Is Your Purpose Written in the Stars? How the Universe Can Guide You | Dame Maggie Aderin

10:32Davina McCall:I went to see Brian Cox the other day. Yes. And the first half, I was like... Oh. Like, what? Oh, my God, I'm trying to remember all of this. I thought I should have taken a notebook and pen. But then the second half, he put it into practice. Yes. What it all meant. Yeah. And what it did and why. Yeah. And I thought, God, this is it. This is so interesting. And that's what you do. I think this is what you explain. You explain things to us in a way that makes us think, oh, OK, I understand. Oh, that's the hope. Yes. Yes.

11:02Dame Maggie Aderin:As a science communicator.

11:04Davina McCall:For kids, all of these brilliant, brilliant books that you've done. For kids, they are amazing, Maggie. no it's such a gift it's a legacy this because the thing is i have to write it because i'm

11:16Dame Maggie Aderin:dyslexic yeah i have to write it as i would speak to someone about it and i think i want to find those hooks and okay i found this hard so let's put it this way or there's a nice analogy and trying to make it accessible because it is glorious and it's horrible that people are missing out on it yes what was like made you go no this is my passion yes I think there's another things one of my always say um to everybody I speak to have a crazy dream the crazier the dream the better and my crazy dream has been literally reaching for the stars I want to get out there

11:52Davina McCall:both physically and metaphorically but explain to people what your dream is because I love this so

11:56Dame Maggie Aderin:much so all my life it started with the clangers and i fell in love with the clangers and i just touch you again buggy the clangers what was the noise they made like yes they speak a whistle but i don't understand we knew exactly what they were saying totally yes because it's a swanny whistle and i think it's the intonation or something but they're speaking a different language and i understood it perfectly and so as a child i wanted to go and visit the clangers and the next thing i wanted to do was I'm a lunatic so I thought yeah next stop the moon but also yeah I wanted to Yuri Gagarin the first person to space who I share a birthday with both born on the 9th of March he died the year I was born on my daughter's birthday it was really so you know we're talking about coincidences and links so it's all very weird but um but yes and so he went in into the first person to go into space see the curvature of the earth that was my dream visit the moon visit the clangers not was it's true yeah you could still do that oh no no i haven't given up at all yeah yeah good it's more like a retirement plan yeah yeah yeah i mean with the world the way

13:03Davina McCall:that it's going and i and i we can go back to this but it could happen right in your lifetime that you will be a space tourist yes or that someone and we should just put a message out there if anybody does know anybody at NASA obviously Maggie has been asking for quite a long time if she could go to the moon so you know Katy Perry went into space it's like come on

13:27Dame Maggie Aderin:she's not a dame actually I do know the head of science at NASA because we studied at university together we're both in the same year but um and actually NASA have said because we had the Apollo missions yes which sent people to the moon and it was you know 12 white guys from America But see now with Artemis So Artemis was the sister of Apollo

13:46Davina McCall:Yes let's explain what Artemis is Because this is really exciting It's beggar

13:52Dame Maggie Aderin:Isn't it? It is because we're going back to the moon How long is it since we've done that? Because the last time people landed on the moon Was 1972 So it has And it's been so long And so they're sending people back to the moon With the Artemis programme So we had Artemis 1 where they actually sent an uncrewed vehicle into space. It orbited the moon and came back. The only passenger on board was Shaun the Sheep, who I'm very jealous of. How come he gets to go? Shaun! I met him. The actual sheep. Did you actually? Get off Shaun. Okay, I was a little jealous. I think I behaved relatively well. But Artemis 2 is virtually happening almost as we speak.

14:37Davina McCall:I mean, it's what, in the next few days, isn't it?

14:39Dame Maggie Aderin:So they have a few launch windows. Yes. And the next one is in the next few days. Now, there's a cold weather. I was looking at it on the way here. There's a cold weather snap. So it was the 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th. And the 6th and the 7th have gone. So the next is 8th of February or the 9th of February. But then there's another sort of four days in March. And so these are the launch windows. Okay. And yes. And so because Apollo missions, there's 12 white guys, Americans to the moon. Artemis is saying that they want to mix it up. So get the first woman to the moon, the first person of a different ethnicity, the first non-American, first person called Maggie.

15:18Dame Maggie Aderin:I'm just saying. Oh, Maggie. But it's your crazy dreams. Yeah. And why not?

15:25Davina McCall:I love the fact that you've said that crazy dreams are what have got you here.

15:31Dame Maggie Aderin:Yeah.

15:31Davina McCall:Because I loved listening to you talk about that. And you know what was funny? when I saw you had looked to Ikigai for inspiration and purpose and reason and, you know, that you were aiming for that kind of balance.

15:46Dame Maggie Aderin:Yes, all together.

15:48Davina McCall:That I bought this book from home and I put it up there. And I was like, oh, got to get this down to show Maggie. Can you explain what Ikigai is? It's a Japanese kind of philosophy, isn't it? It is, yes.

16:02Dame Maggie Aderin:The Japanese philosophy for life fulfillment. And it's a diagram. And it's made up of four circles. Yes. And I'm almost going, so it's what the world needs, what you can get paid for, what you're good at and what you love. Those represent the four circles. And when you bring all those four circles together, if you can combine all those four different things right in the center, in the overlap, that is ikigai. Where you have life fulfillment. because you do what you love, you're good at it, you can get paid for it, and the world needs it. And it's like, whoa, that is the goal. You're there.

16:41Davina McCall:Oh. No, aren't you? The world needs it, you're happy, you can make money from it. Like, it's incredible that, Maggie, that you've done it. Isn't it?

16:53Dame Maggie Aderin:Yeah, I'm trying to move closer to the centre, but yes, I do. I feel like you're there. Actually, but. It's amazing. But I feel, it's funny, I used to say I feel lucky but someone was saying but yes it's not about luck because we effectively make our own luck yes by looking for opportunities by driving but i think it's having the vision that okay this is possible because i think especially when i was younger i get oh no well that that can't happen but you know what if you know why not i think that's the more of the attitude especially as

17:21Davina McCall:women one of the things that i love is that you are very inspiring as a woman um to be doing everything that you're doing which I think you know we've really not had that many women in space science and and being watching them deliver or inform us or educate us or and the way that you teach and I think this is to do with being dyslexic is you do try and drill it down to the simplest possible explanation so it isn't something that is only accessible to extremely intelligent nerdy scientists for everyday people um like me it means that um it is accessible and i can understand it and get what you're talking about and get on board that's so inspiring um but you are that person for other people now.

18:21Davina McCall:You know how lovely is that? Yeah, but it's mind-boggling. But it's big. It's big what you've achieved. It's like a massive... So this Ikigai thing is like, you know, you see something and you have a crazy dream, but your crazy dream has done so much for others. You know, like it's done a lot for you, but it's done a lot for other people too. Gosh, thank you.

18:49Dame Maggie Aderin:And it's funny because, yeah, I see it as that sort of, you know, the tenuous, shiny thing in the sky, which I'm trying to sort of reach. But if it opens up sort of something for other people, then that's just, it just feels like magic. But it's funny, sometimes, actually, one of the things I realise, I think I'm more determined than I was aware of. And sort of a drive.

19:12Davina McCall:What's made you realise that?

19:15Dame Maggie Aderin:Partly writing the book and realising, because one of the things, I love public speaking. And I go out to schools a lot. And I do corporate stuff as well, which is lovely because it pays for the other stuff. But I was assuming 650 ,000 people in the last 21 years.

19:30Davina McCall:I read that. Yeah. No, but that is, like, insane.

19:35Dame Maggie Aderin:Isn't it? I always say, I'm knackered.

19:41Dame Maggie Aderin:Mega. But no, I love it. And the thing is, it just clocks up. I'm really lucky. I do something called GCSE Science Live. And so last, actually this Monday, I was in the Brighton Dome, speaking to probably 1 ,500 kids. And the thing is, you know, speaking to kids is great because you know if you sort of wander off or if you don't keep it fresh or engaging, then the phones come out, the noise levels, and you just get sort of swamped with a level of noise. They're a amazing barometer, aren't they? They are. and so what works for kids can work for anyone and so I love doing that but I love getting out there and speaking to people and so yeah the fact it makes a difference just just is the icing on

20:21Davina McCall:the cake how did you get involved with the telescopes oh the big telescopes oh yeah oh

20:30Dame Maggie Aderin:in terms of telescopes there are some glorious telescopes out there so we have different types of telescopes so there are earth-based telescopes so telescopes that sit on the ground and they're You can do radio, but I've been mainly working on visible telescopes. So stuff we see with our eyes, this is the light that these telescopes pick up. And they're great telescopes with great names like the VLT, the Very Large Telescope. We're so boring, we can't come up with any of this.

20:57Davina McCall:The VLT. Is that a thing? It's real. The Very Large Telescope. Oh, my God, that is actually hilarious. That's what we call it. Oh, my God, that is brilliant.

21:07Dame Maggie Aderin:but see now we've got the next generation so we've had the VLT about 25 years but now we're building the ELT the extremely no shut up

21:17Davina McCall:that's got to be a joke is that not a joke is that true oh my god I love this what's the next one going to be

21:24Dame Maggie Aderin:see we do have a concept telescope which we haven't built I hope to see it in my lifetime but we call that the OWL and that stands for the overwhelmingly large telescope

21:37Dame Maggie Aderin:We're not making this up. This is real. I mean, I don't know if we just lack an abigination. We've just got a real good sense of humour.

21:45Davina McCall:Oh, my God. I thought it was going to be like the JLT,

21:51Dame Maggie Aderin:jolly large telescope. Yes, we do have things like that. So those are ground-based telescopes and they usually build them in sort of a, if you're in the southern hemisphere, because of the orientation of the Earth, you look into the heart of our Milky Way galaxy so our Milky Way Gatsby hundreds of billions of stars each star a sun like our sun and so now we're finding planets going around those stars and in the southern hemisphere you look into the heart of our galaxy so you see many more stars in the night sky and so we often build these telescopes in the southern hemisphere but on sort of mountains in Atacama Desert, it's driest place on earth up in the mountains the sky's there I spent quite a bit of time down there

22:31Davina McCall:What did you see?

22:33Dame Maggie Aderin:Well, first of all Yeah, so they build these telescopes on beautiful locations. So you're up on a mountain, geraised place on Earth, so very little atmosphere. And so you look up and you just see the Milky Way. And it does look like a band of milk across the sky. Amazing. And you can see all the... In the Southern Hemisphere, you see the small and large Magellanic Cloud, which are companion galaxies to us.

22:57Davina McCall:And just so many stars. Wait, wait, wait. Just explain that.

23:01Dame Maggie Aderin:Ooh.

23:01Davina McCall:The cloud.

23:02Dame Maggie Aderin:Yeah.

23:02Davina McCall:Full of planets.

23:04Dame Maggie Aderin:Full of stars. Stars. Yeah, so it's like small galaxy clusters. And you can see them from the southern hemisphere. And it's just sort of a... There's things you can see from the northern hemisphere, like the Andromeda galaxy. And we are... Our Milky Way and the Andromeda galaxy are on a collision course. What? They will... Billions of years' time. Oh, billions of years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everything's on an astronomical scale. So yeah, billions of years. But yeah, they will collide together. And form a super galaxy. And when this happens, when you think of colliding, you think of crashing and things like that.

23:40Dame Maggie Aderin:But because stars are so well spaced, so our star, the sun, and the next door neighbour star is Approxima Centauri, 40 trillion kilometres between them. So when galaxies collide, there's a few collisions, but most of all, it's like a wonderful dance. The gravity pulls them together and they swirl around each other, forming a new galaxy. How many times has that happened or is it happening all the time? about because the thing is i mentioned okay um our um local our sun is a local star about 200 billion stars in our galaxy each one like our sun with planets going around one of the things that the hubble space telescope taught us is in the whole of the universe there are hundreds of billions of galaxies so it's a billion and so yeah these collisions and things like that we can see what's happening in our galaxy by looking out there and seeing what's happening to other galaxies

24:29Davina McCall:I mean, I know you've had a chat with someone much, much more famous than me about this. And I'd love to hear about that. But I want to talk to you about the likelihood of there being life out there. Look, there's hundreds of billions. Yes. There must be life.

24:51Dame Maggie Aderin:One of the things I love is how much hubris we have as humans. because, oh yes, I was writing an article saying, who owns space? I was like, what do you mean, who owns space? We are, I was saying, it's like an atom in my foot saying, oh, I'm sentient and I own this body. We are so insignificant. So insignificant, yeah. And so, but yeah, as you say, it's a numbers game. We are finding planets going around most of the stars we see and there are billions upon billions, billions in our galaxy and billions of galaxies. so why would life just occur here? I think the probability is high although the distances between our star and the next door neighbour star and all the other stars in our galaxy let alone other galaxies are vast I mean The idea of being able to travel Yes, from ours to someone else, so 40 trillion kilometres to the next door neighbour star and using current technology that would take 76 ,000 years

25:50Davina McCall:But is quantum travel Ah, yes.

25:56Dame Maggie Aderin:So there's something called quantum entanglement. Yes. Where you can sort of have a particle and they are sort of synced together and then you can separate them. And anything that happens to this particle also happens to that particle. And so, but when you separate them, you could separate them. Yeah. 40 trillion kilometers, for instance. So send one of them to our next door neighbor star system. And yet what happens to that one, we will pick up here. So it's like a receiver almost. and things in i think quite but you're in good company um ironstein said he didn't understand quantum mechanics because in the macro world the world we live in things you know you push that something happens in the quantum world it's all about probability where you're going to find things and we are using that in computing and ai and it's just opening up a whole heap of possibilities and i find it exciting slightly terrifying but exciting at the same time what do you find terrifying about it so when we're talking about actually what the thing i find terrifying is the human element because we have a habit of taking things so amazing things and utilizing them for the wrong thing yes yes we first went into space because people were trying to bomb each other yes space came out of a really dark time it was only that we discovered oh my god we can go into space and we can do things out here and so it opened up a different opportunity but yes Generally speaking, we are not always driven by the best motivation.

27:23Dame Maggie Aderin:No. But it scares me because we are taking our first footfalls into space. We're going back to the moon. And we're talking about using the moon to go to Mars and maybe asteroid mining. But the thing is, we have to get it right. Because there's so many times where we're starting that journey. And if we don't do it sustainably, if we don't do it for all of humanity, if we don't think about the bigger picture, we will go off on the wrong foot. and we'll continue on that trend. So it's incredibly, there's so much happening and it's so exciting. But yes, let's get it right.

27:55Davina McCall:Let's get it right.

27:56Dame Maggie Aderin:Yes.

27:57Davina McCall:And we've not done a brilliant job at getting these huge discoveries or right in the past. I think we owe it to humanity after everything we've been through in the past, I don't know, 80 years or...

28:11Dame Maggie Aderin:Yes.

28:11Davina McCall:You know, it's important and it's all going to happen really fast. It is.

28:15Dame Maggie Aderin:Yes. Yes. And it's like a runaway train. When we go off on the wrong track, we keep on going. But this is a moment to me to think, okay, let's get this right. Let's get the legislation in place. So it's, yes, it's good for everybody.

28:29Davina McCall:Yes. That was always the hope. so with with like space travel um how far are we do you think from like being able to do something like go to a planet trillions of miles away i mean is that going to happen in our lifetime

28:49Dame Maggie Aderin:oh i hope so i think it might right i'm definitely glass half full sort of yes yes i can see that i

28:56Davina McCall:Quite apparent.

28:58Dame Maggie Aderin:But the thing is, it's challenging. And there is a wonderful project called Breakthrough Starshot. And I mentioned that to the next door neighbour star, out of the 300 billion in our galaxy, using current technology will take 76 ,000 years. Yes, which is a bit of a downer. But with Breakthrough Starshot, they're using something called a solar sail. And you can actually shine laser light. So laser light is light photons. and you can accelerate it in space to about a fifth of the speed of light. Wow. Walk factor a quarter. For any Trekkies. But yeah, you can accelerate it and it will just take 20 years to get there.

29:34Dame Maggie Aderin:Wow. But the thing is, the thing you send out there, it has to be incredibly light. So it weighs about one gram. Okay. One gram is about...

29:43Davina McCall:How on earth would weigh one gram?

29:46Dame Maggie Aderin:Well, a very small chip. Chip, yeah. Yes. And that will be at the heart and it will sort of send the solar sail to the next on a star system. And then you can actually see. And the thing is, we might be able to get the answer. Is there life out there? But the thing is, because it's sending something so small, I know. It's funny. I think it's too many thoughts. As humans, we don't want to be alone. We want to find life. There's lots of research that has been done.

30:11Davina McCall:What's so funny, because we're cup half full people, we're assuming that we find life and they're lovely. I know. And they're going to go, hey, come over. Come and grab a tea. Have some of our technology, yes. We'd love to meet you. Yeah, like, what are you? Although, you know, nobody knows. No. But this is, I think that's what's so exciting, the great unknown. And, you know, the universe is that.

30:37Dame Maggie Aderin:Yes. Oh, yes. The ultimate exploration.

30:40Davina McCall:How much do we know about the universe? Okay.

30:43Dame Maggie Aderin:One of my favourite examples is that we only know what 6 % of the universe is actually made of. so we see stars I know, I know, 94 % we have absolutely no idea and I love to tell this to the kids because I say, you know, we need help, come and help us because we don't know what it is and the thing is, we know it's there because its gravity has an effect and so we can see the movement of galaxies for instance and they seem to have more mass in them than we can actually visualise or we can actually interact with so we know it's there, but we don't know what it's made of so we call it dark energy or dark matter Dark matter, yeah.

31:18Dame Maggie Aderin:Dark matter is just a euphemism because we have no idea what it is. It's a gas. Yeah, it's dark matter. Yeah, it's out there. We don't know what it is. It's dark stuff. And so I love that fact. BBC. Yes. And so the fact that we don't know what 96 % of the universe is made of shows and things, but it's not surprising. We are on a tiny planet going around a fairly insignificant star. start and so and we're looking but we are doing that but we're looking up and trying to understand and trying to be part of this amazing cosmos and to me that's just exhilarating what do you think

31:54Davina McCall:is going to happen and what would you like to happen over the next 10 years in terms of discovery

32:02Dame Maggie Aderin:realistically okay yes okay oh see 10 years is quite tight um but uh i would love to get confirmation of uh so sometimes we call say we have bio signatures so and we look at these exoplanets going around the distant stars we see in the night sky and we can they're very hard to detect because they don't give out light and so we can see the effect they have on their local star so sometimes if they go in front of the star they'll dim the light from the star if they're quite massive as they go around the star the star will wobble and we can see the star oh wow but what's really clever is sometimes um if it goes in front of uh the star and it has an atmosphere a tiny fraction of the starlight will pass through the atmosphere and we can work out what's in the atmosphere yes and by doing that sometimes we see what we think is a biomarker an indication of life life as we know it right but it's an indication that um there is some some process happening on the planet which might be biological and so we are finding one or two exoplanets out there with these biomarkers and with things like breakthrough star shot if you could fly past we might get an indication that there might be it could be a whole civilization i mean what's well and also when there

33:17Davina McCall:is that many planets and that many galaxies like it just would stand to reason that we are not

33:24Dame Maggie Aderin:alone and so it'd be nice to get confirmation or sort of firmer confirmation of that in the next few years yeah and I just chip away at some of these you know sort of you know this dark matter dark energy stuff we've swept under the carpet because we don't know try to get an indication of what that is but then you were talking about quantum I mean quantum's so exciting it is and the possibilities and yeah these entanglements and things like that and then there's dimensions we live in three dimensions and time so up down left right you're two fro yes three actions and time but there's some theories and imply that there are other dimensions what do you mean by That our senses are limited to a certain understanding.

34:04Davina McCall:Oh, we can only handle what we can see. And that there might be other things in this room, but our eyes aren't letting us see it because it's too much.

34:13Dame Maggie Aderin:Well, they're in another dimension. There's a wonderful book called Flatland, and it's about people who just live in two dimensions.

34:20Davina McCall:Everybody go get pen and paper, write that down right now, Flatland.

34:23Dame Maggie Aderin:Yes. And so these guys live on, let's say, a sheet of paper. And if they come across each other, they have to go round that way. And then one day a sphere visits flatland and it starts off as a pinprick. It grows into a circle and then disappears. What was that? Because it's a three-dimensional object in a two-dimensional space. Oh, my God, that's just fried my brain. We could be three. We live in three dimensions with time. But maybe there's four dimensions in five. beings that are amongst us but living in other dimensions and if we could tap into those dimensions maybe we could transcend time there's all sorts of things sorry i don't know how you

35:05Davina McCall:even function no wonder you're you're an insomnia i'm not surprised you're not bloody sleeping i'm not going to go to sleep tonight because of you i'm going to be like squinting trying to see on like another dimension.

35:23Davina McCall:This episode is brought to you by Airbnb. Now, a few weeks ago, I told you about Kat from my team who recently hosted her house on Airbnb. And while we were chatting, she was asking me where I'd like to go and I'd love to go to Thailand. And guess what? She's going there. Honestly, she's making me jealous now that she is going to go to Thailand to celebrate her 10-year anniversary with her partner, Blaze. She's going to visit an ethical animal sanctuary in Chiang Mai. I mean, it sounds unbelievable, but she is hosting her house on Airbnb, but she's co-hosting. Her co-host will respond to any of the guest messages.

35:59Davina McCall:They will greet them at the property when they arrive, all of it. And as Kat said to me, whenever you're away, look, your home just sits empty, right? So why wouldn't you make a bit of extra pocket money on the side if you can? So if you're heading away and you want someone to help you, check out Airbnb's co-host network. Find a co-host at airbnb.co.uk slash host. When you want your spring break to feel like... And your kid's pool day to feel like... And your hotel bed to feel like... Ooh, and room service to feel like... Because at Hilton, hospitality feels like... Your cabana's ready. Would you like fresh towels?

36:47Davina McCall:It matters where you stay.

36:51Dame Maggie Aderin:Book now at Hilton.com. Hilton, for the stay. This episode is brought to you by Nespresso. Introducing Virtuo Up, the latest in a long line of innovation from Nespresso. It's innovation you can touch, sense, and taste in every single cup. With a three-second start, easy open lever and dedicated brew over ice button, it's even easier to enjoy your coffee your way. Sip for yourself. Shop Virtuo up exclusively at Nespresso.com.

37:24Davina McCall:I think actually your family story and your beginnings were quite unique in themselves in that there were four sisters. Yes. And you were born in the UK. Yes. but your parents were from Nigeria and when you were four, I think it was, your family split up. Yes. And how did that end up splitting the sisters up? Can you talk me through that?

37:52Dame Maggie Aderin:Yes. And so I have two elder sisters and then there's myself and my younger sister, Gracie, and Sue and Howell, the two elder sisters. When the split happened, this is sort of the 1970s, early 1970s, and usually I think the custody would have probably gone to my mum but I think my mum wasn't keen on having all of us I think four kids and so it was decided that my two elder sisters would stay with my dad and me and my younger sister my younger sister was probably about maybe a few months old yeah, would sort of go with my mum and so yes, the split happened it was quite interesting because I was asked at that age so I was four years old, didn't really know what was going on

38:33Davina McCall:I mean imagine that, like asking her for your... Imagine a four-year-old. Yes. Such a difficult decision.

38:39Dame Maggie Aderin:Yeah. And although I was young, I knew that whatever I said, I was going to hurt someone. Someone, yeah. But my mum was moving into a sweet shop. And I think that did sort of entice me a little. I can't honestly. It is embarrassing to say, but the idea of sweets are on tap.

38:58Davina McCall:I think I would be exactly the same. I'd have done exactly the same thing. Oh, that is so funny, isn't it? this idea of hurting someone is very difficult yes um and interestingly my mum didn't get custody of me when my parents split up and it was about early 70s and it was very rare yeah and quite shocking I think wasn't it yes were you aware that you and your sisters had been split up like was that a painful separation for you at the time or were you not really conscious of it and I think

39:30Dame Maggie Aderin:I think I was aware and I was, I think we were quite a close-knit family. At the age of four, and that's writing the book, it's all a bit nebulous. You're trying to remember and it's mainly about feelings and gut reactions. But I think we were quite close and I remember you, Sue and Hal, and I'd play along. And so I was aware of the split and aware of not being in contact as regularly. So there was a wrench there. um but um yes but um uh but yes that there was the enticements of sweets i was with gracie and i was closest to gracie and so the fact that we made a sort of little unit

40:09Davina McCall:often with four i think there's a two and a two yes you know you you end up closer to to one sibling um and then surprisingly then you did end up living with your dad all four of you what was What was that like and how did that happen?

40:26Dame Maggie Aderin:Yes, it was a bit of dynamics. My father didn't feel that we should be split. He felt that he had four daughters and our four daughters should stay together. And so when mum was given custody of Gracie and I, he wasn't really happy with that. And he wanted to get us all back together. And also my mum had a new beau in her life. And this was a vicar. I suppose he was supposed to be quite a young vicar at that stage. Grown-ups always look at us.

40:57Davina McCall:Isn't that funny? It's so funny. You see pictures, you think... Also, you think houses were enormous. Yeah, actually. And it's tiny. Like, go back and go, what?

41:09Dame Maggie Aderin:And so Barry was in the picture, and Mum was going out with Barry. And I think sometimes... I think they used to do this in the 70s, but she'd go out and she'd leave Gracie and I, so my younger sister and I, at home. Alone, yeah. How old would you have been then? See, four, five. So it's that sort of age. And Gracie, yeah. And see, I think in the 70s, people did that sort of thing. And also, I think one of the problems is I'm an insomniac. And so I just don't sleep. And so usually, you know, you put the kids to bed and they'd sleep. And then your parents might go out. Yes. But not me. And so I'm wandering around the house.

41:46Dame Maggie Aderin:And so my dad was saying, well, you know, this isn't right. And yeah, if you're wandering around the house, then we need to do something about this. And so he said he'd sort of try and get us to custody. And he did this by staging a runaway. And so I was four years old and I still remember being outside, wearing my Womble slippers and being in my pyjamas. Did you have Womble slippers too?

42:14Davina McCall:Seriously. It's so nice. Because you have memory. It's so good. I love this so much. Honestly. Thank you. Oh, no, thank you. Yeah, Womble slippers. You get that. And also the stage in the runaway is so funny. I ran away, like, probably in Womble slippers as well, to the gate.

42:37Dame Maggie Aderin:It's a feature. If you're going to run away, wear your Womble slippers.

42:40Davina McCall:Yeah. God.

42:42Dame Maggie Aderin:So what happened? So my dad sort of planned it. next time my mum goes out and I'm at home alone with Gracie, that I should give him a call. And I felt very grown up. I was going to use the phone. I'm four years old and I can use the phone because I'm sophisticated. And so I called him up. And then Sue and Hal were going to come round and say, oh, mum's not in. I'm going to take Gracie and Maggie back to my dad's place. But my dad was waiting around the corner in the car. And so we started doing this. But mum came home early. and so somehow I was outside hiding behind a bush with the Womble Slippers with Gracie and pretending, shh, quiet Gracie and it was all like a big game but then Sue and Hal came out after speaking to mum and we were whisked to dad's place and that was it, custody chain

43:32Davina McCall:and never again living with your mum after that moment?

43:35Dame Maggie Aderin:No so when I was older we moved to Hastings and lived with her there with Barry the vicar but yes that was and that was years later.

43:43Davina McCall:So you've had a lot of, I mean, what I think is interesting, and I know you're going to get this because you and I are the same generation, that what we now know to be a life of instability and unsettled, it was quite common for people to have completely chaotic lives and be pulled from Pulitzer Post because I don't think anybody Have you thought about the impact on children?

44:09Dame Maggie Aderin:No.

44:10Davina McCall:Really? It's funny. No, no. It's like, they'll be fine. Yeah.

44:13Dame Maggie Aderin:And it's funny, to a certain extent, I think, as kids, we are. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because this is our norm. Yes. And it's funny because writing the book, I suddenly thought, this really was a bit weird. Yeah. But I'd never really sort of, you know, cottoned on to that. Yes. It just seems, oh, that was my childhood. It was different from other people's childhood. But looking back, you think, you know, people wouldn't do that now.

44:33Davina McCall:No, and it's funny because my heart's slightly breaking for you, but at the same time I can see that you are grey. But look at you.

44:43Dame Maggie Aderin:Yeah, isn't it funny? And I think it makes us stronger. Yes. And so I don't regret it. If I had my time again, I like this path and the way that life has, it's like a marble going down a run and it takes you up different paths. It's been weird and chaotic, but I like where I've ended up. So it's been worth it.

45:06Davina McCall:Well, look at you.

45:06Dame Maggie Aderin:You know, it's made you you, right? Yes. And you, you, yes. But yes, I hadn't realised that you had a sort of, I like to call it a tumultuous past.

45:15Davina McCall:It was just a very interesting childhood. But I also don't think I would change a thing because I like me now. Yes. And I might not like me now if I didn't have the childhood that I had. Yes. um i just quickly want to say um because you you've mentioned it a couple of times that this book is out and um star child my life under the night sky but this is actually you've written lots of books helping people to learn and educational pieces but this is the story of your life um you know we were talking about it it being a time when you've really gone back in your memory and looked at things and how um it was slightly hazy at times and you couldn't quite like you were only four you know when this was happening but how nice was it to deep dive into

46:07Dame Maggie Aderin:your life rather than the night sky like it felt so different yeah it's funny because as a child I liked to sort of a I felt I was very empathetic and I still am and very emotional and I tried to keep sort of your sort of keep it under wraps yes keep it under control and uh and and I think I've lived quite a bit of my life that way sort of okay keep it under control you know sort of get a grip and diving into the past you realize oh my goodness and there were emotions sort of welling up and almost overwhelming me and uh and it was a nice experience a cathartic experience and to know that they were there and almost to take the lid off and sort of peer inside whoa and so yes I think it was but also very very painful and sometimes I'm uh I'd go through something and I'll think oh is that right or and feelings of guilt and and not so much regret but some sometimes maybe I could have handled things better in in various stages of my life but that's also nice

47:16Davina McCall:to look at and to be able to take a strong person to say actually do you know what I could have handled that better you know it's not just I'm a victim this all happened to me it's like oh I hang on a minute did you did you do anything like make amends to anybody or from writing it or kind of think oh do you know what I want to get in contact with this person and

47:38Dame Maggie Aderin:look at something again or I think mainly my mum because I ran away from home twice and both going from my mum to my father. And I wanted her to really know that I truly loved her and I love her now.

47:53Davina McCall:That that meant a lot.

47:54Dame Maggie Aderin:Yeah, I think so. And we had a sort of few moments where we'd sort of share things. And also, so I ran away the first time, then lived with her in Hastings, then sort of ran away again. And that's the time I think I could have handled things better. I have a habit of covering my ears and going, la, la, la, la, la. And just thinking about the road ahead.

48:14Davina McCall:I think we all do that. of that sometimes.

48:16Dame Maggie Aderin:Yes. But also, I think sometimes it's looking back and thinking at the time, this was probably the best decision out of a... It's handling it. Yes. But yes, and so I think we've reconnected and I like that. And also, sometimes I thought I was totally out of contact with her. And she found some letters I had written to her. Are they cute? No, no, they are so nerdy. Dearest mother, I do hope you're looking after yourself. Oh, my goodness.

48:44Davina McCall:But you know, wasn't that lovely we'd write letters yeah yes and something that your mum could keep in a bedside

48:50Dame Maggie Aderin:table reference and look at yes because if it was an email or something like that or whatsapp wouldn't have been there now and so yeah and I wasn't even aware of them but then you know the

49:00Davina McCall:hating oh yeah I remember doing these um so how did you go about um because I know that you So there was a choice for you, quite young, actually, to stay in the UK and go into boarding school education. Yes. Or to go back to Nigeria. And Gracie went back to Nigeria. She did, yes. So what made you choose here and what made you choose to go to boarding school? Because how old were you then? About six. Six or seven. Maggie, like it's the kind of thing as a mother that would seem so hard to let your kid go. But you wanted to go because it meant you could stay here. Yeah.

49:46Dame Maggie Aderin:But my sisters had gone before me. So Hal was the pioneer. And she was the next one up. And the sister.

49:53Davina McCall:How much older was she?

49:55Dame Maggie Aderin:So Hal is probably four, five years older than me. So quite like a big girl. Oh, yes. That's it. So far more sophisticated. Okay. I loved reading. And I used to emulate her, including her writing. Did you? Which, as a dyslexic, was terrible for me. It threw in all sorts of errors in my... But yes, because Hal was sharp, sophisticated, clever. And so I wanted to be like her. And she got a scholarship to go to a boarding school. So I thought, oh. And then Sue followed and went to boarding school too. And I thought, oh. And so I was next in line. And so I was quite young. So Sue and Hal both went into secondary school, but because I was younger, I could go in at sort of primary level.

50:38Dame Maggie Aderin:And it just seemed like an adventure. Although I knew I was going to miss my family. Yes. Especially my dad, because we were so close. Were you? Oh, yeah. One day he said that, he said, I said, Daddy, are there any pictures of you when you were a child? He said, oh, yes, I've got one upstairs. Come upstairs. So we both ran up the stairs. and he sat me in front of the mirror and said, that's what I look like, just like you. And I cried and I was so proud. I was so proud. I mean, it got embarrassing. I started sort of shaving my hair to try and look like him.

51:17Davina McCall:It's nothing like it.

51:19Dame Maggie Aderin:I know. Daughter, daughter, daddy. Yes. Yes.

51:23Davina McCall:Also, what a great dad to do that. I know. Actually, it was magical. Oh, my God, that is so magical. What a sensitive and beautiful way to show you that. And how much he knew it would mean to you. Yes, yes. Wow, you're talking about empathy. Yes. He sounds incredibly empathetic.

51:50Dame Maggie Aderin:And I think I learnt that empathy from him. From him, yeah. Yes. And it's funny, because being neurodiverse, I think it can give to heightened empathy. And I think he was too. I think he never knew, but he was probably dyslexic and all of that. But yes, and he was empathetic. And so we were like kindred spirits.

52:10Davina McCall:And when you were talking about your sisters getting places in this school and it being difficult, or one of them got a scholarship. Yes. and you were dyslexic so you were struggling with the academia side of it but you were clever how did you get into this boarding school like was there an exam or something that you had to pass

52:31Dame Maggie Aderin:fortunately not we went and did a series of interviews and so my father would take me to a lot different school and I bet you performed

52:39Davina McCall:brilliant actually yeah in the sort of one to one talking I love that yeah I mean oh my god mega

52:44Dame Maggie Aderin:you blow my mind I'd be like that she's in And she's in. Well, actually, there was a few moments, because I used to love really hot tea with sort of tiny amounts of milk and lots of sugar. What are you going to say?

52:56Davina McCall:Hot teachers. I'll be like that. Set me on, Maggie. Jeez.

53:01Dame Maggie Aderin:It's been a while. Yeah. You're hot teachers. In primary school, but yeah. Hot tea. Yeah, hot tea. Tea, tea. Yes. And so I used to put, you know, heat about five teaspoons of sugar in. Me too. And then sort of say, yeah, my teeth are a testament to that. But then stir and drink it. And one day I did this at an interview and my father sort of looked on and I put five teaspoons, stirred it, licked the spoon and then sort of banged it on the table. And my father said, Maggie, next time you go to a school, maybe...

53:31Davina McCall:Maybe not certain.

53:33Dame Maggie Aderin:Yeah, not five sugars and don't lick the spoon.

53:37Davina McCall:But I wasn't wasting a drop. It's so cute, isn't it, when you think back. I mean, you were six, you know, like you were so little. Like, how are you supposed to know? It's such a sweet picture that you're painting and your dad just watching you just going, you're going to have to have a word with her about that.

53:54Dame Maggie Aderin:I know, he's like, oh, Maggie. But yeah, not angry, not sort of, not fierce about it. Maybe don't lick the spoon.

54:03Davina McCall:So what was it, what was it like? I did want to ask you about you being born in the UK to Nigerian parents in the late 60s. what was that like as a young black woman growing up in an area and did you experience racism like on a daily basis and what was school like for you in the end in terms of that it's quite interesting

54:26Dame Maggie Aderin:because at home my father I think definitely saw the UK as hostile because when he came over I suppose sort of late 50s we came along later he felt you know no blacks no dogs no Irish publicly in windows. And there's legislation against things like that now, but that's what was the norm back then. Yes, yes. And things, yeah, I find it hard to envisage living with that sort of confrontation. And so when we were at home, it was, you know, be careful, yeah, because the outside world is hostile and almost they're out to get you. And so at school, people, you know, yeah, why don't you go back home?

55:06Dame Maggie Aderin:And it took me a long time to realise you'd be... I am home. Yes. This is the only home I know.

55:12Davina McCall:Could I ask you something? Just because I don't know much about Nigeria. I know a bit more about the West Indies. In the West Indies, they were kind of taught as a British colony that Britain is waiting for you. It's welcoming. We love you. Come over. Windrush. Everybody come over. It's going to be great. Was there something similar happening in Nigeria?

55:33Dame Maggie Aderin:Yes. And if you look at the Nigerian education system, It was very much based on the colonial views. And so I think people sent Christmas cards with snow on it. No one had seen snow in Nigeria. That's so mad, isn't it? Yes. But it is superimposing a culture on another culture. And the other culture is thriving underneath. But this is the norm. This is the way.

55:58Davina McCall:It's so confusing, that, for a kid.

56:00Dame Maggie Aderin:Yes. But when my father came over, I think he was expecting to be embraced. Yes. Yes. And because we were colonies and there were people coming over, they were inviting people over. But when people got here, it was, oh, you're here. What are you doing here? You're taking our jobs. And so that hostility. And so he felt that greatly. Also the cold, he had to buy a coat. And so he brought us up under the impression that, you know, out there, they don't like you. They don't want you. So you have to be, I don't know, not super, but just be wary of it. because almost they're out to get you, really.

56:38Davina McCall:Did it frighten you?

56:40Dame Maggie Aderin:Yes, I think to a certain extent. It felt that, and it's funny, even today I'm driving around a place and I'm looking and thinking, whoop, not many black people here. I'd better be on my best behaviour.

56:53Davina McCall:You would notice now, right? Yes. Because there aren't many places that aren't...

56:58Dame Maggie Aderin:No, it's a pretty multicultural, like integrated.

57:01Davina McCall:Yes. So it's quite a thing when you go somewhere and you think, oh, like I notice it. I think everybody notices it now because it's like, oh, this is quite weird.

57:10Dame Maggie Aderin:Yeah, it's not the norm. No. But that's transformative.

57:14Davina McCall:But it was back then. Yes. You were the only, was there a time when you were the only black girl somewhere?

57:19Dame Maggie Aderin:Oh, yeah. So boarding school.

57:22Davina McCall:Yeah.

57:22Dame Maggie Aderin:So the only black girl in the school. And the school were lovely about it. They were saying, if there was any sort of racism or things like that, let us know straight away and we will deal with it. Was there? No. The girls were lovely. And also it was quite an international mix because it was a boarding school. Girls coming from Bahrain and from sort of all over the place. And so, yes, I think it was a really lovely environment.

57:48Davina McCall:And lots of people from different cultures. Imagine if parents are working in like embassies or something like that and they can't. Yes. You know, they can't have the kids at home or something like that. Yeah.

57:59Dame Maggie Aderin:Or they're travelling with work. And so many kids sort of flew abroad. They were schooled in the UK, but flew abroad during the holidays.

58:09Davina McCall:So you were a girl. You were the only black girl in your school and you wanted to do science. You're going to be standing out here.

58:19Dame Maggie Aderin:When you put it that way.

58:22Davina McCall:But was it quite. Because I can see you're a very confident person. Was it quite nice standing out?

58:30Dame Maggie Aderin:it's funny um it's because i think when i'm not standing out i think oh hold it how about me i'm here hey it's maggie guys and so and so i think there's that part of me but i think it's sort of a theatrical part a performing part and so um and so yes i do i don't i think i don't mind being in the limelight yes and i think to a certain extent i do crave it which explains quite a bit of my career actually and so uh and so i i and i say that to people um if you're going to stick out just make sure you stick out for something good and so and utilize it to your advantage it doesn't have to be a negative oh i'm the only yeah i'm the only and a they need me because i'm the only so i'm bringing a different perspective and b it means that um uh well actually whatever i do they're going to notice which is great yeah i think i have a tendency to flip things if I see a negative you know how can I see it as a positive like I love public speaking as you can see I love chatting and sometimes I get nervous and I think okay am I nervous or am I excited

59:39Davina McCall:because if I'm excited I can lean into it I say that all the time because it feels the same it is

59:47Dame Maggie Aderin:it's the same as adrenaline and rush and everything else but you say but if you see it's a different mindset and then oh yeah I'm excited and they're not going to go and do this rather oh I'm nervous and then you're on the back foot so I think yeah we can flip things so often and now I'm trying to use it more and more in my everyday life it's like oh I don't like this but why don't I like this and maybe I can like it.

1:00:09Davina McCall:Is that not just one of the brilliant benefits of getting older?

1:00:14Dame Maggie Aderin:Yes yes.

1:00:15Davina McCall:Changing a perspective on life and how we look at it.

1:00:18Dame Maggie Aderin:Yes and knowing that you can do that and it's acceptable and it's not about compromise it's just about a viewpoint yeah and it's a viewpoint that makes it better for me and hopefully other people as well but yes it's a win-win

1:00:34Davina McCall:yeah what's interesting is what's better for you is better for other people in ways isn't it in society like you're you're better you can spread it spread that love and

1:00:43Dame Maggie Aderin:Yes, and connect better. And connect better, yeah.

1:00:46Davina McCall:I just quickly would like to finish on talking about your Barbie.

1:00:53Dame Maggie Aderin:Oh, yes.

1:00:54Davina McCall:Because this is really special. And I want to ask you how it happened. And, yeah, just tell me the story behind that. And then also your other Barbie, because I love this story of the two.

1:01:08Dame Maggie Aderin:Yes. So it was 2023, which was the year of the Barbie movie. and I was contacted by Mattel.

1:01:15Davina McCall:Yeah.

1:01:15Dame Maggie Aderin:And I thought, oh, I've never worked with them before, but they said that every year they take six women from across the world who they see as role models and they will make a sort of a customised Barbie of them.

1:01:28Davina McCall:Like even just that made you want to cry. Didn't that make you want to cry? A role model, six women from across the world. No, but Maggie, like that is mega.

1:01:40Dame Maggie Aderin:And the thing is, but it's almost hard to comprehend because in all of these situations, I think, have they ever heard of me? Exactly. I'm just the one that goes around blabbing about science. And so suddenly you think my impact is bigger than I realise. It's like having a bigger footprint than I realise. And so it was just magical. And so they said, OK, well, if you're happy, too right. What, do I want a Barbie made of me? Let me think about it. I said, I'm a bit busy at the moment. And they said, okay, we need photographs of you. And so I got my daughter and she said, yeah, Laurie. Yeah, Laurie.

1:02:17Dame Maggie Aderin:She's the light of my life. And she said, wear your favourite outfit. And what we'll do is we'll take photographs and then we'll send them to sort of a Mattel headquarters and we will make you into a Barbie.

1:02:29Davina McCall:I want to show this camera. I'm going to show this camera. So, yeah, it's my favourite space dress. This is a dress that's covered in moons and stars. I love the fact that they've got your purple hair. Yes, and in twists as well. And in twists as well.

1:02:44Dame Maggie Aderin:Oh, my God, that's so good. The attention to detail was amazing. It's amazing. I'm wearing trainers because that's my comfy footwear. Love it.

1:02:52Davina McCall:Love it. And also your jewellery. Yes. As well. Love that.

1:02:59Dame Maggie Aderin:Yes.

1:02:59Davina McCall:So what was that like when you received that?

1:03:03Dame Maggie Aderin:I was quite nervous because they took the images and went away. And then I was thinking, what if it doesn't look like me? What if I don't like it? And you were going to do a big reveal in front of the press. And so I was there with the cameras.

1:03:19Davina McCall:Oh, my God, of course. Oh, no, that's awful. Imagine if you didn't like it.

1:03:23Dame Maggie Aderin:Oh, yeah, lovely.

1:03:25Davina McCall:I always think it's like getting socks for Christmas.

1:03:27Dame Maggie Aderin:Oh, great.

1:03:29Davina McCall:But worse, because you've got to go in front of the world's press and pretend you like it. because they've gone to all that trouble. Yes, and I think it was so much...

1:03:35Dame Maggie Aderin:But they did the reveal. Love you. And I think I thought... She's gorgeous. I know, and I always say, she looks like me, but me on a really good day. And I love it. I know. It's obvious. The me, I aspire to be, when the make-up and everything is just working beautifully. Great, great. But yeah, it was just such a magical thing to get. And it's lovely because I go out to schools and say, you know, I'm a space scientist, but I have my own Barbie.

1:03:59Davina McCall:I mean, I bet kids are like, wow. you know I didn't really do anything but thank you you did you did what you do to get here you know what I mean that's what's amazing

1:04:12Dame Maggie Aderin:and it's an icky guy I'm just you know

1:04:16Davina McCall:but tell me about Laurie as well because I love this

1:04:18Dame Maggie Aderin:and so because I have my own Barbie and I sort of keep her at home but I thought she'd get lonely because my empathy sometimes runs over overdrive and so I thought I don't want her to get any lonely so one of the things Laurie and I used to do is we used to we used to try and find Barbies that looked like us. Now Barbie the Barbie dolls out there are so much more varied now. Yeah. When I was growing up they were very when we were growing up they were just a very stereotypical view. Very stereotypical. But now and so we found this Barbie doll which has sort of similar hair to Laurie and so they sit in a box together at home because they're sort of keeping each other company.

1:04:54Dame Maggie Aderin:So you and Laurie are together though as well.

1:04:55Davina McCall:It's symbolic isn't it? It's really cute.

1:04:57Dame Maggie Aderin:But I never told Mattel I decapitate their dolls because I don't know how that would go down. between you and me I won't tell anyone

1:05:08Davina McCall:listen I have had like too much fun I mean I'm sure working isn't supposed to be like this but I have found Hikki Go I have found Hikki Go but I just want to tell everybody if you want to be inspired or you want to read a book about a really fascinating life, a life lived in full that's not over yet We've got part two coming. Please go get this book, Starchild, My Life Under the Night Sky by Maggie O'Darren. It's really an amazing read. And I love, can I just say, love the photos as well. Absolutely brilliant. It's so, so amazing. Maggie, please can I hug you? Oh, no, please. Stay, stay, stay.

1:05:53Davina McCall:Stay there, I'm coming to you. I love you. I love you. Thank you. With such kindred spirits. New York City, summer 1972, a city overheating, a nation on edge. One Brooklyn bank robbery, wall-to-wall coverage, America can't look away.

1:06:14Dame Maggie Aderin:Now, Dog Day Afternoon, live on Broadway. The Oscar-winning true story, unfiltered, unstoppable. Starring Emmy Award winners John Bernthal and Eben Moss Bachrach. Directed by Rupert Gould. Written for the stage by Stephen Adler-Gierkus. Get tickets at dogdayafternoonbroadway.com. Thought Sweetgreen was just salads? Think again. There's a new way to do Sweetgreen. Wrapped and ready. These handheld wraps pack bold flavor and 40-plus grams of protein into something hearty, satisfying, and built for life on the go.

1:06:46Davina McCall:From craveable sauces to satisfying textures, they're designed to keep you going without slowing you down. So put that fork down. Try the new wraps today in app or at order.sweetgreen.com. available at participating locations only.

1:07:29Dame Maggie Aderin:11th and get up to 50 % off site-wide at blinds.com.