Ruby Wax on Interviewing The World's Most Dangerous Men & Grieving Alan Rickman

22:12Davina McCall:But I'd never, like, you were talking about dry vaginas, testosterone implants. Like, I was like, oh, my God, you guys were talking about it so early, doors. And nobody was talking about it. But we talked about everything, and you can, in quotes, comedy. But people think it's comedy, so it's not the conversation. Not fully true, yeah. Comedy is the most intelligent way of communicating, but it's still taken as something lightweight. It's the serious thing and then you twist it into comedy. But I didn't realize we were, of course we were. It was a menopause workshop. It was really funny. I mean, looking back now, what we know now and how little anybody knew then.

22:56Davina McCall:Yeah. I didn't realize. Yeah. And guess what? Years later, I was asked around that time, and I was young, as to be the face of vaginal dryness. Did you know that? And they said, we can offer you 3 ,000 to 5 ,000 pounds. And I wrote back and I said, please, just three. It's the honor of doing it. And I said, but I demand when I go on radio shows, I have sandpaper that I use before I enter. They realized I was taking the fizz. But Jenny A. Claire ended up doing it. I think we'd have to look into that. the face of vaginal dryness yeah yeah wow it's so funny how often my pr guy like who organizes press and everything it was a joke before i got menopausal it was the big joke of like try not to say the word vagina i just like it almost in every interview i did i would somewhere drop the word vagina in and he'd be like oh my god she's done it again god and then the bigger bigger joke was when I started working in the menopause sphere and it became totally normal for me to use the word not only vagina but with dry before it, even better.

24:06Davina McCall:Yeah. Well, that makes it funny. And he was like, oh, God. Not funny. But it is funny, you know. It is what happens. Until you have it. And we all just have to kind of get on with it. But the other thing I couldn't believe was that you guys were talking about testosterone and I only found out about that a few years ago that testosterone levels go down in women, and you were talking about it in that sketch, that obviously women were taking it then, but it wasn't licensed, I don't think. Or maybe it was licensed. No, we were so in the dark ages. Yeah, it was amazing. And for depression, I take it.

24:42Yeah, but I have like a beard on my stomach.

24:45Davina McCall:Yeah, so do you rub it on your stomach? Well, now I do it on my legs. Yeah. Because I had to shave my stomach. Yeah, it's like you've got to change it around sometimes. Yeah. Do you take it? Oh, yeah. I mean, I take, I was on too much at the beginning. Uh-oh. So you were guerrilla-like? Well, I was just like frisky. Like it was horrific. I felt like I knew what it felt like to be a young man. Really? So when I was just like looking over there thinking and my mind went like blank like a computer does, my screensaver was sex. Right. When my mind went blank, the screensaver that came up was shagging.

25:26Davina McCall:Wow. And then when you cut it down, it stopped? Yes, that did. Like it wasn't a non-stop. But I was, I'd had, after four months, I had a blood test and they said, okay, this is too much for you. We're going to halve it. And that was much better. I don't want to, I actually didn't like how it felt. It was too much. Right. but even with half I feel the benefits of it which is being more on it I can't quite explain it but being more able to walk into a room like I used to and go I know what I'm doing this is the meeting do you know what I mean yeah yeah well I can't tell because I've been on things so long how long have you been on testosterone oh um I can't tell because I took it for depression yes I didn't take it for the regular menopause.

26:19No. Yeah, maybe 30 years.

26:21Davina McCall:This episode is brought to you by Airbnb. I am desperate to get to Greece. Can you blame me? I'm in Greek salad, ocean swims, maybe a donkey or two. Michael and I want to take the whole blended family on holiday this summer. And when I told my team, they all started laughing because Sally, one of the brilliant people I work with, is also desperately keen to go to Greece. Get this, she's going to host her home in London on Airbnb while she's off holidaying and staying at an Airbnb in Greece. How's that for strategic? So Sally's hosted before and she said to me that it is just a really totally easy way of earning some extra money on the side.

27:00Davina McCall:Especially when her home's just sitting empty when she's on holiday. So all she has to do is make her place available for the dates that suit her and off they go. The money that they make from hosting gets put into a pot for their next trip. So have you ever thought about hosting on Airbnb? I'll not give it a go. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much it's worth at airbnb.co.uk slash host. Our sponsors, Paramount Plus, have sent me a peek at their new original series, The Madison. Press play, Jeremy. I'm so excited. Go. You know, at night... Look at the scenery. ...the bull elk come down to the river and bugle.

27:45Davina McCall:And it drives the lady elk. Oh, my God! Already, stop! Kurt Russell. Still got it.

27:54Davina McCall:Michelle Pfeiffer looks epic. She looks so good. The worry is what you do next. I know you are hurting me. Wait, stop. I'm going to cry a lot, aren't I? I think it's going to be one of those ones. I'm going to be howling. I have a very small window to feed this Yes, that's how I feel Yes, Michelle!

28:20Davina McCall:You know one of those dramas where you just go, yes! At the television, it's going to be that I can tell already If you like Begin Again, you're going to like this Because there are life stories that we will all recognise And be able to relate to I'm scrapping all my plans for tonight. I'm going to watch this non-stop because The Madison is streaming right now on Paramount+. Get on it. Can I ask you about your depression? So how did that manifest itself or how did you realise that you had it at first? I think for people watching, like there might be quite a few people who have symptoms but aren't entirely sure.

29:01Davina McCall:Or if it's just... It's when those normal little voices, you know, that say you're an idiot, she doesn't really like you. You know, the normal. Everybody has a track record going through them of negative usually. And I know why. I mean, that's why I studied the brain, because I wanted to feel better about myself and realize this isn't everybody. And why? You know, evolutionary-wise, there's a reason for most things. But our brains aren't equipped to deal with now. They're equipped to deal with back then. So instead of just the usual, you know, but I've learned how to deal with them. Not that they go away.

29:37It's more like a scar that's fading. It becomes 100 ,000 of those voices that are coming so, that are just as if you're in jail and somebody's screaming at you or you're in hell more. Like I always say, if the devil had Tourette's, that's what it would sound like. It's just screaming so that you're limp now and helpless. If you lift your hand, the voices are saying, you idiot, you lifted your hand, you idiot, you stupid idiot. Do you think you're lifting your hand for a reason? It's just screaming in a man's voice. And then eventually it's so loud and your head feels like it's being filled with petrol, which is the cortisol.

30:17I can actually feel it. And then it's dead. There's nothing. It's like in the beginning of that Beatle album where it goes, doom, doom, doom, doom, doom, doom, doom, that noise. It's white noise now, and you're unable to move. And everything gets really slow. And you try to pretend you are still who you are if somebody comes over and visits, but they can't tell you're imitating who you are. You're doing a rough approximation. And then they leave the room and you're gone. So people think it's sad or people think it's mourning. You're dead. You might as well be dead. and people say, in my show, I always have the second half question and answer.

31:00And I've had people with cancer and depression stand up, quite a few. And I always say, which is worse? They always say the depression because you get no sympathy. If you could wear a headscarf for depression, well, we still might not get it because they think it's your imagination. But it's as black and white as somebody, Luce Wilport said, what thoughts are to a depression, A tumor is to cancer. Your thoughts are sick. Yes, okay. Yeah.

31:29Davina McCall:Have you ever said that you're bipolar? I'm not bipolar. You're not? No. I know it says that people say, are you bipolar? No, I read somewhere, but I wanted to ask you if you ever thought you were because I... No, I've never gone. I've never set my hair on fire. But you have depression? Yeah. Yeah. It just goes down. The elevator just goes down. How often does it come? Well, I thought it was coming a few days ago. So I have this thing called RTMS, which is repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation. It used to be ECT where they shot electrodes into. Now it's magnets, so it's not harmful. It goes, it looks like a 50s hairdryer.

32:09It kind of bangs against your head, but it's not too painful. And it's to recalibrate the neurons. If they got stuck, it makes them dance again.

32:18Davina McCall:Oh, my God, that's amazing. And I took 20 sessions in a row the last time I really had it. and I could feel the sun coming out. Wow. You know when you're well. It's not like, you think this is well or not? And it's slow. It builds. Yeah. So you can't tell. Yes. But then suddenly the sun is out. Yes. And you go, okay, I'm normal again. And when you go into it, it's so slow that you think, oh, I see, this is what aging is like. And you think, has somebody possessed me? But you can't talk to anybody. But you notice it coming now. I notice it coming. Yeah. And you can prevent it getting too far because you can stop it?

32:55Davina McCall:A couple times, but it may catch me by surprise. I mean, it is a beast. And like in a year, how often would you get down? Oh, I could go. I used to go five years. Oh, okay. So you really thought it was your imagination. Now it's a little more often. Why is that? I don't know. Your body gets weaker. I mean, it scares me because it's around the corner. But when I'm me, I'm me. You know, people say on stage, how are you? And I go, you think I'd be sitting here? But if you have depression, you better get on antidepressants because it's all we've got. And then they say it'll be mushrooms. Well, the thing about mushrooms is if you're on SSRIs, you can't take them.

33:39So what was the point of that?

33:41Davina McCall:So you'd have to come off the SSRIs to take mushrooms? Yeah, and I tried to in my last book and I ended up in a mental ward. Really? Yeah. I was doing in the last book I was trying to find meaning so it was a little tongue-in-cheek I did these extreme things but I ended up in a mental ward and it looked like I was criticizing those things whereas they're life changing but if you come off your medication you're back to square one and how long can people stay on SSRIs for well I've been on it over 30 years okay yeah I don't know if I'll ever get off unless they improve those mushrooms. Yeah. I mean, that is quite interesting, the old psilocybin therapy that people have had profound changes in their life from doing therapy where they are with a psychologist in a room and they go on a guided.

34:33Yeah.

34:34Davina McCall:But this idea of coming off the SSRIs for someone like you has been on it for 30 years, that's pretty scary right I don't know withdrawals from an SSRI well your brain can't take it you know I'm me without those is somebody really you know and my dad's side my mom's side was nuts my dad's side we're supposed to be having fun his suicides so I come from a legacy that's really dangerous so that's why I married my husband because he doesn't have it I checked the ad Yeah, I checked it. So my kids don't have it. That's a miracle. So before you had kids, you made sure that Ed had no family. I checked it.

35:14The only reason I married him was because he was clear. I didn't really like him that much.

35:19Davina McCall:He's quite a nice guy, though. Yeah, and he had length. He had length. Yes, Ruby! I don't really know if I wanted to know that about Ed. No, he's tall. He's tall. Oh, he's tall. Sorry, I thought you were talking about his penis. No, no. I was like, I don't know if I'll ever be able to look at him again. I'm quite a lady. I wouldn't say that. No, he had long legs. And so my children have long legs. Where did my mind go, Ruby? You went where it went. I went. I think lower the testosterone. Lower the testosterone again. It's still on too high. It's too high. It's too high. Oh, God. I'm so embarrassed.

35:56Davina McCall:Okay.

35:59Davina McCall:Yes, okay. So where were we? So you and Ed are quite the thing because I read, and I feel like this about me and Michael, we spend a lot of time together and we're absolutely nuts about each other, but spending time apart is really good. I'm mostly apart now. It makes me miss him. I'm always apart now. You know, we are really good friends. Live quite separate lives. Yeah, separate lives. Because you grow, you get different interests. Yeah. How much the chances of keeping the same interests? So I went down into below the radar with meditation, and he's in the world of television, whereas television is my allergy.

36:40Davina McCall:Yes. Yeah. It's my allergy. If I get near that, the cortisol starts filling up. It was interesting because television was your savior. Yeah. And now it's something else. What happened? I think you mature. Yeah. Your brain gets wiser, like I'm lucky. There's an expression that says at a certain point you can turn into wine or vinegar after about 50. Oh, I love that. Yeah, it's good, isn't it? And so I really got interested in meditation, mindfulness. And I think that means you're really interested in digging down. And that's really my interest. I don't want to have – I don't do small talk. I mean, you know, I'll be funny, you know, especially if I know that's called for.

37:23but my real interest is when you speak below the radar.

37:28Davina McCall:Yes. Yeah. And this podcast is called Begin Again and I'm always thinking about how can people change something in their life that will enable them to, on their deathbed, go, I really fucking had a go. Yeah, I tried. I did everything I wanted to try. Exactly. I tried. But you did. I mean, you are. You're doing. Well, I did. I did. I mean, yeah, I was kicked out of TV, more or less. I could have kicked my way back in. So what do you mean by that? Well, after Ruby Meets. Yeah, I was doing like, there was a great show, Boys with Toys, where we raced to Russia. So that was my last show. I wouldn't say that was a dud.

38:12And then Alan Yentob, who's dead, took over my slot. Well, my Sunday night slot. I can't fight that. No. And they said, oh, your shows don't sell anymore. Yeah, bullshit. But the point is I'm really grateful because that means you have to find another career. Yes. And boy, did I try a few things in my little skirt. I went around trying to sell bags that I designed, you know, the ultimate bag woman. I tried everything. I tried to be a coach because I knew coaches made$500 instead of shrink. And I had got my degree in being a shrink. Can we just talk about that? Just tell us what degree you got.

38:49I got a degree in psychotherapy. Yeah. And I had to do, from Regents, I had to do 400 hours. I did 200. Yeah. So good. I did 200.

39:01Davina McCall:So good. Well, it was interesting. Really to be proud of that. What an achievement. And how old were you at this point when you did your degree? You become a shrink when you're about a good one. Yeah. Late 40s. Yeah. You were late 40s. No, I was in my 50s. Yeah. Yeah. But it starts then. Around menopause, people start getting interested in therapy, the wild shores of menopause. Suddenly they're interested in somebody else's mind because theirs has taken a holiday. How was the menopause for you? I thought I was, well, I took that medication, the squirting stuff. I always do things early because I don't want to, like childbirth, I just didn't, I said, cut me open.

39:45I don't want to have one contraction. I had one that was enough. So with menopause, I started using that stuff when I was suspicious. So I never really had it. God help me when I get off it. Are you ever going to get off it? I don't know. They said you can only do it till 55. Well, 800 years later.

40:03Davina McCall:You can do it for as long as you want. Yeah. So that my bones are really good. Yeah. And your brain. My brain is good. Yeah. I'm not saying that if you don't do it, it won't be. No. Because I don't know. It's not my brain. They're only different. Yeah. I would love to delve in a little bit into you and Alan Rickman. Oh, yeah. Greatest pairing ever. How did that happen? I saw him in Edinburgh and I was so overexcited. But I'm sexually really backward because my dad was weird about it. About sex? Yeah, about the whole thing. Did he shame you about it? Yeah, really badly and kind of suggested things.

40:43What do you mean by that? Well, kind of mentioned how juicy I looked at a certain point. Oh, God. Creepy. It made me sleep in bed with him. Oh. He didn't do anything, I don't think, unless I have a false, go on Oprah and have a false, but it was weird. You know, they always were. Unhealthy. Unhealthy. So I'm really moronic with men. I never came on to them, and so they didn't come on to me. It was kind of late in the day, and I was married to two homosexuals.

41:11Davina McCall:Yes, so you married two men who... Well, they were for work permits. Right. But one of them I really tried, but you know, we had the same taste in genitalia I found out, because I found all this male porn under the... Anyway. Oh, that's tough as well. It's tough for you. And I loved him. But, and I was safe. I wasn't safe with heterosexuals. So at the RSC, I met Rickman and I, well, first I met him not at the RSC and I swore I'd be best friends with this guy. Like I did that with Carrie Fisher too. There's a moment where I'm driven. Wait. Sorry, you were best friends with Carrie Fisher? Yeah, for 35 years.

41:51Shut the front door. I didn't know that. Yeah, well, there you go. She didn't research that one.

42:01Yeah, she was my best friend. Oh. Yeah.

42:06Davina McCall:That's mega. She was a mega woman. She was a mega. What a... Wow, you two together? Oh, it was a great... And we were going to be all lesbians together. We had our house designed. We had rocking chairs. We were holding shotguns. Amazing. In case anybody came near us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We were angry. That's a film. That's a film. Yeah, but we used to sleep together in bed. Yeah, brilliant. I mean, we loved each other. Oh! Unless she was two-timing me, maybe she had another best friend. No, no, no. But I interviewed her, and in the show that I'm going to do, you see the moment where we fall in love.

42:43There's a moment where she clicks and says, let's go shopping, and everything in my body switched on. Like, I tap dance mentally. So same for Rickman. I saw him and I said, that one's mine. He wasn't famous. Then we both got into the World Shakespeare Company. I played some seawater and he played Jaquies. But then I did get jobs as wenches. I was a great wench. so there's wenches in As You Like It and in Love's Labour's Lost anywhere there's a wench I was a wench

43:10Davina McCall:He absolutely loved you as well He loved me He just thought you were amazing Well he said write the way you talk so he made me write and he just and then he'd do it for me and he's much funnier than I am so he trained me for 35 years How amazing And now I'm bereft I have no replacement I have no he was my like everything Have you ever done that for someone else? I was never that clever. He was clever. No, I mean, who would I take under my wing? My children won't take any notes from me. I tell them if they don't need to. They are hilarious. Really? Yeah, your girls are so funny. Yeah, but in a different way.

43:52Yeah, but this is what's so lovely.

43:54Davina McCall:They've got their own flavour. I'll say siblings. Yeah, siblings. Siblings. Siblings. Ruby's daughters. Siblings. are amazing. They've got a comedy duo called Siblings. Thank you. I've said it. And they are absolutely hilarious. Like carnage, chaotic. Chaotic. And different from you, but there is the same sort of rebelliousness. Yeah, they tear up the theatre. Yeah, they tear up the rule book. But they do, they're English, they speak English. And then they do characters, which I could never do because I don't have a good ear, clearly because I'm still talking like this. But you do do some characters.

44:29Davina McCall:Oh, in my show, but they're so grotesque. Yeah. Yeah. They're funny. I do the English. Yeah, they're very good. Thank you. Yes, pleasure. Okay, guys, I need you in my Begin Again gang. Listen, it's the most funnest, most awesome club in the whole world, and I want you to be part of it. So when you sign up to our newsletter, you get all the bits that I don't share anywhere else. things that I'm loving what I'm reading my favourite outfits some of the most gorgeous begin again stories that you've sent in I actually really love reading those it's one of my favourite parts of the week and the really fun bit is I will also share some begin again secrets like what guests we've got coming up and you'll know before anyone else does shh don't tell everyone so come and join the best gang ever The link's right below and it just takes five seconds and it's free.

45:29Davina McCall:Oh, I've got something to show you actually. We printed this out. Oh my God. Do you remember that? Yes. Here, look, have a look. Movie wax for me, definitive and irrepressible Jaquanetta. Never simply a bit of routine peasantry. How good is that? Yep. I'm keeping that That's getting really Yeah take it Stratford Actress Definitive Well that's Where's my picture There's no picture See It's never good enough Alright I'm keeping this But isn't that great Yeah I was a good wench Yeah Yeah And I had I look good in a In a corset Yeah Those breasts were Yeah Perky Working it Working it But then after a while You were like, I want to try something else.

46:24Davina McCall:How did you get to become Ruby Wax? How did that happen? It was easier in those days because I think they put me with French and Saunders. And then I was supposed to write for them. But we came up with Girls on Top because they had the young ones. And we thought, well, we'll do the female version. So we wrote for two years laughing like maniacs and just eating all the time. Never thought it would go on TV. And then there it was. And my husband directed it. And I was late in the day. I had two eggs left. So I said, would you please fertilize me? And that's pretty much my story. You asked him to marry you, didn't you?

47:01Davina McCall:What? Did you ask Ed to marry you? Yes. Men didn't really go for me. Gay men fall for me. But straight guys didn't really go. So you were like, you had to ask. I had to ask, yeah. And he was going out with somebody, but Dawn went up to the girl and went, scram. and then waited outside the door until we consummated. It wouldn't open the door until we consummated with me. Is that serious? Yeah, in Nottingham, yeah. Oh, my God, that's amazing. What was she like? Did she cheer or something after she'd heard that it had been consummated? She just got rid of the girlfriend at the last night party. Oh, God.

47:37And she scrammed and then locked us in a room and said, you're not coming on until you consummate. She knew how to take care of me.

47:45Davina McCall:But you and Ed, even though you are leading separate lives, you are good friends Yeah, we're good friends He lets me do what I want I think that's hitting bullseye And there's deep love there I guess Yeah I guess if you let somebody be completely free Yes I mean, months go by And I'm in different countries Because I like the new Some people could call it running But I love the new You know, where the environment switches, switches, switches, and you have to make new friends. And then that becomes my, people say, I have three kids. And I go, you have three kids. And then my girlfriend said, so do you.

48:25I forgot.

48:27Davina McCall:I forgot. You're married. You've got three kids, but you still love being alone, going on adventures. I don't like being alone, but I like forming communities. When I go, I'll make a community because I can for some reason. And that's my reality. So I just was in Costa Rica teaching mindfulness with Jon Kabat-Zinn and Jack Kornfield. These are the big boys. I would, that's, those are my rock stars. And Bessel van der Kolk, who wrote Body Keeps the Score, Esther Perel. They all go to Costa Rica to teach. So I was teaching too. Now I know that's landing from another planet into something that's unbelievable.

49:12And so I made friends there. And during the month, if you said, where did I live? I'd say, here. Just like in the jungle, I said, this is where I live. These are my friends.

49:22Davina McCall:My God, there's so much I want to talk to you about. You've just mentioned the jungle. What was that like? Were you surprised at how much you kind of enjoyed it? No, I thought I would. I thought I didn't really see the show before So I kept saying to Ginge Are we live? And he'd go I mean We're always live Let's just talk about you and Ginge Right So cute Were we cute? Oh my god Yeah Like such good friends Unexpected friendship I think for him in particular He was like Oh my god I love this woman Yeah I think they felt Do you think this is amusing That I said Why do you like me so much? Like because I'm cool Or like because I'm really attractive And he said no you remind me of my nan now I'm sorry that was really upsetting because I thought they'd say you're the coolest person we've ever met that's when somebody comes up to me and goes oh my mom loves you oh yeah I get my grandmother yeah yeah before but it's lovely I think when you meet a whole new bunch of people that really almost don't know anything about you yeah they've got no history with you or you know way they don't know who I am no no he had no idea he thought I was like I just walked off the street yeah so um he first of all I told him to get out of my light and everybody went oh how can she talk to somebody like that and he loved the abuse some men just because to me that's flirting it's the only way I know you just like with him over and over again and treat him like shit and they love it you know listening to your life and what you've been through and the beginnings of it and the sort of chaos and the moving around.

51:02Davina McCall:And then how did you come to be fascinated by mindfulness? Like what made you think, oh, this is something I'd like to experiment with? Who did you meet? I was in the institution and I already was a psychotherapist and they told me to leave because I missed too many because I was in that state of not being able to move. And they said, oh, you'll have to start over again. This is after I got my degree. But I was going for a master's. So I thought, okay. I panicked. So I said, Ed, take me to mindfulness because I knew it was free. Once you learn it, you don't have to pay for a shrink. And that was my only stipulation.

51:43And I was curious. So he took me from the institution. I was in my pajamas.

51:47Davina McCall:When you say institution, do you mean like a treatment center? Nightingale, yeah. Yeah, clinic. What do you call it? Mental clinic? A clinic. A clinic. Yeah, well, I wasn't having my nails done. Clinique, le clinique, le mental asylum.

52:08Davina McCall:So, and did they tell you about that there, about mindfulness? No, I just heard about it. Yeah, so Ed picked me up. I was in my pajamas. I went to a course and I said, this is really interesting, but I want to know what happens neurologically because I don't have time for this. You know, I'm not sitting and breathing. And if you teach it wrong, that's what it looks like. another woo-woo thing. So I said, who invented this? Or who brought it from the East? And they said Mark Williams. So he was teaching at Oxford. So in my pajamas, with a coat over it, I got on a bus and went to Oxford. You went on a bus?

52:42Davina McCall:A bus. In your pajamas? With a coat over it. That's how I traveled, because I was in there for five months at that time. Oh, God. What a life, Ruby. All the people in the institution, in Le Clinique said, God, you're so brave because I put my lipstick on I thought near my mouth around my eye it's close so I got I was with you know pajamas they look like clothes but I just couldn't get dressed but I could get on that bus and I found Mark Williams and I said what goes on in the brain I went to where he was working and he said he said I'll teach you how to do mindfulness he took mercy on me and so he taught me mindfulness sometimes coming to my closet in London.

53:27I don't know why he did that. But he saw something in you. He must have done. And then he said, you have to get into Oxford. And so, boy, did I give an interview. Boy, did I interview. And I said, if you don't let me in, I'm going, I'm starting to do your master's. To do my master's and study neuroscience. I said, you guys don't matter. And that is like getting a man. You guys don't matter. So I was in. And then it was, that's where I thought mindfulness is interesting because you could see what happens in a brain scanner, exactly what you're exercising. And it has the same results for medication.

54:02Davina McCall:And I mean, I know this sounds a bit of a stupid question, but I'd be really interested to hear your take on exactly what mindfulness is. You know, people think, oh, it's, you sit down, you don't think of anything, but like, what is it? Well, it's, you know, when you go to the gym and you lift a weight and you get a bicep, So this is it for the mind. But you have to understand that when you are, there's certain parts like the alarm, the amygdalas aroused, and we live in a continual state of arousal, continuous. We have no way of coming down. So that part is activated. There's another part when you send focus into your body called the insula.

54:42I'm making it easy. when you've sensed something or you feel your ass on the chair or you feel your feet on the ground or you're doing Pilates or something, and you're in your body instead of just competing with the next person. You're in it and you can feel it. When you're in that state of sensing inside, another part gets activated. The amygdala can't be activated at the same time. So the other part, you can't hear something when you really listen and think at the same time. So you're tricking your brain. So you get used to kind of going into the body. The thoughts will take over. They have to.

55:18People go, I can't stop thinking. You're supposed to. But you bring the focus back to that sense, like breathing. The thoughts come, you bring it back. And every time you do that, you need the thoughts. It's like lifting a barbell. So that insula and other areas in the brain get sicker and thicker. Like you can say it's muscle, but it's neurons. It's neural growth. And when you have growth in those areas, it means you're more proficient at doing certain things like focusing your attention, like bringing you down your cortisol, even there's a shit storm around you. Because people say, oh, I jog or I play golf.

55:51Well, if somebody's giving you hell or your kids are screaming, are you going to start jogging? So when I'm in this situation, I can pull down my cortisol only because I exercise certain parts. And it's going back and forth, thoughts back to the sense, thoughts back, even two minutes a day, those parts will get, if you do five sit-ups a day, it'll take longer to get a six-pack, but eventually you'll have it. So people say, how long does it take? Well, do three minutes a day, but it's a specific exercise. It isn't just sitting there breathing. You're training your body like you would a wild animal, like you would a child having a hissy fit.

56:28You're training it. You're giving it an anchor. Otherwise, your thoughts will think about thoughts, will think about thoughts. When we ruminate, that's what wipes us out. That's what frazzled means. Frazzled doesn't mean stress. It means stress about stress. And that's a new disease. I go, oh shit, I shouldn't be like this. Nobody else is. Davina has everything going. I don't. And the story will never end. It'll never end. But I think if you're a little more, I hate the word mindfulness, but if you're a little more conscious or aware you'd think let me call my cortisol down look at her in the eyes and think we're both human but you can only I can only see you like or see what you see if I'm cool yes if my mind is gambling too much we're just talking superficially yes you did a book with

57:19Davina McCall:Geelong didn't you Thubton Geelong Geelong yeah I call him oh my god I call him Geelong really Yeah, get on. He'll answer to anything. What a guy. What a guy. I love that man. Yeah. He lived in my house for five years. You're joking. No. And I picked him up at a conference and I said, I'm begging you to come live with me. And I said, because you match my sofa. And I used to put him on my red sofa and we'd just see his head floating there. It was hours of fun. And then I got, you know, it was like having a smudge stick living at my house. And we laugh. Nobody's as outrageous as him. No one. He's wild.

57:59Davina McCall:But I like him because he has all that amazing energy and sense of self and calmness. But he's also a normal person. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? But hilarious. But funny. Yeah. Like, you wouldn't expect that of a month. Well, he's disciplined. You know, if I did one month of silence, which already is a killer, he did five. You've done a month of silence. Yeah. Have you? Yeah. In a silent retreat. Oh, my God. But you're not just silent. You're doing 13 hours of meditation. Yeah, that's a goal for me for the future. It's hardcore. But your mind in the beginning, it's going to savage you. And if you left during that point, good luck.

58:40It's savaging you. But it gets louder and louder and louder. But because you're anchoring yourself with the mindfulness, it doesn't slip into depression. It keeps coming back, but it's hell. It keeps coming. coming back to the anchor, mind to hell, hell, hell, everything. And about a week in, it finally gets exhausted. And then you start to taste food for the first time. I had an affair with a digestive. I had an affair with a digestive. I couldn't believe what, because you're not talking to anybody anymore. You're not going, what do you do for a living? Or, you know, you're sitting at the table, you're completely present because now you're tuned in.

59:22The thoughts are still there, but they're more, boy, are you a jerk. They're like firecrackers that can't go off. Just vaguely, just really silent. Still trying to get you, but you can't hear the end of the sentence. And then they give you a digestive. I took a bite and my head was flung backwards. What's flung? I couldn't believe the taste. And I saved it in my shoe. It took me a week to eat it. And then I ran into the kitchen once. I lost my silence. This is the three weeks in, and I said, how did you make this egg? And they went, with an egg. But you'd watch spiders making spider webs going, oh, my God, because everything becomes fascinating.

1:00:04In the beginning. But that's present, being present, right?

1:00:08Davina McCall:Like in the most amazing way. Colors. Mindfulness is something that I think would benefit most people. Not everybody. No. Why not? I just think we're all different fingerprints, you know, so what's good for me, you know, isn't good for the next person. And if you really hate it, don't do it because the ultimate, ultimate thing is to be the reason you're bringing your focus back to the sense, back to the sense is you got to do it with kindness because otherwise you're just exasperating the mind and it'll go, you come back, you idiot, you just went off. but you're supposed to go to thinking but if you do it like gently with a dog that's wild it'll sit in your lap so you learn to be nice or compare i used to say to mark williams i can't say the c word compassion it's like a little greeting card compassionate being the c word yeah i love that yeah i can't say it now i can say it but he said the fact that you can sit and do mindfulness even for three minutes, he said that that's compassion, the fact that you do that to your body.

1:01:10But, you know, people are so, you know, I was saying that people in this country, when I first got here, weren't even brushing their teeth. And now everybody's in the gym trying to get, you know, breasts under their arms. Well, that'll get you a hotter date, but the brain exercise makes you live longer. Have you done everything that you wanted to try?

1:01:32Davina McCall:Have you kept your side of the street clean? Who do you need to make amends to? I mean, I know I have dirt in the corners that I need to sweep out or get out, you know, and I'm not there. But I've done everything I wanted to do and sort of gone everywhere. So I don't feel frustrated in that and tried everything. I mean, there's a bit of me that's really decadent, not sexually. I see that. Yeah, decadent. Yeah. And I'm very loose morally.

1:02:09Davina McCall:That's not my, that's not, I'm not saying that's the dirt. No, but do you find that's getting worse? Because I find that I'm getting like more Miriam Margolis by the minute. Like I'm like, I don't give a shit anymore about what people think of me, which is not how I felt in my 20s or my 30s. No, that's lessening. But I have FOMO and I only have FOMO when I'm in London. That's why I like being out of here. There's a bit of me that my heart breaks when somebody does better than me. I can't go on social media. I pay for somebody because I'm competitive and that disgusts me. But I hope before I die, I can go ahead.

1:02:51You know, it doesn't bother me. I mean, I've done so much more than people who are just in show business. And yet I think there's a resentment that I've been kicked out. Right. By the BBC. Yeah. Yeah. On the other hand, if I was still there, I'd be kicked out by now anyway. Or what would I be doing?

1:03:09Davina McCall:But look, in a funny kind of way, when something like a big organization that you've worked with for decades lets you go. or that you leave. I mean, it was a kind of two-way thing, wasn't it, really? But that you look what you went off and did. No, I know. Your whole mindfulness. Oh, yeah. No, no. When I think of it as somebody else, I think, wow, how do you do that? But I don't like that I have FOMO and I don't like that I'm loose morally. And any other things that you want to sort out before you die? FOMO, loose morally, and being able to feel safe where I'm standing. How is that going to happen?

1:03:50Well, I'll work on it. That's my next job. If I can do that, then I can die. I also volunteer to be a... I work at a hospice so that I can be near it. I can be near death.

1:04:05Davina McCall:Oh, can I just say something? What? That's so weird. When I retire, I'd like to be a death doula. I went on a course. You didn't? Yeah. Did you really? I did. Oh, my God. How funny is that? In the last few months. No. Yeah. What an honor to be with someone and to be able to help them. What an honor. What an honor. Yeah. No, I did it. Have you been with people when they've died? I was with Rickman. Oh, were you? That's so beautiful. That's such a hole. I mean, I'll never get over that one. When did he die? Ten years ago. Yeah, it's really tough. Ten years without him. And Carrie? Yes. Well, top those acts.

1:04:53So I feel privileged to be around people who are dying. So I worked in the Marsden a long time ago, and they let me take people out, you know, to take them to get drinks and things because they're dying. and now it's at St. George's. Yes. But because of my tour and stuff, I can't get there a lot. But when they do let me, yeah, that's my – I wouldn't say my happy place, but I feel like I can give them some life. But anyway, that's what I do. And if I didn't tour so much, I'd do it more.

1:05:32Davina McCall:So listen, before we finish, I just wanted to – Is there another? Yeah, there's another little thing here. A little card. A little card. I want you to read it out loud. Please. From Alan's niece, Sarah. No one could make Alan laugh the way that Ruby did. He marveled, adored, and hugely admired her. His death was devastating for so many, but despite dealing with her own unfathomable grief, she was still there for Rima, caring for her in the aftermath like only she could. Ruby was Alan's best friend, and I'm grateful for the deep friendship she still has with Rima. It is a beautiful thing. If I could cry, I'd cry.

1:06:16I can't cry.

1:06:18Davina McCall:Thank you. That's really beautiful. Ruby, I have such profound respect for you. Thank you. You're an amazing woman. What a role model. Well, to keep reinventing yourself and to never stand still. I know that you can't help it it's impossible for you to stand still with your loose morals yeah but I really I look up to you it's very nice to have someone to look up to thank you and thank you for living such a brilliant life and sharing it with us today thank you, let's hope I can be alone I'm coming over to hug you while you're sitting let's give her a round of applause everybody thank you So just in case you missed this episode here If you love this episode I know you're going to love that