Katherine Ryan on Feminism, Face Lifts & Controversial Parenting!

35:25And I thought, well, no, no. What do you mean? Like, we'll just. And he broke my heart. It was a very serious relationship. we got back together a few times but then ultimately it's really hard isn't it the get back together bit yeah and when you're a teenager everything's so amplified so that's why I'm like did I love him or was I going through puberty with my first love I don't know so he he attempted to reach out to you over the next while didn't he he did love that like of course he did of course I was waiting. But, you know, if you did love him and you always loved him, why didn't it rekindle in those first times when he contacted you?

36:09Were you like, no, you don't get to come back? He wasn't explicitly trying to come back. Also, it wouldn't have made sense. He had a life in Canada. He married someone else. They didn't have children, but he married someone else. And then I made a post. Well, I thought he was a red flag. My instincts were probably right. He probably is, like most men, a massive red flag. But I commented, oh, my first love got married today. I guess my husband and daughter tell me it's definitely over now. It was like a joke because I wasn't married, but I had Violet. And the joke was like, oh, he's moved on, so I guess it's done.

36:46But I had this family. family yes it was like um one of my first tweets i think and he responded 50 of marriages end in divorce katherine who comments that that's a red flag but their relationship by then was on the rocks i guess but yeah so like he was doing a little itched out another few times but i just thought it wasn't a tangible thing it was flirtatious but i was like yeah yeah yeah no but then at what point were you like yeah yeah yeah yeah well he started behaving in uh late 2018 like a single man online so we had mutual friends because we grew up together and i know his sisters and i saw his online presence um my my sexually frustrated girlfriends who've married their high school sweethearts they actually highlighted to me on the group chat have you seen Bobby's Instagram?

37:40I said, no, I don't follow. Bless the girlfriends. Yeah. Because they, they had seen Bobby's Instagram and I was like, no, I don't follow Bobby on Instagram. So then I followed him, which was an interaction, I suppose. Um, and I noticed Jim selfie after Jim selfie, like some real, the, the behavior of a man who was single. And then I went to Canada that December to film, who do you think you are? And we hadn't spoken. We still hadn't spoken. I I just watched his Instagram stories a few times. And for some reason, I knew that if I posted on my Instagram that I was going out in Toronto that evening with my sister, that he would come.

38:16I just knew he would. And I just posted, oh, I'm going to this place with my sister tonight. Anyone have any recommendations? And he turned up in the pub. He just turned up. Yep. He didn't message you to say he was turning up. He had messaged like, why don't you go to this other place? But I didn't go there. I was like, I'm not going there because I was going to this place with my sister. So he did send one message, yes. and then he came to the pub and then we had a one night stand that went horribly wrong oh no why because now we have all these kids oh that was not the game i just thought it would be funny to shag him and it was funny serious yeah did you get pregnant no like very quickly yeah we were married nine months later and then yeah but it wasn't my intention to do that because I really did enjoy being single I did and I never fancied myself as someone who would be married and live in this nuclear family but yeah you just were really still in love I guess and wait wait what was that first night like then if you were back with somebody that you really love that you physically knew Yeah.

39:26Wow. Really good physical chemistry with him. Yes. And then, I mean, like, I don't want to take it to. No. But to be, like, getting off, getting off with someone when you're a teenager. Yes. I don't think a lot of teenagers, women have orgasms. No. I don't think they do. No. And I was like, what? It shocked me. Yeah. What is this boy? Yes. He was. That's chemistry. Yep. and then I never really did again until we're back so yeah he's like we have sexual chemistry and then also I just left him and he messaged me the next day which I don't know I've not really been on the dating scene but I don't think boys do that and he was just no nonsense yeah um he was like I want to have kids and get married I feel like and and a man he was 35 and I was 35 and a man was like I think I've missed out on that because I'm 35 and I was like what haven't you met men you could be 95 and start your family with some like catalog model and he was like no I'm he's very sensible and traditional and not a pedo crucially you know he's like I want to have a wife and a family and a house and kids and I worry sometimes that I've missed out on that and now I know why I hadn't done that and I want to do it with you.

40:47And so I think when people are dating at any age, older, younger, I think they're encouraged to hold back, to play games, to be coy. And Bobby was not. He was like, yeah, let's do this as soon as we can. What I like about the story about you and Bobby is that you are both small town originals. like you started in a small town and you have that brilliant combination of kind of slightly pining after a slightly traditional yeah a traditional life and that is a shared value that's really a big one I think it's really beautiful when different cultures come together And I think it can work and it's amazing.

41:37But Bobby and I are from such a similar culture. And when I say culture, I don't mean Canadian or white or anything like that. I just mean you can have a culture even existing in your home. Yes. We went to the same school and grew up on the same road and we have all the same friends. You know what I mean? Like we are culturally in a way very similar that it did make for a lot of easy shorthand. It sort of made me understand arranged marriages and things like that because when you have such a similar background, there are so many things in your marriage that you just don't have to discuss. There's not, you know, because I've dated people from different faiths and different backgrounds and different countries.

42:17and that works for people, but you do have to negotiate. We don't. We just kind of read each other's minds. We are brother and sister, potentially. Soulmates. It is a worry. We've got so much in common. Grandparents, yeah. And so you guys got together over in Canada but got married and then he came back here and he lives with you here. Yeah, we got together in Canada. He came to London to visit on like a tourist visa. Then we got married in Copenhagen at 11 a.m. And I went to work that night and did a gig in London. Wow. We didn't have a wedding. We just like went to a courthouse. And then, yeah, we live in London with our kids, with our 45 kids.

43:02Yes. I mean, you've got three and one more on the way. Overdue, Davina. Overdue. Yeah. They won't let me go past Friday. Now, hold on. What date is it today? Oh, no. Okay. Because there's a full moon, but it's not until the beginning of November. Okay. No. No, you're not going to be. No. So they're not going to let you go past Friday. Mm-hmm. Induced on Friday? Yeah. God, I am so lucky to be talking to you today. You're not. I am. I'm going to take that. I was going to be privileged today. I would have come regardless. How cute would it have been if I had a newborn and we could have this chat?

43:39And you could hold the newborn. And I could be drunk. Oh. You could be drunk. Oh, my God. Oh, well. But we're having this fat chat instead. No, you look absolutely glorious. And I'd like to talk about the way you felt about yourself, because you have mentioned a couple of times.

44:00When did you decide that you were going to... I know that we talked about sorting your teeth out, and that was something, like one of the first things. Which everyone did. It was just normal type races. In Canada and America, you were way, I mean, it was the British teeth situation was a joke with Americans. We did, yes. For many, many years, you'd look at like British people go, what the heck? But nowadays, I think we've all kind of got into old kids get orthodontics and braces. But when you got your job at Hooters, you were 19. Can you just explain to anybody that's watching that's British that might not know what Hooters is?

44:42So they do think it's a topless restaurant and it's not. It is very much like being a cheerleader. We have sports on TV and beer and chicken wings. And because I was a corporate trainer, I can tell you the entire introduction of Hooters. It was created in 1983, just like me, by these guys in Florida. They were businessmen and they had a secretary, the original five they were called. and they had a secretary who would run for exercise and she would wear socks, like sports socks, and little orange shorts and a vest. And she was very all-American and open and friendly, not sexual. It wasn't like a stripper, nothing to do with like sex work.

45:26She was just a wholesome girl who was sexy to them. And that's what they modeled the Hooters girl on. And then they added the tacky branding of the owl. I tell people I worked in an owl sanctuary if they get too judgmental about it, but it's not a strip club. And if it were, we're very positive about sex work now, but it wasn't. It was kids eat free on weekends. And what I loved about Hooters is that it was a brand I recognized. I wanted to be that kind of secretary. I wanted to be the kind of wholesome, bouncing young woman who men went, oh, isn't she lovely? I thought that that was a place where I could learn that, but I didn't.

46:06I was still this, like still mouthy and still provocative. And there was a comedy club next to the Hooters and that's where I would go. And that's where I started comedy because I kept getting in trouble at Hooters for my smart mouth. I was fired like a few times for different things. Just having, just things like that. Just accidentally causing political upheaval in the restaurant. and again I think this is all contributing towards you having a thicker skin so when you got fired for this kind of thing how did you how did you feel were you like horrified yeah but also like oh well or were you not oh well I cried and cried and cried and not because I was fired because I knew I'd weasel my way back so I was such a waitress I never wanted to hurt people And I was so mortified that I didn't like to be in trouble.

46:56Again, male energy. This boss screamed in my face and was really cutting, like, to the core of what I knew was wrong with me. He was like, why are you so weird all the time? Why do you have to say stuff like that? And in front of everyone in the restaurant, he goes, not everybody gets it, Catherine. And that has been the soundtrack of my whole life. Not everybody gets it. I know. I'm like an acquired taste sometimes. That's why we love you. Well, that's what ended up being my strength. Yes. Even looking a little cartoony and having a long face ended up being... No, I do. Jimmy Carr taught me that.

47:36He goes all like successful entertainers have a bit of cartoony thing about him. And with Jimmy, you would say like teeth and Lego hair and the suit. And what's yours? My nose. Your nose? You have a lovely nose. Yeah, I love my nose. But it's not a nose. They call me a puff nose. Yeah, fine. Good. And all the tools that you try to throw away when you are assimilating and you just want to be invisible and young. That's, again, what's powerful about being middle-aged and plus is you recognize, oh, those were my tools. All those things I tried to get rid of to assimilate are the things that made me special.

48:10Yeah, so he screamed at me in my face, but I got my job back. so I'm I'm just thinking about Catherine 19 Hooters um enjoying being a feminine people appreciating you probably making quite good tips great tips um making good money feeling the confidence of that I um as as a young girl myself I can fully appreciate how you felt I wanted to be feminine, look nice, the clothes that I would wear clubbing. You know, I wore those for myself and for the entertainment of other people, like look mad, wear outrageous outfits, be controversial. Look at me, look at me. I was quite, I was a peacock. You would have been a Hooters girl.

48:58I would have totally been a Hooters girl. We were all very like-minded. Yes. Girls who, and we created this matriarchy where there were men who would come down from the office and yell at you every once in a while but day to day we were kind of untethered we ran the restaurant we were smart we collaborated i got to spend all day with women yes the men at hooters weren't that lecheress at all like i'd worked in other bars and restaurants where they were worse i was gonna say if you wanted to if you wanted to be leched at you wouldn't work at hooters or you wouldn't go to hooters because it wasn't that kind of bar i've i've been to america quite a lot yeah and And I've been to Hooters and it's not that energy.

49:39I was latched at more walking from college to Hooters than in Hooters. Yeah, it's interesting. But yeah, all the girls there were really fun and layered and quite smart and just different. Maybe from small towns and came to the big city and just wanted to hula hoop and golf caddy. You're roughly the same age. Yeah. We were all like late teens, early 20s. Wow. You're not really allowed to work there beyond that. And a real solidarity. Yes. They're still my friends. I'm still in contact. Really? Yeah. They did a reunion that I couldn't go to because I was here. But my sister went. Oh, my God. My sister worked there.

50:20Yeah. It's good. It was a sisterhood. You talked about the comedy place next to it and that you'd gone there. But did you go there first and see some comedy and think, wow, this is amazing? How did you decide that you thought you could have a go at that? Because I think, am I right in saying you were 20? I mean, that feels to me, when I think about my daughters, 22, 24, unbelievably young and brave. Like, talk about a begin again, Hooters, and then going to stand up comedy. It's like, wow. Well, one thing about moving from a small city to a big city to begin again is you're totally anonymous. I had never been anonymous.

51:02Yes. So it was the opposite. Okay. So in your town, to do something extraordinary, everybody would know. Yeah. But when you move to a town, a city, suddenly it's like, no one knows who I am. I can be whatever I want. Right. And the last thing I was famous for was my mom's controversial relationship. And if I had done stand-up comedy in my town, first of all, I don't think it existed. But secondly, people would have been out for blood. You know, I would have been ruthlessly made fun of. But when you go to this big city and it was so multicultural and it was amazing. And so it was the opposite of seeking attention.

51:43It was like, I'm going to try to do this thing that I respect. I'd only seen it on television, maybe a few times live. I'd seen stand up. And also I knew that, well, I want to be a good girl. At that time, I still I didn't want to be a comedian. I wanted to be a Hooters girl. I thought I might open a Hooters franchise one day. I didn't know what I would do. I was just navigating being 19, 20. So I thought I will exercise my demons at this comedy club. It will be fun for me. I'll do it anonymously. I never told anyone I was doing it and it was fun. But then I ended up finding a tribe there who were the alternative comedians, the like queer community in the comedy club, the very few women in the comedy club.

52:23So it was cool. I mean, let's talk about how few women there are in comedy. I mean, the stats are crazy, I think. the number of female comedians there are in comparison to men. Why do you think that is? I think it's changing now because all comedians are having to enter the circuit in a different way. So they're coming through on social media. They can make videos. And I think that is a great equalizer. I think social media is very democratic, really. A young woman or a person from a different socioeconomic background or any mixed ethnicity person kind of has a similar chance because there aren't any gatekeepers with social media.

53:05It's just if you get a following, you get a following. And then commissioners on their sinking ship that is television, they're like, wow, get these influencers on the panel shows that are remaining. But in my day, I think it was almost dangerous to do the circuit in the way that men could do it. So they would take night buses and they would earn very little money in the beginning stages of carving out their career. And they'd be out late at night. They'd be walking late at night. And then if you get a little bit more known, then you publish where someone could come kill you on a Friday night.

53:44Right. Like, it is quite vulnerable to be like, hey, I will be walking around the back roads of Cambridge at 9 p.m. Come kill me October 17th. So I just think women are more hypervigilant about stuff like that. Some men would sleep on the floor in these comedian houses, like four of them. We don't have the same safety, or we certainly didn't at that time. um a lot of predatory behavior was probably going unregulated at that time where it wouldn't now is kind of a different world but also i think it was and i'm from a place of privilege because again by then i didn't really care what anyone thought of me by then i was pretty impervious to criticism impoverished i was gonna say that too and impoverished and impervious to criticism.

54:37But I think there are women who did feel quite knocked back when a booker would say, oh, no, we have enough women. We don't need a woman. Or like, women aren't funny. Or you'd be brought on stage by a comp hair who would apologize for your gender before. Like, oh, sorry, the next act is a woman. That would happen a lot. Oh, my God. I think Jo Brand went on in between exotic dancers in the men's working clubs when she started yeah and like it it is a different ball game now i i think i'm really positive and peaceful about the fact that it's changed yeah and i feel badly complaining because i had a pretty easy time of it compared to some why i don't know i think i think looking back because i'm confronted by old videos now because I've been on television in this country since 2012.

55:33I think, oh, from a third party perspective, I'm like, she's quite different. I think being different gets people's attention. Being young and pretty probably at that time really helped as well. I see her and I go, she's quite young and pretty and says these things and like puts the whole thing off balance. I was different. Yes. I value that. I think, oh yeah, you'd be stupid not to think that had something to do with it. Were you not told, like, don't look so good? Yeah. Yeah. Not on television. Television loves looking good. But in the clubs, there were certainly bookers and other comedians, mostly male, I mean exclusively male comedians.

56:19Yes, yes. Who would be like, oh, you don't want to dress like that. Because I always dressed, I thought I was dressing respectfully for the audience. I thought they're paying to come to a comedy night. And I think you should be the best dressed person there. And for me, I can't wear a tuxedo or, you know, I would just dress up. And I liked hair and makeup and glam. And I had those values. And then bookers would be like, you don't want to dress like that. Because the men will be distracted by you and the women will hate you. I was like, what? And that was such a foreign, coming from Hooters, where we were very celebratory.

56:52of each other and it wasn't catty or jealous. I was like, what do you mean women will hate me? Which never turned out to be true. Even now, there will be women who are brought in kind of accidentally. It's like Trojan horse where they go, oh, I really like that top. I think like what color lipstick did you have on that show? I like that. That's sparkly. And they're kind of brought into comedy because they think you're wearing something nice. I don't know. I don't care who comes in and why. I think people are very complimentary of glam. They like it. And the boys are doing it now too. Like Joel Dahmet on your hit show.

57:33Yes. He looks good. Yes. And I just think it's so fascinating. Who is it that is having a go at women for wanting to look good? because it you know a bit like I was saying half nun half wild child it's like it is possible to be half feminist half trad wife in a kind of funny sort of way like I want to well it's it's almost at odds with itself that statement but I know plenty of women who absolutely a hundred percent agree with equal rights and equal gender, you know, close the gender gap and how important that is. But at the same time, enjoy dressing feminine, looking feminine, owning their femininity, which is sometimes seen as pandering to the opposite sex, but actually lots of women do it for themselves.

58:39I mean, you've talked about like wanting to take care of yourself. I'm assuming like what, why, why do you want to look nice? I think it's, I think that there are men and women who have internalized misogyny. So many women have internalized misogyny and I think they can be forgiven for that because we've all had to navigate the same world and there are huge systems in place to deliver that messaging. Even if you still look at pop stars, they look like children. It's not a coincidence that both Sabrina Carpenter and Ariana Grande look like they're 11 years old and lingerie. Yeah, I haven't thought about that.

59:18I mean, they're both very talented and I don't want to diminish. Yeah, they're really talented. But I do think Hollywood is gross now in many ways. I look back at some of the movies and the influences that I had, and then it makes sense that we all buy into this beauty industry so much. And this toxicity propels, you know, somebody somewhere to get very rich and also to keep us slightly underfoot. I think it works for people. I think patriarchy works for men. They benefit from it, whether or not they're active participants. They benefit. So I think everybody subscribes to this system. And I don't blame any woman for whatever her level of participation is in it.

1:00:00But I think it's a mistake to assume that when we dress well or we want to get Botox or filler or plastic surgery or breast implants or dye our hair or have like a unique, authentic fashion presence, that that is anything to do with the male gaze. Yes. And I think that system, patriarchy, whoever is deploying it at that time, loves to think of everything in the male gaze. Like, well, a man won't marry you if you do. Oh, well, you're trying too hard to marry that. Oh, well, you, I'm not, I'm not actually thinking about you or your feelings or your appraisal of what I'm doing at all. And men will always say, oh, you know, we don't, we don't like lip filler.

1:00:46We prefer, I'm not doing it for you. Yeah, don't care. I don't care what you make. I don't care if you live or die.

1:00:56So I'm a great, great passionate advocate of beautiful lingerie. I never wear a neutral bar and a sensible pan ever. I would hate to show you my underwear ring. Well, but I, but you, like, this is, I think, where I'm at now. Like, you do whatever you want to do, but this makes me feel good about myself. and what I love is saying I love this about you and I love the fact that you do that and I love the fact that you don't want to wear fancy pants underwear I might want to you might want to after you've had this baby I do want to yeah good well done and I also want to go on a Zempick if that's what it takes next year and I want to have a facelift because people are doing that younger and there's nothing I can do about my nose a lot of people think I've had a nose job I haven't I wouldn't choose this nose this bit is too long but I don't think that I can have a lip lift just because my nose is so like Dr.

1:01:53Seuss but I don't want to do that from that but again no because I'm not a feminist yes I just think it's fun I think I have a healthy attitude toward all those things which is why I'm happy to be joked about like you know oh Kevin Ryan's had all this plastic surgery I actually haven't had any plastic surgery on my face I even haven't had Botox and fillers for a long time because I've been so pregnant. But because of pregnancy, my face is like big and then small and then big and then small and then big and then small. So I will do something about it. And when I do, I'll tell everyone that I did it.

1:02:25Yes. Not because I'm proud of it or ashamed, but because I can exist in the middle and just be honest about like, yeah, I wanted to do that. And do I hate my face every day I walk past you know shop windows and think oh god I'm a monster no but I'm an entertainer and I think if people are going to come see me on tour they deserve the best most glamorous version of me because it's part of showbiz and why wouldn't I give it to them and also the last thing I'll say about surgery unless you have any follow-up questions is that my mom is 65 and I gifted her a facelift for her birthday last year, which is a risky gift if someone doesn't want it.

1:03:11But she does. She did want to. I know my mom well enough to know she'd want it. And she speaks very openly. Her attitude is the same as mine. Because I recognized that it's first of all, it's harder, I think, for a woman born in 1960, who's like traditionally so beautiful to age because of the values that were instilled for that generation. But also, my mom knew that beauty is a depreciating asset. And she would say things like people go, oh, happy birthday. You're one year older. My mom would go, well, I suppose it's better than the alternative. Like she knows that it's better to be old than to die.

1:03:55But in a way, the joke is for that generation, not much better. Like how dare you? How dare you age and become invisible? And I noticed how lonely it felt for my mother not to be missing out on that gaze and that constant, like, very toxic white van attention that she received all her life. but lonely I think for certain women to look in the mirror and not recognize their best friend and that is just yourself your own countenance that you've gotten to know throughout all these years looking back at you it changes so much and I think that's why people have big life events like a loss or a divorce or something where they get a little bit older and they just they're not trying to impress, you know, Colin from accounts or anyone online.

1:04:49It's just, it's a return to something to go, oh yeah, there she is. And to see her own face in the mirror again. And my mom looks great and she loves it. So it's just fascinating though, how much, how anti any kind of surgery society seems to be and how insistent they are on shaming people or yeah who have it and it's it makes it very hard for other women to do that and it's sad because you've seen how it made your mum feel yeah she loved it and she would have been fine without it Yes. It was like a fun thing. And I think when you talk about having a facelift, for example, you remove the shame because what are people going to say about you?

1:05:44Yeah, I did. Yeah. I mean, that is another thing I think about getting older, that it is easier to just go. Yeah, I did. but equally I really admire the women who don't if you feel like your new nobody nobody should have to no tell anybody anything they shouldn't have to but I think if you do take the step to have like a facelift it depends on who you are if you're me and I'm very open about everything if I were to do that and then deny it I think that would not be authentic to me and then also So it might create a space where women who felt as though I was always honest with them were like, oh, well, how come my jawline isn't doing that after four kids?

1:06:32And maybe if I use that cream. Yes, exactly. Oh, there's someone in particular who winds me up selling this neck cream. Yeah, right. Yeah, right, honey. Uh-uh. Before and after. No. You know. You can have creams lovely. We need moisturized. we need SPF, vitamin A is helpful. But to show me some of these wild transformations, I think, to be honest. One more big thing I really would like to talk to you about, which I am fascinated by parenting and how it affects our children. And I loved learning a bit about your parenting style and how that is shaping your kids' future. So could you just tell us a little bit about that?

1:07:22Yes. So I really believe in the early foundations of laying down a regulated central nervous system. Yes. And I think that we, so many adults of our generation are very sadly mentally ill. They have attachment issues. Yeah. And I don't blame anyone for that. It was a very different parenting style when we were all born. And a lot of us were left to cry. And it's a necessity for some people. I always say the caveat is I think parents, but a mother specifically, should prioritize her own mental health. We don't need anybody losing it. So if your child is in a safe place and they need to cry it out so that you don't walk it out into the street, then that's what you need to do.

1:08:11Fine. But if you can cope with it, I do believe in responding to small babies' needs immediately, carrying them as much as you can, having them with you as much as you can, co-sleeping with them, potty training them really young because it gives them agency and autonomy. That's amazing. of me but makes people really angry like any clip or any time that I speak about parenting and I think it is an extension of women's just anxiety anxiety and then projection of shaming each other for things I'm really not trying to shame a man I just want people to think outside the box and do things that work for their family and one of the things I've loved listening to you talk about is the potty training yeah i mean that is amazing it makes people so mad why why does it why would it make someone mad so i say that you should start potty training babies from almost birth yeah when i say potty training i think it gets lost in translation people go what do you mean and they get mad right away because they feel like well because i've got a three-year-old in a nappy you're saying that's my fault and i'm negligent and i don't love my child that's not saying it's kind of correct uh no no four look i just think there's a miscommunication somewhere along the way is i think that well-meaning very loving parents don't realize that when you put a nappy on a child and you can see that child going to the loo in the nappy you know they're going and they they use the nappy all the time to go to the loo you are training them to use a nappy to use a nappy.

1:09:48And if you are the kind of parent who has a nappy as a fail safe, especially for a newborn, I mean, a newborn doesn't know they're alive, but you take the nappy off at regular intervals and you put them, you hold them on a potty, you're training them to go in the potty. So whatever you do with your kids, whether you lavish them with attention or you ignore them, whether you potty train them or you don't, whatever you do, you're training them just by your behavior, whatever you choose or lack of behavior. So all I do is I remove the nappy as often as I can from about three months. And I'm telling you, I thought my first daughter was a genius.

1:10:23She was my favorite. How was she when she was fully out of nappies by like, honestly, 11 months, like before one. They've all been out of nappies fully by one. But I understand that there are limitations. People have to go to work. Kids are in a daycare setting or childcare. I get that. But the reaction that I get is people going well you're privileged and you have chefs and nannies and you well i don't i mean i do i have a nanny and i have a cleaner that comes twice a week but there's no chef oh that's bobby yeah okay so they're there i do have all that but i potty trained violet as a very financially insecure single mom i was taking her to work with me a lot i was looking at her a lot and i noticed cues from about like as soon as they start solid food you can see when a baby needs to do a poop.

1:11:10But by then, they have all these other skills. They're very self-aware, and they're stubborn, and they can walk, and they have already been trained to go in a nappy. But if you just interrupt that really young, they never think... That's like enough to... Yeah, and it's just easy. They just want to be clean. So many other countries do it. They did it for generations before we had nappies. It can be done. You don't have to do it. And for me, when I was very young and had Violet. I was not very young, 24, 25. Still quite young, really, isn't it? Quite young. I just put myself in her shoes. I was like, I wouldn't want to be in a situation where a stranger was ever changing my nappy.

1:11:48I wouldn't want to have a dirty nappy at all. So I just trained her. I didn't know about elimination communication, which is what it's called, and is practiced by so many people. I feel like a parenting book. I know, but it just makes people so angry. But it would help so many people. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's all it is. Like, I don't think there's much more to say than that. So I don't think I could parlay it into chapters. Because people do. Let's talk about that. I bet you could. For the right. We're going to take you out of the window. You're right. You know, it needs to be a book. It needs to be so many chapters and a signing fee.

1:12:26yeah so I want to talk TV with you because obviously you came over here you were a comic but like going into TV in comedy again when you did it when you started not that many women were on panels and things like that what was that like because things like have I got news for you to me would scare the bejesus out of me so what was it like for you it is an intimidating one because you have to know about the news and everything that's going on politically. And I definitely didn't. And to sit next to Paul Merton and Ian Hislop and have them so clever and all their writers are so clever. But I really enjoyed the challenge.

1:13:08And I think early days before I did Have I Got News For You, the first panel show that I did was 8 Out Of 10. Yeah, correct. And I really was so lucky to exist at a time when like that was a huge show and Sean Locke was on And it was just like so funny but so intimidating. The first day I looked around and I was like, I will never be as funny as these people. It wasn't that they were men. But just these people. I just won't be as funny as them. It was Hannibal Buress, Sean Locke. Wow. Was it John Richardson, Stephen Mangan, and a boy from The Voice who was adorable. They liked to have a celeb to mix it up.

1:13:45But he was funny too. And Jimmy. And then I thought, well, I can run or I can do it my way. And sometimes eight out of 10 cats would have subjects that I wasn't familiar with. I think FIFA. Or like the Greek financial crisis was a topic at one point. And I just did it in my own way. I said, I think I said, Greece and Keri Katona have a lot in common. They both get gas from Turkey. And they both, like, it was such a stupid joke. But like, I just found my little rhythm in any subject matter. And then people learned to accept me as like, oh, she's going to say it in her own way and it will be about celebrity culture somehow and it'll be a bit vapid, but it'll be kind of knowing and kind of caustic.

1:14:32And that's they didn't expect like a really cerebral political takedown from me. They were happy to have me talk about, you know, like Cheryl Cole. but I think I think that's what's so clever about you that you at each stage of your life it's almost like every single job that you've done every move that you've made every man that you've been with it's like who am I you are constantly saying be be true to yourself I think what we love about you is a real authenticity it doesn't matter you might hate you somebody might Like, oh, I can't do parenting. Yeah. But they know it's true. That's true. They know it's what you do.

1:15:16So you can't go anywhere with the truth. Yeah. Except back to the truth. That's what they say. You never have to remember what you say. Yes. If you just are authentically yourself all the time. I think authenticity is really the only thing that works in comedy uniquely. I think you can be, well, obviously an actor and be anyone. Be really inauthentic because you're a chameleon. You can be a presenter or a model or like a pop star. But if you're a comedian, I think if people don't believe you, that's the difference between. So there are lots of people who will come and see me on tour. And I feel so lucky and so surprised.

1:15:58Every time I tour, I'm like, oh, people are motivated to like get a babysitter, pay for parking, go to dinner, come and see me. They care what I have to say. and I think that's the difference. If you are a good comedian and you can tell jokes but you're just kind of doing an impression of a comedian. I see these people in the club sometimes. I'm like, well, they're really, really funny but nobody cares. Because it's not hitting. It's not. Because it's not real. Yeah. I can feel it. Mm-hmm.

1:16:28I want to go back to TV because you did this amazing sitcom. Did you write Duchess? I did write The Duchess, yeah. That it was really good, but it was one series. Yeah. Like, what happened? It's so, bring it back. There's space for it. Yeah. Or bring back a version of it. A version of it. I wrote The Duchess when I was single, and I loved being single. and I was confronting being on the wrong side of 35 like fertility wise and I thought what will I do about growing my family because this is when women start to hear those voices from doctors or whomever about egg freezing or about you know some some many now professional women at 35 have no children maybe they don't want children maybe they do but they have to decide their biological legacy right then and there.

1:17:25So I thought, wouldn't it be funny to have, I was a big fan of Kenny Powers at the time. It's a character from a show called Eastbound and Down, and I really recommend it. He's like angry all the time, but it's funny when he's angry. I thought this, I don't see a female character like that who swears and he's like, angry. I thought it would be funny to have an unlike female lead. Like Tony Soprano wasn't a good guy, but he was lovable. Everybody liked him. But I thought that was exactly what you gave us. I thought it was cool. It was brilliant. But I feel like everybody should go and watch it now.

1:18:01And it would be more relevant now. Well, actually, yeah. You were way ahead of your time. That's kind of you to say. Yeah. I think people really, the feedback I got, they didn't like how she was. She put people off. A villain. But I think to women. A female villain. I think women really loved it. Oh, good. And also, pointedly, I wanted her to be a single mother who had money for no reason. Because I see women portrayed, they have white wine and they're crying and they live in squalor and they're like, I'm a single mom. And I wanted this woman to just have money. Why? Why does she have money? What does she do?

1:18:42Pottery. People were so angry about that. Really well-meaning men would reach out and be like, but why does she have a flat? And I'd be like, why? You don't need to know why. Why does Ricky Gervais' character in Afterlife, who works for a small print magazine, live in a five million pound house in Hampstead? And his cheeky response to that is, oh, well, it was his wife's house. Okay, Ricky, but you didn't have to explain that at all in the series. we just let these men on television and in films and rom-coms like even when the the duchess character she got a boyfriend who was a dentist yes they are not remunerated fairly in this country she met a dentist when they went house shopping locations found us a house i was like how come he's allowed this house this dentist when we went shopping for a house it was like a four million pound house in kensal rise i was like but people got cross that a single mother had designer clothes it's really interesting isn't it loads of people would ask me that why why does she have money though and i went so that you ask me that question like just so that you're angry about yes god i think that's fascinating it was so weird they got so weird about it nice man how Oh dear, she's fascinating.

1:19:57Why does she have money? She's a pottery artist and a single mom. She's great. To piss you off. Yeah, exactly. Maybe she made good investments and she was dating the guy in the boy beard. I mean, let's just talk about your current project because The Real Housewives, mega. Speaking of wealth. Mega, mega. Yeah. And you are the perfect person to do this. It's like a reunion, right? where they're all kind of coming together to chat about what's going on. One's already gone out. We've got the next one next week. Yes. So what's that been like and what are they like and what's your experience of them?

1:20:35What have you learned? Insights. Well, for a start, we were not anticipating two parts. It was meant to be a one-part reunion and it just was very good. Yeah. These are interesting women to me because the Real Housewives franchise is about a group of friends who ultimately have a lot of ups and downs and a lot of drama and explosive moments. And they live this lavish lifestyle that so many of us are not used to seeing. You could be very wealthy and still not be used to the level of like castles and helicopters and jewels that you see. And the London Real Housewives, I mean, it's a different echelon.

1:21:14But at the end of the day, they have to come back together as friends. And that's what the reunion is about, to settle scores, to like show all the receipts, to work through all this trauma and leave as a group of girlfriends so that we can move on to next series. And they watched the episodes along with the rest of us. So they didn't get advance screening. So everything's fresh to them. They would watch it as it came out week by week on Hey You. And so there's a lot still brewing with them that they really wanted to get out. And I love it because Real Housewives of London passes the bedshell test.

1:21:48They're not talking about men like hardly ever this is women most of whom are over 40 over 50 where do we see a cast of all women of that age group on like primetime television not talking about their relationships with men they talk about all kinds of all kinds of very interesting things but not so much men and they're so relatable in the sense that i found they've got different traumas they've all got their own different attachment issues they've all suffered they've all struggled they many of them live in in a perceived shadow of perhaps their partner's wealth or achievements and that's difficult to navigate like i just i really loved digging into like what was going on with these housewives but on the surface it's like fighting and fun as well they do fight they can fight i I love your face.

1:22:45Like, I mean, I was going to ask you actually as a final question about what you would like your legacy to be. So, I mean, you're not going anywhere for decades, obviously. But in the future, have you ever thought or how would you like people to remember you? Like, who do you want to be? because you're somebody who assesses yourself so often. Like, where are you heading? Well, I think we're so lucky to have these moments of our lives captured forever on film or radio or podcasts because our descendants will be able to find a log of our lives for the first time ever. Women would lose their names.

1:23:40women would lose their history when I met Bobby on who do you think you are it's very difficult to trace the maternal lineage at all because these women just fade into the background until us and especially if you're on television or doing something like that so um I like to think that I'll be remembered as a witch like a real problematic badass I hope to get poorly behaved like in my older years get just worse and worse yeah yes yeah and i think you as well davina are a real like turning point and there's an indigenous um uh what's the word not psychology there's an indigenous you can tell i'm pregnant sometimes when i can't find words um a belief philosophy there's an indigenous philosophy that talks about ancestral pain ancestral trauma And it says that everything that you do affects seven generations behind you as well as seven generations ahead of you.

1:24:40And I love that because I think you and I are real like path movers, like changers of like whatever happened before. Women of this age now have this incredible opportunity to just shift it any way we want. And I'm the first woman in my family who purchased a house without a man. And I'm very problematic. And the women before me were too, but they didn't get credit for it. And we recently lost Diane Keaton. Oh. And I see videos of her just like little things that she did that weren't problematic. Even the pantsuits are provocative. The pantsuits were so good. A hat. A hat. Being a peacock. See me.

1:25:20So provocative. And her sitting on the edge of a Ralph Lauren runway is the clip I saw on my way here. And she's greeting all the models as though she knows them personally. And she's going, well done. And that's what I do. I was in Vegas.