Relationship Expert: Why Independence Is Killing Your Intimacy & Can Men & Women Be "Just Friends"?

24:56Davina McCall:difference and i think if you know about the difference that's the first step right yes yes exactly where becoming aware of it and respecting it respecting it you know we all have slightly different capacities to tolerate things yes and just because we're a couple doesn't mean that we have the same and that needs to be understood by both you know if somebody's social battery just can't take what the other one can the other one thrives the other one can't that's got to be negotiated it's got to be navigated otherwise people are going to feel rejected or abandoned or disliked nothing to do with any of that I mean I loved what you said about intention earlier and I think you can see knowing someone's intention towards you is everything yes this is something we have to sort out so often in the room this these these these narratives these scripts that people attach to the other one cut one part of the couple will attach to the other or he won't like that or she doesn't she she doesn't appreciate that how do you know these are assumptions where's the actual communication is that because they don't can't see in here they're not they're not connecting in in a in a in an unfiltered way there's too much going on and we've got to understand that couples are really facing a lot at the moment there's a lot going on for couples how what do you mean well cost of living is terrible you know people are struggling there's no there's no safety nets come on we there used to be a national health there used to be a national health there used to be really sound education system there used to be dentists there used to be all sorts of there used to be all sorts of safety nets and that's not the case plus plus people have ended up living away from their nearest and dearest so there's less help available i mean these are the you know these are real problems that i see in couples over 40 you know those relentless years those when when the kids are still around the team that's when and you're looking after your parents and then you've got this kid yes and your menopausal or menopausal like together together all of that i mean those relentless years are brutal and it's no surprise that you know working therapists will tell you between 16 and 22 years that's when they're coming in that's when the couples are coming in because all it's too much it's too much and sometimes that's that's what they need they just need somewhere safe to be somewhere safe to consider what what's going on for them and when you say somewhere safe it's somewhere where you You can voice how you really feel without the fire happening that normally happens when you're at home and broach it.

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28:28Davina McCall:Give it a try. Download Salee in the App Store or by scanning the QR code that's on your screen right now. And for a cheeky 15 % off your first purchase, you can use the code DAVINA at checkout. That's DAVINA for 15 % off. You know when you've got that little idea in the back of your mind, something that you think, you know what, I might do that one day. And then life gets kind of busy and it just sort of stays there. Well, I was thinking about how sometimes overwhelming it can feel when you actually try to start something, design, writing, photography, payments, tech, all of it, it's a lot. Well, Shopify, whose sponsors begin again, sort of takes that chaos and it makes it feel achievable because it gives you a place to build your shop without needing to be an expert.

29:21Davina McCall:It's got templates, it's got tools that help you write product descriptions and nudge you along a bit when you get stuck. It means that you can just start. If you've been sitting on an idea or you could just maybe have a look, try it out. Go to shopify.co.uk. If you want to, you can sign up for£1 per month trial and you could actually start selling right away. I mean, if someone's watching and they can't afford to go and see a relationship counsellor, How can you as a couple sit at home and take the fire out of something that is normally full of angst and anger? So the first thing is to understand the triggers.

30:07Yes. So let's talk about triggers because triggers are important.

30:10Davina McCall:Everybody's what you say, five. You say everybody's got about five. About five. Yeah. About five triggers. So, you know, most couples have got about five triggers. So identifying those is critical. So what is a trigger? So it is something that is said or done that actually pierces the other in such a way that they can become hurt. They can feel rejected. They can feel criticized. And it could be something old from your childhood, something where. It could be anything. Anger is one of mine. If someone's angry at me. You don't like it. I want to cower in a corner. Oh, OK. So that's a. Yeah. So what do you do with that?

30:49Davina McCall:I've got better with it. Yes. I've trained myself out of it. But that's when I can see the intention that somebody had, that they love me, but they're angry. They're not angry potentially with me. They're angry at the situation. Exactly. So you've trained yourself to that. You've trained yourself to that part. But it used to make me close down. You'd bunker. You'd bunker away. You'd just bunker down and that's it, not speaking, you'd just withdraw. Yes. Understanding these triggers, understanding that something has pierced the other. Let's call it pierced. Some people talk about… That's a good description.

31:28Yeah, it's pierced the other in some way. OK, and they're going to react. And so they react defensively or they blame or they escalate. And that's what starts. That's what starts the whole cycle, the vicious cycle of, oh, here we go. Because obviously the other always happens. You overreact. You overreact. The other has no idea actually what's you. You're overreacting again. And that's it. The escalation starts, the twister starts taking them both up and spits them both out. That's another good description, twister, like I can just imagine. In you come. You're going over that way. You're going over that way.

32:09Out. Go on. And then they flee. So that sort of escalation is really common, isn't it? Can you name me some triggers? Tone of voice. Timing. Timing. People don't understand how critical timing is. I can't tell you. What do you mean? I can't tell you. So very often it's a night out. OK, so one part of the one part of the couple thinks, great, I can bring this all up now. We can talk about this. You know, tricky subjects because we're going to be out and it'll be nice. And the other partner is up for a night out. OK, the last thing they want to hear about is holiday plans, kids, anything, anything.

32:51They just want fun. And that's guaranteed to put a real downer on the night. Timing. Or if somebody's just come in after work and actually needs time to transition, you know, that sort of commute home, exhausted, they need time to transition. Take 10 minutes. Just don't jump on them as they come in the door because they actually can't transition that quickly. So timing is a big one.

33:18Davina McCall:I think that is a really interesting one. transitions are very difficult for some they they're not they don't adapt easily they're they might be sort of hyper anxious or kept themselves in a hyper vigilant state all day because they've been at work or had to deal with stuff and then they're still they're still feeling that way as they walk through the front door and it's not even it's not even sometimes I think just the people are going um I've been with the kids all day could you help me yeah it's not even that Even if somebody bounds up to somebody at the door and wants to have sex with them, it's like, just give me 15 minutes.

33:55Davina McCall:I can't do it. So you'd think, but I'm rewarded. Then you're rejected. And then it starts. Well, of course he doesn't, she doesn't, he, she doesn't, doesn't, doesn't love me. What's happened? Now I'm rejected and off you go withdrawing. And that happens so often. That you're thinking. So often. Just give me 15 minutes. I'd love to be like that. Can I just calm down? I can't tell you how many couples, you know, one might start something in the kitchen and the other one is just not ready. Just not ready. And so they stop trying. They stop approaching. They stop initiating. They stop going in for the hug.

34:30Because actually they haven't quite understood that the other needs time to transition and be ready for that. It's a positioning that somebody needs. They're not that adaptable or open. Do you know Paul Brunson?

34:44Davina McCall:Yeah. Obviously. He came and did a chat on here and he said something that was so brilliant. And he said, foreplay starts the minute you stop having sex. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, oh, really? Of course it does. Like that makes complete sense. And all these things that you were talking about earlier, about those little shows of intimacy. Yes. Those are the kind of things that's foreplay. Yeah, of course it is. You know, that's like saying I love you. Rather than 10 minutes before you want to have sex, you know, saying fancy a shag tonight, like scheduling it in so unromantic. Now, now. Yes, no, go, sorry.

35:25Sorry, I'm a great believer. No, don't. I'm a great believer in scheduling.

35:29Davina McCall:Don't ever worry about telling me off. Tell me off. I love it. So scheduling is good. I love scheduled intimacy. Oh, really? I love it. Tell me why. Do you know what? I'll tell you why. because when I say this in the room, one goes, what are you talking about? What about all that spontaneity? And my first answer is, great, when did you last have sex? Yes, how's that working for you? How's that working for you? Yes. And there's always that silence. Actually, you might have a point. But I'm a great believer in scheduling intimacy. Intimacy, it doesn't have to be sex. You can't just say, oh, we're going to have sex that night.

36:04I ask you to describe what intimacy looks like. like what would what could that be is it instead of going to bed one with the phone one with the ipad headphones on instead of that why wouldn't you say right every couple of weeks do you know what we're going to put some candles on we're going to go upstairs just we'll leave the kids whatever and we'll just hang out let's just hang out let's just chat let's just be upstairs maybe get into something comfortable doesn't mean that we have to have sex that's not the idea is that we are creating an intimate atmosphere the idea is that you and i are going to actually just hang out in a nice in a nice environment a comfortable environment we haven't got our day clothes on or our shoes we're just being comfortable put you know put a nice silky thing on or whatever what's wrong with that so i have become a bit of a demon about scheduled intimacy but i love this

36:58Davina McCall:idea of a couple going upstairs getting into comfy clothing i'm imagining people sitting cross-legged opposite each other on the bed sometimes you have to get talking yeah talking or if they can't if they find that hard sometimes you know the um school of life and the card games with all those get you talking yeah we'll get you talking so if people are having difficulty just starting great recommendation fantastic really fantastic so if they're there and they can just have a have a card if they're finding it difficult or this feels a bit weird i don't you know okay have a read of this let's have let's have a go with this let's try something but it's getting It's intentional, intentional connection, which is what makes, oh, no, not what makes, it's what keeps a couple going.

37:42Davina McCall:What about, so if one wants to have sex and the other doesn't, how can you bridge the gap? Oh, it's so funny. I never forget this. Way back, way back, way back. there was a couple in Canary Wharf and he was so down to earth about this he said do you know what if I get three out of ten hits I'm doing well I don't mind stayed with me for years and I have to say this to couples you know it's not always going to be the right moment it's not always going to be and yes you may have different appetites but you've got to talk about that yes they have to talk about that that's got to be managed don't let it manage the couple the couple need to manage that i don't know everybody has their own deals you know i'm a great believer in couple deals i'm always i'm always never i'm always negotiating couple deals so all the old models are gone aren't they you don't have to get married you don't have to have don't have to you don't have to the old breadwinner might be either one of you um there's polyamory groups of people there's what is infidelity in any couple because it changes on blue therapy had two types of infidelity three types of infidelity so I like I like to think that I like when I'm working with couples right okay new year out I send my list of come on let's have a think about it what worked for you individually what didn't work for you individually what works for your couple what didn't work and actually now bring it all together so we have a session bring it all together now what are the what are the what's going on what are the new rules for the next year what do you want to achieve what don't you want to achieve what didn't work um it's a it's a sort of a negotiated a negotiated an agreement okay um what is infidelity younger couples these days what's infidelity for you changes with every couple every couple might change throughout a relationship precisely my point which is why these couple deals are so I find them a really good a good piece of work to do with couples because then they can come back six months later or a year later and actually think about it, do you know what?

40:01Menopause, not in great space don't feel, you know I'm not like I was, I'm not like I was so we've got to work around that, we might need to change things up a bit

40:12Davina McCall:Okay guys I need you in my begin again gang, listen it's the most funnest most awesome club in the whole world and I want you to be part of it. So when you sign up to our newsletter you get all the bits that I don't share anywhere else. Things that I'm loving, what I'm reading, my favourite outfits, some of the most gorgeous begin again stories that you've sent in. I actually really love reading those, it's one of my favourite parts of the week and the really fun bit is I will also share some begin again secrets like what guests we've got coming up and you'll know before anyone else does. Shh, don't tell everyone.

40:56Davina McCall:So come and join the best gang ever. The link's right below and it just takes five seconds and it's free. What other kind of triggers can people go through? Because you said like people often have five, you know, like old past like hang-ups that yeah they sometimes through i mean after abuse or something like that yes but they're not sort of the day-to-day triggers they they are they're sort of more deeply embedded and they they live they live there all all the time they they need work the triggers that i'm talking about are the sort of ones that get you know stupid triggers like leaving the dishwasher for example you know how many times have people mentioned the dishwasher oh really oh my god how How many times I do the dishwasher and then he or she comes and changes the dishwasher and off they go in the kitchen.

41:48Why do you have to do that? Why can't you just leave it? I mean, it's a trigger. Because there's a need for order. There's a need for order in one mind that is not the same as the order in another mind. Let it go. But people can't.

42:01Davina McCall:They get triggered. But I was just going to say, like, you know, have you had people going, well, that's easy for you to say, but it drives me fucking mad. Yeah. How can you get out of that? Well, then we have to talk about where's your capacity to tolerate? Come on, let's have a think about it. How do you make this environment, this couple environment, more able to tolerate both of you? Come on, we've all got quirks. We're all different. We've all got these little bits and pieces. How do we get to acceptance of those without them being triggers, without them understanding, actually? I'm not going to say that now because it's just come in.

42:38Give him 10. give him you know or oh it's that time of the month so um i know that she's not feeling very well and i won't mention that today i'll do it later maybe i'll go and get a bunch of flowers something just having an awareness of each other's triggers actually de-escalates so often what could have become something ridiculous and the point is those escalations within a couple they are they're exhausting yes and they wear away at the very they wear away at the patience of the couple they wear away at the tolerance and then you've got this again that's when the couple just starts to move away from each other because they can't be bothered but if there is an intention to sort of find out actually what what what can i do not to trigger Let's think about that.

43:31I mean, I have people sort of, if they've had a bicker, if they've had a bicker, you know, separate. And then the next day, can we have a process conversation? Yes. Can you tell me, please, exactly what it was that triggered you? Okay, yes. Because I don't want to do that again.

43:46Davina McCall:Oh, wow. So that's so nice because that's saying, I know I triggered you. I don't want to do that again. I don't want to do it. Yeah, please just tell me. That's such a nice way of coming about it rather than go, you triggered me. No, no, no, no, no. I did it. Oh, yeah. I did it. Please, please. What was it? Just tell me. I don't want that to happen to us. And if I know, then maybe I can avoid it. And that really works. and also I think if somebody said that to me I'd be so appreciative I'd go thank you for couples like it, they like it they're starting to get to know each other again because don't forget with the general I don't know, life it's too busy people don't get they get to know each other, you know, they're together before the kids come along and they know each other then in this wonderful you know, full flows of limerence and free and do whatever yes spontaneous sex happens all the time yeah yeah everywhere everywhere nobody nobody's thinking about it but don't worry when your kids leave home it all happens again it does i've got lots of people that you know really really they can rekindle after that you know they can get back to normal but yes that's yeah it's it's that sort of um it's getting to know each other keeping in touch with each other well have you developed that cough Where did that come from?

45:10Is that that vape? What are you doing? How is it? Is that good for you? Or I know you're trying to give up. That feels caring, right?

45:17Davina McCall:Yes. It's not like lecturing. No. That's coming from love. No, from love. Yes. The nagging, that's, you know, that sort of constant repetition. That doesn't necessarily have to happen. There can be a different way of communicating. because those da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da all the time just wears away at the fabric of the bond. It's exhausting as well. Yeah, it can be. It can be. You know, when you wake up the next day and that's been... Yeah, and you open your eyes and it's like, oh, here we go again. We've done this. Yeah. That's another rule that I have. No talking at night. No deeper meaningfuls at night.

45:58No.

45:59Davina McCall:Oh, no deeper meaningfuls in the bed. No deeper meaningfuls in the bed. otherwise they're... Oh, wow, okay. Well, I guess then the bed becomes a hostile place. Yes. Or not a hostile, but, you know, like a... Not a sexy place. Not a sexy place, not a kind place. It can discombobulate those deep and meaningfuls. Somebody's tired. So something needs to... Like, if you're going to have a deep and meaningful, you need to make an appointment in a different room. Make an appointment. Come on, emotional check. Let's go somewhere else. Let's sit down. Yeah. Had this with Ben Branson on the Hidden 20%. He said, well, I can't go to bed if the argument is still live.

46:33And I said, but what about your wife? She's got three kids all day. She can't have a deep and meaningful at 11 o 'clock at night. No, that can't happen. He wasn't happy about it, but he did, you know, he took it on. But he saw it. Actually, do you know, I've always been told that you can't go to bed on an argument, but actually perhaps sometimes it's better to leave it until everybody's fresh and not take it into that bedroom.

46:57Davina McCall:So it sounds like if somebody's in real crisis, it takes a lot of work. You've both got to be prepared to put in the work. It's not something you can just go, oh, well, we just love each other. It's not like that. You must work to keep a relationship alive. I really believe that. I think everybody could come into a couples therapist for, you know, a six week, six session MOT. Yeah. And to say, look, this is what we're thinking about. Yeah, fine. Let's have a think about that. And even good couples. Yes. Even good couples could benefit from sitting with somebody, a safe space. And actually, can you help us with this?

47:35We keep doing this. Let's have a look. Let's unpick that. Let's think about how we could, you know, change that, shuffle that up a bit.

47:41Davina McCall:Well, imagine the joy for you having like a healthy couple come in and you can help them unpick something. You're not having to deal with any dramas or anything. It's like, well, that's actually a healthy couple is when the work is that's really, you know, you get straight into it, straight into it. Because the first job is managing the crisis. Yes. Calming it all down. Yes. And then getting de-escalated. Yeah, the de-escalation. Yeah, that's the first job. I mean, I can't get through to the end of this without mentioning infidelity and trust, loss of trust. I mean, there was quite an interesting one you talked about because loss of trust isn't just infidelity.

48:16No.

48:16Davina McCall:It can be when a secret or a lie. Ha, when's a lie a lie? Yeah, that was like profound. There's lies and lies, isn't there? Just been talking about this, actually. When is a lie a lie? Because people, they don't think they're lying. They will tell, they will cover things up because they are ashamed of something. The blue therapy was good at this because Mike wasn't lying. You know, the guy that used to go out and go around the corner and then come home, even though he'd lost it, pretend he was going to work. But it's that it's that covering up and people, people with their own levels of shame, not being able to tell the truth, which we see in couples.

49:00We do see that. And it's not just I mean, the big ones are infidelity.

49:04Davina McCall:but again i mean i've seen i've seen couples who can't like one person can't tell the truth because the person that they're talking to gets so upset fear of that yeah that they they're frightened of the escalation escalation the the reactivity like to be honest the reactivity they can't be honest because when they are all hell breaks loose yes but what's that about what's that about why is that reactivity quite why is it there and why why does that you know what what's what's the missing piece there for those two and how do people come back from infidelity well esther's esther parel's brilliant on this isn't she those those those infidelities are they the opportunity to rebroker your entire relationship and they can be they can be what was the infidelity how was it there's levels of infidelity yes there's levels of deceit there's levels of dishonesty it's a big one it's it's a it's it's the thing that comes in and it's tricky but it's also like i think the big thing is i guess i would like to believe that if you are happy with someone and your your relationship is fulfilled but it must be possible for one person to think that the marriage is great and the other not the other not yeah or the other is that possible yeah it is possible or the other is just a little bit more sort of seeking seeking stimulation outside the marriage is so could it be that someone just wants to have a fling with someone else but they still love their wife yes yes it can but not even a fling i mean there's got to be there's there has to be rules yeah to say it but there has to be rules own the fact that when do you put the rules down at the beginning and then that's my couple deal rules.

50:52What's infidelity? Is it a deal breaker? What is it? Is it that you're having a sort of an emotional affair at the office? Is that infidelity? What does an emotional affair look like?

51:02Davina McCall:Not a physical one. It's not physical, no. It's where you have, you seek somebody out at the office. Are you cheating if you have a sort of an emotional connection and talking to that person about your private life or how you're feeling? And would you keep that person secret from your... You probably, you may not even keep them secret, but do you own the whole level of the actual relationship? How would you feel about that? How do you feel about that? Is that infidelity? Well, that's interesting because for some people, it definitely would be. The work wife or the work husband, you know, that sort of scenario, that comes up quite a lot.

51:39And yes, it is. It can threaten the other partner. That does sound quite right. What's up there?

51:46Davina McCall:and I'll be interested to see your take on this I have really probably been quite boundaried around my very close relationships with members of the opposite sex because at some point if you get too close there's going to be some fuzzy there's a blur from one of you sometimes what you're saying is that there's the potential for that and you don't want to run the risk of that potential No, and I don't want to lead someone. Exactly, exactly. So you're being very boundaried about it and decided. Boundaries are good. Boundaries are good. But what's your take on, like, can guys have really close work wives or whatever and be best friends and go out for lunch and stuff?

52:33Davina McCall:So I'm quite interested in the idea of a work husband. Stop. Women can do work husbands. Because it's all platonic, but I just don't think men can do it platonically. Because men can't have girlfriends. Friends. Men can't just be friends with girls. If they're given the opportunity, they'll take it. Where women, I don't think are as bad as well. Men can't have work wives. Men can't keep anything platonic, I don't think. That is absolutely dependent on how honest they are with their actual partners. Right. And I would say there is always, you run a risk, and you know the point at which you're running a risk.

53:06You can feel it. You can feel it, and maybe they will run that risk if things aren't okay at home. At home, yeah. Because if things are okay at home, it's really hard for a third to get in. Yes. It is really hard. You know, it's difficult for somebody to actually penetrate a good couple. It's difficult. And this is why, like, it's so important to work on your relationship.

53:30Davina McCall:That's right. To keep it live. To keep it live. They are live. Relationships are live entities. They need feeding. They need watering. They need thinking about. They need to be worked on. You can't just say, oh, yeah, I'm married or I'm, yeah, this is, you can't just do that. That won't, it won't work. It's not a stagnant thing. It doesn't stay like that. It needs to develop. It needs to be looked at and cared for. And when it's dying, you can both feel it. Yeah. Yeah. You can. You can. And that's the danger zone. And then there's your decision. Right. What do we do now? Come on, let's get some help.

54:08Let's get some help.

54:09Davina McCall:So we asked our viewers, listeners, if we could get some questions from them. So why, in your experience, are you taking me a lot more seriously now I'm wearing glasses? Yes, I am actually. It's quite frightening. Hang on, I'll just do this. Hang on, I'll do this. You do this. I'm sorry, you do, don't you? I've seen you do this. You've seen me do it all the time, yes. Over the end of the glasses and then it's like a kind of... And then something comes, yeah, I'll say something. Yeah, I know, I know. bit of my own medicine here yeah now you know how how they feel right oh my god i'm gonna have to think about this hold my hand don't leave me hanging i love you it's having such a nice time thank you so much thank you okay so why does love fizzle out boredom or chemical well Well, boredom.

55:00It's not chemical. Chemicals are, they can be renewed, they can be regenerated. It's boredom. If you've lost the curiosity, you have lost the ability to actually want to know something about somebody, want to connect with somebody, then that's that. Chemistry is, okay, I love him, but I don't fancy him. That's a state of mind, actually. All right? It's a state of mind. there are loads of ways that a couple can be inventive in the bedroom and bring back some chemistry so i don't some ways well well we've talked about them be intimate um anything there's this world is just full of potential for raunchy raunchy experiences wherever there's so much out

55:44Davina McCall:there i mean it's been interesting actually um on this podcast what's appealed to people because i think because a lot of our audience are maybe beginning again a second chapter in their lives and like what do we do? It's like sex as you get older, I guess people would be a bit more free. It's like let's do some role play. Let's try something different in the bedroom. Outside. Would you go poly... You talked about polyamory. Polyamory. What's polyamory again when you have a third... Third, fourth group. It's very dependent actually. It's quite tricky polyamory but lots of people are making it work.

56:23Lots of people just think that that's... As long as the primary relationship is secure, I think. And I think that's the way that it works. Everybody has to be, because I couldn't imagine it,

56:35Davina McCall:if one person was being cajoled into something, that would not be just the worst feeling ever. That's not genuine polyamory. It's not going to work. It's not going to work and it's not genuine polyamory. Okay. What needs to happen to be in love with someone and sustain it? I mean, I know we've slightly covered this. Yeah, but you have to, being in love, what are you talking about? Are you talking about that incredible mix of chemicals and experiences and surprise and wonder, the limerence of the first two years? Are you talking about when that calms down and there's just the two of you and you can mooch around?

57:11what is love? It changes, it develops, it morphs, it moves into your couple according to where your couple is. The zeitgeist of the moment, how do you maintain that? How does love become translated into acceptance and fun and humour? All that intimacy, how do you translate that? How do you keep the relationship going? And it is what we've talked about, this intimacy, this fun. Even holding hands or doing something physical. Yeah. And love, what is love? Love is different for every person. Is it because that person's got your back? Is it because that person's on your team? That's got... Is that love?

57:58What is your definition of love? It's very... It's dependent. Everybody has their own definitions. You can always ask someone, can't you? The key is that you agree on it. Yeah, what do you need? But you agree on it. Yeah, this is, I really love you. You know, you... I really love you too. Oh, so, so.

58:18Davina McCall:Okay, this is a good one. What's the most important thing in a relationship? Friendship, sex or something else? Do you know... I think probably you've got to be mates. I think probably you have to be friends. You've got to like them. Sex won't happen unless you like the person. Exactly. Well, that's not necessarily true. As we said earlier on, that's not necessarily true. Sex can happen and you can absolutely loathe them, but it's not going to last. No. It's not going to last. So I'd say friendship, yes. Yeah. I'd say actually... At the core. Yeah, at the core, having sort of common values, common experiences, enjoying the same things.

58:55Yes, I'd say that, yeah.

58:57Davina McCall:Can you find love after loss? Most definitely. Don't look for the same. Don't think it can be replaced. but you can definitely find love again. It'll be different but you can find it. Just thought I'd let that hang there for a minute because that was lovely. Yeah. And big actually. I think when you've lost someone you love you just think you'll never find that again but you don't want to find that again. No. You will find love. Not that one. Wow. How do I convince my husband, this is a good one, to do marriage guidance counselling? So I believe we need it, but he thinks we don't. I get lots of emails around this.

59:49And I say, OK, so sell it like this. Come in for the initial session. Get him in just to have a chat. He never has to come back again. Yes. But get him in to have a chat and let's see how that goes. And there may be a moment during that chat when actually something changes for him. So just don't think about doing the counselling. Just say, come on, let's go and meet her or let's go and meet him and just see. You'd be amazed how often that works. Really? Yeah, it really does.

1:00:21Davina McCall:How can I better understand and communicate my emotional needs in a relationship without feeling like a burden? Oh. Like that you feel like you're being, oh, it's, you know, I'm being needy. That's it. That's what it feels like. Because if you can't. But you're allowed to be needy. Yes, totally. You're allowed to be needy. But if you can't communicate your needs. Exactly. If that conversation isn't happening between you, then actually, what are you doing? That needs to happen. You are allowed to be needy. Somebody explained it to me brilliantly once. Go on. which was if you're feeling needy, it's because your needs aren't being met.

1:01:03Davina McCall:And I'd always thought of it as like, oh, I'm needy. But actually, when you're with somebody that meets your needs, you're not. You're not. You're not needy. And also that definition of needy really annoys me. Just because somebody shows vulnerability and wants support does not make them needy. Just because somebody is not confident enough, that's not necessarily needy. Perhaps you can, as a couple, you could work together on that so that one does feel a little bit more comfortable in oneself. As we were talking about that, weren't we, about how the couple can develop each other, not just together.

1:01:41Davina McCall:So I'm not sure about that neediness. And I think what's interesting is also if you're worried about feeling needy,

1:01:52Davina McCall:then have they got a problem with needy people and is that a problem they've got yeah is that their problem in that they're not emotionally in touch and can't can't actually think about you or have you in mind the other in mind and their needs that can happen very difficult for some people I really like this one how do you know who the right person is for you.

1:02:22Do you think you know?

1:02:25Davina McCall:I do, yeah.

1:02:29For me... But have you known before? No. You know, did you think you...

1:02:33Davina McCall:I don't think I've ever felt right for anyone. OK. And I feel like... This one is right. I'll tell you why, because I really like myself with this person. you know they just he just brings out the best in you you are personally happy i like myself and comfortable yeah and with yourself yeah yeah rather than being uh rather than trying to please the other you are or or that um or that i bring out things in the other person um that isn't them and they bring out something in me that's not me that i don't like yeah like people don't recognize it people don't recognize that that's happening they don't um they don't they don't know that that that's that's happening i i don't know i'm not i don't know that there is the one yeah i think there might be one no and i think there might be one for a certain decade or two yeah and that might not be the one that's going to see you through to the next to the next phase.

1:03:43So when do you know if you love somebody? You know if... I don't know if it's the one.

1:03:49Davina McCall:I agree. I don't think there is the one and I think that everybody's a bit hung up on finding the one and it's like too much pressure. Yes. Well, it's like you just said after you've lost someone. Yes. Yes, there's someone else for you. There's someone else. They'll be different. Exactly. It won't be the same. Exactly. So I'm not sure that there is the one. There might be one that really, really suits you and go with it and work at it and see you might be lucky it might be the one but i'm not sure you can know that from the beginning yes that's a hard one yes that's very good um and are dating apps no longer working apparently not if so where do you meet good people so really just had that conversation earlier on it's a big one that one i think you know everybody's talking about ai disconnection robot this this this this this but i think that's bringing out something else in people i think that they are wanting to connect yeah yeah i agree so there are communities that are building up everywhere you know have you seen those coffee morning raves and oh my god we were talking about that this morning coffee morning raves where everybody to begin again coffee morning rave exactly i'll invite you you must thank you very much i'll be sure yeah can't wait that's um you You know, there are communities building up everywhere around different things, art, fashion, painting, all sorts of things.

1:05:13And I think that that's more likely now, dog walking. I think it's more likely that people are going to meet them if they've just got to get out and get part of those communities. You know, meetups, walking or whatever it is, chess or whatever. But I think, I do believe there's going to be more of a shift towards that rather than the swiping. I don't know. But I think that's what I'm hearing from definitely under 30s. They are much more able to just align themselves with different communities. And maybe it's a generation thing. Maybe as people, people find that hard when they've got their kids.

1:05:55But, you know, after that, that's what people do when the kids leave. they start joining communities to bring life back to themselves. I think, I hope, I really hope.

1:06:07Davina McCall:So if you are alone and you would like to meet people, go join a group. Anything. Doesn't matter what. Dancing, hiking, like anything. Anything. Art school, ceramics, fashion, sewing, chess. There's so many things going on. You know, there's whatever. Anything. There's so much going on. You can literally find... You can find your tribe anywhere. You can find a tribe. God bless Google. Maybe six tribes. And then you're out there. You are out there. Six tribes. I'm imagining them like a polyamorous relationship. In every tribe, can you imagine? Well. Maybe a bit much, but that's hopefully the way forward.

1:06:53Davina McCall:Karen, thank you. Thank you. This has been absolutely mega. Thank you so much. Big round of applause. Thank you. Thank you. That was so, so, so good. Thank you. You're absolutely great. Thank you so much. So just in case you missed this episode here, if you love this episode, I know you're going to love that.

1:07:20Hey, Mama. Thanks for making all my favourite recipes. Hi, Ma.

1:07:24Davina McCall:Thanks for your unfiltered advice. Hi, Mum. Mom, thanks for always being by the phone. Hey, Mom. Happy Mother's Day. When you ship UPS Air at the UPS Store, your items arrive on time or your money back. Guaranteed at no extra cost. Exclusively at the UPS Store U.S. retail locations. Visit theupsstore.com slash air shipping for full details. Terms and conditions apply. Send your Mother's Day gifts at the UPS Store and we'll get your gratitude there on time.