Narcissism Expert: What Gaslighting Really Looks Like & Why It’s So Hard To Leave!

25:56Davina McCall:was because it's the way she survived. Yeah, I knew it was a survival. Yeah, but what we say is we're quite a long way from home and so if we can find a way to bring ourselves back to home that's the therapeutic work that I do with my clients. Can I just say what a lovely thing to be able to do. Yeah. This idea to be able to take someone home. It is the greatest privilege. Oh, and to watch someone grow in that way. And thinking back to my sister, what that would have done for her whole life, you know, going forwards. I mean, life-changing, right? Totally. You must know. How hard is it to kind of untrain someone who has, like when you're talking about this journey going from someone who has literally had to change themselves to survive a narcissist, how kind of long are we?

27:00Davina McCall:I mean, I know it's a bit hard for you to say because everybody's different. Everyone's different. But I genuinely think it can take about 18 months of concentrated work because we say that when a child doesn't feel loved, they don't stop loving their parent. They stop loving themselves. so I've got to work with them on that to start with we also quite naturally tend to defend our parents even though we know I did that of course there are clearly things that aren't right but our natural instinct is we've only got probably one or two or maybe three of the step or blended but so therefore we tend to defend them initially or we'll say look other people have had it much worse than me because yeah let's say that parent hasn't physically been violent or sexually being difficult or abusive then we kind of feel psychologically you know should I be complaining at all so there's all sorts of things that people will say initially there's defense mechanisms and it's it's really clever that as a kid you've come up with that but over time in therapy we begin to slowly just peel it back to the point where they can get a little bit more comfortable with accepting it wasn't okay yeah they did that I mean what a wonderful realization to realize that you were Grombed.

28:09Davina McCall:Yes. As a person. Yes. And people will often say, yes, but my mum or my dad had a difficult upbringing and they might have done or they were in the grip of addiction. Yes, absolutely. But what we say is it might explain it, but it doesn't excuse it. Yes. The difference there. Wow. And so that's also the work with gently helping someone come to terms with that, because then what does that also mean for them? If their parent is alive or their parent has passed, what does that mean and what do they want to do with it? What I can't do is sort of open Pandora's box and show them and then kind of leave it there.

28:43You're leaving them right in the middle of that pain. So that's why the work takes some time, because we need to be very gentle with these inner children, if you like, to help them begin to slowly come to terms with it and accept that that is what happened. And then where can I find the compassion for myself that I went through that as a kid, if that was the story that this person's had in front of me? same for someone's been married for 20 years to someone had children with someone who's a narcissist has worked for someone for 20 years yes beginning to actually accept what i've observed what i felt what i've seen what i know it's true i'm actually dealing with someone that's like that what the hell do i do with it yes yeah i mean i think um when you've been in an unhealthy relationship I guess of any sort with anyone yeah getting to a point where you can give yourself a

29:35Davina McCall:little hug and go oh cool that was a lot wasn't it like well done you I mean what a what a beautiful place to get to because I think when you're in it I mean it must be so mad I do god And Kathleen, it's just like quite difficult because there's so much I want to talk to you about. And I'm trying to navigate which kind of avenue I want to go down. I think let's let's park parents for a moment. Of course. Because I'd like to go to relationships where I want to talk about the word because the word gaslighting just came to my head. I was sort of thinking how mad you go when, you know, you must be like in this relationship and just thinking, what is going on?

30:23Davina McCall:I just feel I don't know which way I'm going. And the word gaslighting, I feel like, gets bandied about a lot all over the place. But what does it really mean? What it really means is the person. You are, in most senses, sound of mind. Yeah. As much as we can be. Who knows? We say in therapy, we call them an apparently normal person. Yeah. I think apparently is the key. Great, great, great. So we observe something. Someone hurts us, injures us, lets us down in a partnership and we challenge them elegantly, gently and say, look, that actually really hurt me when you did that. And they will say, I don't know what you're talking about.

31:05Davina McCall:I never did that. You're imagining that. Or it wasn't as bad as that. You're just, you know, you're being a bit over the top. I sometimes wonder if you're a little bit unhinged. I wonder if actually. Oh, God, you're even making me feel uncomfortable, like the way you're saying it. But that's what happens. Yes. So there's a truth that the narcissist cannot withstand because that would, again, knock on the mask for them. So they've got to very quickly deflect it to you. You've got to be the one that is in some way not getting it. You've misunderstood. You've got it wrong. That's gaslighting. An actual factual thing, feeling that's happening, happened, situation that's going on.

31:40And they will tell you that black is white and white is black. And you're sitting thinking. I'm sure it's not. I'm sure it's not.

31:47Davina McCall:Yeah. I'm really sure it's not. God. But I want this relationship to work. So maybe I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe I got it a bit wrong. Maybe I'm being a bit over the top. Maybe I'm a bit anxious about this. So we begin to negotiate with ourselves. So then we start to gaslight ourselves because... Is that a thing? Yeah. We begin to wonder. Oh, wow. Yes. So you start accepting untruths about yourself even when you know they're untruths. Yes. It's the chipping away. So if you're in a long relationship with someone, they start it and it goes a bit more and a bit more. Before you know it, you have dismantled your own sense of self with yourself in order to try and keep this relationship alive.

32:27Because they might say, if you really think that about me, then I should probably leave. So then the relationship's in jeopardy. It's not a kind of we've had a disagreement. Let's see how it is tomorrow. Can we find a way to make up or talk it through? they'll go straight to abandonment if they think that's the thing that's going to trigger you up so they'll threaten the entire relationship because you said actually it hurt me when you didn't turn up to my play or you um didn't support me with my parent at the weekend or you um ridiculed me in front of your friends at dinner last night they cannot take any level of criticism or feedback so they'll go straight for the jugular but it will start with the gas lighting we've got this lovely saying in therapy which is if it's hysterical it's historical if it really gets you that really wind you up about something the chances are it's touching on something from your historical past wait and we can all learn from that of course like if i get overreact we've all got a bit of a thing about something it's would i be right in saying it's a trigger is that a trigger trigger okay yeah do you like the word trigger i think it's overused i think it's everyone's triggered of everything that's why i asked yes it's like

33:36Davina McCall:People are over-triggered. Stop being triggered. It's not a trigger. That's why I asked if that was a trigger. Because I think you're right. I think what happens is we all get a word into our vocabulary. It was a bit like gaslighting. You know, when somebody goes, you gaslit me, and you think, I don't think I did. No, I just said what I felt. Yeah, that's what I mean. Gaslighting is, again, it's about intention. If their intention is to get away with the thing you're accusing them of, that's gaslighting. Sometimes we misunderstand. So it's about what's their intent? If their intent is, yeah, you've caught me on this and I don't want to admit to it, I'm going to gaslight you.

34:15It's about intent.

34:17Davina McCall:You know when you've got that little idea in the back of your mind, something that you think, you know what, I might do that one day. And then life gets kind of busy and it just sort of stays there. Well, I was thinking about how sometimes overwhelming it can feel when you actually try to start something. Design, writing, photography, payments, tech, all of it. It's a lot. Well, Shopify, whose sponsors begin again, sort of takes that chaos and it makes it feel achievable. Because it gives you a place to build your shop without needing to be an expert. It's got templates, it's got tools that help you write product descriptions and nudge you along a bit when you get stuck.

35:01Davina McCall:It means that you can just start. If you've been sitting on an idea, or you could just maybe have a look, try it out. Go to shopify.co.uk. If you want to, you can sign up for£1 per month trial and you could actually start selling right away. I think the other quite interesting thing around narcissistic relationships is that you were saying sometimes if you've had a narcissistic parent, not all the time, but sometimes if you've had a narcissistic parent, it can lead you to find a narcissist attractive. Why is that? So we say in our upbringing, even if it's been difficult and hairy, it's familiar.

35:46Yeah. And we mix familiarity with safety. So something feels familiar, we translate that in our brain as it being safe. It's not. It's probably very, very unsafe, but it's very, very familiar. And it's why sometimes people with domestic abuse find another partner. Sometimes if we've grown up with an alcoholic parent, we have a temptation to become because it's familiar. We know this pattern. We feel comfortable in it because it feels safe. It's the complete opposite of safe. when I work with people that have eating disorders and things like that again the eating disorder feels very safe to them safe eating restricted eating because it feels familiar so we have to start identifying for us is it really safe what's the interrogation of that thought or is it simply familiar so when we have a narcissistic parent who might be quite controlling of us in some form do we find ourselves attracted to slightly controlling people because it's completely unconscious but unconsciously oh i met them i met them and i had two dinners and you know what i felt like i've known them my whole life when someone says to him i met my whole life or i i've met them i have three dates you know i think i'm going to marry them i'm literally like stop let's just check here is there something in the past that wasn't good wait so let's yeah i want

37:01Davina McCall:to go over that so interesting so you meet somebody yes and you feel an instant connection Yes. But if it goes too fast, that is a red flag. Yeah. For me as a therapist, it's a red flag because I'm wondering what is it you're really connecting to? Because when we first meet someone, we completely we can't help ourselves. It's completely unconscious. We project onto each other. So you and I have never met before. So I would have had a load of projections about you before I turned up today. And you might have read a bit of my book or heard something from the producers and thought, I think this is what I'm going to think about Kathleen.

37:37It's only when we spend time together that we begin to both dismiss some of those projections and or find new truths about someone because it's a lived experience that we're having.

37:48Davina McCall:Yes. So in date one, date two, date three, we're pretty much dating our projections. Right. It's not until something goes a little bit awry or wrong. Like if I spilt my drink over me right now, you'd get to see a quick flustered part of me and you'd see a little bit of me. Do you know what I was just imagining then? What's that? I was like imagining what would happen because I see you as like someone who really knows their sort of psychology, psychiatrist stuff. Yeah. And it would be really funny if you spilt your drink and then went absolutely apeshit through a proper tantrum and stormed off.

38:22And I'd be like, who was that?

38:24Davina McCall:Yeah. What version of that? Yeah. It is. I always say to people, friends of mine or whatever, like, have you had a row yet? Exactly. Not a row, but what we were just saying. When I say I'm saying what I need and someone's been either brilliant back or gaslighting back, that's what you need to see. That's when you first start to see it. Yeah, okay. Yeah. So, of course, we notice all the usual stuff, you know, how are they with waitresses and waiters. We notice some behaviours. I think it's very telling. There's so many things, I think, on a first date. I'm just beginning to explore. Can you give me a few of them?

39:03Give me a few of them. So we'll notice, you know, do they book it? Do they book, who's the driving force? If you go to the bathroom, how do they wait for you or not wait for you? How are they with the people they're ordering food from? Do they observe what you're deciding to eat and then have a conversation about that in some form? Might they ask you, how long have you got? You know, how are you getting home? They might check and let me know when you've got home safely or not, as the case may be. And everybody will want different sorts of things depending on how we're built. But we'll notice some of these elements.

39:37But what we'll notice on dates six, seven and eight is are they keeping it up? Right. Where's the consistency?

39:43Davina McCall:Oh, OK. Sorry, this is so interesting because on a first date you would kind of go, oh, they're this person. Yeah. But actually... Best behaviour. Projection. Yes. Yes. OK, go on. It's all about consistency. So narcissists... Yeah, never consistent. Are on best behaviour though when you first meet them, right? Dates with narcissists. I know. I lived it and recovered it. Just delicious. Gorgeous, delicious. Everything you think you've ever wanted and looked at. They'll often ask you what you're looking for and you'll happily tell them and then they'll reflect it all back to you and you think, this is amazing.

40:18They're reading the books I'm reading. They love the same film directors. They like the same music. You're thinking, this is it. Like, this is it. I won the jackpot. But you wait till date, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. What's happening then? Dismissive, starting to devalue, this devalue and discard, you know, sort of putting down what you do for a living maybe and questioning, isn't therapy just a load of old hocus pocus? They might well believe that, some people do, but they'd be quite happy to start chipping away. Whereas in date one or two, oh my God, amazing that you're a psychotherapist.

40:52Seven and eight, hocus pocus.

40:53Davina McCall:But I think that's interesting with language because you could disagree with somebody about what they do in a way that is agreeable. Yes, of course. You know, like we were saying, like, what's your intention with what you're saying? If you're like, oh, well, it's interesting because I'd never really thought of it like that. I thought, you know, there's a way of saying it. If they're teasing you, again, we feel the intent behind it and we feel the energy that's behind it. What is it they're really trying to do when they're saying that? And sometimes I will say, what did you mean by that? And see where they go with it.

41:34So, again, if we ask the right questions, I think the better educated we are actually in dating, there's some brilliant critical questions that we can ask that I think unearth things quite quickly. Yeah, yeah, go, go. Yeah, so it's one of the famous questions, which is, what's too serious for me to joke about? Oh, I mean, okay, mega.

41:55Davina McCall:What would be your answer? Mine? Yeah. I would say race. Yes. I would say harm to children. Those would be my two big ones, I think. Yeah. And then you'd ask someone, tell me more about why. The tell me more question is always beautiful. Because if someone's being performative, if the narcissist is being performative, there'll be very little depth to the answer. God, can I just tell you, Kathleen, you are the gift that keeps on giving. I might be, but I'm single. But I'm telling you, after this podcast, trust me, I'm a presenter. I'm going to find you someone. Perfect. Can't wait. Right. So just don't you worry about that.

42:43Davina McCall:Excellent. But you, to me, are the gift that keeps on giving. Because you keep saying things, you keep kind of adding a bit where I go, oh, that has slightly blown my mind. Yeah. This consistency thing on general narcissism will really help navigate people, by the way. Wow, yeah. Because, you know, this is the hot, cold Jekyll and Hyde. it's the inconsisteneness of them and this sort of intermittent reinforcement intermittent absolutely lovely to you and you think this is it I finally got there we're home and dry and then suddenly not again it's the push pull you'll feel the push pull a lot with any flavour of narcissist no matter what relationship you are in with them you'll feel it they don't know they're doing it they absolutely know they're doing it okay and it worked they're doing it because it works it works they have to do it to protect and defend this fractured piece of them okay behind right so this this defense mask has got to be foolproof at all times if they think that you're onto them and certainly my lived experience was once they think you're onto them you you've got to be annihilated because you are at danger of pulling that mask right off How long were you in?

44:00Davina McCall:Six years. Wow. Engaged. Wait, can I, do you mind me asking? You can ask me anything. Okay. So how old, I mean, are we talking the last six years? No. Like how long ago was it? It was, it ended three years ago. So it was six years. But you were an adult? I was an adult woman. You were a therapist? I was a therapist by then, which made it worse, which made it worse. Why? Well, I mean, what I want to ask you is like how, how, yes. All of it. Yeah. So I think being a therapist and being in a narcissist relationship was almost a double bind that nearly took my life in a way because I was an adult.

44:38I was a mother and I was a woman of the world. I was a chief executive of a business. I got myself sorted. I was sorted. And I thought I'd found the perfect person. Amazing. Early signs were there. And I'm a therapist. therapist so I think there's something going on with this person I can feel it I can pick it quite quickly it was you know within the first three to six months some odd behaviors and things and I thought I'm a therapist I'm older an older woman so there's not loads of them out there I need to make it work that was my wound I think I could help make it work that's my rescuer maybe a bit of ego and I'm a therapist so I'm used to working with personality disorders so if I really really work hard at this if I study him and I I really try and understand what's going on for him and maybe about his childhood and maybe he's had a difficult life and maybe maybe maybe maybe I can make it work and so I stayed way too long at the fair because I was a therapist this this sense of hope yeah and I learned my lesson the hard way I'd never do it again and there was another final part to that Davina which is the shame the shame of being a grown-up woman who runs a business who's brought her children up that you know they're fantastic and gorgeous and and I'm a therapist and I'm in an abusive relationship and I can't tell anyone because I'm so ashamed because I should know better complete trap and in a way a win for them oh perfect for them I couldn't have been more attentive to what they wanted and what they needed and tried to correct all the gas lighting and tried to get them to read books and watch films and come to therapy and all sorts of things and they were safe in the knowledge that you couldn't tell anyone couldn't tell anyone and you know their mask wasn't going to come off that was super glued on and I did everything I could to dissolve that and say I know who you are behind it and it's okay I'll love you anyway actually I should have packed my little bags and run for the hills but I didn't.

46:48Davina McCall:So you were saying that actually when you do find out who they are it is all out war. It's all out war once they know that you're on to it yeah. What was that like? I mean complete annihilation of me so anything I would do say want to be at whatever so things like, you know, I had an operation I needed to have, four hour general anaesthetic on the morning said, sorry, I can't be there. I'm busy at work. My dad died during COVID. The next day he said, let's end the relationship. I, you know, I don't want to be around your sadness. Went to the funeral on my own during COVID. Things like that, things that if you explain them, and this is, I think, important to get onto, you explain it to an apparently normal person and you can see them thinking what are you doing what are you doing of course but surely it can't have been exactly like that particularly if they know the person they seem so lovely and gentle and charming mine was a covert they seem so giving and lovely etc can't believe something else must have gone on in that story yes omitted must be something else that really really wasn't so you're trapped in a sense of I've also got sunk cost fallacy.

48:03You know, I've stayed so long and I've bet so many chips at the poker table. I've got to make it work.

48:09Davina McCall:Yes. I can't have lost all the money and walked away. Do you remember that film Indecent Proposal? Yes. Robert Redford or whatever. Yes. They've bet all their money so they cannot then walk. They've got to hope that if I just bet a few more chips, it might come good. It's got to come good. Yeah. Yeah. So that was their story. But my story in it was I went into it thinking I'm older, I might not find anyone. My distorted belief was that this could be my last chance. I really thought it was my last chance to get married, settle down in a happy ever after. And so that was the work I then had to go back and do with my amazing therapist to say, what was that that we need to heal so that if you ever come into this situation again, you would never stay.

48:56Davina McCall:Yeah. And also I think you being good at your job was almost a problem because you're like, I can fix you. I've done it to so many people and for so many people that I've got these baseline feelings. So let's kind of heal you so you can become perfect. What was interesting when I was training, you do a term or two, it's five and a half years of training. You do a couple of terms on personality disorders. back when I trained I think we must have done five minutes on narcissism there was nothing so I didn't understand it at all at that point it was only when I was trying to understand what the hell was going on and then went and studied under sort of specific professors that have really researched narcissism that suddenly the whole world of it opened up to me and at that point I was like oh my god like I really am with one I really am you asked a question though a second Because you feel like they must see a pattern of behaviour and that it's cruel.

50:02Yes. And they do deep down. Yes. Because the reason we know that is the minute the lights, camera, action are on in whatever part of their life, they don't do it.

50:11Davina McCall:Oh, I see. Yes. So when they're out in public. Yes. Not just alone with you. They would never do it. Right. They would never, ever do it. And towards the end, when things were particularly hairy, every now and again, something would be happening. And I'd think, you know what, I'm going to try and film it or record it because it's the only way that I can. And the minute they realised, stopped. And that's the cruel reality when you realise, oh, my God, you can control the way that you're behaving. Yes. And it's really, it's very disturbing. Yes. To see that in someone. It's really not just in someone, someone that you love.

50:50Yeah. Someone that you are well intended towards. But once you finally truly accept it, you know you have to leave. And then it's about how do I do it?

51:03Davina McCall:And is it about how do I do it because they make it very difficult for you to leave? Not necessarily. Some of them do. They'll be very manipulative with you to, you know, we call it hoovering. They'll write you letters and send you mixtapes and tell you, actually, I used to have one. My one said to me, look, here's a house that I think we should buy. I've put in for us to go and see it next Tuesday. And was that the dream that you've always had? That was the dream that we've had together. So all the things that we call it breadcrumbing or future faking. So they know the story that you want to be true.

51:38So suddenly they'll come right back in with, it's fine. We'll buy the house. We'll do the thing. will, all the things that we were meant to have. And so you think, oh, maybe because you wanted to be true. So maybe this is going to be what happens. So you go back in and within a matter of weeks, you're straight back in. It is like domestic abuse. And I do think we need to accept that psychological abuse is as abusive.

52:01Davina McCall:We just don't have any bruises. We don't want anyone to have any bruises, but we don't have any bruises. And that's what makes it difficult. If you turned up to work or at their parents or you know your best friends with socking great big black eyes people would act people would have an opinion people would come into the rescue all they've got are your stories that don't quite add up and and it's a bit like you said that people go it can't be we know them we see them when we're out they're lovely it can't be that bad it's quite an interesting protection mechanism it's very very clever it's very clever it makes again it makes you look a bit mad it's like perfect gaslighting a bit in just deranged yeah yeah we call it reactive abuse you know you take so much of it that eventually you know you'll have a bit of a meltdown and people think or you'll go to a dinner party where in the car on the way there they've been absolutely hell on wheels so you turn up and you put your smile on but it's pretty clear that your central nervous system is all over the show but they're fine and but they're fine so their friends are probably thinking yes she was a bit strange at that dinner but they have no idea what had been going on in the car on the way there yes but it's it's frightening actually do you know one of the other things and we've we've touched on it a bit but i definitely want to deep dive into this because there will be lots of people watching who are parents yes and i've got two girls and a boy and i know that you know all relationships when you're a kid and you're growing up and you're um you're going through puberty and everything's changing um and school is like sometimes a battlefield isn't it for for some it is but um this this kind of group mentality a sort of pack bullying was it what did you call it um when there's a narcissism with like a person one person who's the head of everything um the pta for adults but is it communal is it possible to have that in kids yes like school absolutely in friendships of course in school so all of these are what we know what we call sort of systemic they're systems in some form social systems and in every social system there is normally a scapegoat there's a common enemy horribly yes okay in a group yeah you've also got the leader of the pack that everyone looks up to for various reasons they'll be the frightened of the scapegoat that's generally the kid that's bullied the kid that's bullied is the scapegoat, the one that's ridiculed, bullied, blamed.

54:31All of those things. Horrible. And if you are that in a group at school, it's very, very difficult to undo it. It normally means you need to change schools, year group, you know, or go to the other. If there's six classes, you go to the other one over here. Wait, I want to say that again for parents because I know a lot of parents

54:53Davina McCall:who will have had the scapegoat and will be thinking, I'm going to keep them here, it'll get better next year. I think that is a brilliant piece of advice because I think sometimes you think, oh, let's not move them because it's such a hassle. And we think we want to teach them to work it through because we do. We want to teach our children, of course, stand up to them or whatever forms we have. I think it's okay to teach them those things to start with and see if it has any manoeuvrability. But if a kid's been cancelled in a group, if you like horrible language, but it's now happening, or they're constantly, it's weeks and it's months of this, genuinely as a therapist, I would say I've seen too many people struggle for too long.

55:37Take them out, help them to settle somewhere better.

55:41Davina McCall:And also you want them to go and settle somewhere better before they're broken. That's the thing. because these belief sets that we get in long before we leave home, they're with us forever unless we work them out, probably later in life in therapy. People that are in their 40s, 50s, 60s will come to me now and talk about bullying even now and the impact it had on them. I do a lot of work with the stacking dolls. I'm sort of known for it and I will talk about what ages were you when certain things really hurt. Right. And often it will be an early teenage incident where they'll say this happened at school and that will be impacting them in their 50s and 60s even now.

56:18Davina McCall:I mean, that is fascinating, isn't it? Yeah. That you can still be carrying that around. Of course. And I wonder how these groups, you know, so the person, sometimes the leader of the pack might have some narcissistic traits and how they would feel if they saw that person later on in life, you know, whether it would just all happen all over again? Often not because often something's happened for them to even become that person in the group so often there's a story going on for all the members and we can have some empathy for all the members why has that kid felt the need to take that role in some form right so there's something going on for them I'm a huge advocate of going back and finding some of the people that have hurt you and seeing whether or not it would be safe and appropriate to have a conversation.

57:12Oh, are you? I do it now with people and their parents. So I will teach them using empty chair technique, gestalt technique, and then in real life rehearsing, going and finding the parent. Wait, when you say gestalt technique, is that the name of the technique? That's the name. So gestalt therapy, which is a particular form of therapy. Empty chair work is a very well-known technique where we would put a chair and we would imagine your mum in the chair now. Oh, OK. And what might you want to say to her?

57:39Davina McCall:So we'd rehearse that and work on that. Often if they've passed, that's the only way we can do it. But if they are still here, we might be very, very terrified of them, but we might decide slowly to find a way to go and spend an afternoon and say, listen, there's a conversation I need to have with you. Having the conversation as an adult on behalf of the little child, I imagine you've put the child on your knee and you're saying, I'm going to speak for my little Kathleen. And she will say to the mother, the father, the partner, the bully at school, this is what it was like for me when you did that.

58:11I just need you to know that. And it's the only time in therapy we're not interested in a two-way conversation. In that work, we're letting the little girl say, this is what happened when you did that to me. That's it. Has it ever happened to you that that went badly wrong? If people aren't prepared, if they go in too quick, too soon. Right. So as a therapist, I work and work and work on the person. And I always can tell because I can tell what's going on for them. somatically what's going in the body what does that mean so some somatically is what's going can you feel it see people say oh my god even the thought that my mum's in that chair you know i've got an erased heartbeat got sweaty palms you know something's kicking off in my body so it's a physical reaction physical reaction to even the imagination of them to an imaginary thing yeah right the school bully may be in that instance if we've worked long and hard enough and they actually want to do it it's up to them and ready when we do the final rehearsal they'll say i feel my central nervous system is perfectly online wow absolutely fine i'm ready so they've done it that many times that the system has said safe i'm safe wow yeah now once we've done that whether they actually have the conversation or is slightly immaterial but many people that do do it say it It freed me from all those years and all those feelings that I had.

59:33I finally said what I needed to say. Lots of people say I'm worried about what my parent would say back to me, what my ex-partner would say back to me, what my school bully would say. We're not interested. It's the only time in therapy. We're not interested in what they would say.

59:46Davina McCall:And also, I guess, like, if they're really worried about what they might say, then they're not ready to go. OK, not ready. OK, it's about us being able to speak up for the part that never, ever found the courage ability space to do so that's why it's so beautiful because they finally get the chance to be seen and their reaction is immaterial particularly if they're a narcissist they're not going to really care less anyway yeah other than we may be angry but we don't care be angry uh it's about saying i've said what i needed to say and i can leave that there and i never have to carry it ever again it's yours now that's brilliant yeah to hear as well i think if you've been a victim yes of a narcissistic anybody yeah and it's really affected you that visual that you've just done there yeah is very powerful yeah we literally take all those feelings we make sure we've seen them accepted them had some sense of compassion for them and then we're like okay i'm ready it's time here it is Thank you very much.

1:00:48Davina McCall:Do you know, I think another really powerful tool is when you realise that you can advocate for yourself. And that feels like that. Yeah. That you don't need somebody to apologise. You need to go and advocate for yourself. Yeah. But you need to be in a place where you are doing it, not expecting or needing anything in return. You're done. But validation is very interesting with narcissistic abuse because the risk, of course, is if we if, as you've just said, we're seeking their validation. I mean, good luck. You know, they're not going to say you're absolutely right. I'm a dreadful person. I've got this terrible personality disorder.

1:01:31So if we're waiting for them to say, you know what, I was awful. We're going to be waiting. Yeah, you're going to be disappointed. Where we can get validation is from people that understand narcissistic abuse. And that's why, you know, any group, whether it's AA, you know, whether it's Al-Anon, there isn't in the UK. And if I could get funding to set it up, I'll set it up tomorrow. Because I found when I was in my recovery, when I found other people that had really experienced it, it's like a shorthand where they're like, first of all, I completely and utterly believe you. secondly did they do a bit of stuff like that and you're like oh my god totally and then you can actually feel they get it i'm safe to tell them the stories yes because often these stories are quite convoluted yes because it's quite insidious so confused of course so i think we definitely need this because it's so insidious it's a great idea it's definitely needed and i find that the validation in that sense is incredibly helpful i actually found the ex two partners of my narcissist and I sat with them both across it was a three decade gap and the abuse was identical and it was shocking but it was the most healing it released me from everything it was amazing and

1:02:51Davina McCall:I'm still very grateful to them both and did they they knew he was going out with you yeah and were they thinking oh maybe he's changed maybe she's changed him the ex-wife when I contacted her said, I wondered how long. I wondered how long it would be before you contacted me. Wow. Yeah. In NA, they used to say the value of one addict helping another is without parallel and the value of one victim of narcissism helping another victim of narcissism is without parallel. It's that deep rooted empathy that nothing can beat. Nothing can beat. Yeah. And it's got similar dynamics. You know, people fall off the wagon in the sense that they go back to their nails.

1:03:33Yes. How common is that? Oh, we say it's very similar to addiction. Seven or eight times would be the average time you'll go back. Trauma bonding. Trauma bonding we haven't talked about. Trauma bonding is the very centre of the pain. What is that? Trauma bonding is that you feel that you cannot live without them. They're my one and only. They're my last chance. Right. So we get bonded in that. And what happens is when they discard you, you go through the devastation of being left or discarded and then they say a month later here's the house here's the promise here's the and your whole body is flooded with dopamine and you're like relief we're back together again it's a brain chemical it's just as strong they say in some quarters and i hope this won't offend anybody that's had any heroin issues but it's as strong as heroin addiction trauma bonding because the anticipation and then the relief is a very similar chemical cycle that you go through and we call it trauma bonding in narcissistic relationships.

1:04:34Davina McCall:Wow. I cannot be without them. I have to be with them. I've got to make it work. When it breaks and we go through cold turkey, it's so hideous. They come back and say, do you want another hit? And you're like, yes, please. I've changed. Yeah. It's going to be different. Yeah. I've learnt my lesson. I nearly lost you. Wow. But six or seven times. Six or seven times. So the family and friends and colleagues get sick and tired. Oh, God. Because the first few times they're like, thank God you're leaving them. And after a while they're like, listen, she's back with him again. Can't be bothered to, or him or her, can't be bothered to, you know, she's bound to go back to him.

1:05:13So then you're even more isolated because no one's supporting you anymore. They're sort of sick and tired of it all. Well, that is like an abusive relationship because then that isolates you even more from the people that care about you.

1:05:24Davina McCall:And it's great for the abuser. Yeah. So isolation is there twice. A, you can't say what they're really doing to you because you think, well, I should leave them then because they are doing that to me. And you'll never believe me because they appear so gorgeous in reality. And when they finally believe you and you leave them, if you go back, then you've lost their support. So the isolation is very central to narcissistic relationships. In families, you might be the one sibling that speaks up and says, this is what's going on. The whole family will close in and get rid of you. They put it under the carpet.

1:05:58You are then ostracized from the family for daring to speak up. Happens in boardrooms. I see it all the time. Happens in friendship groups.

1:06:06Davina McCall:I want to talk about boardrooms because that's the area we haven't really kind of touched on yet. And work, you mentioned earlier, and I thought this was such a really potent, obviously, because I'm self-employed. I work in TV, podcasts, literally I've never met someone mean. Like I just, everybody that I seem to work with is just joyful. But in a cutthroat business situation, in a company, you know, your income depends on it. Your whole livelihood is dependent on you staying in this business. And things are tough at the moment. the potential for a narcissist to really take advantage of staff.

1:06:54Davina McCall:How does that present itself? So start at the beginning, which is Harvard studies have showed us this. Narcissists are brilliant at interviews. First date, same thing. Oh, my God, of course. Secondly, if you read a standard job description for a chief executive or achieve anything, confidence, deliberateness, you know, can speak really well in public, can instruct people well. Narcissist. Charismatic. We are advertising for these people. That's the irony of it. We're calling for them. And then 18 months later, when it's all, excuse my French, gone to shit, we're then like, oh God, have you seen what they're like?

1:07:38But if they're in a leadership role, They can be very persuasive. You know, money makes the world go round. They might be making a lot of money for a business, but the collateral damage of the people that are working for them is unbelievable. And the way I talk about it is, you know, on corporate boards, we have governance, you know, for risk, for policy, for all sorts of stuff.

1:07:59Davina McCall:What does governance? Governance, if you're a trustee or you're a board member of a board, I'm a trustee for the NSPCC, for example. governance is about making sure the business is being run well and safely and within the rules of operation so you have a duty of care so we have governance for for policy for risk for lots of for finance you'll have people that are singularly governing those things we have nobody governing behaviour. Nobody. The only people we might think about is HR. I call them human remains because actually what they're doing is they're at the directive of the CEO. So they don't even have, even if they wanted to, they don't have the power to question what the CEO is doing.

1:08:47So there is no power check for these people. They are free to do as they wish. And if they're bringing the money into the business the behavior is swept under the carpet but this is really

1:08:58Davina McCall:interesting because not only have you now got to start na yeah um narcissists anonymous but you've also now got to change that in the boardroom that is not right it's not right someone someone has to hold the ceo accountable completely wow really going to campaign strongly for this yes i've just to finish my next book, Sly and Mighty, and it's all about that. What are we going to do about it? Because everyone says, well, the CEO doesn't have a boss. They've probably got shareholders. They've got investors from the city. There will be other people that fundamentally can. And so I've come up with this sort of, it's a bit cheeky, but the strategy is, do you stay at this business?

1:09:40Do you play? As in, do you utilise it to your use for a period of time? Or do you slay? I'm not condoning anyone kills anybody but slay means how do we get rid of a narcissistic boss yes and the only way you can do it is not as an individual you've got to do it as a collective so you have to form a coup if a lot of you on the board of the business say we cannot work with him or her any longer to the shareholders the investors or whatever funnily enough you'll probably find they'll get rid of them so there's a whole world now we've got to look at about how do we manage our way through these people because they are rife.

1:10:17I talk about the dark triad. Narcissism, Machiavellianism and psychopathy. That's the dark triad. What's psychopathy?

1:10:24Davina McCall:Psychopath tendencies. Oh, I see. People that would do stuff and literally doesn't care. They don't care. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. When they did the research in the general population, Davina, 1 % has got psychopathy. That feels like quite a lot. It's a lot. In business, guess what? No, how many? 4%. Oh, my Are you serious? 400 % more psychopaths in the workplace because leadership, you've got leadership ability. Unfortunately, you may well have some of the dark triad traits. Because they want that. If you're going to have to sack a load of people, they don't want anybody with any feelings. You've just got to do it.

1:11:01Davina McCall:Absolutely. And they see that as a bonus. Oh, God, it's awful. Research, 20 % have high narcissistic traits. 20%. It's a lot of people. Wow. So statistically in business, we are more likely to find these personality disorders than in the commonal dating everyday life. And that's why we've got to bring it to everybody's attention in a way that we can think about. Are you that boss? And if you are, you know, you're leaving a legacy of harm. Do you want to go to therapy and do something about it? If it's traits and personality, not the disorder. If you're one of the people suffering, what can we do to help you?

1:11:37if you're an investor if you're a bystander if you're in the team and you're seeing it happen and you don't know what to do to help the person it could be in a group at school what are you going to do about it so I'm on a mission to start looking at what we do in workplaces it would work the same in schools work the same in friendship groups anything there's a group of people what can we do to start getting this right I think that's um in a school group you know there are

1:12:05Davina McCall:sometimes um like there's sometimes one person who kind of secretly will go off and be nice to the person that's being bullied and goes you know sorry like this is happening to you but then they're too frightened to do that when the gang is together totally the same in business it will be i can see you're being bullied in the board meetings or the sales meetings or whatever meetings but they can't they feel they can't speak up because it could be their job on the line and it's their mortgage on the line so it's really high stakes it's huge stakes isn't it and at school it's like life and death of course you know out of that gang then i'm done yeah um pta meeting you know if you still but your kids are at that school for the next few years that one person could make your life a nightmare it is it's really hard all about power so will you just remind me us the name of the book it's called sly and mighty that's such good because they're mighty that's very good they're mighty but they're really sodding sly yeah and so how can we really expose the slyness of their behavior which will help us decide can we get mighty with the sly and and tools you're giving everybody loads of tools great so in both my book starts off with what the hell is it whatever it is this is amazing for tools it really really is what is it is the first third how does it look in real life is the middle third in both books.

1:13:31The final third is, okay, what are we going to do about it? And there's so much we can do about it. And that's where the hope can come back in.

1:13:39Davina McCall:And I'd just like to also say to any CEOs watching, don't forget there are 80 % that are good. Yes. You're not all bad. Just wanted to say that. You know, we've got to big up the good guys and girls. And when they're good, it's so extremely wonderful. I've had so many bosses in my lifetime. I mean, in the main, they've been absolutely amazing. And I credit so much of what I've been able to become because of them. And this is the thing. But like great teachers, like great partners, you've just said with Michael. When we get it right, it changes our life for the better. Oh, my God. Like, literally, I'm just going to hold this up again.

1:14:17Kathleen, thank you.

1:14:19Davina McCall:Kathleen Saxton, she's written this amazing book, My Parent, the Peacock. I've got to say, I think my kids might say that about me. I do strut about in like ridiculous outfits and everything. But I like to feel like I make up for it in other ways. But my parent, the peacock and Sly and Mighty, Sly and Mighty coming out in September. So, yeah, we've got you covered. Kathleen's got you covered. And thanks so much. That was absolutely brilliant. Round of applause for Kathleen, please. Thank you. So just in case you missed this episode here, if you love this episode, I know you're going to love that.