Natalie Imbruglia: I Got the Life I Dreamed Of... Then I Had to Start Over!

23:22Davina McCall:I guess because it was daily and you were in our lives every day. It just... Had a lot of partners too, so I think. that felt like the relationships went on for a year. By the end, they had me busy. Beth had done everyone. Beth does Ramsey Street. Well, I mean, it was getting to the point. I was like, really? This is a get, this is not my character. Yes, right. And they would just laugh at me. I'd be like, this is a get, this is off script. This is not, well, she would not do this. How frustrating is that when somebody makes your character do something that you think this isn't what? Well, they were just laughing at me.

24:05I was trying to take it very seriously. I mean, I thought I was a thespian doing this, you know. But it is serious. She's got a phobia of blue and you've got her in a blue dress. This is me to the script writers. You're sweet. And they go, okay, thanks for sharing. I need to talk to the script writer.

24:22Davina McCall:And then 18, you did basically the unthinkable. You leave this huge success and then you just up and move country. Yeah. You talked me through that. Well, I mean. Because I'm in 18, still so young. Yeah. I actually think I was 17 and a half when I was. Wow. And I, so what we would do, you leave neighbors, you go do Panto to cash in and be an out of work actor. Right. So that would get you through. So that was the plan. And what happens is us Aussies come over here and go, oh, my God, there's a whole world out there. I'm coming back. and then we never leave. So that's what happened. Via a trip through America, I ended up on a tour bus with In Excess.

25:04That's an aside.

25:05Davina McCall:Wait. No, wait. You can't just say that and then say that's an aside. So this is Meg, right? Because In Excess at that time were just the biggest band in the universe. Yeah. And we've obviously all just seen that amazing documentary with Kylie and been re-blown away by Michael and his beauty. I mean, I don't mean a beauty to look at, but in his heart, he was a beautiful person. Talk me through what that was like. Sexy rock god. I had become friends with a singer called Denny Hines. Her mother, Marsha Hines, is a very famous singer. and she was engaged to the saxophone player in In Excess and she'd invited me to come stay to her hotel.

25:56So it's my first trip to the UK and I thought, well, I'll stop in the States and have a couple of nights with Denny and then go on to Canterbury. Imagine the first time you've gone overseas. And she got bored and was like, I'm going to go on the tour, but I was like, you can't leave me. I've never left home. And she said, well, I'll ask the boys if you can come on tour. And I actually thought I was quite cool, So that was just really not cool and embarrassing and like don't ask them. Anyway, she said, oh, the boy said it's fine. And so next thing you know, I'm flying to Chicago. And I'm on a tour bus with an accent.

26:29Yeah. Yeah. And Helena Christensen walked in. I was like, I mean, yeah, wild. So how long did you do that for? I don't remember. It would have only been a couple of nights and then I would have had to go on back to New York and then on to. Yeah. And I remember there was like bullet holes in the wall and someone was telling me about Al Capone. So there's, you know, these things. And I remember one of the band members played me Joni Mitchell, Girl at Her Volcano, sat me at a window with the snow falling. So those visible memories of the first time you hear an artist like Rikki Lee Jones. And it's just imprinted in my, you just can't redo those experiences.

27:12So that was, yeah, that was incredible.

27:17Davina McCall:Earlier on, you mentioned neurodivergence. And I just want to talk to you a little bit about that, because now as an adult, I think lots of people, rather than labeling themselves, are just acknowledging that they probably have a bit of this and a bit of that. And that's why I've always been this way. Because I don't think you've been officially diagnosed, have you? With ADHD. With ADHD, you have. But you think you probably are dyslexic. Yes. Mildly, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, it is interesting. The words used to move around on the page. Yes. And I could never, I'd read three pages and go back again.

27:56And I was like, how can I not remember what I'm reading? And thought I was stupid. Yeah.

28:02Davina McCall:I mean, these are terrible, these things that we go through when we're younger and everybody does just say, oh, well, you know, you're struggling a bit. But then actually when you do understand that there is probably a reason for that and it's fine. And it actually also, I mean, dyslexia now is seen as it should always have been seen as a gift of lateral thinking. Yeah. And a different way of viewing the world and how valuable that is. But, you know, it's sad because when you're younger, it's a burden. But you've been diagnosed with ADHD. Yep. but I'm still thinking about this girl in all of these crazy situations on your own.

28:45Davina McCall:It's mad. It is mad when you think about it. But I knew I had OCD. How did that manifest itself? Well, my sister was really messy and we shared a room and I had to put a piece of string down the middle and I was just very tidy. I was very organised and tidy and I was like, I'm so glad I've got OCD for my mum. So that was something my mother had lists. you know she had us all kind of with our chores and everything was orderly and but I was like this is the best thing ever because I never had it out of control I never had compulsive hand washing it never it was like just the right amount so I used to love that I had OCD and I'd tell everyone other members of my family later in life had to get treatment for it I remember my sister had to touch the stove to make sure it was off and she'd come back to watch tv and she'd have to go back or she'd drive to work and think I've left the iron plugged in because mum was like don't leave the iron plugged in we don't have house insurance so that that didn't help but hers was getting out of control so my niece and my sister had both had treatment for it so then I became aware that it can tip there's a tipping point I had no idea that they're all linked that you know it doesn't really matter which one like by the end of it so by the time I'd been diagnosed and I realized that there's little bits of all of them and that's an ADHD trait not just an OC I was like oh it doesn't matter then like you can you can get hung up on the labels or you can just say you know the sprinkling of all of them it doesn't really what what matters is um the tools you have to cope with whatever they are like does it really matter do do you really need to know specifically, it doesn't actually change anything.

30:29Davina McCall:So you came over to the UK, you did panto, but then you were like, I love the UK. I'm coming back. I have to come back. And then it was a case of, I actually was trying to be an actress. So I had made some demos straight after Neighbours, but the people that in Australia were trying to put me in, like, a girl group, and I was doing demos of Sean Colvin. Right, okay. Not girl group. I was too young for the kind of music I want to sing. I mean, it's just ridiculous thinking about it. I was like, they just don't take me seriously. It's this child trying to sing a serious country artist. I don't know if anyone knows who Sean Park is.

31:08I do. I love Sean Park. Diamond in the Rough. That was my... Wow, brilliant. It just didn't fit. And so I just... Well, it did for you. For me, it did.

31:18Davina McCall:But just not their impression of what you should be doing, but you knew what you wanted to do. Well, I actually was like, I'm just going to have to wait till I'm a bit older. I'll put it on the back burner and I'll just stop being an actress. Isn't that funny? It's amazing. So I then went to England and that's when I couldn't get a visa to work as an actress. And they were really cracking down on the Neighbours stars, taking English actors roles. And that was a hard time because I ran out of money. So I was for a few years very famous from Neighbours and was doing appearances and going, appearing in clubs and signing autographs and just getting wads of cash in envelopes and living like that.

32:00And that was the first time in my life where everything didn't fall in my lap. And so I just partied because I didn't know what to do. It's like, and then, but then the money ran out and it was my dad once rang and said, can I just ask, when are you going to get a job? And I was so proud and I screamed at him and kicked off, but I was so embarrassed that he said that to me that I changed things then. So you'd had a kind of a pretty luxurious life for a young girl since you'd been in Neighbours.

32:35Davina McCall:You'd had a steady cash flow. You'd been an extra before that. You'd had an income coming in. Yeah. So was it quite a good slap in the face sort of suddenly not having money and it was like, oh, okay. Having to get the bus. Yeah. Yeah, it was good. It's interesting, isn't it? Because if you're a famous person, then everyone might recognize you and they'd be like, are you Rebecca Onaloglu from that? And I'm like, no, no, no, no. Or they'd be like, I know you, but they didn't quite know where from. So the fame dwindles and the kind of recognition dwindles and the friends that were there fall away.

33:11And there you have the subject matter for the first album. And when did you start writing that? I was, I'd run out of money and I was living in a basement of someone's house in Chelsea, which was weird because I had no money. I'm in Chelsea in this big mansion, but I'm just in the basement. and a lot of conversations with God about if I ever get lucky again, if I ever. Was it like a higher power or were you religious? I was brought up religious and I was still on the journey of what God was for me. I ended up getting very heavily into Eastern philosophy and meditation and that helped me kind of understand my Catholic upbringing, strangely.

33:53I had met this meditation master. How lovely. Yeah. How old were you then? That grounded me. That was, I guess I was around 21, 22 when Torn came out. So it was before that, just before that. So you got into meditation at 20. Oh, I'd already had my party years and then, yeah, dove into meditation. Because I was like, I need, this is going to ground me and if ever I have that success again, like I just want to, don't let the wrong people in. Because I'd been through so much. This is incredible. It's a lot of lives. for a little person.

34:28Davina McCall:I mean, I think this is why I was so looking forward to talking to you on this podcast in particular, because often people spend decades in one thing and then change. But you're, we've got to 20 and you've lived three lives already. It's incredible. No, but it's... I've got a spiritual name tattooed on my neck and I was like doing an hour and a half. Tell me, tell me what's your spiritual name. is that your spiritual name yes oh i love that i don't go by it but at the time i wanted it as a practice to yeah qualities i could grow into oh my god this is so funny i'm being so open bring it out and what am i doing and i keep forgetting i'm can i say something though i'm in awe of you like you're being open but it's well i'm so in i'm so impressed by you and talking to a higher power.

35:26Davina McCall:Wow, isn't it? Yeah, and having conversations. I don't know if I was having a mental breakdown. It could have been all the partying and then just kind of all the friends disappearing and, I don't know, I made deals with God. I was like, if you, if this happens, I promise. I think I wrote letters to my cousins and all kinds of stuff. But it's cathartic. It's cathartic. I've got a roof over my head. I remember thinking, some people don't. You know, when it's just reassessing and when you've been spoiled and you've had things very easy and then it's all taken away, things get stripped back and it's such a blessing.

36:06That was the birth of the album that changed my life. So, you know, the visceral memories, if you think about what's happened to you in your life, not thinking about the awards and all of that I'm thinking about that when it was like this is life or death or like I've got to get this together that's where the nuggets of wisdom come and you make choices and pacts with yourself or with your higher power whatever you want to call it of you know what you're going to do now what you need to do and so that's that's inspiring to me that's what I want to write about. That's what I think about and remember more than accolades.

36:48Davina McCall:So you've written some lyrics, you are struggling, everything is difficult, you're in a basement, you are writing lyrics to songs, but you wanted to act. But how did you get to meet somebody in the music industry who were like, okay, let's, did you make a demo? Oh, I know what happened. So I remember I couldn't get a visa to be an actress. And I was like, oh, I'm going to have to do that other thing that I do. So I had this idea that because I was on Neighbours and so many people had had a music career or tried. I mean, there was quite a few. Had Kylie happened? Kylie was hugely successful. Kylie, Jason.

37:29But some people not so successful. And I just thought if it doesn't work, I'm like the 11th person who's tried and failed and that's it. The stakes felt that high.

37:41Davina McCall:Yeah. I knew I could sing. I was a stage school kid, but there's no guarantees. So it felt very risky, but I ran out of money and my dad made that comment. And I was like, I'm just going to have to be the stage school kid again. Because it just wasn't cool. Like I got to teenage years, it was about boys, and you're not a triple threat. So that wasn't cool in my head. It is actually really cool. So I went back to it kind of because I ran out of money. And did people try and pigeonhole you into the pop star? Well, no, I met this lovely woman called Anne Barrett, who was my first manager. and she really nurtured me and introduced me to Phil Fornally, who produced my first album, and all the songwriters of the demos at that time.

38:26So I've got a lot to thank her for. I felt safe with her and so that's when I started songwriting. And it was that, the demos that I worked on with her that she took in to RCA Records, to Jeremy Marsh, who then signed me. And one of the demos was Torn. Wow. So that's how it happened.

38:43Davina McCall:Let's talk about Torn because it was a blessing and a problem, like in a way, because it's huge success. Literally, it must have taken everyone by surprise. It just, I mean, it was a worldwide spectacular hit. The album, full stop. Yeah, I think it leaked onto K-Rock in America, which was not even a station that played pop music. I don't know how, but it got played and then so it kind of broke itself in America. And then we were chasing it around the States. I mean, Grammys? I got nominated. Yeah. I mean. It's wild. Like madness. Mm-hmm. And what, you're how old at this point, 22? Two? I think so.

39:38Davina McCall:Something around that. Yeah, around that. Like still ridiculously young. Yeah. Brits. Yeah, two Brits. You won. Didn't you win two Brits? Yeah. Yeah. So like it's awards, Sarah, and it's bigger than you've ever experienced before, and it's something completely new again. Is it like reinventing yourself, you know, actor? Oh, musician, different hat. Or were you just being... That was just me. I was just me. They were all things I did from singing into a hairbrush. Not much had changed and I was very rehearsed so I was like a stage school kid. And so would you call yourself very professional? Like you weren't just mucking about?

40:23Davina McCall:I still am a bit rehearsed. so Torn was not just an epic in terms of awards but even just the amount of streams, the amount of albums sold, obscene it was something like how many times a day in Australia was it being played something like 75 times a day I think I have no idea seriously it was the most strange track in the 21st century or something from the 70s, 80s, 90s. I mean, it was... But the pressure. So then you're like, oh, this is brilliant. How long could you enjoy it for before you're thinking second album? Oh, gosh, I was thinking second album the moment it happened. I was like, oh, no.

41:16Calm down, everyone. Please stop looking. I'm supposed to be quietly learning a craft here. So it was this real juxtaposition of I'm so grateful. I'm going to be singing this song forever. Make friends with it. Oh, you'll hate it. Yeah, of course. I remember thinking you're going to win every award this year and then nothing forever. Pretty close to what's happening. I haven't won many awards since that year. But can I just say something?

41:43Davina McCall:But like that is so rare really for people to go on and do it year after year after year. It doesn't happen like that. But you are an accomplished musician who has released a lot of amazing music. So I'm just going to sow that seed and plant that there. You are amazing. I've gotten better. But that was just too big a first album, really. The pressure for you after that must have been immense. It was. um I think for me the fact that I was even having the thinking what am I going to do with this like what's like knowing that I had a choice to enjoy it like that's the gift that the meditation practice gives you is it was like you've got a choice here you can be a victim of this or you can just decide to make it fun and have the best year of winning awards of your life and just love it because what then it's like is it bad is it bad why does it have to be bad doesn't have to be bad just have a really great year I mean some people don't get that year and so I'm grateful that I had that kind of perspective at such a young age you were just it was a lot of pressure so then it was agoraphobia I was terrified to go out were you because people would say how's the album coming along oh god just that and they think they're being lovely and social oh and it was just like, I'm not that good.

43:15I just remember thinking, I'm not that good, just calm down. That was like, you know, I already know, but you're going to have to make me in such a public forum fail. Whereas I'm already there. So it was like, it was so, the biggest achievement was completing that second album.

43:36Davina McCall:You have brilliantly, you know, carried on being a very accomplished musician and bringing us more brilliant music. And after three albums, your relationship with that record company came to an end. And then you moved on. But can we just quickly talk about, was it called Mail? Oh, yeah. The Covers album. I loved that album. Thank you. It was such an interesting and out there idea for a woman to cover men's tracks. And what made you do that? Like I just, it was, it was so different. And I love the tracks you've chosen. I love the way you sound on it. Like it's brilliant. Do you know, I didn't really want a record deal.

44:33And so I'd gotten back into songwriting because I'd quit music because I got dropped by a label. It was kind of my way back into music. But I'd kind of been tricked into going to this record company just to have a meeting for the future. And then I was plonked in an office and I was having to pitch myself to the head of this label. And then I got offered a deal on the spot, which was meant to be for an original material album. And I was tricked. So that's the real story behind that.

45:00Davina McCall:But how mad that, like, you were tricked into getting signed. I was, yeah. Like, that's... Sorry to the people that tricked me, but, yeah, I was told it was just to go in for, like, future reference, but then it was clear that it was a bit of a set-up. But... Can I just say, I loved it. Thank you. The result. Well, I was like, if I'm going to have to... So then I thought I was doing original materials, then I was told, no, you have to do this first, which never ended up happening. I got dropped again. So I just remember walking to this window of this New York office and the voice in my head said, never look a gift horse in the mouth.

45:39Yes. That was it. Still, it's a gift. Because I was angry. I was like having all these mixed emotions. And then that sentence came into my head, never look a gift horse in the mouth. And I was like, all right. Because I could have stayed bitter about how it came about. It's just like just sometimes you just go with the gift horse. Like just go with it. and you don't know what's going to come of it. And thank God I did because I'm in my creative flow. Yeah. And this is definitely what I'm meant to be doing. Yes, for sure. And the recognition that I'm not the best songwriter, I'm not the best singer, I'm a communicator of emotion and that's what changed it for me is trying to be an actress and that was harder.

46:25when I went to Hollywood and, you know, later on trying to do that and that it's enough to be that. I don't need to play a guitar. I don't need to do this. I just need to be me and recognize the gift of when I go inside myself and feel an emotion and sing it to you, you feel it. Wow. That was like, that's really, because only I can do it the way that I do it. that's empowering because then you you know that's all you're not trying to be a good songwriter anymore like I'm a communicator how nice did it feel to realize that it was everything everything because it's like an experiential feeling of what that is the power of that and the decision that I do it to two people in a pub and if I change one life that's it like to have that feeling that I don't need to get to the top arrive anywhere that it's valid and it's not about you know the money or this or that it's like it's about being happy because when when I moved away from what I love doing which I encourage people to do if you're stuck what what do you mean by that when I got dropped by a record label and then I quit music because I thought the universe didn't want me to sing, just decided.

47:49And then I went to Hollywood to try and act and it was so hard and so clunky and I thought that that was my first ambition taken away because this song happened and I was like, I'm really not enjoying this. This is really hard, learning all these scripts. And when I was singing, I could just close my eyes. And so just coming back, like recognizing the gift of what you're meant to be doing by allowing yourself to just walk away from it for a minute.

48:18Davina McCall:And not fail, but not enjoy. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't really want to delve into your relationships per se, but, you know, you haven't got a life partner at the moment. No, but I had what you're talking about in my marriage, you know, until it wasn't that. But I can recognize the effortlessness which has set the bar so high. I mean, it's really – so it's not something that's on my radar right now. No. And I don't know if that's having a child later in life. But a song from my last album, Nothing Missing, it's very true when I say there's nothing missing. I'm not yearning for it. I'm not wishing it away.

49:06I'm not blocking it. It's okay that at this point in my life I'm fulfilled. My work brings me so much joy. Being a parent brings me so much joy. So it's just not a thing.

49:21Davina McCall:I mean it's not a – I think what's interesting is that it's not a conscious decision. You're not making a conscious decision to not be with someone. oh believe me in my 30s I tried really hard yeah but not now no in my 30s it was I was just trying to have that normal post-divorce like I've got to be normal and you know hi just desperate you know and I really wanted a child so I must have just been it must have just been really frightening for men but I did try for 10 years if it's all right I would really love to talk to you about the journey of becoming a mother because there are going to be so many women watching this I have many friends who are at that crossroads in their life um am I going to become a mother or am I not going to become a mother and it's a big life decision to make and it for me um It's been the making of me.

50:28Davina McCall:I am a better person because of my kids. But I would love to just hear a little bit of your journey because nobody tells you. Where can you learn about it? I mean, for me, it was jumping through rings of fire for quite a long time. It's lots of mixed emotions. And one thing I do like to say out loud is I didn't choose some feminist path of not being with a man. Yeah. I think that's really unfair to men because it's been written about that, about me. Oh. That I made this choice. I couldn't get arrested. I couldn't find a boyfriend. I cried really hard for a long time. And then, you know, as a woman, you run out of time.

51:15Time. Yeah. And so then you start going, am I going to have to think about, oh. And there begins the journey. And it's really intense and can be really lonely. Yeah. So I just make myself available to any woman who, stranger at a party or whatever, who needs advice. I give it so lovingly and freely. Because, yeah, I just didn't have that kind of support. And it's hard like hormonally sometimes, the ups and downs. The hormones you have to take and the ritualistic. I was like a soldier. I just, that part I could wrap my head around. I think it's harder when you stop or when a cycle doesn't work and then you've got to pick yourself back up.

52:04That's the hard bit. I think while you're in the routine, you've got your routine and you've got to take this at this time and it's all very, but then when it doesn't go your way, that's the hard part.

52:16Davina McCall:What was it like when it did go your way?

52:21Just the best. Yeah, pretty good.

52:33Davina! Sharing, I think, I spent so much of my life being guarded it's exhausting it is um and that's that's fear of what from being judged too young in an industry that was too critical on women and i think um it's good medicine for me as well like just rip the band-aid off and it's it's okay for people to get to know who you are you're not that bad You know? Can I say something? You're gorgeous.

53:06Davina McCall:Like inside. I am so in awe of everything. Don't make me cry again. Everything you've done. Yeah. It's incredible. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, go somewhere else, try something else. Vulnerable, strong, sassy, like talented. You're just fucking knockout. Like I can't quite get over it. But I feel like you're a little bit like me in that do you quite like being the underdog? Like when you've got to fight for something, I just, it's a personality trait. I'm much more comfortable digging myself out of a hole than being on the top of a mountain and got there. Like now what? Well, now all I can do is fall off the pedestal.

53:51But I just have always been very good at when I have to prove myself. I'll show them, you know, that feeling. It's really, it's character building. So, yeah, I've had to do that a lot.

54:05Davina McCall:You'd tried many times and you got pregnant. Yeah, I think it was at least five-year journey, many, many attempts. Did you worry, because when I got pregnant, I think as somebody who's well-known and something big like a pregnancy happens, I was so fiercely protective by my kids like a lioness. Yeah. So for you getting pregnant after trying and everything and you're on this journey. Yeah. What was that like? Were you like a lioness? Were you like, oh, I don't want to talk people. I do want to talk people. I hid it for six months because the energy coming at you and because I'm quite an energy sensitive person, I just didn't want the energy coming at me.

54:54So I kept it hidden for as long as I could. And then I was like, I mean, there's a price on my head for the photo. So like it's you've got to make certain choices. And I think it was my family friends, the Bransons, were very supportive and helpful with advice at that time of my life. And I just made the decision to put a statement out. And I remember being terrified because I'm very private. And so having to put this statement out to protect myself and the baby, to just get it out the way. And I just remember crying all the way to Oxfordshire, bawling my eyes out. And do you know what? I just got inundated with the most beautiful DMs from all these women just saying, thank you so much.

55:40I need to talk to you. I really want to do that. And it just hadn't occurred to me how many people I could help in just that little, that wasn't that big of a deal. It was just putting a statement out. But, and then realizing that that was actually quite a big deal at that time. So, yeah.

55:59Davina McCall:And then you gave birth. Yes. And you had a son who's six. Yeah. How have you changed? Like what's it changed for you becoming a mum? Like if anybody's watching and they're like, oh, I don't know if I want to. Was it, I mean, you fought for a very long time to get here. Rings of fire. I believe if you've made that soul contract, that child is yours. There's this little thing called time and maybe they want to be a Libra and born in 2019. so you're going to jump through a few more rings of fire but whichever way you become a parent how whatever the story is whether you adopt whether it's my way whether it's it doesn't really matter like when you when you meet your child and you have that recognition it's the most beautiful incredible thing and for some people that's not the thing so there's also people whose destiny in this lifetime is to not have a child and that's okay too I think there's so many social pressures on what your life needs to look like and so I think just follow your intuition I mean I prayed for the yearning to be a mum to be taken away from me because that's what I that was was just to take the yearning away yeah because it was a biological this wanting like if I just didn't want it if I didn't yearn for it then I'd be able to just get on with it um and so and and that's because that soul was there waiting to be a Libra in 2019 you know so I just kept jumping through the rings of fire and and and yeah so it's just the best the best thing ever and it's the most it's like everything else has more joy there's way more stress all you do is schedule your life's just scheduling and but it's so much joy the joy far outweighs the extra stress you know I'd quickly like to talk to you about perimenopause actually because um you talked earlier about thinking I can't do my job anymore I felt exactly the same thing.

58:19Davina McCall:I couldn't remember people's names on a live TV show to the point where my my exec producer came up to me afterwards and said, are you okay? And I was like, yeah, yeah, I'm fine. And then she left the room and I burst into tears. So confusing. Mine was seeing this expression in other people's face. Yeah. Like, you know, like when you're the anxiety and you're like, and then they're like, and so they look a bit frightened. Or the not to 60. Yeah. I was a fury. So they're like, oh, God. And you see it a lot in the day and you're like, it was actually in one of my songs but I changed the whole verse so it was in the song Debbie and it was there's that face again, there's that face again.

59:07And that terrified me. I was like, why am I keeping on seeing that face in other people, not in one person. And everyone's looking at me with this kind of like, you know, who wants to be giving that reaction to someone? It's not cool.

59:23Davina McCall:I did a talk for a company once about the menopause. And I talked about rage and how for women in particular, it's a shameful emotion, right? Yeah. And it's something that often we don't have or we suppress until perimenopause. And then you can't suppress it anymore. And a woman came up to me afterwards and had a little cry. And said, I'm so full of shame. Wow. I've really, the rage is. It's real. Yeah. But I'm Sicilian. I'm already too much. I'm half French. Yeah. So when you're too much before Perry and then you, you know, go through this thing and you're like triple too much, it's hard to, there's a lot of shame.

1:00:10I had the funniest, I have to tell you, I had this breakfast club. What's that? With my girlfriends, but they're all like 10 years my junior. Like we meet up for a breakfast club. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How lovely. And I was telling them. Yeah. Well, how useful are you? I was telling them. Well, yeah, but know your audience. I was like, so, oh, girls, it's been so stressful because, like, I hit Perry and suddenly I'm, like, before a show, I'm really anxious and I'm really tetchy and I'm behaving in this way. And I was talking and talking and, you know, and then this one of the girls, who shall remain nameless, was like, I'm really sorry but I just have to admit that I thought Perry was a person.

1:00:54So this girl was holding space for me to hitting Perry because I hit Perry and then she's thinking, oh, I suppose if I was anxious enough maybe I'd hit someone because I was saying I hit Perry, meaning I hit Perry menopause, got to that point in my life. So she's thinking Perry's a person and that I turned to violence, holding space for the violence, nodding politely and then admitted. And she's like, I thought. Oh, she said something. Yes. She's going, oh, really? And she thought, I wondered if anyone's checked off Perry. And that was my know your audience, 10 years my junior. Because obviously they're not there yet and I'm going, oh.

1:01:34They're super grateful now. Well, I just. They're heading that way. I talk about it at Cotswold's dinner parties. It wasn't popular, but there's a feminist in me that when I had the tiniest bit of shame, I was like, no, this is not okay. Well done. And so I would just speak about it and mouth friends of Michael. Like, you know, how's your vagina? And so, but it's medicine for me to talk about it and removing that shame and that stigma. because the more it's spoken about and the more it's normalized, then the people coming after us don't have to live with the shame. So it's our duty and responsibility to not have to go through that year where we're saying, I don't feel like myself for 12 months.

1:02:20Yes, you can actively take a role in your own future.

1:02:27Davina McCall:Yes. Take a part and decide, make a decision about, I mean, even before you hit perimenopause, you can have a rough idea of when you do what action you would like to take. You can either choose to not take HRT or take HRT. It's great to know before you hit it what path you're going to do. Have you done intervention on women? I've done countless interventions. I've done so many interventions. Yeah. Just let me lather some estrogen on your arm, you know. But I think Instagram's been amazing for women in Paralympos. You single-handedly caused a shortage of estrogen on the NHS. Yeah, but there's still a shortage of patches.

1:03:08This is bad. I bumped into you. Do you remember? Yes, I do. So I watched your documentary and then I saw you in a restaurant and I was like, we need to talk. Yeah. What brand of testosterone? And I wrote down everything and you checked in with me. And I talk about you all the time for what you've done for me because I seen those two women scientists show the picture of the colours in the brain. Yes, Lisa Moscone. I didn't know that it was affecting my brain like that. So just associating it, just not with your period's going to stop, you know, to it's my brain needs feeding.

1:03:47Davina McCall:It's a movement now. It's absolutely brilliant. And there were women before me. I just was right time, right place, I think. No, I just think you use your position to help people. That's nice. And it doesn't matter how uncomfortable it makes you. You do it for the greater good. And so I'm really grateful because I got all the tips direct from you and I've helped so many other women. Yeah, I was just going to say, you know, this is the other thing I love about being a woman. And, you know, being a woman, the reason why we love women is because being a woman is fucking tough sometimes. And we go through a lot and we have crosses to bear, physical, mental, emotional, like, but it brings us closer together.

1:04:39Davina McCall:We will always have something in common with any woman we meet. We'll find something. I just feel like also from when I was younger, It just feels like women are generally more supportive of women. Have you noticed that? Or is that just getting older? I think it's because of what we go through. You know, we suffer. But our suffer brings community. It does. Yeah. And also, I love the idea of what you just said. You tell one woman something valuable and she'll tell ten. Yeah. A couple of things. I've got a couple of gifts for you. Okay. So I just want to show you something from a friend of ours who just wanted to say hi to you.

1:05:25Davina McCall:Ready? Yeah. Hello, Natalie and Prudia. All two of my favourite people sat opposite each other. Joel Dorner here. I just wanted to say, Natalie, you're genuinely one of my favourite people that's ever been on the show. We loved you on The Masked Thing. it really felt like you were one of the first people to sort of properly embrace the costume and have fun in there and the audience is just like fell in love with you and um and you really had a great time and you were a worthy winner and i think still one of my favorite reveals of all time i think i remember saying that i fancy you so much which was yeah which is i i think i've been meaning for the maybe the last of four years or so to apologize for that but i'll be honest i Stand by.

1:06:13Davina McCall:I thought it was a difficult tip. I thought it was you both. I'm glad I'm not in the room. Have a lovely interview. Yeah, speak soon. Bye-bye. Bye-bye, bye-bye. He's so lovely. You know what happened after the show? He and his missus, what's his lovely wife's name? Hannah. Hannah. He and Hannah rang me drunk to tell me that he fancies me, the both of them. And I think they were singing Torn. And I was like, this is wild. You guys are great. Can I tell you something weird? Yeah. Their son is called Wild. No way! Anyway, we've got one other present for you. OK. Thanks, Joel. Love you. Your son. From my son?

1:06:57Davina McCall:Yep.

1:07:01Davina McCall:And he just wanted you to do this. To do this for you. Did he draw this? He drew it. This is him and his mate, Charlie, I think he's called. That's his best friend at school. Which one? So that's Charlie. Charlie, you were eating something and he got some stuff on his mouth. It got all messy. So that's the spaghetti. And it was really funny. Is that me? That's you. What's this here, do you think? My hair? Yes, I think so. This is the cutest. It's the framer. I shall treasure this. That's amazing. Thank you. Love you. That's so sweet. Thank you. Love you so much. Grazie mille. Thank you for having me.

1:07:39Davina McCall:so just in case you missed this episode here um if you love this episode i know you're gonna love that