Penny Lancaster: The Menopause Nearly Broke Me, Why I Chose To Speak Out!

39:14It was a Christmas party, 1998. Wow. Wow. And it was on the circuit of city traders, which my ex was. Yeah. And he was off to one party and I was invited to another. And it looked like we were going our own ways anyway. And as luck would have it, I was with a bunch of girls and I was always the one going like, Penny, when I was younger, go to the cinema, a box office. you buy all the tickets for the movie because they're going to believe you're old enough. So I was the one who was always pushed to the front. Go to the bar and get the drinks in because they're not going to ask you your age because my height always got away with it.

39:59So I owned this position, this responsibility of being the daredevil, the one that would defy all odds. So one of my girlfriends says, Rod Stewart's over in the corner. Please, I'm too nervous. Can you go over? I'll go over, you know. Trotted over. And then I was like, hi, a girlfriend of mine would really love your autograph. Would you mind? Sorry to disturb you. And all the polite kind of, you know, charming, flattering eyes and all that. And he said, yeah, OK, come and sit here. What's her name? You know, how do you spell that? And got the autograph. And he said, well, tell me about you. Why was it you that came over?

40:42Oh! So I was like, well, I'm Penny and I'm studying photography and just out for fun with my girlfriends. And he went, can you dance? Oh, I said, I didn't want to be boastful and say yes, you know, because I'd had some dance classes before, you know, but and I love dancing. So I just said, well, I enjoy dancing. And he went, I'm going to come and watch you. can I just say that's also very sexy very sexy so now I'm like oh you want to watch my moves you know if there is that sense as if you're a good mover on the dance floor good in bed but that's not necessarily no no anyway put that aside yeah so I went back towards the dance floor with all the girlfriends looking to see if I've come back with this my god but wait how long were you gone for because like you've sat down and had a proper convo with Rod probably 15 minutes wow and they're like, where's she gone?

41:41She's disappeared. Oh, she's, you know. But no, I came back and he was surrounded with his band members, all the guys. And so he was following behind. So they're going, oh, there's Penny. And then, well, slightly shorter than me. And then going, oh, my God, he's right behind her. I come directly to the dance floor. He goes off to the bar in the corner and sits by himself and watches. Oh, my God. And you knew. And I knew he was watching every move. And did you pull out the dance? I pulled out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All the better. In fact, I think I cleared the dance lot. No one had a chance out there.

42:18It was Strictly come dancing before Strictly was so proud. So proud, so proud, Penny, so proud. And then they were like, Penny, he's calling you over. So I think if he had the pallets, it would have been 10, 10, 10, going on. So I went over and he said, let me buy you a drink. Looked like thirsty work. so he bought me a drink and then we just got chatting tell me more about yourself kind of thing and he said but before you begin I have to just put this out there that tomorrow in the newspapers you'll see some headlines my wife and I have split oh marriage is over but we're staying together this Christmas for the kids I was like whoa I wasn't expecting that one right but it was very nice it was his honesty and openness and almost vulnerability yeah as well so he was hurting right so it was never a kind of like you know a typical man coming on to you scenario in the nightclub you know how you'd expect it was very honest yeah mature he'd been there before and this was my first time around in a sense so he said the only sort of awkward thing is my wife's here what in the club?

43:40yeah and then I kind of got scared and I said ok I'm going to go and see my friends, just go back to my friends now but it was lovely meeting you, he said will you give your number to my bass player and I'll get you a pass you can come and take photographs at the show because I want you to have an opportunity. You're starting for photography. Yeah. And that's what he's like. He would just like see an opportunity, see someone that could just need that little edge up, that little foot in the door. Can I help you? And I'm a can I help you? Yeah, you are. You know, so we kind of go around helping.

44:16So I went back to dance floor and then I did clock the X as it was and I just thought we're going to stay way away from that that's like that's a lot but I did go with a girlfriend a few nights later to Rod's last show at where was it now I can't remember where it was went to see the show took photographs with my little camera with all these big lenses and everything went backstage afterwards but Rod had already fled yeah you know he needed to get out there because it was yeah the bombs had dropped sort of thing and of course about his okay yeah all the news are broke oh my god right and uh but he left me a program that the bass player carmine had given me and he said look he's sorry he couldn't see you but you know i've got your number here he signed this book for you and it just said be good be good oh yeah okay and i don't think i've ever seen him write be good on anything it's always It was like, best wishes, you know, what have you.

45:23But, and that was it. Didn't hear anything from him for almost nine months. Oh, wow. Nothing. And my life carried on. I was finishing my, well, I was still in the middle of my photography course.

45:41Mickey and I just tethered together. Yeah. Very thin string. That was your partner at the time. Yeah. Yeah. and then I get this phone call on my aunts and phone. Nine months later. Hi, it's Rod Stewart. I'm back in England. Why don't we go for dinner? Let's catch up. And I'm like, someone's joking with me. The friend's having a good old wind-up. And my mum said, don't answer it for at least 24 hours. I was like, what? And I had to take my mum's advice. She'd been right all along with everything else. and so I waited and waited and waited I did all my little delving and trying to find out who would put you know and yeah so I was like it must be him so I called back and it it was I mean it's very distinctive yes it is very distinct I was gonna say or speaking quite difficult yeah yeah Rod's voice I think um and he said let's have dinner are you available tomorrow night I was very you know and I'm not I'm not around for very long and I said yeah sure he said well Look, there's a great, great friends of ours, a couple, Debbie and Alan, local Italian restaurant, High Street, you know.

46:53So it wasn't flash, flash, flash. So he said, I'll pick you up. Will that be all right? And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I told my then partner, Rod Stewart, you remember I got the opportunity to take his picture? He wants to see my photographs. And he went, yeah, sure, go. And that's, you know, all the tau-tau signs that this relationship was done. I mean, who lets their... No one. No. Yeah. So there I was on this wonderful date with this other couple. So it was sort of semi-professional, wants to see my photographs, and his friend is here. So it's not an official date, but obviously there's some igniting of energy going on.

47:36And you can both feel it, right? Both feel it. I was dressed up to here. I didn't want to give any wrong impression. I had trousers on which he hates he always wants to see me in a skirt trousers you know like no giving the wrong impression yeah I'd learnt my lesson I'm like only when I'm ready yes good girl so then that night was over but then it was just do you want to come over do you want to come for a cup of tea do you want to come and da da da and I said well one day it happened to be my my granddad's birthday and anyway the relationship started to grow very slowly. And I told him about my ex and everything that I'd gone through with him.

48:19And he said, you're just going to keep going back, aren't you? You're never going to walk away. And he said, I'm not saying leave him for me. Leave him for you. That's so brilliant. Yeah. Oh, my God, that's so brilliant. You don't need him. No. Oh, my God, that's such a brilliant thing for you. He's not good for you. Yeah. Don't think where you're going to go next. Just go. Yeah. And I was like, and he kept going. That reverse psychologist that parents do with their kids, he's like, go on then. You're just going to go right back to him, aren't you? You're going to go right back. And I was like, no, I'm not.

48:58No, I'm not. And I didn't. That was it. And I remember going back to our house when he was at work. Getting all my stuff. Wow. And then closing that door thinking this is the last time I'm going to close this door. Wow. Wow. And then I stayed at my parents' house. Wow. Yeah. And then he was back in America. I started my next term at the photography college and I carried on doing that course. I was independent. I think that's what he liked. I was going to say. I didn't drop everything. Because you would understand, like, wished off by Rod Stewart. Of course. But I think this is... He saw a strength in me.

49:39Well, and it's very appealing that you have a desire to be independent. Yeah. Because it shows a strength in you. It's not just about the money and making money and being, but it's... I was finding my... You're self-sustaining. Yeah. I was finding my own identity. And how could you create really and truly your own identity under a legend like Rod Stewart? Yeah. How would you be able to rise? but he was the one that helped me yeah and just like you he's somebody that wants to encourage and every time I said I can't do that yes you can but I wouldn't be able to do that and I'm not good at that yes you are yes you can constantly you know you hear from your parents and you think because I never heard it from my teachers but you hear from your parents and you think oh well they're My parents, they're going to love me no matter what, aren't they?

50:34But did you ever have a partner before Rod that cheerleaded you in the way that he has? No. Well, I'd only had one. One. Because really, Penny, I look at you and I see a very sorted, confident, very beautiful woman. and it's hard to find a man that can handle that without feeling threatened or trying to put you down a bit so you don't get too confident because otherwise you're going to fly away. It would take someone really confident. Very experienced. Yeah, and to feel comfortable boosting your confidence in the knowledge that... I mean, the first moment we saw each other, he offered me an opportunity in the photography.

51:19Yeah, yeah. You know, that was the first. Can I tell you the time I fell in love with him with regards to you, though? I fell in love with him because of how he is with you. Aw. Was around the menopause. I was like, it is a time often when men are a bit like her indoors. She's going, oh, my God, sweaty mess, angry, throwing things. I don't know what to do. And it's a bit of a joke. when I saw Rod with you talking about the menopause. I was like, yes, Rod, well done. It was so... What was that like for you, that experience? Because, you know, you wouldn't... I don't mean to be rude or anything, but he's a rock legend.

52:05You wouldn't kind of expect him to be that guy. Well, I always knew he was that guy. Yeah. But, yeah. But, you know, he's always stood up for and being the champion for the underdog. Yeah. For the person that can't stand up for themselves, doesn't have a voice for themselves. So whether he was talking about encouraging men, finger up the bum, no arm done, when it comes to looking at the potential of prostate cancer, you know, don't fear it, men. Get out there and do it. And for a rock star. Yes. To talk about being vulnerable again, talking about those insecurities, those taboo subjects. And seeing how I'd been manipulated and taken advantage of by men, whether it's by men, by the system, by society.

53:02And this was just one of those other scenarios where women are trying to forge their way. They're trying to come together. they're trying to speak out, they're trying to be heard if I can help them and at the end of the day although 50 % of society are going through menopause the other 50 % are going through it with us whether it's the husband or the brother or the kids they're all going through it so like I remember when we talked in front of parliament and I said I know Boris Johnson's wife's not at that age but he will forever regret the day he never gave HRT to women for free because he'll soon find out exactly what it is all about and it's not just his wife that will be going through it.

53:53He will be. The men go through it too. So it's a full circle, isn't it? Can I ask you about when you found out you were perimenopausal because there'll be many listeners here at that stage of their life or they will know someone a bit like you were saying. they'll either be a partner of or a work colleague of because it was really interesting your journey because it was misdiagnosed could you just tell us what happened it was combined compounded by quite a few different factors I mean we all know that when we go into the hormone journey that's our at our adolescence when we're teenagers so my son is a teenager it's classic isn't it I was coming out the other side, losing my hormones.

54:43He was gaining them and I was losing them. We were on, we were two trains on a track heading towards each other. It was like, just blowing up. But then we'd be like crying and hugging and making up. And Rod would be like, what is going on with you two? Like screaming and shouting and then you're all cuddling and making up. Like you said, I mean, yeah, I loved doing all the apologies and hugs afterwards. But the fights were awful. That's a lot, right? I remember. I mean, I had the same thing, the rage to 60. Really terrifying. But then to compound that as well, we were in lockdown. Oh, God, of course.

55:23Yeah. So then you go, okay. You can't go anywhere. He's a teenager. That's why we're fighting. We're in lockdown. That's why I'm going mad. and then when lockdown first happened, there were no tests, were there? But one of the symptoms was high temperature. Sweating, right. I mean, I've got my hyperhidrosis. I've always had that. Yeah. But this is next level though. This was next level. This was this furnace. It was like I was in a cauldron. And I kind of like look at it like in the old days when there were witches and they would burn them at the stake. And there was these crazy, crazy women that were absolute lunatics.

56:08But I think they were menopausal. I think they were menopausal. They were all locked up and killed and hung. They were just menopausal, going absolutely crazy. But that heat would just burn all the way up and you would feel it rising like mercury. And you can't do anything about it. You can't escape. And it was hotter, hotter. And you're thinking, I'm going to combust. How much hotter can I possibly get? and then suddenly it goes, oh, and then it would start down and it would be like, my son, he's 14 now, but he was much older. Aidan, yeah. And he would open doors and windows, go get it, mummy, get it, quick, the breeze is coming, it's coming, and I can waft, you know, here go mummy, like this, they'd all come round and waft me down.

56:53Once we realised that it was this symptom of women of a certain age, we still didn't really know what it was. Yeah. So that was my first symptoms. But I thought initially I had COVID. But then when I got on top of the covers in the middle of the night, then I turned into an ice block and I was freezing cold. I'm like, well, that's not the symptom, hot and cold. I sound like I've got the flu. But anyway, there was much more important things happening because people are dying and all this. So you just passed. So it was just like, come on, just be strong, carry on kind of thing. and then it was one day we were in England all hunkered down together and it was you know that convey about of like breakfast and lunch and dinner and you know like it was that groundhog day and the kids were doing homeschooling and you know it was like that was another level so I got the dinner ready and I'm like boys boys calling calling calling nothing I'm thinking it's getting cold now thinking you know just getting wound up and I'm thinking why am I getting wound up about dinner you know like it's just not in my character not you yeah it's there's your dinner if it's cold you know and i was getting aggravated and the anxiety was building over the most silliest things finally they come into the kitchen and they're rowing and then suddenly i a fuse blew we can all relate to these plates and i just just threw them across the room because my screams and my cries and my weakness, nothing was being seen.

58:29Nothing's working. Nothing was working. So the smashing of the plates, they all were just like, and Rob, boys, in the other room, quickly, quickly. And then I just slid down the side and in this heap in the corner of the kitchen, just going, crying. Because I think what happens, so many women say to me, I don't recognise myself anymore. And these things, I think rage for me and for so many other women was the most frightening and disruptive because rage, firstly, isn't really accepted in women full stop. But when it happens and you're actually quite a pacifist, which I know you are, it's so overwhelmingly frightening.

59:15What am I turning into? Yes, who am I? It's a loss of identity, isn't it? Yeah.

59:23So Rod, as Rod is, comforted me. He didn't know what it was, so he couldn't help me or fix me. He's like, we've got to get to the bottom of this. You can't carry on like this. We can't carry on like this. I mean, how many marriages break down at this time? Because women would just push the men's way and, you don't understand, leave me alone and all that kind of thing. And it's like, I needed help and I wanted help. so I went to a doctor and he man wouldn't have gone through it maybe had not seen anyone around him but if he had I'm sure lots of women had similar complaints didn't recognise it and as we know when you're training to be a doctor it's not compulsory wasn't compulsory to learn about menopause it was like a oh if you'd like to yeah we've got a little module over here you can do if you want yeah so So I just said, I keep crying all the time and everything's overwhelming.

1:00:22Let's put you on some antidepressants. And I was like, anything. I didn't care. You're a doctor. You're a professional. You know what you're doing. Just whatever you think. Or let's just experiment. Just help me. So I started taking them. I felt like it got worse. It numbed me so I couldn't be happy. And at least I had some happiness when I was okay. but I didn't get really low and angry either. I was just like numb. See, that's a frightening place to be, I think, for a perimenopausal woman because you're taking the thing that's supposed to make you better and they end up increasing it a little bit because, oh, well, maybe we haven't got the dose right, it's not working properly, and then that still doesn't work and then you think you're mad.

1:01:04I really am mad. So how did you find out? Loose women, ladies. Yeah. Other ladies. Yeah. I've been gone through it having talked about it. Isn't it amazing? I've talked about it. Talking. Yeah. And they were like, Penny, it's not depression, it's menopause. I was like, I'm not old enough. I'm too young. Don't be silly. Don't be silly. It's meant to be like, you know, walking cane. I don't even remember my mum. Never having heard of the word or recognised the symptoms. or I had a thing as well where I didn't want to admit that this was happening because I felt like it was meaning that I had to let go of my sexiness and youth.

1:01:52Yeah, let go of who you are. Yes, who I was. Yeah, yeah. And actually I did have to, but, I mean, look at you. it's the birth of a new absolutely a new confidence and sexiness that is better than before a more a more confident what do you find absolutely the way I see it is is like a the beginning of a life where you have a caterpillar and they go into the chrysalis and then the caterpillar falls away and the butterfly is revealed yeah so i i feel that i've become the butterfly yes and i i believe the chrysalis is what all women are born with that's our protective layer yes that's our barrier that's our invisible shield yes it's the menopause the the um it's the hormones it's the progesterone estrogen testosterone that that cocoon that's that's that's our protective layer so we can take care of everyone we're kind of held protected in in in behind our hormones um nothing can touch us so that we can go and take care of everyone whether it's the house whether it's our our partners our children and we can do all of that seamlessly you know rising above all the bumps in the road and we could just take care suddenly that chrysalis, that barrier, those hormones start crumbling away.

1:03:29And to start with, you're on the edge of that cliff and you're just trying to clamber back and hold back and hold on to what was. But in fact, if you find the help that you need, you can take off and go, I'm here. It is amazing, isn't it? Yeah. I mean I really love you being on this podcast in particular I think because obviously this concept of begin again you've lived and breathed it all your life and getting to know you a bit and you as a young woman, a very young woman and feeling this sense of right and wrong and fairness and justice that you've always felt and then seeing all the activism that we've done and I've been so proud to stand next to you oh like um hasn't it been amazing like really beautiful i fucking love you um being next to you for that has been such an honor but but you being a special constable like really took the like i was i was just like she's done what i love that we'll talk about turning oh it's so good at 50 yes melopausal did that how going well it was the tv show yeah amazing experiencing working alongside regular police officers and special constables and them actually saying the reason they do what they do they feel they can make a difference that's you Like, I've been trying to.

1:05:07And if this is a more tactile, more, I don't know, tangible way, because we can all do our charity work and ring the bell and donate and forge and raise awareness. But this is frontline, immediate, as it happens in the moment, even if it's helping just that one single person. I've seen footage of you with somebody that's been a victim of crime and it's very moving. From the TV show? Yeah, yeah. It's really like... Well, the thing is, I think, a woman of our age, what we've gone through, the experience we've had, the empathy, that is such a key to be a police officer, is having empathy, having understanding.

1:05:56So it's not sympathising. No, it's actual proper empathy. I know what this, I can imagine I'm, you know, being a mother, talking to kids, making those mistakes they do. God, it's invaluable actually. Now you saying all of that, that's really amazing. I mean, motherhood should be on a CV. Yeah. It's, you know, I can't put my A-levels down, but I've lived and I've experienced and I've seen and I've got something to offer. so at 50 after I came out of this tv show I was like I think I can train it over a period of eight months um it was evenings and every other weekend and I did go how is this going to affect my family you know it was 200 hours a year and in the first few years I did over that this year I'm under because I've spent a lot of time with my husband out on tour with the kids.

1:06:59So I've got to catch up. But it's foot patrol on a Thursday evening, January, around the streets, the city of London. And I mean, I could see the difference that they were having on the streets in Cambridgeshire. And I was sort of torn between do I join the Met, do I join the city? And I love the city. I love London. My father was a lawyer in the city of London. I love architecture I just felt this is where I need to be to look after the city that I love and the community and the people and of course they come from all over the world so it's a real mixed bag of lots of different cultures and you've got the city people but then you've got all the visitors that come and we look after the square mile and all the bridges so sadly when I first started on the street it was lockdown and people would take themselves to the bridges so that was always and it still is a very daunting task when you get a call that someone's is heading you know someone's threatened to take their life but we have a great support system in in the city we have um a triage nurse that's on duty we have the samaritans and there was many different agencies that work together and as far as safety for women there is a an operation called operation reframe and we have a welfare tent that is set up at liverpool street station oh yeah and there'sst john ambulances samaritans there's police officers police officers from different forces as well all coming together where anybody can walk up male or female adult child whatever can walk up to this safe place maybe not as confident to go into a police station, but this is a welfare tent.

1:08:52Oh my God, that's amazing. Things that are at a police station sometimes is quite daunting. And it's like, I'm going to have to make a statement, whereas this is just you can come and speak, you know, in complete confidence. But also for someone that feels vulnerable at night, maybe they've had too much to drink and they're scared about getting on the train in the evening. Maybe I had a group of girls come over with their friend and they thought that she'd been... biked because she'd only packed according to them only had one drink and she was all over the place and being ill and there could be someone that says i'm often concerned making my journey from my workplace to the station it's i've got this very dark street that i go down well if that's brought to our attention we could do something about the safety of that street when it comes to lighting and and then of course there's the ask for angela we do a lot of so amazing a lot of our duties are to do premises checks, licensed premises checks.

1:09:50So we go in and we make sure they've got all the correct certificates and all the toilets are how they should be. And they've got all the signs up for safety and that all the staff members are aware of Ask for Angela. So in any predicament where any member of public feels unsafe, maybe on a first date or a blind date or whatever situation if they feel that they they're trapped they can go and ask for Angela and the bar staff will understand that means I need help and go call the police so it's that you know the police force are trying to understand the needs of the public and putting those safeguardings in place I really feel like special councils have made an enormous difference to how the nation feels in terms of safety and safeguarding.

1:10:43I quickly just wanted to ask you about what being a special constable has given you because I feel it is something where you are giving to society but what's it giving to you? You've hit it on the nail actually because I often get asked why policing, why policing and writing this book has helped me really hit the nail on the head. It's because of what I went through when I was younger the suspects never got found justice was never had and I've been searching for ways to help others and protect others and hello policing just came my way like the two of us found one another but I really thought that that was just another avenue for me to give back but what it's given me in return is more than I could have ever expected I mean it was kind of like is this really me in this uniform you know the Mr Ben can I just say I think you look so good I'm like oh Benny looks such a boss in that but it's a serious outfit I mean it's not a sexy outfit at all you are a boss woman in that the thing is though the members of the public the police are the public and the public are the police we only police with the consent of the public but half the problem is the trust it's weakened so much a lot of the time by what's projected in the media and there's not enough I try to project the positive face of policing and a lot of the public do just see a uniform they don't see a penny a mum, a sister or the guy that's a brother and an uncle and a father.

1:12:33I don't see we're all just like you. We're all the same. We just put the uniform on. But I mean, the police must be so grateful for you because you're such, you're in the I'm champion. Yeah. And you're such a good role model. How important it is to be able to volunteer if you can. I'm thinking for so many viewers who are at midlife where they might have a bit of time where they could do some volunteering and how. Penny can do it. Anyone can do it. Because I thought, genuinely thought, you have to be a certain type to be a police officer. Well, you are that type. The police surface, though. But they need all types.

1:13:07All types, yes. Because we're all types. So our force needs to reflect society. So it needs a bit of everybody. That's what's great about the specials, because they come from all sorts of walks of life. They don't come from police families, necessarily. They can be everybody and anybody. and I think that feeling of knowing right from wrong is at the core of everybody that wants to and everyone has a story everyone makes mistakes everyone starts somewhere and sometimes we just need to have that little bit of guidance I was thinking about how nice this book is for your kids why have you written this now?

1:13:49do you think? someone like me by the way yeah everybody someone like me because there are many people like me and I think when when people are going through a difficult time a trauma you do feel alone you think I'm the only one going through this but in fact we're all going through our own ups and downs in our lives and I've only sort of realized who I am as a person and found the confidence to be okay with my

1:14:28to be okay with with not being perfect you know the the sort of person I tried to strive to be and it's it's all right to not be your best all of the time and that whatever you bring to the table is the best I can give and that's enough and therefore I've really grown into my own and it's only now that I feel that I can pass that knowledge on to people that kind of feel lost whether it's women or men or teaching my boys about menopause you know when when their teacher's a bit grumpy just how you're the kids in your class they're going through all the hormone changes and you're learning about that at school.

1:15:14But women, your teachers are going through it on the other side. And so it's really just bringing everybody in. I want to talk to you about your boys, actually, because you just brought them up there and teaching them about menopause. But, you know, as a woman who has suffered at the hands of some just bad men, bringing up good boys in today's society, how important has that been to you? Extremely. important but Rod is the best shining example of what a gentleman how you should treat women I mean some might say it's old-fashioned values but I think they're cause of these you know just this standing up at the table when a lady leaves the table you know opening a door for someone there might be some women going I'm strong enough I don't need a man I can open my own door that's fair enough yeah that's how you want to be that's fair enough but I think it's supporting I think it's politeness yeah yeah open the door for the guy that's standing there doesn't have to be a woman but it's just having manners and consideration for other people it's not you know we're all in a rush to get somewhere but there's other people standing beside you behind you like just look out for everybody around you and And Rod and I, of course, like any couple, will have our disagreements.

1:16:40And sometimes he might say things to me that he might regret or thinks, oh, I could have chosen a better way of putting my message across. And I remember there was one time we were in the car and we were taking the boys to school. And it was just all rushing around like you do in the morning, you know. And we're in the car off the way. and we were disagreeing about something the boys were in the back and then Roger said stop the car stop the car and he turned around to the boys in the back and he said you need to listen to this he said mummy I'm sorry

1:17:23he said I shouldn't have spoke to your mother like that he said we can have disagreements and we can say things that we don't really mean but we never want to hurt that person really. How good is that? So you always say sorry. So great. And that makes you the best man you can be. Parenting like that from the same page is so important. I'm so pleased you've got each other. Me too. Honestly. I'm pleased that you guys Oh my god Try the food And this book really is an amazing It's like being held And I think it's something that your kids will love But I think lots and lots of people Men and women actually I feel like will get a lot from this Thank you, Debina And thank you from the bottom of my heart For being so honest It's hard It's hard to foot flush it out but I think it was important yeah yeah and um I I can't tell you how much love and respect I've got for you you're kind of like a new a new friend for me but just for all the work that you've done for other women and I really admire you and um thanks for being part of my life and everyone else's thank you darling I love you I love you

1:19:01Thank you.