yeah all i'm done yeah it's like no No, no, no. Give me your hand.

46:29Cindy Gallop:Seriously, I've done that. You know, I'm still raring to go. Give me your hand. And you can just lie there and I'll move it for you.

46:36Davina McCall:I did and I had a great time.

46:37Cindy Gallop:Yeah.

46:39Davina McCall:I mean, you know, but for some guys, this would be like, what? But why not? We deserve that. Exactly.

46:48Cindy Gallop:As well. Yeah. And then, by the way, and then he feels even better because, you know, we've both orgasmed. Yeah. Another thing I was thinking about was this idea of exploring, say, either you've been in a relationship for a while or you meet somebody new and they perhaps have a

47:13Davina McCall:sexual preference. Like now, I feel like there's just a myriad of options sort of open to everybody with apps and people alike. It's becoming more normal to look at having threesome, swinging, orgies, field, meeting strangers, hookups, like all of that. but if you're not used to navigating that and you meet somebody who'd quite like to what do you do

47:43Cindy Gallop:yep so um you know this is another reason why we all need to get um happier and more at ease with talking openly about sex um and in fact i designed make love not porn i said to my team one day you'll be on a first date you'll be able to call up your profile on make love not porn and go this is who I am sexually and and the reason that's important is because on the one hand there are opportunities to expand your sexual horizons but on the other hand if you don't want to you don't need to and I'll give you my own example of this um you know years ago um I met a young gentleman online this is in the U.S.

48:23Cindy Gallop:um uh communicated you know I have a whole filtering

48:25Davina McCall:process put them through and I liked your filtering process by the way that was very good and can I tell you something quite funny i told somebody about that yesterday oh right yes i said this is how you need to filter yep and it was thanks to you and if anybody's wondering what that is by the way just go and watch the first podcast that we did excellent this is like basically cindy's going to be like the encyclopedia britannica of sex we're going to get her on every year for the next installment but watch the first one and then this one yeah so anyway you know very

48:56Cindy Gallop:nice young man and because I put him through the filter he was actually based in Washington and so we agreed that he would come and spend the weekend with me and as I said I've been pretty rigorous on the filtering and so I felt comfortable inviting him to do that. So he turns up okay and and he is he's a very nice young man but I discover in bed that he is really into spanking and spanking in the sense of being spanked himself. Now, I'm completely happy to, like, go with the flow, but it became clear that this was really his thing. And I remember thinking at the time, actually, I'm very pleased that I'm only engaging in these casual encounters.

49:43Cindy Gallop:Yes. Because, you know, if I was someone who had met this young man,

49:47Davina McCall:fallen madly in love with him, and wanted to marry him,

49:51Cindy Gallop:I personally would not want to be spanking him for the rest of my life and it just struck me that is absolutely a case where you want to make sure that you are connecting with somebody who shares the same proclivities and is just as turned on by spanking you as you are by being spanked and so that's what I mean by but on the one hand it's terrific to absolutely have the flexibility to expand your sexual horizons try a few things, see what you like, see what you don't like. On the other hand, if you are looking for a committed relationship, you do need to establish pretty early on whether you mesh sexually.

50:33Cindy Gallop:And again, I have friends who have gotten into committed relationships with people who had certain preferences that they only revealed over time. Right. And the other person, because they loved them, kind of went with it, but were not thrilled about something that turned out to be very fundamental to their partner's sex life.

50:58Davina McCall:Do you mind, could you expand on what kind of thing that would be and did they end up splitting up?

51:04Cindy Gallop:Yep, they did. I mean, essentially it was BDSM, you know, very much into kink in a way that was not every so often, but really this is what I'm all about. But that conversation had not been had when they were falling in love, you know, and as I say, only emerged over time. And ultimately, the other partner really felt they could not sustain this in the way that the first partner required it. So, yeah, that marriage did not last.

51:39Davina McCall:It's sad that, isn't it? It's interesting. What I've just heard from what you've just said is that, you know, in a casual relationship, when you first meet somebody and the first time you are together and they try something out, you think, well, I'll just go with it. But because I don't have to see them again, I'm not in a committed relationship. I'll do it with you just for fun, whatever, because you don't have that deep connection. But once you've got the deep connection, you're kind of stuffed, aren't you? Because you want to stay with that person and make the effort. But then if you end up feeling compromised, you can't be with them anymore.

52:18Cindy Gallop:And the key thing is that at the same time, there are many people out there who would actually adore to be partnered in that context, have not have not necessarily found the right person with whom to commit where their interests mesh perfectly. You know, and this is why I'm saying we need to be able to be more open about that from the get go. You know, on a first date, it's absolutely fine to talk about, you know, your food preferences, your travel preferences. Yes. Yes. Actually, if there were not this miasma of guilt and shame and embarrassment, I think more people would say, you know, this is actually what I'm into sexually in a way that is about what is negotiable and what isn't because it's a fundamental part of who they are.

53:05Cindy Gallop:You know, again, you know, our sexuality is as much a core attribute of our personality as anything else is. We should be able to talk about it. Have you heard of Married at First Sight? Of course. Glued to the last series. Absolutely glued to it. Addicted.

53:23Davina McCall:So I love Mel Schilling. And she's one of the relationship. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no. Fantastic. And we've had her here. And what she talks about in terms of a loving relationship, the whole gamut of which sex is one, is like 11 kind of life values. and how do you score each other? Where are your values and where are they at? And the more compatible you are, the more your values sort of line up. It's amazing. And we did it with Michael. God, I was terrified. I was terrified. We actually were great together. I mean, I knew that. But I was terrified that it wouldn't. And I would think, I can't be wrong about this.

54:11Davina McCall:I know how I feel about him. It's so funny. but what I think you do is sex isn't just sex sex has a 10 core values as well within it as a subcategory that that's what you need to go through so as well as going through all the values of you know how would you want to raise kids do you want to have kids what about work how do you feel about the way you look you know all of these kind of things are they important to you that sex has a load of subcategories where you need to talk those through.

54:45Cindy Gallop:No, that's exactly why. I regularly say to people, so what are your sexual values? And nobody can ever answer me because we are not taught to think like that.

54:58Davina McCall:I mean, can we talk about some of the possible kind of explorations that couples can have or different relationships can have? Can you talk me through what is polyamorous? Polyamory.

55:12Cindy Gallop:Polyamory. Okay, so polyamory, and by the way, polyamory is different from an open marriage or an open relationship. Yes. Polyamory is specifically about maintaining multiple loving relationships at the same time. And, you know, multiple may be there are three of you in a thruple, you know, or it may be, you know, each of you has several different relationships with several different people. simultaneously. But interestingly, those relationships come about when those people meet someone and discover that this is the feeling that they have for them. It's like any relationship in life. Those so-called unconventional relationships come about because often you have a couple and then one of them meets a third person and feels enormously drawn to them.

56:10Cindy Gallop:And by the way, again, that can be surprising sexuality-wise. A woman may meet another woman, and the first one's been straight all her life and discovers they have a connection. And their partner then meets them, and they discover that between them they have this really interesting dynamic, and they want to form this thruple. The term, by the way, for a polyamorous unit is a polycule. Polycule. You form a polycure of whoever you and your polyamorous partners are.

56:44Davina McCall:And what about then swingers is different because that's not the emotional commitment. Tell me what swinging is.

56:50Cindy Gallop:So swinging is, and again, there is far more swinging and many more swingers than anybody realises. All ages, you know, there are swingers cruisers, there are swingers resorts. Wait, wait, what? Yeah. Swingers cruises? Yes, yep, yep. Well, you can cruise as a swimmer. That sounds like such a great thing, and cruising. Yeah, but I'm on the mailing list for one of these organisations. I've forgotten its name, unfortunately. I can't give them some free advertising. But they take over a cruise ship, and then everybody on the cruise ship is there to swim. Jesus wept! You know, yeah. Sorry, I just got an image of what poolside must be like or dinner.

57:32Cindy Gallop:And there are also, you know, resorts that are swingers' resorts. Yes, I've sort of heard about those a bit. But again, I think the important thing here is, and I'm not a swinger. I'm just promiscuous, by the way. I don't fit into any of these categories.

57:49Davina McCall:Can I just also say, Cindy, that's also kind of brilliant.

57:52Cindy Gallop:I'm not a swinger. I'm just promiscuous. And do you know, I've said for years I want to redefine the term promiscuous because you will note it's only ever applied to women. Oh, my God. Have you ever heard of a promiscuous man? No. No, no. And so I've said, you know, I want to redefine and own that term because it's simply making your own choices sexually as freely as you want to. And why should it have that negative connotation?

58:20Davina McCall:That's slightly blown my mind.

58:22Cindy Gallop:I hadn't even really thought about that. Because actually, you know, I believe everyone should be free to design the relationship model that works for them, which may, by the way, be different at different stages in your life versus society tells us there's this very limited number. the relation models that we are allowed to operate. And we'd all be a lot happier if we could choose freely how many people want to be with at one time. I mean, if we could choose not to be with anybody as opposed to have the pressure to be partnered and coupled up. If we could choose, you know, per polyamory, you know, yes, you can be in love with two people at one time.

58:58Cindy Gallop:You can feel equally strongly about two people at one time, whereas popular culture says, no, no, no, you know, there's the one and that's all. And so I welcome anybody who role models a different way to live your life because so many people would be so much happier if they felt able to step outside the rails and decide what makes them happy.

59:21Davina McCall:the word desire I love how important do you think it is for either you to desire yourself or for somebody you're attracted to to feel their desire and how can we show someone our desire?

59:43Cindy Gallop:So, first of all, I think it's lovely to be desired, you know. And importantly, desire has nothing to do with superficial appearance. It really doesn't. And we can all testify to that. You know, we've all desired people who are not conventionally attractive. You know, we've all had people desire us that is very profound and not to do. with how you look. And so that's the power of being desired when you know that something in them is connecting with something in you and there's a real sexual spark. There's a chemistry that that's fantastic. Also, the ability to desire yourself is wonderful and very, very important.

1:00:30Cindy Gallop:And again, we showcase that on Make Love Not Porn. We have many solo masturbation videos, you know men women trans non-binary make love not porn stars and and those videos have a profound impact on on the people who view them you know because people see what it's like to have a fantastic relationship with yourself yes you know to to desire your own body your own sexuality to celebrate that that is a wonderful wonderful thing to celebrate yourself as a sexual being and it's something that you know again at Make Love at Porn you have to see that to understand the potential for you to do that yourself and our members respond and say you know I watched and I explored myself or I used the same sex toy it was incredible and I think it's so important for people to understand you can and you must and you should desire yourself because you are enormously desirable in yourself and again when you learn to desire yourself you can then translate that into a better connection with a partner

1:01:39Davina McCall:that you desire who desires you well i think people would be amazed at how much of an effect it has on other people when you desire yourself absolutely i was just thinking when you were just talking about that about um making a date to masturbate with yourself yes you know have a bath light a candle, put some music on, get the lighting right.

1:02:03Cindy Gallop:Or even, Damina, because we have plenty of these videos that make love at porn as well. We have, you know, I had a bit of a quiet moment in the office. I thought, I fancy masturbating. Had to find, we have a video of this woman. She went down to the office garage, got in her car, you know, and masturbated there. Oh my God, that's epic. Yeah, we have a ton of, you know, had a moment, thought, let's seize it. Because you're worth it as well. You are worth the pleasure. Why not? Yeah, exactly. Why wouldn't you? Yeah, it's enormous fun. I personally have, you know, on several flights, night flights, when no one was hammering on the loo door, gone into the airplane toilet and masturbated.

1:02:46Cindy Gallop:It's great.

1:02:48Davina McCall:Everybody, take notes.

1:02:53Davina McCall:One final thing I want to finish on is, like, if people want to get the most out of their relationships, or particularly, I think, if you've been with somebody for a very long time, you have a deep love, you have history, you have... How can you reignite something that feels a bit tired? So forgive me if yet again I bring it back to my own venture, but that's why I designed this. But can I tell you something? I don't mind you talking about Make Love Not Porn a lot because there's nothing else like it. No one else is providing what you're providing. Davina, no, absolutely.

1:03:32Cindy Gallop:Thank you for saying that. Because in that scenario, I so recommend watch our videos together. And I recommend that because we got an amazing email from a woman a little while back who went, oh, my God, best$10 a month I ever spent, which is our subscription fee. She said, my husband and I have been married for like 20 odd years. Sex had dwindled to a few times a year. She said, in the first month of Make Love Not Poor, we've had sex eight times. You know, the videos are amazing. Make Love Not Poor is amazing. But here's the very important part, Damina. She said, it's not just the sex. My husband and I now feel more connected, closer, more intimate, and more in love than at any time before in our marriage.

1:04:19Cindy Gallop:And she said at the bottom, thank you for saving my marriage. And that blew me away. But also we've heard that from many other people because, you know, what we do is, you know, we don't just inspire conversations around sex. We talk about, you know, we showcase the power of love, intimacy and human connection. And we can rekindle that in a marriage. And that's fundamental to making sure you have a wonderful time with each other going forward. So it isn't, you know, it's interesting. You know, I think a through line of our conversation today has been sex is never just sex. You know, it's not. And again, because we are so messed up about it, we focus in on sex, but it is inextricable from human connection, from intimacy, from values, from the ability to live life in a way that enables you to really enjoy it, take pleasure from it, form better relationships.

1:05:18Cindy Gallop:you know um we need to be more open about sex but also when we do that we bring it into its rightful place across all of those dimensions in a way that just results in far more human happiness

1:05:33Davina McCall:i think what is interesting is you know often you you hear of um i hear of girlfriends who get the smack on the bum and go you know fancy a shag later and then you're slightly like oh god you know I don't want to but if there had been intimacy or connection a few days before that wouldn't need to happen like that if you don't need to make an appointment no exactly going to bed um Paul you know um um he's gave me this brilliant bit of advice which was foreplay starts after straight after the last time you had sex everything that happens in between yes yes foreplay yeah yeah absolutely you know making a cup of tea in the morning and bringing it or so i on that tip you know i do know that men do watch our chats and um what are the tips and hints that you would give to a man to try or a woman to try and have more understanding a deeper connection with their partner Do you know, it boils down to very simply, men, we welcome you showing emotion and vulnerability and openness.

1:07:00You know, we welcome you talking about, I want to feel closer to you.

1:07:07Cindy Gallop:I'm not sure how. You know, I would really love us to be more connected. Can we talk about how we can do that? I've been feeling that we are feeling detached from each other. Honestly, because let's face it, I feel pretty confident saying most men do not broach conversations like that, do not open up like that. We absolutely welcome that. and also great sex is all about both of you being open and vulnerable with each other and when you start from that place of openness and vulnerability you don't fall into oil grooves, you don't get into the old routine you can really go amazing places when you are willing to be genuinely open and vulnerable around sex and around your relationship and around how you connect.

1:08:04Cindy Gallop:And so I would say literally just open up completely and see what happens.

1:08:11Davina McCall:And also I think being honest, like really honest, even if it makes you vulnerable or puts you in a compromising situation, is incredibly attractive. There's something that makes the other person, whether it's whoever it is in the relationship feel safe when someone is just completely honest there's nowhere to go with the truth and and do you know it's something because I think

1:08:42Cindy Gallop:very few people are completely honest you know um you know to the men out there you know if your partner makes you feel a certain way that you have always thought you would never dream of revealing because it like makes you too vulnerable say that to them you know because they will never have heard that from you before and it will be amazing okay so Cindy we asked our listeners

1:09:07Davina McCall:um for some questions and um they're actually brilliant so how do I ask for what I want in bed

1:09:16Cindy Gallop:I get embarrassed even after 12 years so as as I was saying you ask what you want in bed is seriously the hottest thing out yes you know just actually saying that asking for it i promise you you don't need to feel embarrassed at all because just doing that will land brilliantly and it's

1:09:36Davina McCall:the way you frame it yeah so as a positive exactly you know what i'd love um yeah precisely you know

1:09:44Cindy Gallop:i i just you know the idea of doing this with you is the hottest thing out you know can we give it a

1:09:49Davina McCall:go yes okay brilliant um my husband wants oral sex but i'm not that interested in doing it how can we have this conversation now that question doesn't make clear oral sex which way

1:10:04Cindy Gallop:yes um so that could be oral sex on the husband or it could be oral sex on i'm assuming this is

1:10:11Davina McCall:a woman i mean i would guess like either way that's quite a difficult conversation to have because all sex is quite popular with people. And if you think you're never going to get it, it would be sad.

1:10:23Cindy Gallop:Or you're never going to get to do it, even. No, exactly. And so two responses based on, you know, again, because they've not been specific. First of all, depressingly, because I've also, you know, talked to people about this, there are a number of women where their partner really wants to go down on them or, as we say to make life, give them a lick job, lick job. But they feel self-conscious. They go, ooh, I'm going to smell. I mean, they are. And honestly, men absolutely adore, you know, going down on you. So I would say to her, first of all, absolutely give in to this, you know, because it's a wonderful feeling.

1:11:07Cindy Gallop:He has died to do it. It'll be the biggest turn on in the world for him. You know, just, you know, think about. It's letting go, isn't it? Yes. Yeah, but, you know, think about what in your head is inhibiting you. Yes. You know, are you worried you're going to smoke? You're not, by the way, but you can, like, have a jolly good wash beforehand. Yes. You know, and by the way, he will love your natural smell. I mean, that should not even be a consideration. But just if that is the barrier in your head, you know, identify what you think the barriers are and just let go of them because it's going to be a wonderful feeling.

1:11:39Cindy Gallop:The very important thing, by the way, is that you should direct him. and by the way men adore guidance on the lick job fight.

1:11:47Davina McCall:And I think a lot of people are embarrassed about doing that aren't they? Like I don't want to tell them what to do in case they take offence but if they take offence then they're not the right.

1:11:54Cindy Gallop:No and also they want guidance especially if guidance then makes you calm because the moment you've had a bloody brilliant orgasm through them going down on you they are going to feel like the big man on campus. You know they're going to be ecstatic.

1:12:08Davina McCall:And again like you said the way you do the guidance oh that feels amazing could you move there?

1:12:12Cindy Gallop:Oh, my God, a bit more of that. Yes, yeah. Now, if it is, you know, your husband would like you to give him a blowjob and you don't fancy that. Again, you know, I would ask yourself what in your head is preventing that? Because it's a lovely thing to do with someone you love. You know, it will give him enormous pleasure. It is very pleasurable. What are the blockages? You know, because it's really important that you do get rid of those blockages. I remember one of my partners telling me that I was extremely good on the blowjob front. And obviously one loves to hear this. And I said to him, oh, really?

1:12:54Cindy Gallop:Oh, thank you. So what exactly makes me so good at this? He went enthusiasm. Gusto. Yeah, amazing. And so it's really important, actually, when you give your husband a blowjob, you really have to do it with enthusiasm and gusto.

1:13:09Davina McCall:To not look like you're not enjoying it.

1:13:10Cindy Gallop:No, no, exactly. Which means getting rid again of what is it in your head because he'll love it. Yes. You know, and when you go about it with enthusiasm and gusto, you'll love it. Yes. So just get rid of those mental barriers.

1:13:23Davina McCall:That's a brilliant answer. I've been single for most of my 50s. I'm ready to start dating again. But where do I even begin?

1:13:32Cindy Gallop:So, do you know, I really recommend, and I know that, you know, I'm a big fan of cougar dating apps historically. But I would say today I encourage people to actively think about how they go about dating IRL. You know, literally go to places with lots of other people, you know, go to the pub, go to a coffee shop. And the key thing is be open. OK, so be open and start conversations with someone you might want to date. And again, I'm assuming if this is a woman, I'm assuming she may be straight, but she may not be. So I really advocate for, I just think it's so much easier to get a sense of somebody when you meet them IRL in the first instance.

1:14:26Cindy Gallop:Yes. Be able to have a bit of a conversation, see how it goes. The dating apps these days, a lot of people are defecting. and by the way that is because the dating apps are driven by you know the people behind them who want to keep you on there for as long as possible as opposed to the ideal which is getting you off them and so I think there are many opportunities around you if you actually take them you know I always say I want on my gravestone she retted the things she did not the things she didn't do see someone you like ask them out okay all they can do is say no and at least you know you tried you know and i think you'd find many more people around you are really open to being approached and having a nice conversation being asked if they'd like to you know get a drink

1:15:14Davina McCall:sometime than you would have thought i was thinking like is there space for there to be a i'm available finger ring you know that you look down at some not that they're married because a lot of people don't wear wedding rings but that they've got like i'm i'm up for dating ring yeah

1:15:31Cindy Gallop:Yeah, that's IRL.

1:15:34Davina McCall:Yes. I love the fact that I had to ask you what that meant last time. I've been using it ad infinitum since then. Thanks, Cindy, for making me look cool to my kids, IRL. Okay, that's great advice. Thank you. Now, this is a good one. I think I've got a fetish. How do I bring this up with my partner without scaring them off?

1:15:54Cindy Gallop:So, again, the fetish, obviously, that could apply to a very broad range of scenarios. I think that depending on what it is it is usually relatively easy to find a depiction of whatever it is in a movie somewhere you know I suggest movie night at home you know watching Fifty Shades of Grey or whatever else it may be and off the back of that saying wow you know that really turned me on you know let's give it a go.

1:16:26Davina McCall:Yes, okay, that's a much easier way to broach it, isn't it, if you've just seen something.

1:16:31Cindy Gallop:Yeah, but I mean, seen something where it's happening and it's really hot and, you know, all of that, yeah.

1:16:38Davina McCall:Cindy, I just want to say thank you. I've loved talking to you again and you've given us all so many more brilliant insights. Thank you so, so much.

1:16:50Cindy Gallop:Well, Davina, right back at you. I love you. Right back at you.

1:17:15Cindy Gallop:Rinse knows that greatness takes time, but so does laundry. So Rinse will take your laundry and hand deliver it to your door expertly cleaned. And you can take the time pursuing your passions. Time once spent sorting and waiting, folding and queuing, now spent challenging and innovating and pushing your way to greatness. So pick up the Irish flute or those calligraphy pens or that daunting Beef Wellington recipe card and leave the laundry to us. Rinse. It's time to be great.