Richard E. Grant: Richard E. Grant: Losing The Love Of My Life & Growing Up With An Alcoholic.

30:31Oh, what's the story? So, I mean, I feel this is like a conversation. This is quite weird. But anyway, Michael's helped me develop a relationship with my mother, even though she's died. Right. So after her death, we were estranged, but after her death, I said to him once, you would have loved my mum. Yeah. And he said, I've met her. And I said, I don't understand. And he put his hand here and he went. she's in here. Wow. And I was like and then I put my first photograph up of my mother in my house. Never had a picture of my mother up in my house in a frame. And in this picture she's rolling a joint.

31:16Of course. She's got this belt on. She's wearing that belt? Well he found me an exact replica of the belt on eBay in Japan or something. Wow. And I got it for my next birthday. He's a man in touch with everything by the sound of it. He's amazing. So, and I thought, I'm interviewing Richard. I'm going to wear this belt today. I'm honoured. He's going to love it. Is he the boss or you're the boss? We're bosses. You're bosses together? Yeah. I mean I would say I look to him for a lot of things but then he will say I've helped him a lot with things but we look to each other for different things I look to him for advice and feedback Who's the most stable of you two?

32:15I'd say him Okay But he might say me, I don't know, that's interesting Call her.

32:29I don't know where I was with her. I am the boss. Yeah, it's good, isn't it? That was so my mum. How old were you when she died?

32:4041. And you hadn't reconciled? No. I mean, I'd tried for years. It was exhausting. I don't know what it was like for you with your mum, the narcissist but you know you keep going back you do it's it's it's it's um in narcotics anonymous they say that insanity is repeating the same mistake but expecting different results

33:07story of my life it's quite good though isn't it yeah and it was driving me insane i just kept going back to my mum going please will you mother me and then she'd do something and i'd go well I'm like, why do I keep doing this? I've been doing it for 40 years. I've got to stop. So who did you find a surrogate mother in? My stepmom. Oh, your stepmom? She's amazing. And she's still alive? Yeah, I just had the weekend with her. Wow. What about you? Did you get a surrogate? Oh, your teacher? I got, yeah, my teacher, who died when she was 94. Were you still in touch with her then? Oh, for my whole life.

33:41Were you? Yeah, she's my piano teacher, as well as she was Scottish, called Bunny Barnes. Oh, she was Scottish as well? Yeah, and she was my English teacher. And because she did all the music for the amateur plays and musicals that I was in when I was at school at the theater club, she became a mentor and said she was the one person that didn't laugh when I said that I wanted to be a professional actor when I left school. She didn't think that was a ridiculous notion. So having one person believe in you, and then we stayed in touch all the way through until she died. I was doing My Fair Lady, the Sydney Opera Company in 2007, and she died at 94.

34:22So we had from phone call to faxes and then emails. So my relationship, I've got boxes of all our correspondence in a way that I don't have with my mother at all. My mother was somebody who would write almost in telegram form of going, I met Davina McCall today she had long legs scuffed boots the dog has had to go to the vet and the begonias have been hit by the hail mother that was it whereas Bunny was like a full on long yakky conversation did she know that she was filling that role for you? oh yeah completely because when my father tried to shoot me at mist wait that's just such a That is such a brilliant thing to say.

35:13No, when I was 15, I mean, I laugh about it now, as we'll be here. I'd emptied all his Johnny Walker scotch in the scullery, and I thought, well, if I get rid of all of this, somehow that might stop his drinking for at least a week. And as I was halfway through the 11th bottle, you know, a gun at the back of my head, I ducked, went off, ran to the garden, he finally found me. And, you know, he said, I'm going to blow your brains out. I said, you know, go on, do it, just get this over and done with. Did you actually say that? Oh, yeah, yeah, I did. I was so angry at this point. And then he pulled the trigger.

35:44But because he was drunk, it wavered. So it went straight past. And I fell to the ground and then ran away. And I stayed with Bunny Barnes for a couple of weeks, was too frightened to go back home. And she was, she had no judgment on it. She was, she was just amazing. And I remember she said, we're going to take this opportunity to improve your classical music education. She said, I want to introduce you to Puccini. So she put Madame Butterfly on the record player, as it was then. And she said, I'm going to have to face away from you because it's so erotically charged. I don't know whether I'll be able to contain myself.

36:23She said, oh, my God. I should escape my father. And now I might be jumped by my piano teacher. Of course, that never happened. She had to look away from you. That's so brilliant. Yeah, she said, because it's so... So she was, you know, she really took my education in hand, as it were, and gave me sanctuary and a safe place. Also interesting that she didn't judge your father. I think, you know, when you have got an alcoholic parent, but who you do also love, you would defend them to the end of the earth. Like if somebody else said something about them, you can say something about them, but no one else can.

37:03Exactly right. Yeah. And I think it's for people who have not dealt with addiction, they find it very hard to understand. They say, well, why don't you just leave? And I said, well, of course I did when I was finished school. But, you know, you know that the person that they become when they're under the influence is not who they really are. Yeah. And that's the person that you love. you talked about going back to speak to your mother because actually you were estranged for quite a long time oh decades until you were 42 yeah it's a long time isn't it it's a long time but how did that go when you went to go and meet her to try and oh when I finally she wrote me a very long letter after every subterfuge that the psychoanalyst had got me to try to get her to tell her side of the story and she finally did, instead of being a very short letter, she wrote me a very long one explaining what it was like to be a colonial wife in this very hermetically sealed, snobbish, hierarchical, you know, goldfish bowl society and that she had, you know, essentially she'd fallen out of love with my father and in love with his best friend.

38:17So as an adult, you can understand that but as a child you just think, well, I must have done something wrong that I haven't been good enough. So I then wrote the equivalent of what had happened to me, including my father trying to shoot me. And she was so appalled by this because she said, when I was married to your father, he hardly drank. So this alcoholic person that I had talked about, she didn't really recognize. And of course, I realized when he was dying, because he told me that he drank for unrequited love for my mother. She didn't believe any of that. She said, no, I think he's pulling a fast one.

38:54And I said, no, I think when people are dying, the last breath. That probably suits her. Exactly. She needs to believe. Exactly. I said, but the one thing when I finally flew out and met her was that you didn't address was what I witnessed in the backseat of a car in July 1967 when I was 10 years old. And she took this long pause and then just leant forward like this and brayed a kind of animal sound. She said three magic words, please forgive me. And that was extraordinary because in that moment, Of course, that's what you long for as a child or the person that has not taken responsibility for what they've done.

39:32So, of course, she didn't know that I had seen this. So it was amazing. So it completely shifted everything. It didn't change the fact that she was a narcissist because, you know, I think you're born like that. But it was, it changed everything and we started having an ongoing conversation. What did that mean to you, to have that? Oh, everything. I didn't think it was possible that you could have a rapprochement with someone. But what was interesting is that the power balance of it changed. Whereas I had been fearful of her and her disapproval, suddenly it was I was the one who felt that I had more power because she'd asked me to forgive her.

40:19And of course, in that moment, you do. instantly so it's like a what I imagine is like a religious epiphany you think well of course I forgive you because you've taken responsibility for what you've done rather than feeling like somehow you're the one to blame because this is a podcast about beginning again I'm always really keen on those kind of life lessons because I think that in life so many relationships go wrong not just with husbands and wives or partners, husbands and husbands, wives and wives, whatever, but also with friendships over something that had happened, but everybody's too proud to take ownership of their side of it.

41:04And actually, those three words, if my mother had ever said those three words, everything would have been over in a shot. I wouldn't have needed her to be my mother, just the fact that she understood what we'd all gone through. The power of that is so enormous. And you weren't expecting her to suddenly not be a narcissist or be brilliant or be an absolutely fantastic mother. But that was a very powerful moment, I think, and a great lesson for anybody watching that thinks, oh, how can I change it? We've been at each other's throats for years, but actually owning something and then asking for forgiveness is massive.

41:49That's why it's very hard when, and I understand that when somebody dies, that people find it difficult somehow to express or to talk about it. But the people that I had counted on as being friends who dropped away, I should be forgiving, but I'm incapable of doing so because I judge them. And that is probably not a very good thing to do. Just for clarity, we're talking about when Joan died. Yeah. I'd like to talk to you a little bit about that. We're going a bit topsy-turvy, but I don't think that matters. People will be able to keep up with us. You and your kinky boots. Yeah, my boots. I love these boots.

42:34I'm never without a cowboy boot, ever, ever. It's French. It's my French side. Can't not wear a cowboy boot. I've been thinking about the power of community lately, thanks to our favourite creative tool and sponsor, Adobe Express. You might know it as the quick and easy create anything app from Adobe, but it's also a really buzzing creative network. So the other day I couldn't get our Begin Again logo to look how I want it in a doc, so we jumped into the Adobe Express Facebook group, and within minutes the gang in there came to my rescue. And there are thousands of business owners and creators in there, all helping each other out.

43:13And it's not just design advice, and they're not frightening at all. and loads of resources and stories. Honestly, it's amazing. If this podcast has taught me anything, it's that starting a new chapter, you know, whether you're creating a logo for your new business idea or just doing a personal project, you know, obviously it's always going to have its ups and downs, but having the right people around you can really make all the difference. So if you're ready to take on your next big thing, don't be afraid to reach out. It's not as scary as you think. There are loads of helpful people out there and they want to help you along the way.

43:44So search for Adobe Express to find out more and get the app for free. When Joan died, the other thing I think is quite interesting is that the British hatred of the word died. Yes. They say passed away, passed on. I hate it. What? The person died. Yeah, they died. They're dead. It's done. Yeah. Finished. It's not like passed somewhere. Yeah. So I think that's quite interesting. Why do people feel so weird about that? Like, I don't get it. It's an embarrassment. Maybe we're... Yeah, maybe. So I think that's a big thing with the British, that we are embarrassed of death, that somehow it's a bit like talking about cancer.

44:31I mean, you've had a double whammy. Yes. Your wife got cancer. She was sick. Nobody could talk to you about that. And then she died. And nobody's talking to you for years. She didn't want to talk about it. She said to my daughter and I, in the first three weeks when she was diagnosed, in 2021, she said, we cannot tell anybody. And I said, that is an insanity. Because what we have to then go through exactly what I went through with my father of going, no, no, no, he's in the bath. He's just not home yet. No, he's paralytic. So you're having to lie and cover up. And I think that I'm of the absolute conviction that toxic, that secrets are toxic.

45:06They make you sick. They make everything worse. Because then you're leading a triple sort of double life. And that when we, you know, my daughter and I said, it's too heavy a burden to carry on our own. We have to tell people because we can't lie to people and say, well, no, Joan's not here today because, you know, she's just had to lie down. Why do you think she didn't want to tell people? And I understand this. She said she didn't want to be defined by people feeling sorry for her or pitying her or, you know, pitying her. Oh, and I can't work with her now. She was an accent coach for actors because she's got cancer.

45:46She wanted to carry on leading as normal a life as possible. And we said, you know, I quoted at her because I was great friends with Victoria Wood. And when she got diagnosed with cancer the first time, I was included in the people that she told. And then, of course, you can give the person all the love and support that you're able to. And when it recurred, she only told a very small number of people. And I heard about her death on the evening news. And I felt as if I had let her down, that I had not been a good enough friend to tell her. I said to Joan, you know, that feeling of betrayal that I had of just not being good enough for the friendship.

46:30People want to show and want to help you. And she had a complete turnaround. I mean, she didn't speak to my daughter and I for a couple of days. She said, this is outrageous. And we told about 30 people. And the deluge of food that we were sent and flowers and cars and phone calls and visits completely turned her around. And she said, I see the value of this because it's like a living memorial that you have no real sense of how other people feel about you until they know that you're dying. And then they show it. and that was that really lifted her spirits enormously so she saw the value in it I've often thought that's a funny thing isn't it how people I always think you should have the funeral before oh yeah the death because it's at the funeral you go I have no idea you felt like that well a friend of mine who had this clothing company called cabbages and roses she did this a month before she died, she had what she called a funeral party.

47:35And she had 200 people. And she, you know, every single person, she was sitting in a chair, she couldn't really walk easily. Every single person in her life came and told her how much they loved her and how, you know, and was very celebrated. Of course, it was emotionally as raw as can be. But we could tell her to her face what we felt about her. And I thought that was an absolutely genius thing to have done. So telling people and people getting in contact with Joan was all right for her. Joan quite enjoyed that. Oh, quite. She hugely enjoyed it. She was absolutely buoyed up by it. But then in the last six weeks of her life, she said, I've seen everybody and I don't like what the steroids have done to my face and how physically depleted I am.

48:27I don't want to see anybody anymore. But there were, you know, there were friends that said, we don't care about that. We're coming to see you once a week and sit at the end of your bed and to talk. And people are very cognizant of how much, how little energy you have when you're dying. So they would only stay for, you know, 15 or 20 minutes. And I will never forget the people that did that. and equally will never forgive the people that literally fell off the cliff face and didn't come near us. For whatever reason they have, because you can't explain to the person who has died why they didn't turn up.

49:11So I'm contradicting myself with you of being talking about the power of forgiveness. But if somebody, I think, came afterwards and said, I was incapable of speaking to you at the time or come to see Joan, that would be different. But to just disappear is, I can't, I can rationally forgive that, but emotionally I find that absolutely impossible. How are you about that?

49:47yeah I mean I had an interesting my best friend really struggled when I had it when I got a brain tumor really and uh before the op we had dinner um for my birthday and we both had a good cry she she apologized she said I just don't I've I've been a bit lost and I don't know I didn't know how to talk to you about it. And I said, I knew that. Wow. But then that was it. That was done. We were done. She'd said her thing and then we were fine. But she acknowledged it. Yeah. But that's all it takes. It takes so little. Joan was sick in lockdown, right? No, she got sick at the end of, yeah. At the end of COVID.

50:26At the end of COVID. Yeah. It was still... Were there any restrictions on you guys being able to see each other in treatment and no we we couldn't when she got her diagnosis our daughter wasn't allowed to come with us because there were two of us in the room with the oncologist so that was a restriction but no otherwise oh yeah and she she got she got an infection at one point and had to go into the Royal Milestone which is the only time she had to be in the hospital for five days and I wasn't allowed to go into the, I wasn't allowed to go and see her. Well, that's hard. And that was, so we, you know, technology meant that we could FaceTime instead.

51:12But that was, that was very hard. But compared to people that weren't able to be with their partners or their family when they were dying during COVID, we didn't have that. Thank goodness. I think that would be really tough. Were you with her when she died? Yeah. She said to me right at the beginning when she got the diagnosis, whatever you do, Swaz, I want you to let us be together right up until the end. And I said, well, you know, Pai Kars promise I would try my best to do that. But, you know, with the disease, you have no idea whether the person is going to be hospitalized or not. But she had palliative carers who came a couple of times a day for 10 minutes in the morning and the evening in the last two weeks of her life.

52:01And then the Longfield Hospice, who were absolutely extraordinary in Gloucestershire, they sent a nurse to stay with her from 10 o 'clock at night till 6 in the morning so that my daughter and I could sleep. Because of the sleep deprivation that, like a new parent, that is what wipes you out. And you so need to be able to recharge.

52:25And so on the day that she died on the 2nd of September, 2021, I had I was sitting talking to her all day as you can tell I'm not short of a yak and holding her hand and then I felt that at about ten past seven I felt that her hand was starting to get colder and I thought this must be this must be the end and then at 7 30 20 minutes later she died so I was holding her hand and talking to her the whole time. And we'd spoken, you know, she slept most of the afternoon, but, you know, holding hands and sleeping. So essentially a conversation that began in bed in January 1993, then stopped 38 years later on the 21st of, on the 2nd of September 2021, still talking and still holding each other's hands.

53:22So, you know, to have had that with one human being and as you will know from Michael to be completely seen by somebody else I think is the greatest gift that you can have that is the greatest intimacy when you talk about being seen yeah what do you mean that somebody knows everything about you and that you have willingly wanted that person to know about you and you about them and yet she still surprised me she still had stuff that she would come up with people that she'd slept with that she'd reveal and I'd go, she didn't tell me about that one She sounds so great, honestly Yeah, I love that So brilliant Yeah, she was much more contained, closed book about her secrets in her life than I was, whereas mine is like a pane of glass, you just see everything and so it was a good yin and yang of that but that's what I mean to be seen and the trust that you have in another human being that is absolute and complete there's no scintilla of doubt about anything You talked a bit about how on both sides of your family with your mum and your dad about lies or dishonesty and how toxic that is Oh yeah So in your relationship that was really, truth was important?

54:52Yeah, absolutely paramount. I said that, you know, what? If you sleep with somebody else, I will kill you. And she'd said the same thing to me. Yeah, I think that if you can trust somebody completely, she had been, her first marriage, her husband was

55:15repeatedly unfaithful. and so and I think because I'd seen the sort of nuclear detonation of infidelity and the effect that it had on my father it then meant that both Joan and I placed fidelity on probably a much higher altar or pedestal than is probably reasonable so that's a good thing you both felt the same way about it exactly the same way Yeah. We were both astonished that people could have open relationships or open marriages, you know, whatever works for people. But I couldn't imagine that. The idea that you would pledge your allegiance to one person, but you'd have five other people on the side or in the wings.

56:02It's just not in my nature to do that. I think like what is also interesting I was with my dad and my sister when they died and I felt that was a great honour and I'm so pleased for you that you got to be with Joan Yes, and it takes the fear away of death Yes, well tell me about that Because you're with the person and then you hear and feel their last breath and their flesh getting colder in yours. And that it felt, in our situation, incredibly peaceful and a relief and a release that she was no longer having to deal with all this disease. So I think that it was an amazing thing. And she was fearful in the last week.

56:54She said, I really am fearful about what it's going to be. Am I going to just the unknown of it? and I think that, you know, I get that. Being able to talk about that, I think, must have been, with you, must have been really nice. Was that the only time that she really did that or was she quite open about dying? Because she seems like a very honest... Oh, she talked about, we talked about it a lot. Yeah. Yeah. And did you talk to your sister about it? Never. You never did? So was she, so she never expressed... She's such a different person to me, I mean... Was she fearful about dying? I don't know.

57:31I was her little sister. Yeah. I loved her so much. Yeah. I couldn't talk to her about dying. I didn't know she hadn't done a will. I didn't know if she wanted to be craminated. I couldn't talk to her about that. I just, because she couldn't look at, I felt like I couldn't go there. And she was French, fully French. I'm half French. Yeah. She was like, she'd just be like, no. Like, if you just asked to do something, she'd just be like, no. Like, shut up. I think my, I mean, I would like to say one thing. There's one thing that I did that I'm really sad about. She had lung cancer. We've sort of touched on this earlier outside.

58:18She had lung cancer and secondary brain tumors as well. And she was, she smoked with impunity. Right. I mean, I'm amazed she was kept on at her advertising agency job because every time I went to see her, she was already outside having a fag. She loved it. Jet en. Yeah, like, I mean, she literally loved it. But also, she smoked tons of pot. And this was to basically escape what was quite a difficult childhood in Paris with my mum. But, like, she'd go out with a cigarette packet full of joints. 20, like. And when she found out she had lung cancer, we were holding hands and that it was terminal and that it metastasized.

59:07We were holding hands. She looked at me and she went, it's all my fault. I said, Caroline, it's not like that. People that have never smoked get lung cancer. It's not that. We were both in cars nonstop. through our entire childhood with all the windows shut, with everybody smoking except for us. I mean, like, there wasn't... It was just like that, right? Yeah, completely. But that stayed with me, and I went back to her house, and I chucked out every single bit of weed. She didn't smoke cigarettes anymore, but every bit of weed or hash or anything that she had, I threw away. I mean, I was clean, so I wasn't interested in it.

59:46I just chucked it out. Right. and then it still smelt and I found a big lump of hash under her bed. I was like, found it, chucked it out. But then the awful thing was, why did I do that? It was her joy. It was her one joy. She died seven weeks later. I took away the thing that, at least she would have been like out of it and dying. You know what I mean? Like, why did I do that? Because you're a horrible person. I feel like it. No, don't. It was like... Absorb yourself. It felt like such a weird thing. Why would... So I'm curious, even though she wouldn't talk about dying, did she never at any point say, I know that I'm dying or let me go?

1:00:30Never. Because the palette of people and everything I'd read about it said that it is the most common thing that people do when they're dying. They ask to be let go by the family so that you don't try every medical subterfuge to keep them alive. You say, just, I've had it. Just let me go. And my wife did that. So what I'm interested in with you is that did you say to her when she couldn't speak or could she speak? Only she could speak right up till the end. And when she said, two weeks before she died, she said, I know that the end is very near now. She said, please let me go. And my daughter and I said, unequivocally, absolutely yes, of course.

1:01:12You have our blessing. you don't want them to go, but you also know that they don't want for this, that way of life to be extended any further. This is intolerable. It's very interesting those last minutes because I kept just telling my sister that I was going to be okay. Oh, did you? I knew she was worried about that. Like, don't worry about me. I'm going to be okay. Like you can, because she looked after me so much emotionally. So when you said that to her, what was her reply? There wasn't one because she was kind of put to sleep. Oh, she couldn't talk anymore? No. But I think they said she can still hear.

1:01:54Yeah, apparently hearing is the last sense or whatever to go. Because Joan said to my daughter and I four days before she died, I know that you're going to be sad, but try and find a pocket full of happiness in each day, which was a brilliant mantra to bitch to live by. Well, you wrote your book. Yeah, called that. A pocket full of happiness. So tell me, what did she mean by that? She, I think more than anything, she said, I know that you will be sad, but every single one of us, including you two, are going to die. So without saying it, what is built into that little phrase is don't have any guilt about feeling joy or happiness after I'm gone.

1:02:38and that has been an amazing thing not to feel guilt of thinking my goodness this Christmas pudding tastes fantastic oh but Joan's not here no but it still tastes fantastic yeah to she gifted you yeah to really embrace what you have and not oh you've got to walk around in a quagmire of grief for the rest of your life I think that's really good does that speak to the kind of person that she was yeah Yeah, she's very pragmatic and also philosophical about that you've got to enjoy yourself. Otherwise, what are you going to be walking around in widow's weeds, widow's weeds for the rest of your breathing days?

1:03:23That's not good either. But how were you after she died?

1:03:33you think you feel that you're never going to be able to fully breathe again because it's so you know it's like an anvil being stuck on your chest and that you're not going to be able to walk or I think more than anything I felt like a crab or a tortoise or a turtle that you're shell has been taken off, that you're so vulnerable that you can be just squashed by anything. And you can't imagine that your life can ever normalize again. And people always say, you know, time will heal or time will tell or all these cliches that come out with. So it's a sort of day-by-day adjustment. I don't, you know, four years on from her death, I don't wake up and think, oh, Joan's dead today, which I had done for so long.

1:04:29And the wonderful trick of memory is that, I don't know whether you've had this, but I've experienced in the last six months a recalibration of it that when I remember her now, I remember her in full health. I don't remember her when she was, what she looked like and was like when she was ill. And if I look at photographs again of it, I'm really taken aback of how altered somebody is by disease. Have you had that experience with your sister? I definitely just think of my sister in root health. In root health, yeah. In completely normal, yeah. And how long did it take for you to have that? About probably five years, I would say.

1:05:12Yeah. And do you feel guilt at all about the fact that you're living and she's not? No. No. I never have. Good.

1:05:45Weren't we lucky? Really lucky. Really, really lucky. it's interesting you were talking about people who found it hard after they died and how they kind of avoided you

1:06:03I found that really hard to hear I felt like I was quite lucky in a way I guess maybe my my sister's friends were like contemporaries but your friends were contemporaries of yours they were your friends and hers yeah I thought they were friends. I mean if people are watching and they're losing someone, a friend or something, what's like these are the things you must do to support your friend that's going or the partner of the friend that's going? Because what could you have done with? Talk to the person or just you know even if you don't know how to say it. If you hug somebody or you just squeeze their shoulder or you do that and that person knows that you're acknowledging it I think that that is so simple and so profound but crossing the road or...

1:07:00Have you actually had that? Oh yeah. Wow. I guess we had this house in the south of France that we had for 35 years that we spent every summer there and there was a Swedish couple that we'd known. They'd been at every party at our house every summer we'd been to their house and as I walked towards them in the market I was sorting out my sale of my house I was about to go bonjour and both of them simultaneously went like that I felt like I'd been slapped and punished for the fact that my wife had died so for whatever reason I've never seen them since I never will but that was an extraordinary thing.

1:07:43And the other thing that I know that I have done, answered your question, is that when somebody is dying or ill or in trouble, you instinctively phone them or message them and say, let me know if there's something I can do for you. And what I realize is that you've put all the responsibility onto the person that is suffering it. I've done that. Yeah, I've done it. Yeah. And then you think, oh, well, if they haven't called me, they obviously want to be left alone. Whereas people who have gone through it, like you have and I have, and certainly a great friend of ours, Nigella Lawson, who had had so much loss in her family, she sent food around in a taxi every Sunday afternoon that would last for two or three days, which meant that I didn't have to cook or shop for that time so I could be completely with Joan the whole time.

1:08:37And that act of friendship was practical and loving at the same time. And I will never forget that. So now when I never say, let me know if there's something I can do, you just show up. Even if you ring on the doorbell and they don't want to come to the door or somebody comes to the door and said, this is not a good time, or you can have five minutes, that is better than saying, let me know if there's something I can do and you sort of push the responsibility onto the other person just do it like the Nike advert says that's what I would say what would you say the key learnings from your if you were to do you know how um there's 12 steps in the NA program yeah I think even Jordan Peterson did 12 Rules for Life.

1:09:28Like, I mean, watching you and seeing you on Instagram, you take so much learning from everything that you go through. Can you give me your, like, top five learnings of your life?

1:09:43There can never be enough kindness.

1:09:48And, you know, just a simple thing of being polite to somebody or saying thank you. The amount of times that, you know, somebody writes you a card or has done something for you and you just thank them. That is, it sounds so simple and banal, but I think that that goes a hugely long way. And every message that I've received, and even from total strangers on social media, acknowledging it with, you know, I think you press it, and a heart or something comes up that you acknowledge that you've seen the thing. Because everybody wants to be seen and wants to be heard. So if somebody has extended that out to you, I think that to me is worth more than any amount of money.

1:10:43Because at the end of your life, it's not the achievements that you've done or the money that you've made or the awards that you might have aspired to or have even received or got hold of. It's the relationship that you have with people that you care for. And I think that's the only thing that is really sustaining and that I found incredibly helpful. That answered your question. Yes. When you and Joan got together, you weren't interested in getting married either of you? No because I'd seen this nuclear fallout with my parents divorce which was so acrimonious I thought well that's what you just don't go near that and certainly don't have a child put a child through that so and because she had got divorced she felt the same that you know whatever you do don't jinx it by getting married and of course the problem is with that is that you fall in love with somebody.

1:11:49And I'd never had that before. So she was the first woman you fell in love with. Yeah, really. I mean, I thought I'd been in love with it because, you know, you're infatuated. I lived with people and had partners. But really falling in love with somebody is, that warped me, yeah. And she said the same thing. I said, yeah, but you were married. And she said, yeah, but she said, the way that I fall in love with you is different. And I said, yeah, that sounds like a Mills and Boone tagline on a romantic novel. She said, no, no, it's absolutely true. I mean, I think the interesting part of that is that it's that being seen and being understood on the deepest of levels.

1:12:39Yeah. with you and Joan it's hard then to imagine you I mean I'm not talking about you I shouldn't really judge you you can do whatever you like Richard I know that you know that um but but I'd like to discuss whether you think you would ever go out with anybody again what how do you feel about that um I've been on sort of dates with people and I've been set up with people I was just going to say do you get set up all the time I have been I realized in retrospect being sort of set up but I think that when you are ready to do that something will happen but it depends on what you're looking for I'm not I don't think on a daily basis I've got to go on a dating app I haven't done anything like that so I mean it would be a bit difficult for you to go on a dating at wouldn't it so i richard he got old pensioner looking for a dining companion amazing yeah no i get i get um i've had messages on social media saying we have everything in common and we should meet oh god did i did i sound like that when i when you walked through the door i was going richard you're not gonna believe it you did so you know i think it's yeah i don't know but i I can't, I think the chances of meeting somebody again and feeling that or experiencing that is, I don't know how many times you can, that can happen in your life.

1:14:17So I have no expectation of it, put it that way. But if in a year's time you see me in St. Paul's getting married to,

1:14:34the princess of Transylvania than quote this back at me and say, you're a bit of a traitor. Nothing would make me happier. You said that you were with somebody for 38 years and now you've found somebody else. You don't see that as being a traitor there, do you? Or do you? No, I don't think so. But maybe other people do.

1:14:58People judge you all the time. Are you judgmental as a person? No. I mean, I can't be right. No one's fucked up more than I have. Like, I would. That would be really, really bad. Ladies and gentlemen.

1:15:19But did you think that you were going to, when you fell in love with Michael, Did you anticipate that that might happen? Did you ever fantasize that that might happen? What? That you would fall in love with him? Oh, when we first met? Yeah. No. I mean, I was about to marry my husband. And my life was on that trajectory. He was about to marry his wife. We both went off with our partners and had children. We'd work together four days a week. We'd talk all the time. In touching the hair. Yeah, it's just really funny. Like, I just didn't look at him with those glasses at all. So what changed it?

1:16:03I don't... You don't remember the moment that it happened? It was magic. But once I'd put on different glasses, I couldn't take them off again. Like, I was working with him four or five days a week. We told each other everything. I mean, this is one of the things that I really, really enjoyed talking to you about is the honesty, is that we're just brutally honest with each other. Yeah. We'll just say everything. That's the greatest intimacy you can have with somebody, don't you think? Because the amount of times you have sex with somebody in a day is proportionately, unless you're doing a tantric seven-hour job, and even seven hours, if you're doing seven hours a day, it's still not the majority of your day that you are speaking to somebody.

1:16:51Yeah. And connecting with them. And I think trust, my dad always said, I mean, Paul Brunson does a relationship podcast with Flight Studios. And I feel a little bit like I'm treading on his toes here. I'm going to try and, but this is from my dad, the guy out there in the red trousers. He used to say to me, love is made of four things. Friendship. You had that. Yeah. Obviously in a mega way. Trust. it was like, if you do anything, I'll kill you. I like that kind of trust, brilliant. Carnal love, really important.

1:17:34And respect. Yeah. Respect is so important because without respect, you lose the carnal side, I think. You know, if one of them goes, then something else struggles. and I feel all those feels for Michael. I think what's interesting with modern day relationships and I'd be quite interested in getting your take on this is that everybody's looking for a soul mate. This has got to be the perfect person. But how do they get what you had? Because that is so rare. when you're in it you don't it doesn't seem that it's it seems well why isn't this doesn't everybody feel this yes so what what is different about it because you talking about talking we've talked non-stop for 38 we talked non-stop for 38 years yeah and I was still talking as I held her hand yeah and she she died yeah what is the magic ingredient to a great relationship in your opinion Curiosity.

1:18:46That you never stop finding or stuff to talk about or things to do or things to want to do with a person in every way. I think that's because as soon as you take stuff for granted, then I think that leads to boredom or this again. the depth of feeling and the trust that you have with somebody after that amount of time um i think that in itself is sexy part of the heat of your sex life so true don't you think rather than thinking oh is it the same old position the same old you know what i mean but i think the same old position is with somebody that you don't talk to about let's try something else or why don't we yeah but still fancying the person that you're with yes that is something that you have no control over.

1:19:41It's something that if you're lucky enough to have it, which we did, then that's very sustaining. I also think physical attractiveness to somebody in a relationship that you're in with is often also about the other person making an effort. So when I see my partner make an effort, it makes you some again feel seen yes I think yeah by them making an effort with what they wear you think oh they they want me to see them yeah do you know what I mean yeah tell me about because how did you work after after Jonah died because I just think going back to work would be very difficult well because my job is I'm on location filming for so much I'm so used to being on my own or away from home, that that was very familiar.

1:20:41And that the most difficult part, as always, as I'm sure you know, is what I call the steering wheel stuff. That at the end of the day, downloading everything. And what was Davina like? What is her hair color? Do you think she dyes her hair? How much facial surgery has she had? I love that. What were her boots like? How long did it take you to get to the East End? Four years. All of that stuff that you just talk about during the day or your observation of it, not being able to tell the other person anymore, I found, I thought, wow, this is like a sort of grand canyon of, you know, it's a bottomless hole.

1:21:20And in exactly the same way that I started keeping a diary when I was 10 and have continued to do so, I then, I now write to Joan every night. and I have no woolly spiritual delusion that she's hearing this or that I'm going to get a response but I know in writing to her it somehow makes it keeps the connection going because I know what her response would be Do you write Dear Joan? Yeah So I write emails to her I write in email form in a diary but Dear Joan and today that this happened this would really have amused you. I think we should do this. So it's somehow, it makes it feel like that person is still there.

1:22:08It's an ongoing conversation. Sorry, I interrupted you. No, don't. Do you not feel that she's still there? No. She's gone? Yeah. I mean, she's inside me and in my daughter and in the memory of our friends, and I've got photographs of her around the house, but I don't, my father was unequivocal about saying that heaven and hell are human concepts and everything is the here and now. We only have one life. Nobody's come back. And I haven't been able to find a better theory than that. So I take great comfort from the fact that it is, her life has been completed in the same way that all the other people that I know and have never come back.

1:22:53So I have no... I'd like to have had faith that somehow when you die, I'm going to see all the pets and the people that I've loved in some other space. But I don't have any delusion that that is going to take place. And I find that reassuring. So are you reassured now about the end of your life? Yeah, yeah. and she said to me would I bury her ashes underneath a cherry tree that we've got in this cottage in Gloucestershire and that's the one thing that I have not been able to do I've still got her ashes in the box that they came in they're your sisters sister I can't bring myself to do that and you know I know that people said well that's her last wish but it might not be her actual ashes I said that doesn't really matter it's just that is the last thing that I have of her physically and I just can't bring myself to do that because I think well if I sell this house or there's a rainstorm in the mud illogical stuff so I think just better to keep this in the box I don't think it's illogical at all well she asked that they be buried in the garden I do understand you saying if there's rain or like if we sell then she's left there but that's that's not practical it's just an emotional thing still stopping you from doing that sentimental old fool dot com Richard Davina what are you doing next I am going to see a screening in an hour's time of a film that I have to do the post-syncing on.

1:24:48What does that mean? That if there are sound problems on something and you get these bleeps that come across the screen and you have to match exactly what you've said to the dialogue that you've pre-recorded because a plane went over or they've edited it and taken one word out here, so you've got to do that. What's the film called? It's called Death of a Unicorn with Paul Rudd and Jenna Ortega. And I'm sure you're asking me in the long term what I'll be doing. Do I have another job? But this is what I'm doing today. Yeah, great. But when is it out? It comes out in April. Great. I love movies. I love unicorns.

1:25:34Then you'll go and see this one. That's because they do exist. talking about that yes i just quickly want to ask you pocket full of happiness yes where are you going to find that today i've already found it great so i was really hoping you were going to say that i was like please please let me be richard's pocket full of happiness for the day you are not you are you are you are i want to be teacher's pet or anything but it you know it's nice you are i'm very happy cheers cheers and you don't drink either that's another commonality that we have. Yeah, well, I basically am. I mean, if I did, I'd be streaking around here.

1:26:10So, you know, it would be a disaster. They'd all think it was very funny. So would I. But it would be a disaster for my career. Yeah, would be. Yeah. That's what my mum used to do. She used to walk around and flash people. And I'd look and she'd be naked underneath her coat. Put the minge away. Put it away, mother. Yes. Thank you. I mean, I knew this was going to be lovely, but I wasn't expecting it to be this lovely. so thank you so so much thank you for being so prepared and informed about my gubbins it was a joy learning about you thank you and you Richard was everything I knew he would be and more really um I mean that really just felt like a very open and warm and fun and deep and moving, chat with a friend.

1:27:05I loved what he had to say about living, about death, about loving someone and losing them, about can you start again. Richard was a joy, obviously, and it's hard to pick out certain things that he talked about because everything that he talked about was perfect. But I think this idea of what being seen means to people and when you find somebody that sees you, how special that feels. Also, I really loved hearing about his childhood. I'd never heard about that before. How many things we had in common, that was quite weird. but also handling losing someone you love

1:28:04he talks so brilliantly and eloquently around that and it's really nice to meet someone who is not embarrassed or ashamed of their feelings yeah, I hope you enjoyed it

1:28:29Thank you.