Jamie Oliver: Changing The Way We Eat Didn't Make Me Popular!

0:00When the world turned against you, what kept you going? The truth is... If you say the word chef, we just all go Jamie. I don't know how it all happened, really. I mean, seeing you that first time at the River Cafe, you were actually standing in for someone. Yeah, I was never supposed to be there. And then you fast forward to the 24-year-old that sold a million books and went really quickly from being very skint to being quite wealthy. I was really uncomfortable with it. Oh, wow. And I had money in the bank and I just spent it all. Everyone's looking at me going, he's either mad or genius. And I've had my fair share of failure.

0:31I think my average was probably 50-50. You have taken a lot of flack for doing something so brilliant for us. I wanted to talk to you about school dinners. Yeah, it was 18 months of shit, frankly. But then the minute that all the naysayers saw that, everyone changed within 10 hours. Oh, wow. I'm very grateful for Jules and our 25-year journey of marriage. She's definitely the rock. Life's a bit of a numbers game, and you've got to have a go, otherwise you never know. First of all, I want to say, I'm so excited to have you here. We, collectively, as a team, I don't think we've ever loved a guest more like we are.

1:12Oh, really? Yeah, marginally obsessed with you. Because you've been, you're part of the furniture, like you are in our DNA. You've been part of our lives for so long, helping us. I think it's nearly 30 years. I mean, it's amazing. It's a naked chef. And not only that, but I think if you say the word chef, we just all go, Jamie. That's amazing. I don't know how it's all happened, really. I do. Do you? Yeah. Please tell me because I'm trying to work it out. You're lovely. Oh, thank you so much. I think that's the bottom line. You're good at what you do, but you're a really great guy with a good soul.

1:58Thank you. That's what I see in you. Thank you. I appreciate that. I mean, I think like using a trade or a hobby or something to try and be optimistic and shine a light on things that are joyful. I mean, food's great like that, really. food means so many things and can mean so many things infinitely really isn't it from the table to what happens around the table to what you eat to how you eat to you know is it for fun is it for comfort is it for for you know medicine is it you know like it's just a powerful thing and i didn't i just didn't realize how lucky i was when i grew up in the industry you know that was when most kids kind of wake up in the morning and went downstairs to the front room mine was a kitchen literally went down the stairs and you open a little door um and it was a kitchen so that was my growing up in a pub restaurant that was my childhood really I thought it was normal but of course it's not normal what is interesting I think um is that I do feel like understanding food is um it is a gift and you either have it or you haven't and it isn't necessarily something you can learn I think some some people have the gift I think there's definitely like a personality thing where um you have the confidence to own it and all it is is a selection of principles really and processes and and um it's not like one giant club it's lots of little bubbles of information do you know what I mean so if your if your kids have got the confidence to own that thing and then tweak it and play with it and then put it and die with it and have I got this much money or that much money doesn't matter you know have I got this or that doesn't matter swap it out put that in yes it's cold so I think that having that confidence to own it is is I think partly their personality and mainly their personality it says quite a lot about the way they look at life probably I'm guessing yeah my sister's very similar is she yeah very much so she's a great cook and she just owns it she makes it hers and of course it's the owning of it because I mean, whether it's music or art or many things, like there's like there's a right and a wrong way.

4:08But then really, that's kind of a bit subjective some of the time, most of the time. So really, it's about how, you know, if you've got an artist that's very famous, that's technically doing something wrong, but owning whatever they call it. You know, they own it. So I think that's making food work for you is the holy grail. And you can teach that to kids really young. I mean, that's partly why I'm, I know I'm a bit of a broken record, but I'm going through a phase at the moment thinking that our kids deserve, all kids, British kids, well, they deserve, we need to reimagine home economics. Yes.

4:44And if you look at what's really stitching up Britain right now, it's diet related disease is really putting this country over the edge. It's really breaking the NHS. It's really making us not as happy and not as well, not as optimistic. mental health all sorts of things it's connected to so I just I mean I know I'm a broken record because I cook but I just think what a gift to give every British kid and I think with food what I saw in lockdown when we did the lockdown show which I shot on my mobile phone with my wife we were all in it together yeah I like anyone else could only buy 80 items from the supermarket and like by the end of the week when we were filming my stuff was looking tatty just like yours and it's sort of like and there was that sort of look in our eyes about kind of like what is going on in the world what's it all about and in a world where all our choices have been taken away and we weren't allowed out and all of that business what we could do was choose what to cook yes and i do think that food has the power to make a home feel like a home i know it's cheesy but i i do think that you know yeah when things aren't great you i cooking can really help um not just from a nourishment nutritional point of view but it sort of i think it centers the house feels like a home makes it feel the home i was just gonna say that when did i'm so um in awe of jamie the activist and you keep kind of going i'm sorry because i know i sound like a you know we we as a nation you have taken such a lot of flack for doing something so brilliant for us and over time i think now that we've everybody's got used to the wider kind of public have got used to trying to think more about sugar.

6:25But you started that a very long time ago but got quite a lot of shit thrown at you for it. Nearly every time, yeah. Yeah, and every time you explore a new thing that you feel you need to change. So at what age did Jamie the activist start? Like wanting to change the world or you knew that maybe you could make something better or that you saw something it's a really good question I mean I think like the the young my childhood was very standard I mean beautiful like country BMXs go out all day in the summer holidays come back for dinner um very kind of swallows and amazons or kind of like the goonies or stand by me it was like you know um I really um I not in a sort of sad way I mean know just wasn't great at school I was dyslexic so I couldn't really shine at school I loved school because my friends were there and it was a safe place which is kind of the holy grail for learning is it's got to be safe first but I think like being in special needs and stuff like that I just I think I built up quite a resentment to the concept of school now as a 50 year old I see school as like like one of the you know the most incredible assets or weapons you know it's such an incredible thing to have but you know it took me a while to sort of shake off I guess an amount of resentment um about not being able to fit in can I ask you something about um because obviously that was at a time when dyslexia really wasn't yeah kind of respected hardly talked about talked about at all no concessions really you were made to feel stupid or oh god yeah i mean you just yeah you just it was i mean again i it it wasn't a sad thing for me because i my personality and and i had enough confidence within myself but i think for some of the kids if if not potentially the majority um uh the being pulled out of class halfway through and being dragged up to the attic to be in special needs is a thing um and obviously and picture that in a school of 800 boys um so like i say it it didn't feel bad for me but i think it could have for others and and as i've grown up and published and met many kids that are dyslexic um and struggle at school they've had terrible times and and since i did the documentary you know you learn the statistics of course um by being dyslexic or neurodiverse anyway but specifically on dyslexia which is about 10 to 15 percent of every classroom in every school in the country um these kids get bullied more they get kind of picked on more they have to be defensive more they get expelled more they get in trouble more because they're more defensive more uh they end up in prison more 65 percent of people in prison that are dyslexic um you know so what you see is is and it's not they're not in prison like directly because of their dyslexia it's because around six seven eight nine years old they start this pattern of being defensive being picked on and it becomes a social pattern and it leads to you know when you when you follow the high amounts of dyslexic kids or and you're diverse of course that get expelled and then what happens to most of those kids when they get expelled and where they spend their time and the trouble they get in they're not meant to be in jail but they end up in large quantities in jail so luckily cooking saved me from that so you went up when I was 10 I started working at the weekends and by the time I was 12 13 I was doing the summer holidays too so I knew quite young that I didn't think I was gonna be a chef but I knew I wasn't worthless because I knew that I fit it into the kitchen and I could earn one pound 20 an hour times that by 10 you know do the maths it's like you know I I always had a score in my pocket.

10:27So even from a young age and I was independent. Can I ask you something about that? Because, you know, I was going to say to you, where did you get your confidence from? Was there anything before kind of 10 years old, before you started working in the pub where you think, actually, do you know what? This really helped me feel good about myself. Or did it start at 10? I think confidence comes from a few places. I think I really believe that confidence comes. I've got good parents, solid parents, and they're like rocks. And I think in a way that just some of parenting is just existing and being there and being there if you're needed.

11:03You're not always needed. And the kids might not want you to fix everything. But having great parents is without question, like the foundation of your confidence. And then I think having great friends, which I did. I had beautiful friends from day one. I'm still friends with kids from primary school. I still see them regularly. I still friends with 80 percent of my school year at school. we've got a reunion just around the corner um of course experience does and experience i guess in some respects is a little bit about what this is about which is about you know being fully rounded being fully or or very rounded or very experienced can't just be about successes it has to be also structured by or propped up by failure and i've had my fair share of failure like I you know I think my average was 70 30 like 10 years ago but it's probably 50 50 you know which is not great but I think it's real I think I think it is great yeah failure is so important yeah well I think like there's a certain degree of like life's a bit of a numbers game and you gotta have a go otherwise you never know so um and I think failure is uh has comes in various forms and shapes but it's an incredible educator I was just gonna say have you learned from your yeah i think like you know because failure can mean different things to different people in different ways i mean it you know it could be as simple as a cut or a burn or it could be losing something that you've spent every ounce of your savings on and it's gone like you know burnt like that um it could be letting people down yes that you love um and um so i think like it can failure can be very painful um and i also think that like as you get older the concept of pain pain's always seen as a negative thing but really pain is is an extraordinary gift as a whole concept you know i mean like when you hit your foot when you got a splinter when you get a burn like ow it's it's negative but it's like if you didn't have that we'd we'd have been dead 30 years ago you know so i think it's it's an it's a real true gift and i think i think trying to maybe it's me being philosophical and trying to protect myself but i think that pain and failure is all part of um

13:25uh really shaping your your sort of your periphery vision and your senses and you know and I think like whatever is it you're trying to do like it might not have failed because it was all wrong sometimes I failed because I was too early and people weren't ready sometimes I failed because I was too late sometimes interesting sometimes I failed and I got all the hard bits right yeah and I got the basics wrong because I spent a lifetime refusing to accept any responsibility around numbers and maths which goes back to school and like you know like that's it's my issue not not the school's issue like you know I was in the worst group for maths I didn't pass maths at school like you know like within conceptually within that yeah I'm thick when you know like that I have a negative view of myself when it comes to maths so like you know when I lost my my restaurants you know all the hard stuff we got right all the stuff that most people struggle getting right we got right like we were really good at the hard stuff and like it was really the basics but and through my inability and it sounds like I'm being hard on myself but I recognize it now through you know my inability to exercise the demons of light actually like maybe you're not shit at that and actually you can retrain that and actually as I've got older some of the things that have really uplifted me is like even writing this book for instance like I went to university like seven, eight years ago.

14:56Every Friday I go to uni. And what were you doing? Well, I was studying nutrition. Can I ask you, why did you do that?

15:07Because my relationship with the public through publishing. So if I kind of rewind, you know me pretty well now. And also through the dyslexia in the school thing. like from that jamie and then you fast forward to the 24 year old that sold a million books and went really quickly from being very skint to being you know quite wealthy like it it kind of wasn't real and i so i and for all the right reasons and i think partly because i grew up in a pub i like dad brought me up to sort of like the pub serves a community in the pub the pub's the most democratic place on earth bar none everyone's welcome rich poor welcome you know my best friends were local travelers and cockneys you know there were aristocrats and business people in there the bowl club the tennis club so this idea of a community and being in the center of the community so when when the public chose to make me the person that i am today which was you know essentially buying a book is like a vote isn't it if you look at if you think about it and unlike the if you think about how things are judged these days and i'm trying to keep up with social media and stuff but it's all it's all about likes and views and comments and it's like yeah but they're all free like when when you've like when out of nowhere you've done a million books because the public have been moved by some sort of energy and like so and i obviously it took me a while to work out well why why has this happened and you could say also it's luck but when it happens again and again and again and you're 10 years in and you've done 10 million books it's like okay so it was very clear to me that I work for the public so that's why I had to go to uni and learn the truth but also that kind of did kind of key also into my campaigning side because I'd already been like 10 years into campaigning for child health public health um you know a lot of the reasons that Britain is as unhealthy as it is and dies younger than it should and isn't as optimal for the last 20 years uh in their own mind or their own feelings or their own body or their own work um is is because the environment we live in is very obesogenic it's it's very easy to get it wrong it's it's it's really hard to get it right so um so i think studying the nutrition being passionate about people and choices and the concept of choices like the choice isn't a crap choice and a crap choice the choice is good and bad so so i've never been about like you know sometimes like if the press want to like make something look a certain way they will use the word ban like we're going to ban something and so it's never really uh although something should be banned um it's always about fighting for choice and choices between you know red amber green or you know lardy every day um and healthy like we you know and even if it was a vending machine we wouldn't want to take away the like all the chocolates and the crisps because people want that but if you if you're at three in the morning and you work in a corset now you might want something that's called food so you know you know i mean so i i kind of i think the idea of giving people choices is right your mind is amazing like it's um it's brilliant to watch i can literally see you thinking yeah and it's um i mean i i i keep thinking about Jules and I wonder about when you first got together if she'd just sit there and go like wow I just love listening to you talk because you your ideas man you should interview Jules I mean I would love to interview Jules not joking I mean she's amazing but about her as well because you two have built you've built an amazing life you've you've built what Trevor and Sally have done for you you know like um but but but beside that I I wanted to just say you it's it's interesting isn't it how these messages that we send ourselves as kids I was all the most frightening place for me in a room would be with clever people I would always think I can't keep up with you I don't know what in my head I was like I am not as smart as you and I I flunked out of an A-level.

19:17I took a couple of A-levels. I didn't do very well. I was on drugs. I was a mess at the time. I'm a different person to that person now. And it's like unfinished business. I'm going to go back and take one of my A-levels. I think your story is a story that's very inspiring to people because what I can resonate with you in a different way is that when you think this is it, this is me, this is what I got to give the world is completely untrue you're you're an unfinished story and um the the man that sits here now is completely different to the 17 and the 10 year old that was then i was never i didn't grow up political or as an activist i didn't fly any flags or sort of like chant or march no way i think but i think like weirdly the sort of the concept of the pub and the community burnt deeply into my sense of right and wrong um and in the creation of 15 i got to learn about kids like me from school so nearly all the kids had an experience like me at school but that was it because i was white and at that point in my life i came from a working class family but we became classically british middle class um and you know i had kids from inner city london you know abusive parents or you know drugs everywhere and dealers everywhere and death threats everywhere and like like 15 was real like it was proper um I mean I could tell stories of all kinds of scenarios about where the young people came from um before we go any further about that I would really like for anybody watching I mean I would say most of us will know um 15 and Jamie's Kitchen but for anybody that's maybe abroad and that doesn't know you could you explain oh of course your idea behind 15 and yeah that idea happened and what brought you there i mean it's really simple like when i when the public decided to buy my cookbooks um i was grateful for not worrying about the red minus number in my bank account um and i was somewhat shocked by the zeros that were in there um but i think the way i was brought up i felt like i hadn't earned an honest pound i was quite really yeah i was really i kind of really uncomfortable with it oh and and of course journalists would never believe me because that all bullshit you know but it was really true and and so i spent all of it like all of it on building 15 and not only all of it but i think for three weeks i was like a couple of hundred grand in debt because like the builders were fighting with the designers and it was kind of going over and I didn't understand business um and um thankfully another royalty check from penguin thank you saved the day and we built 15 and we launched it but essentially it was called 15 because we took 15 kids who were unemployed out of education between 16 and 22 um at the time and I'd say like 60 percent of those kids came from troubled backgrounds um now that could be life of crime fresh from prison um it could be homeless um and then the other sort of half 40 were just regular kids that were a bit lost and there lied the genius by the way like if i'd have just got all kids that were rough it wouldn't have worked i never realized because when you get any group of people 10 to 100 to a thousand if you have children or young people that are not on the right track that are together on an environment of change a journey of change and transformation um if they're all from the same background the same hood and the same chaos they're all ebbing and flowing at the same time right now obviously i wasn't a school or a college it was just my world but to them there was a handful of adults i know i wasn't that old but I put counsellors and people that were team leaders of the young people, the students, and I put a chef next to a student.

23:26So that was the genius. We took a professional chef and put one on one, 15 chefs, 15 students. And that's how we could mentor them. So we give them like six years, five years training in one year. Now, even with that infrastructure, it still looked like an institutional, which it kind of is. It's like a kitchen structure is a French regimental kitchen. Right. so it looked a bit like school it looked a bit like college the person that cared looked like the counselor that cared at school so although that was deeply important the ebbing and flowing required this yes and this happens from kids from all backgrounds from all ethnic backgrounds from from we had middle class kids we had a rich kid and like the most needy kid of the first year was a city boy millionaire's son that had spent his life bouncing from city, country, you know, Hong Kong to here to here.

24:18And every time he made a group of friends, like something would go wrong because his dad was a bit tasty. And then they just like next day they were gone. It was like chaos. So like, but he came from a wealthy background. And so like having, you know, but most of our kids came from sort of inner city classic council estates and trouble and drugs. but it's having having the ebb and flow of backgrounds allowed them to self-police themselves and that was the genius did you know to do that i felt to do that yeah this is is this what you're talking about when you're like we get things right yeah that other people don't get right because that's actually an extraordinary thing because three years in yeah three years later i I employed like a professional person that runs social businesses and he he did a logical thing of getting all kids from the same background and we had so much trouble and outcomes were so much worse so it you know I had to then change things and pull back what the best bits of what we started off with from the heart so um you know before I we'd have like a thousand kids in the early days go for 15 places so we kind of get it down in various forms to 500 to 100 and then we do taste tests with 100 just live and it didn't matter if they were food foodie or not foodie and what were you looking for then um because i was a sort of special needs kid it wasn't like um and actually i had dinner with um with a student just two nights ago and he was like you know he's from ireland and he was like jamie like i didn't know anything about food and like you gave me the food and I vomited it up in front of you like but you chose me why did you do that I said because because it wasn't about you like we were challenging you with textures and flavors and it didn't matter if you liked it or or did like it or didn't like it what I was interested in is what did you taste why did you hate it what made you throw up but I'm really curious was it the texture was it the way it went down the back of your throat like so then when you say well what do you like and you know kind of shepherd's pie you know okay well what do you like about it well it's nice you know but really what do you like about it well what's the bit you like about it and it's like and then finally like i would just go mining for them saying i like the bit where the gravy kind of goes around the corner and sort of blips up and kind of you get that crispy bit and like the potato is different there than it is there it's like yeah you know so okay so like now we're tuning into that so you're in like you know so it was oh my god it was yeah it was like it must be so exciting when you see someone you go oh yeah they've got the thing well then i had like 50 of those but then because we were working with quite some of them were like lively and from lively backgrounds we take them to wales for two days and i just needed to make sure like if they were too physically violent or bullies like that like i knew that was beyond my funding because i was the only one funding me at that point it was 25 grand per student by the time we finished 17 years later it's 40 grand per student the government gave me nothing so the only money to pay for that came from the profit we made on the plates of food that we sold so you know it was an interesting one so um two days we'd taken away like team building building bridges it didn't matter what it was they just thought we were testing them on that it was nothing to do with that we were just watching from the fire going that's the second time in an hour that he's threatened to smack someone that's not gonna work okay you know and i mean we had we had young people that came from very famous gangs gangs drug gangs um and and it was such an education and and it was so interesting because like what i was trying to do was create a place of safety um second and third and fourth chances and um although we had extraordinary i mean my life is generally surrounded by extraordinary women and largely extraordinary women but it was very key that the men that were there were really great men and really beautiful men and men that had um the right relationship with masculinity and vulnerability and um and the reason that was is because the pattern of young people that we were with came from largely fatherless families which you know probably isn't surprising but like this is something so you know you're trying to you're trying to create that and yeah and then like for some of them um i i it was an education for me because i didn't realize in into family jealousy i'd never seen it in my life oh wow it wasn't a concept that i knew existed so when you have a child a teenager that has been in chaos and trouble and very quickly they're being because with a with let's let's say it's probably a wrong word with a young person that's on the wrong track it's i can promise you it's very easy to fix them uh with some consistency and a bit of time and second and third chances and lots of safety and inspiration like they change very very consistently quickly um but um sometimes the biggest danger to them was their family it's very hard i don't think i could legally say that sometimes for a proportion of our young people my biggest objective was to keep them away from their parents yeah or their uncles or their brothers or sisters or their neighbors because because if i could them to succeed yeah and so it was really interesting like so i so and this sounds like slave labor but like there's there's a theory to this so i used to push them about we used to do about 65 to 70 hours a week of good learning and hard work and so the long weeks gave me a few things the long weeks gave me the ability to their teaching and learning progression was really fast so they could learn twice as fast as everyone else because they were doing twice the hours as everyone else at the same time um we could kind of like indoctrinate them in a different way of thinking which was a loving positive way and community and and oh like it's not like that I thought that was normal but this is oh this is much more normal oh and it's consistently normal um and then also when they went home they were knackered if they went home with energy they'd get in trouble again certainly in the first five months um so yeah learning that parents were jealous of their kids that was a massive shock to me so that that was 15 best thing I've ever done what was life like for you at home because i'm imagining that 15 yeah 15 took up a lot of your brain and your heart yeah it was an interesting one i mean i probably should talk to jules more about it really but because i lived it we just yeah got on with it yeah um setting up 15 doing see like lots of people can have good ideas but and i kind of cheated the system because i had the money right so i always why did you do it i always said i say something very quickly sorry got to interrupt you there i feel like that's not cheating the system that's just doing something absolutely heroic yeah well you used your own money to do something extraordinary for so many no that that is true but but the reason i use the word cheating the system is and it's something that i've learned looking at me now best bits and worst and and sort of then best bits and worst different people like we were talking about like when they said well why did you do it i said i wanted to i could and i did yeah what do you mean why did you do it i wanted to i could and i did so i want so i think there's a lot of young people with great ideas and and like oh my god this this the beautiful thing about young people is like they're they're even if they're green like that it's just their raw ideas and like not love yeah not full of hope not smashed by kind of like balance sheets and conservatism and sort of like realism it's like no no we're going to create a new realism and that's what 15 was that and then so then normally those young people can't do those things because they couldn't i could like i had i had money in the bank and i just spent it all on doing it i didn't give a shit what anyone said like who was going to tell me what to do i'm doing it and everyone's looking at me going he's really doing it so then of course all the people that helped me open it or like the genius sommeliers and chefs like we started drawing like magnet all the best people going he's either mad or genius it's like so it was a it was a really interesting it was almost like a creating a new type of music yeah it was like wow um and then of course we didn't have profit we had the young people yeah so it was like it for me personally it was like nearly everything I've ever done if not everything there's some sort of um what's the word um um there's some there's a currency and there's a kind of exchange yeah you know and at 15 it was there's nothing it was just like I have nothing you know this institution is here just for you you are the prophet I don't take a wage I'm not conflicted by it I'm completely out of confliction so i'm just and then what that did was when when you've done that then the people that wanted to come and help for free and for love this it's like this avalanche of people that also feel the same way and and when that sort of happens you get something very beautiful happen and and that was 15.

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35:58Out of the people that went through 15 and I mean, you were talking about having dinner with one the other night. like how could you tell me a story like that you were just absolutely thrilled by or somebody that you've stayed in touch with and you think wow um on a weekly basis my life is enriched by by young people that I could bond with them on a level that was very rare because I was able to unconditionally give them what they needed and it's it's the best medicine to all the shit that i have for making other failures when i'm at my lowest that top i mean i i'll show you i'll probably start crying i'm just thinking about it makes me um i have to go into instagram so that's what he posted two days ago so yeah i think you can read that that's fine so he's a really talented chef he's come a long way he's come from like a life of crime and now he's sort of like doing great things in food and running his own business got his life in order and um i mean you can read that out that's you can i read it well if it's useful to you you can be sure yeah yeah um all of this happened because jamie oliver saw something in me that i never recognized writing this makes me feel emotional and very happy nothing will be possible without this man here as i celebrate another great achievement.

37:31I owe this man everything for the investing he made in me. I came off the roads and became something to be proud of. While being a private chef I mentor kids who have similar backgrounds to mine. It carries on. Pass it on. It has been an incredible summer for my cooking business and I'm thrilled with all the achievements that mark the beautiful end of this year. Oh, that's so good. You can tell from the rest of the dialogue that this the concept of being a mentor also you can be a mentoree yeah so like the idea of like giving unconditionally to people do you know what i mean so the thing is so like who's the medicine and what's the antidote do you know what i mean so the thing is it's like obviously that kid and there's many of them they were 480 of those young people and i interact with hundreds of them regularly so obviously i gave them a lot but you can kind of see like you know i don't really have that many people to talk to either so it kind of goes back the other way so it's a beautiful it's a beautiful thing that you can kind of um earn i guess isn't it it's sort of earning people's trust and you know and i think i think especially if you're in the public eye um it's very hard i mean god i mean god thank the fact that i knew jules before i got famous um because i never would have known if she actually really loved me do you know what i mean like so it's or it's certainly i i would imagine it's tougher to find true love if you're well known or people have a presumption of something so i think you know um but ultimately on a human level it's about um um it's about this isn't it it's about connection and obviously that connection is through 15 through teaching and mentoring and transformation from one place which is really rough you know when you talk to these young these young people a lot of them represented the very worst of what we read in the newspapers and then you can take them into a place where you know a handful of them have got michelin stars and as you can tell from that young person they have a car they have a house they have consistency they have a stable family you know they might not have had the life when they grew up that was just but they've learned that that you can create this you know what good looks like so but also it comes back and um and i guess in even down to sort of like the cookbooks the programs it's trying to create excuses for um human interaction especially now in a life of digital madness and and brilliance as well but you know what i mean really is like, and as cheesy as it sounds, like the act of cooking, you can be healthier, you can save money.

40:26It kind of makes a home a home, like, you know, but it does. But even the concept of a table. I'm coming together. Yeah. I'm bringing people together for a meal to actually sit down. It's everything so fractious. It's so easy to, for somebody to eat upstairs, for somebody else to eat in another room. But the joy of eating together, I mean, I'm half French. so I my half of my life was in a place where it was um it wasn't an option you had three meals a day around a table and everybody sat down together end of you know tv dinners were not a thing yeah and the French were interesting because if you look at them as a country not not as an area or I mean I've spent years going around the blue zones where people live the longest but if you look at France as a country they do much better than most as a country and they suffer from way less uh like sort of uh peaks of like uh diet related disease cardiovascular disease like they they kind of buck quite a few things and it's unusual but if you look at them culturally not through law or legislation or banning anything culturally they protect an hour and a half lunch pretty like religiously like free courses in schools factories like posh working places not posh working places like it's lunch so that idea and you know even just yesterday i was working with a scientist and they've proven that taking time with your food means you absorb more of the nutrients you know it's healthier um your body it the food releases itself to you so it's taking time over eating is better for you yeah rushing lunch is not healthy yeah rushing lunch will help you get fatter rushing lunch will only help uh you know uh create scenarios that are um they're not healthy for you more inflammatory so um being together is anti-inflammatory you know be like taking your time chewing the fowl and what's brilliant about the blue zones where people live the longest is science can't really work out exactly why these areas where people a lot more old people that live flexible productive joyful lives older like what is it is it the food of course it's the food it's the balance and bits but it's also they've got more they've got more best friends they have they have more time to chat they have a faith not the same faith so you know it's yes i kind of like i like the the beauty that it's not just the food or the flavor but it's also how it makes you feel how you take the time to eat it you know that that that makes the world of food even more magical and the possibilities more endless you you were talking about how much it meant to you not just to give but when you receive you know you get as yeah i mean i receive quite reluctantly but i but also i kind of but i think there's something but also i get vulnerable too i get lonely too and uh there's i was gonna just I have to say that, that loneliness.

43:27Yeah. I mean, what I thought was interesting was seeing you that first time at the River Cafe, bless Ruthie Rogers. Love her. And you, I mean, talk about a sliding doors moment because you were actually standing in for someone. Yeah. You weren't supposed to be there that day. I was never supposed to be there that day. But the camera points at you and I'm just like, you are on. like i mean it feels like you'd been in your bedroom practicing cooking talking to a camera fake camera fit yes had you ever done that like no no no no you were so good the tv camera were annoying and they're in my way and it was a really tight kitchen and i'm like oh for the love of god but the but what i had done is i've been cooking since i was 10 so a lot of people at the time were like oh my god like the close-ups of your hands making that thing was like an old man's hands making it and then it palmed up to you in a sort of like it's like a set of lips and sort of like some mad like indie Britpop haircut it's like but um but of course I was very young I was like I was very young at that how old were you 23 I think then because that's quite fame is quite isolating there probably weren't that many 23 year old famous chefs at the time there's jealousy there's professional jealousy you you saw with your kids at 15 like family I mean obviously not in your family but there can be friends jealousy it's like it's a lonely place is that something because I've always called myself an island I feel like I'm an island it's okay I'm not complaining but it's sometimes I need to build bridges to places well you know I call me and michael are islands yeah and i call um him abetha and i'm formantara and we formed an archipelago yeah um and we've built a bridge yeah but we're the same sort of person and i feel like you are similar in that um the way that you were was quite isolating in a funny kind of way yeah it didn't feel like that in the beginning because it was so exciting and such a shock and also that time which was amazing for me then was also amazing for you then like i was watching you doing the dating show around street street amazing and also groundbreaking in its own in its own way like running around brilliant i love to bring it back um and um but yeah i think it was like cool britannia was the era and like there was so much happening in music and gig venues and art and the modeling industry in the fashion industry so really i was sort of the last bit sort of sprinkled over the top of that and and food or young people and men and food were kind of getting brought into the equation but i think after like a couple of years of just the shock of it all um i i think um then you become more like an island and you sort of think oh god like who do you trust and bits and pieces and you kind of forget that you're you but of course the like you know if i walk into a cab or a room like you can get all sorts of reactions so um and also you're quite an open person which is a brilliant lovely thing but it's also quite dangerous because you end up talking to somebody and saying something and back in those days when it was yeah you know scandals and papers non-stop it was quite a hard time i wanted to talk yeah i wanted to talk to you about you know um your foray into um activism around school dinners yeah and

47:06the kind of you know you were doing something brilliant then and I think it's easy with hindsight now everybody can see that but actually you got a lot of flack yeah what made you want to do that and what kept you going when the world seemed to turn against you and you were doing something so brilliant yeah I think um well I guess what I was learning quite young and thank god i was quite young because i was just just stupid enough to do it um like there's a couple of things i was getting right like first of all i was following my instincts like that's not right this is wrong we should try and do something about it and i had this new vehicle called the tv or a documentary or something like that to be able to tell stories and it's obviously a massive gift and a brilliant place to tell stories and try and empower the public to see things differently and and maybe go on a bit of a journey with you um at the same time i'd started gathering we were talking earlier about oh you surround yourself by some amazing women and i surround myself always did from day one as soon as i could afford it like just amazing generally women 96 percent women um don't know why um it's not really intentional but um i think it's partly because i work really well with women but also because i think in our core we're a very maternal business and um like everything good i've ever done has been powered by women and together we come up with these ideas and these campaigns and bits and pieces and when you're doing those campaigns it is really easy to give up as soon as you start getting three or four papers giving you a whooping for like weeks then um it's definitely easy to tap out so how did you cope with well because i had great people around me going no no you ain't tapping out we're gonna do it like so so like you know i've i've got quite a large amount of people that would take bullets for me i think i'm one of those bless you i feel like i would yeah well you've helped me very much in the past with various things that i've done and it really helps so i guess what i'm trying to say is like i'm not i'm not i'm as fallible as anyone else i have good days and bad days like generally i'm a glass half full generally i'm very positive generally i've got very good energy but also sometimes i get like like down and low and and and i just want to tap out so in you have to surround yourself by people that can comfort support protect and allow you not to tap out because it's not the right thing to do so i you know i kind of yeah i think um good people shared values um like i know i employ lots of people that could probably do better working for other people but probably earn more working for other i mean i pay well but like like they could be doing all kinds of wonderful things but i think generally speaking most of the people that work for me do it's a nice job it's a lovely place to work um but we together all get to do things that make a bit of difference and change the world and and make a bit of a difference and i think that matters to certain people a lot and so I've been very lucky for that but the campaigns are tough I mean I must say what we did eight school dinners was 18 months of my life I was still quite well known at that point and we were in multiple schools across Greenwich and most people were most people were not helpful and that's parents grandparents kids um a large enough proportion of of teachers and um and surprisingly um probably more head teachers than less like yeah because yeah yeah and i'd give you an example like and and this is not me complaining this is just the reality yeah um the concept of change anywhere but specifically in a school but anywhere the concept of change is really tough for people they hate it yeah um and it's like no i can't do that well we're going to do this we're going to take this i'm going to move it over there and if we do that we can change the flow of students and we get more students through and then we can feed more students and then they don't have to do like we're trying to come up with solutions operational solutions to feeding 1600 kids in 45 minutes right so no no no no mess you know and then you go down the road to a less equipped school um with a head teacher like it's like yeah we're gonna yes yes yes yes yes and so it's really amazing for me to sort of see clearly two great head teachers yes but one that was can do and one that was calm yes and and it was amazing because it literally came to one moment when i think it was the sun wrote a piece or the daily mail one of the two and they just seen the first documentary and they were all in they were like they loved it it was like really they loved it and it was like this big double page spread and the minute that all the naysayers saw that double page spread in black and white everyone changed within 10 hours oh wow after 18 months of shit frankly like like like awkward that's so interesting yeah annoying unhelpful so so i mean i guess the lesson there was like oh my god i mean i know it's obvious but the power of the press yes and look it's not that me and you were going to whinge about the negative of course everything has a negative yes but actually the press is really useful it's really powerful always said that and and and the press aren't always going to love you and they're not going to always believe in you but i think like if i've tried to not lie to them ever and even if they don't like me it doesn't matter because even if they don't like me they can still trust me yes um or believe me so important so i think um i really learned a lesson about like how powerful the press were to then allow me because we couldn't get anything with government but as soon as that story ran the teachers changed the heads changed the parents changed the kids didn't change um but we could get into government in three weeks but you know i feel like it has changed the whole landscape of food and schools it really has and you know the big thing i was i was looking at dates and stuff with you and you did that ted talk in what 2010 yeah and you know you were talking about ultra processed foods you're the og guy like you know and look at look at us now it's like become so thank you um i do want to i'm gonna i'm gonna wrap up um slowly here because i want to talk about in your own time you and jules oh my god but you are just the most extraordinary beautiful success story and i and now i've heard a bit about trevor and sally and how much that meant to you i can understand um how important like your whole family are you know you've got five beautiful kids um i love jules it's quite in the background and she's done that oh she's the rock right yeah she's definitely the rock and she's like she's got incredible instinct she's incredibly kind very funny um but um and i know it's very funny i love her to bits um but you know she's she's also like you know she's uh i don't i can't really talk about it for her but she she has neurodiversities that make her life really interesting and really challenging and of course there's positives but there's loads of things that But, like, you know, she makes us the way that we are.

54:43And I'm very grateful for Jules. Can we just talk about how young you were when you met? 18. Oh, my God. Yeah, 18 years old. So what was it that just taught me through meeting Jules? Like, what made you, what gave you the coup de foudre? Oh, my goodness. Well, she was just very beautiful and pure and just gorgeous and sort of like natural and just like, I don't know, just quite quirky, quite clumsy. Kind of cute. Yeah, very cute. Very cute. And she was like, she was always like the odd dresser. She wore really cool clothes, like bonkers stuff, that really our part of Essex wasn't really ready for.

55:33She'd always have the piss taken out of her. Then literally about four to six months later, they'd all be wearing it. Yes, she's confident. Super early, yeah. I remember going on dates with her, and we'd go past building estates, and there'd be all the geezers out of the scaffolding, and they'd just look at her, and they'd go, oh, yeah, and they'd got these long legs and these big boobs, and they're like, and all they could say was, fashion, fashion. It's like, is that the best you can do? It's like, they just didn't know. She just, because she had kind of like, had been working in Japan and she was like in some mad outfit and like, she looked brilliant.

56:08But yeah, she's very cool and an amazing mum. I mean, honestly, I don't really know Jules that well, but I know a tiny bit about like your family and I've heard you talk about and I've been to your house and everything. and five kids in itself is um but your kids i feel like are a team um and you know when you were talking about inter-sibling rivalry for me that would be yeah the most painful thing yeah well i think i think that kind of carnage and that chaos just happened from not a stable yeah safe family yeah and and um it doesn't take much really for us to revert back to animals and do you know what i mean it's sort of like so i think i when you come from a loving family that's secure um you don't realize that you don't know that there's a whole set of emotions and scenarios that actually exists and is actually normal to a certain proportion of people around that sort of inter-family jealousy and and just like and and you i and obviously i i guess i can call myself an expert because i did it with you know hundreds of young people you are but i saw the same patterns happening every year yeah so you know obviously from you know we had a like a a duty of care to our young people but sometimes you have to sort of say you've got loads of time to love your mum right we need to keep you as focused on home and as far away from family for six months if you get over the next six months you'll be in a different place and you'll be able to cope with this stuff that's going on and so that that was a real fascinating you know and it did and it was able to work and and i have to say like um i'm very proud like going back to 15 obviously um we were graduating 80 85 of all our students and like six years six years later when we did a check the same proportion was still in the industry and um and although we trained them all the same they all went into different parts of the industry um some michelin some delis some pizzerias some posh restaurants some on boats some in other countries i mean like i i remember like when um like i i took a couple of students over to la they didn't even have passports because because um uh jennifer anderson phoned up and wanted me to go and brad pitt was a fan of naked chef and i was his 40th birthday present so jen phones up the restaurant keep putting the phone down on her because we didn't believe it was her so but obviously eventually through agents and stuff but but she asked if i could cook his 40th birthday and i'm like yeah so i took two students with me can you imagine never flown in their life virgin upper class in the pajamas before they've even taken off at the bar for the whole journey cooking in la for like you know all the people you would imagine around the table amazing oh my god how brilliant yeah it was good it's a good time and we had it for 17 years 17 years we had it so it's a good go good innings I really want to finish on the idea I want to just big up Jules as well because there is something like very confident you've got to be a confident woman to be married to a man who's so hugely successful and that you also big her up well I probably haven't got as many opportunities to big her up really this is a really nice one yeah good and she deserved to be big yes because it's tough yeah no i mean i think it's probably not tough at home but the public perception you know but you are a partnership you are a team yeah no no totally and i think like and look as happy as we are i think on our on our 25 year journey of marriage like there's still loads more we can get right you know and i think there's always stuff and i think being 50 this may kind of like creating more opportunities for these kind of moments and those kind of moments.

1:00:09And obviously when you're in the woods with five kids, you know, whether it's nappies or sort of teenage years or sort of GCSEs or... How old is River? River's nine. So we're kind of getting pockets of freedom. Yeah, pockets of freedom, yeah. God, I bet that's nice. Yeah, it's really nice. But like, you know, I do feel like that I'm still getting to know Jules. That's nice. You know, I think there's, I still feel I'm getting to know stuff I didn't know about her. Yeah. How is that possible? But you're both growing. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Together. And I think, like, you know, I'm excited to create more opportunities for nice moments and travel and little, you know, we're finding these little places where we love and we're so happy.

1:00:57It's like, cool, let's do it again. Yeah. So I think life's a bit like that. And time on your own is really funny, isn't it? because like you get in the car and the plane or whatever and you're like oh my god the change is so sort of the dynamic suddenly is like hot and classy and yeah so for instance like jules is like mad into elvis right it's like it's pretty well recorded it's like it's not a healthy so we we got we got married like all those years ago we on a week then we got married again on the first like posh holiday we ever had yeah um which was in the Maldives and he was like oh that's nice 24 years it was supposed to and then on 25 years we went on a road trip in LA to Las Vegas and then to Palm Springs and she she set up getting married in Elvis's the place where Elvis got married so it's like three marriages that's good that's cool though to get married it where Elvis again it's like I think everyone thinks we've got a disease of marriage and of course every time you get like yeah that means they're getting divorced it's like they're just but um it's like really it's like yeah elvis married us again oh my god that's so good now listen jamie i've got a little surprise for you so we um contacted poppy what and um we said could you just like kind of just give us a little note to read out to your dad okay she's done something kind of extraordinary actually all right but i'm gonna read it to you she's quite a good writer she's an extremely good writer okay don't are you gonna get me in bits i don't know but this is this is this is beautifully hi dad hi when i was asked to write about the impact you've had on our lives so many things came to my mind it's funny when you're younger it's hard to fully appreciate everything your parents do for you.

1:02:51But as I've grown up and started to become my own person, I've come to realise just how much of an influence you've had on me and my siblings. To put it lightly, your impact has been profound. I've always felt lucky to have your steady, unwavering support as a dad. There was never a time I doubted that I could pick up the phone and ask for your help. You've taught us to be ambitious, to push our confidence, still a working process for all of us, but no one has encouraged it more than you, to value hard work and to always stay humble. Growing up in a family as wonderfully mad and unique as ours could have gone a very different way.

1:03:33But the way you and mum raised us, kindness is at the heart of everything. It's shaped who we are. I know the younger ones will grow up feeling inspired by all you've done, but right now I know for certain that Daisy and I already are. I think that's a huge reason why we've chosen jobs that reflect the values you've instilled in us. Thank you for letting us be so open, for accepting all our differences and for championing the quirks that make us who we are. Thank you for believing we're capable of more than we think ourselves and for doing everything in your power to make us the best version of ourselves.

1:04:14Above all, I think what's had the biggest impact on me is watching your relationship with mum. Growing up with you both as a team has shaped how I carry myself in my own relationships. You've shown us that nothing is ever completely smooth sailing, but you both seem to weather whatever life throws your way and through all the tough times have come out stronger on the other side with lots of laughs in between we all love you lots and are so proud of everything you're doing poppy oh bless her that's beautiful isn't that so thank you what a surprise and she's been ghosting me this week as well i've messaged her three times and she hasn't replied that's probably why um but you know that idea of inspiring your kids with the relationship that you have is really special yeah yeah we're very very blessed but they are yeah like i mean it's it's i think um uh being a parent's really hard isn't it yeah and and what is good and what does good look like and and i think and then life is also really hard and i think once you get to 40 you start to see and sniff a few things and you get to 50.

1:05:29How hard was 50 for you? Well, I was quite excited about 50 because it feels like, I think 40 was quite hard. Because in my 30s I went to a lot of weddings and in my 40s I went to a lot of funerals and then I got used to lots of funerals and I didn't like that. But I also think if there is a good way to look at that negative, um it more and more life becomes about different ways of seeing or visualizing or appreciating gratitude do you know what i mean like and and and seizing the moment and um and also that you know even if you're just trying to make as many nice things you know like i'm pretty good but i'm not i mean i still don't you know there's things i want to do better um in lots of ways and like so the little things that you do the little things you say to people it's like having enough clarity of mind to notice i still my my jaws is really good at noticing other people and their feelings and their little body languages i'm i'm i'm okay jamie um but uh you're actually pretty fucking good yeah i've got to tell you i'm sorry for swearing but you are very you are a very emotionally intelligent man yeah thank you And I always feel like there's more to learn for all of us.

1:06:54But, I mean, you've led an incredible life and you've made such a huge impact on so many people in every single way. And I just want to thank you, basically. I was laughing because I was telling somebody earlier, I think I've got 28 of your 30 books. i honestly feel like i i don't have any other and i'm quickly gonna finish by saying congratulations on this i think today is publication day and this is very exciting yeah so actually believe it or it's a really good one yeah and i you know this is what we all want to be we want to be healthier and eat better and you've made that easy for us so thank you from the bottom of all of our hearts I wanted to, the programme and the book, I wanted to be something that, like, even if you missed it on telly, like, please, like, do the thing when they watch it on more four or whatever.

1:07:53Catch up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, because there's some really great tools to, I think if you say to a lot of people, are you all right? It's funny, we started the show really unconventional. It's like, how are you? Are you all right? But no, are you really all right? it's like actually if you say it's the right person it's like really and i think a lot of people don't feel a hundred percent yeah they don't feel 80 or 70 like there's a lot of people that feel very lost and um dare i say it because culturally britain is in its unique brilliant but also place where unlike the french we haven't got cooking in our genetics as we used to have because of certain things like the industrial revolution blah blah blah but like and because we don't teach it at school because cooking is this thing that feels like it's far away from us so the cooking is hope the cooking is choices the cooking is um this ability to control some things in your life when maybe you can't control lots of things in your life um so i really hope that people tune into the show and i think from the book's point of view i've tried to break down complex things into really simple ways for regular normal people to smash it from the supermarket uh and so i really i really like i really like that i mean i think for the first time ever actually in there there's a like um there's like a two-week reboot um i think they call it something else they call it a kickstarter kickstarter so it's basically yeah it's like and i it sounds like a sales pitch which it is i'd love you to buy the book but the but um but uh i i think um if you don't feel great if you think you can be better honestly truly um i genuinely if you can do lunch and dinner there's breakfast in there as well but i would say do lunch and dinner a few weeks right just get a little bit of a fast in do lunch and dinner they're not just nice recipes there's some surprises and there's some comfort things in there and stuff that you'll know but the behind the recipe and the food is chemistry yes and the chemistry is diversity and it's giving you the things that your extraordinary body needs and I can pretty much guarantee you if you don't feel a hundred percent it's because like most other people in britain you're only averaging two to three portions of fruit and veg a day everyone's saying eat five bullshit it's seven to ten yeah i love right and you'll smash that if you follow the plan great and if you can do two weeks because essentially what you're doing and somebody are you saying that if they can do two weeks they will feel a difference look it's it's science if the chances are right so i in that two week plan the kickstarter right i the diversity of proteins carbohydrates fibers fruit veg nuts seeds herbs right it's going to be much cheaper than going getting like a an app takeaway thing whatever you want to call it it's going to be a fraction of the price of that okay so you can do it you should do it if you can do it religiously for two weeks i will be amazed if you don't feel invigorated i will be amazed if you don't feel i mean you've got if you want calorie deficit and you want to lose weight fine like i don't i don't I don't write diet books like that.

1:11:15And this is not a diet book. This is very nutritious food. But you've got deficit to play with. So if that's one of your objectives, use it. Use the benefits of fasting and your body's ability to heal better and let it do and concentrate on healing better. Give your body those two meals where you're nourishing, like vitamins, nutrients, fiber, hydrating yourself. And much better to hydrate through fruit and veg than just golloping loads of water. Do you know what I mean? I've drunk loads of water and I'm on the toilet all day. He's like, yeah, you're drinking loads of water. Hydrate more so through fruit and veggies and food that contains 80%, 90 % water.

1:11:56But I think if you can follow that, it will be very empowering to people. The proportion of people walking into the NHS and doctors around the country because of diet-related disease is phenom. Phenom. It's phenom. Britain's really unique. My passion is public health globally. Yes. Right? I've been to all but one of the blue zones of the world. Right? I've been up mountains. I've been on islands. I've been on peninsulas and basically where fast food hasn't got. No. Right? And that's embodied in that book. But Britain's really uniquely bad. Yes, I know. We're getting more aware, but it's been a slow journey.

1:12:40What you have to do is have control. And to have control, you need to learn a few skills. To learn a few skills, you've got to kind of follow things and have consistency. But really what you have to do is create a blue zone in your own home. Because you can't do your street. You can't do your town. You can't do your workplace. No. That's a lovely idea. Blue zone your own home. Yeah. And it rhymes. Damn it. Just flowed like that. Yeah. Look at us. We've done a thing, Jamie, you and I. Yeah. I would like to thank you from the bottom of my heart for coming here today. Well, it's so comfortable. I love seeing you.

1:13:15No, bless. Thank you. And give the kids a hug. I will. And Jules, an uncomfortably long one from me. Yeah, especially Poppy. Not especially. All of them get the same. But thanks again, Jamie. Thank you. I appreciate it. Jamie, everybody.

1:13:39Thank you.