Tom Davis on Sobriety, Fatherhood & the Anxiety That Took Him Off Stage

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0:27I was 24 stone. I drank a lot. I went to his doctors and had like a liver of a 70-year-old alcoholic. I drink before a gig, I drink after a gig. And what did that feel like? When I first started stand-up, I was fearless. For like 10 minutes on stage, I'm able to do something that I enjoy. I then started piling pressure on every gig. The imposter syndrome never went away. Like somewhere along the line, I'd lost who I was on stage, lost a lot of self-worth. I felt like I've kind of let everyone down. Catherine, my wife, was like, this is making you so unhappy i'd probably lose my relationship if i carry on i don't know what i'd have done without her she'd been in for these tests and she was in the early stages of septic sort of shock that's when we were sort of told like you know she wouldn't be able to carry children anymore i feel so blessed to be becoming a dad so i never thought i'd have that so i have to treat that with the respect it's deserved i make all the wrong choices when i'm drunk and i'm over i don't want any wasted mornings i need to be healthier i grew into myself i grew into what i am now what has been the most useful for you in your life.

1:31Having knocks along the way and there's a resilience I'm trying to tell people don't be scared of failure if you don't really want to be lying on your deathbed surrounded by the regrets of the things you didn't do. Tom Davis hi. Hello. It's so nice to have you here. We are connected by so many kind of mutual coincidences our paths have so nearly crossed. Yeah ships in the night. Yeah it's It's quite funny, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, it's a weird thing. Almost days or moments away from bumping into someone. I can't, yeah. We were, would you say stablemates? Yeah, definitely. I would say that. Stablemates.

2:10Exactly. Nay. Nay. You know, I was really enamored by hearing your beginnings at school because my middle daughter is a very dyslexic. Yeah. And really struggled because she had a non-dyslexic older sister. The younger sister was. And it was really difficult for her at school. And I think your story is so inspiring for anyone who struggled. Yeah. So what was that like for you going through school? I think school, it's a strange thing, isn't it? Because I think you don't really realise when you're in it quite how. Yeah, it's really till years and years later. To be quite clear, I think I knew the limitations.

3:01And I often talk about the fact that hope was kind of stripped away. I don't know about your daughter, but I was sort of almost, I think, given up on at a very young age. I think times have changed slightly. Actually, I've got a niece now who's dyslexic and she's going through this at the moment. And you go, oh, maybe we're a bit more knowledgeable about all this now. And then you hear stories and you go, well, maybe we're not. I think for me it was, I remember the first memories of school were either, I remember like the thing of not knowing things or not quite understanding how things that were getting told or, you know, with ADHD what that is now and struggling to understand sometimes what was going on and struggling, like knowing the answers or knowing the things that I wanted to do and not, but knowing then also limitations when coming to like being dyslexic.

3:46and then quite quickly humor even at a very young age became a way of of you know sort of masking how I really felt so I remember like messing around in class I remember a teacher hitting me around the back of the head and like uh-huh and he grabbed me and just sort of shouting at me because she was so annoyed and and I sat in the front of the class and I didn't even go home the weird thing my mom said I didn't ever went home and told my mom it was another kid told his mom and a chief of mine and and my mom was forever going up the school and saying that you know he understands but there's something happening here and she wanted those checks done and no one would do them but so they never tested you no no i later on in life i've had that wow and i think the thing for me was i remember a teacher really really vividly bringing me in another girl up to the front of class and i was the bottom student she was the top and her doing this whole who do you think is going to get further out of life and i couldn't believe that yeah and it's it's so you think that's probably yes your informative year so for old would you have been when that happened I'd have probably been 10 or 11.

4:46She was quite an interesting character. I think I'll put it to her name, Mrs Craven or Miss Craven. And she was a sort of like, I guess in a way, like a bit of a hippie and sort of, but she, you know, I think, it's such an insane thing to say looking back, but I could tell that teachers never kind of liked or wanted, they see it as messing around and being silly, I think. But maybe then also thought he clearly understands and he's just pissing about. and I remember just being in the class and being called up and that being yeah to the front of the class and for and and that and with another girl yeah who was you know a nice class top of class very academic very academic not too sure what she's doing now I thought we looked into it but um what's in what's interesting is that she chose she didn't choose no well wait hang on I mean I do I was almost about to excuse her but I know to do that to ask the class to choose who's gonna be and i think more successful in the future and i think that's the thing that school is and i don't know about your daughter i think that that thing is like the academic process process and you speak to parents now and one of the things that i'm really really i we're working with the king's trust now we do a whole scheme with youngsters who haven't necessarily performed very well at school my thing is what we do for a living the creatives I write for a living now, you know, without being at all arrogant.

6:10Like, and I write to a pretty high level. Right. And, but for a long time, you got to think, it took me till 32 to start believing. It actually took me longer than that, really, to believe in myself. You know, even now, Romesh and me talk a lot about this. And Romesh is a very deep thinking sort of guy. And the imposter syndrome that never really goes, your formative years, that's always going to be there. so all the success that I've been blessed to have later on in life and all the things that have happened to me a lot of time you can still feel like that kid standing in front of the class in front of your peers all looking at you knowing that you know they they think you're lesser than someone else and that can happen I think quite a lot and that's your go-to at any given time and I think that's the sort of stigma you're trying really to change.

6:55Do you is there any part of you that can can see that that built resilience in you like did it did it make you think I'm gonna show them not that time not that time what did it what did it feel like then you describe if i'm going to be really honest to vena i thought that she will do a lot better of me out of life i thought like my limitations of what like and i say this really like when people say oh did you want to always want to be a comedian or do you do you always want to be an actor and like quite honestly like no it was never something that obviously i'd have dreamt of it on you know sitting at home watching Fools on Horses or whatever, you know, you'd be watching with your dad and your mum and your family.

7:35You'd go, of course you want to, you know, be Trigger. Do you know what I mean? Be the guy who plays Trigger. But that felt like a million, million miles away. And as a kid, you know, I wanted for a long time to be a bin man. I thought, that looks like a laugh. That looks like something I'd actually be okay at. You know, they all seemed like I'd have fun. And work on a building site, you know, be a labourer or whatever. they were the things I was a chef for a little bit I tried things the resilience that was built in me from a very young age I was never scared of failing Did that come from failing?

8:12Yeah all the time I was awful at most sports I try my dad jokes now I remember going home to my dad and saying I've joined chess club he went you don't know how to play chess and I was like yeah but I'll just give it a try and then I entered in a chess tournament and lost every game and got a best sportsmanship badge at the end. But I was never really that. I just thought it would be quite fun to try. And it's a really weird thing now where I look at life and I look at young people. Every bit of that sort of the carbon fiber I guess makes you become the human being you are. A lot of that failing and a lot of that, oh, that's not.

8:49But also the work ethic of having to get up and go to a building site. I think there is, and I hate the sort of way that we talk about it because young people are going for a lot. We've got a lot of that to go, you know. But also there is an element of like, I think generationally things have changed massively. I think there's been a shift. I don't think people want to work on building sites anymore. I don't think people want to go and labour. I don't think people want to do what they deem as jobs that aren't as flat. Yeah, I think, you know, we didn't have social media. like there was such a sort of distance it always felt from being that person on television to being like you know and for a lot of my life it felt like that and the only people that you really saw were the people on television or the people on the street doing the jobs yeah and so you didn't have that thing of social media where everybody seems to be doing a job better than you yeah and we all fall into this place social media is a really dangerous thing as a father now i look at and look, I'm like you, right?

9:48We work in an industry where there's a certain element of what we do where we have to go, right, you know, I try and be as earnest as I can be and, you know, as to how my life is and as transparent. But you are aware that, you know, the growth of the social media star, even in the time I've been in this industry, I'm like, wow, it's changed. The dynamics changed. There was like, I think Facebook was there. Twitter was just really sort of gaining. But there wasn't what you call social media stars. there were people who were television stars and there's still a difference I think in what those two things are I think I'm going off the subject here no but I mean what I you know I do think when in terms of life you're right about what you're seeking in life is very different now for young kids yeah um and it's interesting that people don't want to do the jobs like I worked in a restaurant for two years yeah and it was the best learning curve I've ever done it taught me so much customer care yeah is everything you can see that in you as a performer I know it sounds but you can see the fabric yeah yeah but you can see that you the thing that I think oozes from you is as a people person right it's the thing I remember talking to Greg James years ago about this actually like you think of like that i suppose our generation of presenter and like so many of the sort of grounding of that was restaurant work yeah it wasn't social you know it was learning how to be around people and i learned about difficult people yeah and how to manage um somebody who's a bit arsy yeah and i learned how to um um be polite when somebody was off their head drunk you know yeah i learned i learned how to um calm the chef because somebody'd asked for their lamb to get well cooked and he was like i'm not doing that and he's like getting all angry about that and you know it's these are all skills that i still use now but but they're and they're great skill it's a really interesting thing of like i look at the years spent you know like i worked in i spent a long time working on building sites i then was like oh actually i might go and train and try and be a chef and then so i did that you like building sites i love them yeah i think the social aspect the social aspects the the work um ethic that you get put um as a learning ground i found it as is it's a really like there's a fallacy and it's like a thing that really annoys me whenever i get a part or you know early on that you get a part sent as a builder and it would always be like wolf whistling and and that's such and it's such a small minority of people are like that most people aren't looking out on the street ready to wolf whistle do you know i mean it's most people are grafting knocking their pipe out and but also the the different cultures of people you meet are different people i think there's this again a misconception that it's just a entirely white sort of working class and that's not true you'd meet people from all different backgrounds all from different places around the world i think you know some of the different you know cultures that you come across are great but i think the big thing was that work ethic of going you we've got to show up if you don't get paid i think i remember you know looking now where we are as a you know uh recession wise and where we are economically i remember yeah i've lived through a recession i've been in that situation where you might work four days of a week get to a friday and go oh i don't know if i've got work on monday have to go to a pub on a friday evening and a saturday trying to ask if anyone's got any work yeah i never had a job interview until i was until i got into this really you know it was like meeting someone hopefully again like you say you know your character would if you seem like a person everyone would get on with and you're a nice guy people go yeah you know you get you wouldn't sometimes have to work as hard if you're uh if you could be a bit of a laugh but it was it was a great grounding and when i came into this industry it that's been the that i think that above anything else was a difference that i knew i knew that i wasn't coming from i wasn't very well connected i wasn't you know i hadn't been I hadn't had the necessary training when it came to sort of writing, English, university, whatever.

13:52I knew, like, the one thing that I had in my back pocket was I was ready to work as hard as not. Yeah. And, like, get your nut down and graft. That was the thing where I'm like, that's going to be the thing. How much do you think, Michael and I often talk about male hierarchy and how that works, that women don't do this really when they walk into a room. They kind of assess women, but there is a, like, in a room, Michael always says there's a hierarchy of men, and there's, like, the alpha male. You can kind of see, you're, like, assessing everybody. But, like, being tall, that must have helped you.

14:29No, you've got a target on your back. There's an Ilka person that you look at and go, they're probably very good at sport at school. They've always had that alpha sort of vibe. They've always sort of commanded some sort of respect. Yeah, the job. and I never felt into that camp and I never really fell into sort of what you'd say was probably like a boffin or a nerd I sort of you know but I was very acutely aware and a number of times when I was younger that like being tall or being big and standing out like it's a weird thing where you look now and go like you know I remember being with Jack White or Virgin like V Festival years ago and Jack but that had just popped and we're good mates Jack and I remember him saying at some point it'll pop for you but your trouble's going to be where are you going to hide he had a cat down and no one knew it was a cat and he was like you won't and that's the thing of like when you're 6 foot 7 you walk into a room straight away people are going to clock you and there's no way around that so you have to there go right okay like and it's again it's one of those things that became valuable as a stand up in a sense because I never wanted to be someone where number one you don't want people thinking you're coming in and you're a big alpha, that's not who I am it's never been in my makeup, it isn't how I conduct myself.

15:51And people feel like if they can have one over on the tall guy I remember selling t-shirts back in the day and I remember being it was in Stratford it was like a dance festival and I remember just minding my own business and chatting to some people when this guy just came over and he just ripped his shirt off and he just started pushing me and I was like what are you doing he was off his head but I was like what are you you're not what's going on he's like come on big man you want it I was like no I don't really don't what part of this looks like I want this I was just standing here um but then you're also acutely aware that you kind of have to like and that's what I think like diffuse a situation very quickly without you have to you have to you can't just be like yeah you've got is that where comedy comes in oh yeah that my dad's thing to me was like you're not going to be that person who goes in and you're not going to you don't want to be a bully but so you need to be the funny guy and and that but i used to say that yeah and it was how to to sort of like so people want to spend time he was always like i suppose in the sense i'm a people pleaser but i was always very it's very very like dawn's at a very young age that this is going to be the thing like never an idea of doing what i'm doing but in any given situation try and just just i've always loved making like even when i look back at school and i was never picked for any plays i remember like being in a no no i remember like being uh background i think it was a tree or something and and yeah just at the back and and And then I remember just seeing a bit of the thing, a bit of the set, and thinking, God, it's so boring standing on a tree and leaning on it, and the whole set fell down, and everyone just starts laughing and pointing at you.

17:40And you're like, oh, well, that feels kind of nice. And that feeling of joking, and I think when you're on a site, they're long days. And I think if you could be the person who's doing impersonations of people or telling jokes and having a bit of crack, I think that's a really important thing. I think it's, you know, I just did a film with Guy Ritchie and I was like, chatted to Guy a lot and I adore Guy. He's like someone I find very, very inspiring, find an amazing person to be around. And we started talking about like the grounding of a pub and how important pubs, not just for alcohol and drinking, because that's not saying I do anymore, but like how important that as a place of education about every part of like, you know, like the matriarch who runs everything sort of respect giving you know it's like to someone behind a like behind a jump is everything do you know what I mean she can control these you know these alphas or whatever like for some unknown reason that sort of portrayal of Peggy Mitchell which was so bang on when you come from that environment but actually the sort of camaraderie the laughing the joking the sort of like we used to drink in a place like a butter churn in Sutton and it used to be one of those sort of I used to love her most nights if I'm in Stalina I mean that's a problem I used to drink too much but I used to love that Friday like getting finishing work at like one two o 'clock and getting to the pub and and it being like the different characters that's had such an imprint on everything I've done subsequently but the the thought of being around people and making people laugh that was the thing I I you know and you you can fall away from that every now and again you you sort of it's not always cool and it's not always sexy to be that person you realize quite a lot of time you're friend zoned or big sister.

19:22Do it? Yeah. I'm quite interested in this idea. I mean, obviously, I've always thought that funny people are very clever. You can't be funny without being clever. When did you realize that actually being funny is a form of intelligence? I think I still sometimes. Doubt that. Yeah. it's very strange like because coming from my way into this industry like there's a real funny thing I don't know if you ever have this that I always feel that people I was so thought that I was sort of just a bit of a wally that everyone kind of just assumes that they could do what I've done and like you'll talk the amount of times I bump into someone I went to school with or used to work with and they're going oh yeah I might try staying up because it feels like you've done alright anyone could sort of do it and you're like I mean isn't that's but somewhere in you you must have known know it's harder than that yeah no but also you know how much of this is luck i could never do stand-up yeah it's i really i just couldn't but i would wait i stopped for six years and it was like like when we talk about like now it's a really interesting thing when i look and we this open conversation especially in the male space about mental health and where we sit and how we look into you know you know you talk about the dyslexia or something that like if i'm honest with you and this doesn't mean i never like got done knows as a kid because once i left school and i worked as a labor i was like i'm never going to need to write again it's just like you know and i did weirdly i'd write poetry i'd write like skits or i'd write things but even now like you know if i'm on stage a lot of my act is comes from in the moment it comes that's it yeah i'll have a thought i write bits down but it's all about instinct and about is this thing going to work is this thing and that's so much of the time when i write stuff i go oh this is going to be the thing that kills and i go on stage and i go oh shit that's not worked as well and if you're free in the moment and you go like oh that i can go here with this or we can go there and then you just learn it in almost like when you listen to a song song on the radio you almost it's like okay that's you know the beats of the song so you're effectively freestyling yeah i mean it's sometimes yeah i mean once you know the act the act's there but it's the best thing in the world is when it breaks out and you think about i mean the worst thing in the world is when you've recorded your special and it's down done and then on the sort of second tonight last night uh you go oh shit that's what i said i said you come up with a bit but um it should always be evolving i think everything we do i think if you if you're locked down and you're confined into the place of like oh this is what it is and that's why like strip i was stripped of that for like six years where like the anxiety and the the mental anguish of can i say something very quickly do you mind me saying this no you don't know what i'm gonna say no i don't know so you don't know if i'm gonna say yeah but i was gonna say to you that you you were just saying to me about the anxiety but i would like to say about you and i think people say the same about me they just can't imagine us being anxious yeah at first i was fearless right so when i first started stand up i was like this is just this should be another thing i can i might fail at and i was very i was i worked hard at it i grafted i was very much like this is something that i i love doing and all of a sudden from having what felt like a very limited life felt like you know all of a sudden I was doing something actually this is quite creative and this feels more like you know and yeah a lot of people were still being like oh yeah what are you gonna do you know you're not gonna make a living out of it and and I never needed that I was like yeah but you know what for like 10 minutes on stage I'm able to do something that I enjoy was for me and then and then you get a little bit of success and you start and and then I had like external people around me and what was what now feels like in like there was a like an ilk then of like this is what a comedian almost looked like and i wasn't that thing and i was like getting sort of and i was kind of like you know lee francis who's one of our really close friends he's like lee had seen me and stuff through james the fond who was like a childhood friend and lee had seen me and stuff and lee saw something and as james obviously you know i wouldn't be here about james the fond and and this is probably the only few people that I get very choked up when I talk about, but I wouldn't have a career.

23:49And he saw that way before I ever did. I get more emotional talking about James than anything else, actually. It's not lovely. No, but as a male friendship goes, but he always had that belief, and it was unwavered. And we've been through a hell of a lot together as friends and as colleagues, but that side of him was like, and he came to every gig for years, but yeah it was amazing amazing incredible to have someone like that support yeah like that that's what you need from a friend but i think then other external voices came in and you saw this you know so tell me what the voice sounded like to you like like every gig was like i'll prep i'll prep i'll prep so when i first started i didn't know what stand up like my only i wasn't like you didn't have a formula no and i hadn't trained so and i hadn't also i wasn't like someone who you know eddie murphy roar or bernie matt like i loved a lot of def jam and and that sort of stuff uh but i wasn't going to like it wasn't the comedy felt at times quite middle class it's weirdly seeing mickey flanagan at the i went to see him at the backyard club he's he is so funny he's so brilliant and mickey was the guy that i saw doing stand-up and i thought oh actually wow this is like not like because it sounds disrespectful to say but i sort of thought fuck he's talking about stuff that i talk about down the pub and we laugh about on the building site he felt so yes so know exactly what you mean so once we got into so once i started i'd you know i'd write stuff and i'd learn stuff and whatever but i'd enjoy it and then all of a sudden it became more serious than that and it but yeah and people were like and you need to write your material and you know i don't know how like but when you're then trying out for to do spots on television they want to read your act and i'd never written it down because you know right because you're freestyling yeah and also being dyslexic like you know so i then started like the piling pressure on every gig like you're talking about there every gig was like and it didn't matter if it was like in front of seven people in a pub or a tryout for something and what did that pressure feel like can you explain like physical not being able to eat that day like literally and just like heart rate yeah heart rate up anxiety but also just constantly like i can't remember there's a term for it but thinking i'm gonna die i'm gonna this is gonna be the worst gig ever like i'm gonna absolutely for this is a moment that i'm gonna get found out this is the moment that when that's a bit imposter syndrome yeah yeah but this is a moment i'm a complete fake yeah and everybody's gonna realize today yeah and there'll be someone at the gig who just goes you know what yeah he was all right for a little bit but yeah he's had his moment you know so and i just piled on pressure and then that came at a time i suppose actually this predates katherine a sense actually because i started that's where i was like drinking like a lot i was like in a situation to explain to everybody katherine's your wife yeah so yes so you were drinking a lot so i drink before a gig i drink after a gig i'd numb the pain of how bad that was your anesthetic yeah it was like you know going out and also then did that affect your performance always always and also as you're well aware it affected the the two or three days after of just feeling yeah of course like you have depressed down more anxious then so you that happened on a thursday and saturday you're out again and all you can really remember is you sort of like have this awful feeling of like oh like that that one went so badly or maybe it had gone a little bit better but you had been drunk and you go oh actually maybe if I just get drunk again that'll you know yes and it got to a point where Catherine was like you you have no enjoyment from it like we've been together for a while and I had no enjoyment from that side of stuff how long did it feel like that period went on for how long was it like car crash for that I think it was like I think I went probably for about a year or two it kind of like culminated a lot of stuff where you know I don't want to get too much into this but like but like the management I was with at the time it's almost like you know this isn't your stand-up so I felt like there's no one really believing in that no and also I just felt I was looking around at people that her friends and adore but I was like why these people are so much better and me at this thing and it was like like i i sort of was just like i'd you know i just felt that i had somewhere along the line i'd lost who i was on state it's a really important thing it's like the thing like when i watch you is everything not just confidence but whenever i watch you on television you're just unapologetically yourself right and that's the hardest thing to be i think people completely like i think it's the thing that why we all connect with davina mccall it's like it's the moment from if you're sitting at home and you're watching you on television you number one have that thing that you can't buy is that you all automatically feel like you feel like that person in the pub and that's the biggest call that comes in and everyone chats and laughs with and there's a joke if that feels and it's a thing for me that i don't think you can ever buy i don't think you can buy the the people at home going i like that person and i want they're willing you to do well but also for you not to for you always just to go like this is who i am that's a highlight and i was like going on stage and going who am i like and i never had that i was always like right i'm a guy from a building site i can play the underdog i was self-deprecating that's self-deprecation has been my thing since i was i can remember as well a bit like i'd always just be like i know i'm not the kind of raging beauty and i know i'm not that people love you Yeah, but like that's why people love you.

29:36It's that same energy. But I think it's interesting that you were doing that, but it wasn't giving you the feeling. But that's because I think you didn't have – you weren't surrounded by people who were believing in you. No, and I still had – It was like being back at school. Yeah, and I still had like James there. But then Catherine was like, you know, Catherine's thing was like, this is making you so unhappy. like you're not you're not going out I mean you know and at the time I'd then been lucky enough to do a bit of acting and a bit of writing and I was like this this is something that if I'm honest with you I was like this feels something I'm I'm not better at but I just find find my body tighten up as soon as I sort of went to go on stage and then I try to remember exactly what I should say and and that was never you know when I look back at the stuff that I've made over the is none of that is like the stuff that has been good it was just and i i think i got so tightly wound it was like well i'll probably lose my relationship if i carry on doing this so she's not going to stay around too because it was driving me like you know to a point of yeah i mean not mad i don't mean mad mad but it was like yeah but but you were struggling is to it Ladies!

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32:18This episode is in partnership with Airbnb. Tavina, have you got any big travel plans this year? Yes, I am. I'm going to see my daughter Tilly in Australia. She's out there being fabulous and I'm here crying over photos from 2008. So I booked my flight and then I thought, well hold on a minute my house is just gonna sit there so I actually decided to host it on Airbnb and now I have a lovely couple coming to stay while I'm away and it all happened super quick and it was that simple so now I'm gonna get Tilly Hugs sunshine I'm gonna be bathing on Bondi Beach or should I say Bondi Beach and they'll get to play Davina for the week which let me tell you It's quite good fun.

33:02So, I don't know, they might just turn up on Tuesday here and record if that's okay. Uh, okay? So it's the first time I've hosted with Airbnb, but I'm really excited because I've been able to make my place available for the exact dates that suit me. I love that flexibility. Have you considered that your home might be worth more than you think? So find out how much at airbnb.co.uk slash host. COVID was like an awful time and terrible. it was kind of a game changer where I was like I can sink here again or I can get my life in some sort of order here so Covid was quite a big time for you where you thought actually why why what was it about Covid that made you be able to like think oh my god I might sink it's like a reset button wasn't it number one I was like the first bit I was drinking a lot and I was really like when Covid hit you yeah because I'm a worker like I feel blessed to do this for a job I'd like still now i can't believe that this is what i do and then all of a sudden i'm like at home every day and i'm like i'll go into the office five days a week with james like alongside gigging acting podcast whatever else i'm doing i'm in an office and i'm writing and we were coming up with new shows i'm quite like i look at that as my that's a day job that's not like a luxury that is my job is to come up with shows white shows and and pay this the job the respect it deserves and all of a sudden I'm it's just me and Catherine at home and we'd been through quite a tough time before that and I don't think I'd really like like I got my head around a lot of stuff um so yeah like we so we we've been trying for a child for like seven years and we've been through a lot and and just before COVID like literally Christmas before Catherine had like we was going for some tests and you know when you have to die you know and run through your oh you mean through your ovaries yeah oh your float tubes isn't it and then she'd sort of been feeling quite unwell afterwards and sort of been running a high temperature and then she was like and i sort of feeling ill but she thought it was a flu or whatever and then i got a call from my mum and she was like i've been rushing to hospital and she was like running such a high temperature and like yeah you go in and you're like i was in london we're having a meeting and it was like you know dinner out type thing and and that's where like i look at and i was like you know sort of you know tv sort of me when you look at the drinks and you sort of and like i'd left this morning that morning she was like you know feel a bit rough i'm just gonna have a sofa day and then you know and she'd been rushing to hospital so i get there and like they're like her temperature's really really high we don't know what it is he's just so you know and then you know you're the next of kin and you're like wow okay like this is taking it so all of a sudden you're like okay and then like literally went from there to sort of like you know went home that night she was they kept her in i they were like you can't say so you know she was on a women's world so you go home and all of a sudden every thought in your head is like racing of like what is this thing this is like what's happened here like you know she was like you know it was fine yeah december yeah yeah she was a bit of a cold felt a bit unwell but you know that was things were going around and then so i went in the next day and and then she was sort of becoming more and more unwell and you're like fuck this isn't you know they still haven't found out what it was no and it's and then it was literally like there was like an amazing nurse i'll get onto that in a bit who was really like with her all the time and then she'd said that she'd been in for these tests and then they, you know, basically some of the died got caught and basically got infected.

36:43So she was in early sort of, early stages of like a sort of, like septic sort of. Shock. Yeah. So they drained that and literally she started, you know, getting better. And then we were sort of that, but that's when we were sort of told, you know, she wouldn't be able to, you wouldn't be able to carry children anymore. And you're like, shit, this is just before, this is like literally two days before Christmas Eve. No. so you sort of like and then she got released to come out on christmas eve um and you're sort of like there's a air of you that's so thankful that she's alive and she's made it but then also christmas must have been all yeah and it was but then like i remember at the time just thinking because she was so ill like when i say like you know and it was really sad because you know we haven't brought any christmas presents you haven't wrapped in it and like but you're like wow like she's still here and that's you know if i'm on his side she's like alongside james someone i look at and think has it you know i don't know what i'd have done or where i'd be without her and and that that it was a very real prospect that that might be something yes so you sort of get through christmas and then you sort of and then i did that thing that i think now i look back and it was like i just threw myself back into work i was just like right you know work work and and uh and then like I suppose it was March, wasn't it, where COVID then gets in.

38:02Yes, yes. And all of a sudden. God, that's a lot, isn't it? Yeah, and in your head you're like, you know, you're not really dealing with that sort of thing. You're not dealing with that stuff. You're sort of like, okay, you know, and we didn't, we talked about it, but we didn't. We're just both like, well, you're, you know, you're sort of all right. And I think, and it's, I should say as well, because it's such a, when you've been on a, like we tried for kids for ages and just it'd never gone our way. So that was all through your 30s basically. Yeah, and most of the predominant time together that we've been through.

38:35And you sort of have this weird thing of being like, when you hear people are having children and you've tried really hard. It's why I'm really, really conscious. I always try not to, like, you have this weird thing where you're really happy for them because you know it's a miracle, but also you're constantly going, why is this not happening for us? Yes. And it's now I'm really always conscious of that because I'm, you know, and I, you know, above anything else in the world as a dad, that's the thing, you know, for a while there, I was like, this isn't going to happen for me. That's, you know, and it's all I ever really wanted to be, you know.

39:07Really? Yeah, I always wanted to be a dad. I always thought I'd be pretty good. If I'm not going to be honest with you, Davina, a lot of things I look at in life and think, you know, I've been lucky or as a dad, and I've always thought, no, that's something I should be pretty good at. And you are, from what I hear. I hope so. I hope so. So Catherine would say that you are. Grace would say that you are, right? Yeah, I hope so. But we then, then COVID hit in and we lived at the time outside London. We lived quite a long way from family. Quite a bit closer to her family, not to mine. Not so close to my friends.

39:42So our bubble was each other really and our dog at the time. It was very isolated, wasn't it? Are you quite an extrovert person? Do you like people? I do to an extent, but less so now. not less so but now less so now no i hate people no but i still love people i love it but i think this job takes a little bit of that sometimes yes that's interesting you i think like now also at 46 i look at it now and i treasure the people i have in my life i know are there for all the right reasons yes and i know that and that's i guess the thing that so when so when we're together in in lockdown it's like oh shit it's just the two of us in the house i haven't got work at the moment to frame myself then we had bits but it was like a lot you know and then you know those walks every morning with the dog where it's just two of us became like the biggest blessing because you start talking about stuff and you start opening up and you reconnect and they start that and i think like one of the big things about being married and being in a relationship over you know we're 12 years in there is what you realize is at times that connection does fall up at the times you know that and i think it's really easy at times to think that that's like you know that thing where you just go like that a little bit is like there's that magnet is broken you're like you can drift a little bit you know as do you know what i call it no one you feel like an island yes you do it and then you form an archipelago yeah and you build a beautiful word you got a bridge between the two of you and then at some point the bridge falls down yeah and you go off and you're on island for a little bit you think oh i feel so alone yeah and quite like it yeah and then you think oh no i need yeah i think it's um that's real love but and you always know that the space to go and come back but that was really important that we built that acapella archipelago um but but we then had lots of time to talk about how we felt about feelings about where we were at and oh my god that is so helpful and it was kind of lovely and so so then i just was like i'd you know i'd sort of just gone like the the side of me that was just like the drinking the sort of like in a sense been playing this character for sort of a long long time of like you know the guy to go to like you know you know stag do's or great to go to the football with yes good time good time guy to be around like i was a good person to be around if you were in a pub and you were going to get drunk and and literally i could bump into someone and james would joke that i could literally go into a pub and come out and go this is my my daughter does it now she's three she's my new best friend but i'd go to work and james would be like i was out last night who with and i'd be like i don't know terry and mark who's terry and my great guys bumped into them in a weather spoons and i literally they were at my wedding um that's what james is as my best man james's joke was like there's people here that tom's met on a bus the fucking wait wait there's someone there that you married that you met in Nando's yes which is a beautiful thing it's a beautiful thing it was my favourite thing in your entire biography I was like he met his wife in Nando's it's the greatest thing ever I want to talk to you about that a bit later but I want to finish yeah so anyway about lockdown so I sort of there made this and I was like 24 stone I'd drunk a lot and I was like you were 24 stone yeah and I was just like I look at it now and think I sort of lost a lot of you know that sort of self worth in a sense and that's not as like just as myself and just thinking oh that's kind of just who I should be now it's who I am and actually just thinking and I suppose it's like that death is a weird thing I've been through it quite recently with my cousin I don't know who he talks about but when I was like 16 my dad had an accident where he nearly passed away.

43:34It was like he was underneath a car, walking in the car, and the car slipped from the thing and fell on him and crushed it, crushed his head. And the only person I could get hold of at the time was me. So I ended up going to the hospital and walking in on my dad just as he was being wheeled in. And then going then to what happened with Catherine, it was like this weird thing. And I'm very acutely aware, and I talked to my parents, I talked to Catherine about this, that I carry a lot of stuff that I know I haven't dealt with. You know, I've had quite a considerable amount of therapy because I think it's a really important thing to have.

44:02Yes. But I know that that's the... Yeah, so I look even now when I talk about my cousin, and even, like, it's really a weird thing. Like, I remember, like, it was her funeral two weeks ago. I remember sitting... Oh, man, I'm really sorry. Yeah, it's, like, yeah, awful, like, terrible. And she was, like, a very, like, like, incredible sort of human being. My mum was in fits of tears, my sister and Catherine, and, but I looked at all the men in the room, and like none of us from that did like you know I had a tear but I was like I wanted to you know let look like you know really let that out and even as someone I think I'm pretty open with my emotion I was like I can't I don't seem to be and and I think that thing you got in touch with it yeah I think I think or just I can't I guess there's a fear in a sense of once you let that open yes will it will it close again oh my god you'd be able to just will it just pour out I have the same thing.

44:58Yeah. Like a total fear of like, fuck, sorry, I'm swearing a lot. But if I start... People, by the way, come and watch me stand up and go, you swear a lot. I'm like, I'm a fucking scaffolder. No education, what do you expect? I'm not, though. I tell people not to swear for 10 years. But I am always quite scared of if I start, is this going to be an unstoppable flow? But that's not a reason not to start. And after I'd had my operation, I cried every day, at least two or three times a day with gratitude for being alive. I just couldn't. I just wonder at that. And I was kind of just laughing, crying, like all the time.

45:51Like I couldn't believe it. And it was slightly... I've been ahead you be like that. I cried. I cried. But it wasn't like that. But I knew that if I didn't get that out in some way later, it would punish me. It's a strange thing. Because, yeah, there's a moment. There's times... Even now, I feel this... You can feel it here, right? You feel the thing of like, oh, shit, I'm not... you know i'm letting that go and that that dealing with with death and dealing with things and i think but also i was so going i think i was talking about we were talking about death i'd like to ask you quickly about alcohol yeah so obviously you know i'm i'm sober are you sober is it something where you were like right i'm stopping everything or did you just know i've got to cut back so i during covid was like i need to just sort out how i'm living my life a bit like i can't eat burgers every day and that takeaways four or five times a week because i literally at that point couldn't because i weren't open um that's a real begin again i just want to say this i want to say this is like a big thing there's loads of things here where you i can see you have made a conscious decision right okay i'm gonna do this is a rebirth but but being reborn during covid i think quite a few people will identify with that but anybody that is living there's so much online you know when you're not leading a healthy life for you yeah you know all of the things that we should be doing to or could be doing to help ourselves feel better but you did it yeah but also i think that was down to so covid i wasn't like i'm going to come become sober over covid i still had a drink here i said i like you know um but then what had happened we've been told that we couldn't have a job like that wasn't going to happen and then during lockdown the nurse who'd been with caffeine the whole time oh yeah through that she got in touch and she was like look i don't know if you looked you know at surrogacy she was there when she found out she was such she to this day is one of the most incredible people and is she still a friend yeah yeah yeah and someone that's just such a special human and like completely restored your faith in humanity yes and she was like yeah um i'm like uh look if you've ever thought about surrogacy and we didn't really thought about at the time and are you are you you're what you're saying is she actually offered offered and then yeah so she was like i've thought about doing it for a while and she had children and incredible lady and so we went and met her in a park because you had to meet outside and then we were like let's all try and give this a go and all of a sudden this little hope kicks into your life and the big eye-opener for me is that we then got out of lockdown and it was a bit like i sort of slipped into we had the big football tournament i went to every game i was like you know like back drink it but i sort of enjoy it i was enjoying it less and less and and we were going through all this stuff and it was quite stressful and i came out the back of that and then we were i remember going to get like you know checkups and stuff men's sort of role in that it's very small competitive women the ivf is like injections you know it's very you know intrusive we've just literally got to go and knock one out in a room um it's sort of but i tried to give that as much like oh yeah god this is the biggest one can i ever have um the most important Yeah, this is my World Cup final.

49:10But we went and then I remember literally getting on, like they did a health check and I got on some scales and it was like, you're seriously obese. And it was that moment of going, okay, right, okay. And my weight had gone up again. And I was just like, and she was like, you know, if you're going to have a kid, you know, you're sort of getting on now a little bit. You don't want to be that unhealthy. So you were in your 40s. Yeah, and then I was like, oh, shit, this isn't just really about me anymore. And then so within the next Christmas, we started the journey of the IVF and the surrogacy. I really want to ask you about Catherine because you said something about her.

49:46I love her. Yeah. Already. Like everything you say about her is making me like her more and more. She's a very amazing human. She gave you a lot of rain, like to do what you wanted. Yeah. Go love the football because I know you love the football. Yeah. Do you think that really helped you make your own decision? she wasn't moaning at you going oh no oh you've got to do this you've got to do that like we've got to have a baby i should say the moment i knew that i was like i love them on it like was she like i remember being out at a party when we were first together and she just moved to london and i got home and it was like 7 a.m and she was getting ready to go to work and i was like you know i walked in and she just gave me a look and i went oh so she went don't say sorry but just so you know i'm not a mug and if you do that again i won't be here when you get back and i was i never did that i was like okay cool i know what made you know well she gave you a boundary yeah yeah and i from there i was like don't get me wrong i still went drunk but he was like you don't take the piss out of me because and then what i love about it yeah yeah like she just said a bit yeah there was no like didn't punish you no no no no no there was no like you know yeah that was she was like i'm not i'm not here to and my mum said about her very early on she was like she's you know but you need that and that it is like that is there i was like oh oh this is this is the match really that I need in my life.

51:06This is the thing that, you know, and I think you endeavour. She's going to be good for me. Yeah, and you endeavour to keep each other happy and become a good team. It's a very interesting, you know, and then when you go through something like surrogacy and go through a lot of the stuff that we've been through, we've been through like having no money and all that stuff early on in my career and her support of me working three jobs so I could go and do stand-up and follow my dreams and then hopefully give her like, you know, that back of going like, you know, because then she was doing jobs she hated and I was like, what do you want to do?

51:35and she was like, I've always wanted to be a seamstress. So she went to London School of, like, College of, I don't know, it's King's College, and she was, like, learning there to become a seamstress. Brilliant. So she now does that. So she does the things she wants to do. I do, you know, but that's all through supporting each other. You've supported each other in your journeys. And I think, so when it came to, like, becoming a dad, and after all that, I was like, you know what, like, when you talk about beginning again, I was like, Grace being born is going to be the thing that has certain elements of me has to change.

52:11Like, Caffoon's fine with me going out and having a drink and all that and getting in at two in the morning. But am I fine with, like, my hangovers will get harder. And I was like, I don't want my, I don't want, like, I feel so blessed to be becoming a dad. I don't want any wasted mornings. I don't want a waste of time where I'm, like, not getting up and playing with my daughter. Like, in what we do, like, I can be away for, like, two or three weeks. so every morning that I get up and I'm like Grace's in bed with us and I'm messing around with her and you're playing with her toys or whatever that's a blessing, that's a blessing I never thought I'd have so that was like I have to treat that with the respect it's deserved and that part of me now that's the thing I had to get rid of, that's the thing because I need to be fitter, I need to be healthier and I make all the wrong choices when I'm drunk and I make all the wrong choices when I'm hungover so the obsession and also something clicked in my head of like going at that time as well my godmother and she was like one of the most important people in my life she was an amazing person she was one of she taught me how to read she was one of the people along with my mum she was like a teacher she was an incredible human being she was probably the kindest person I've ever known in my life and had an awful awful like one of the worst like cancer just boom and like you wiped her out and it was terrible and she lucky enough she got to meet Grace and that's the thing that I'm so happy for you're pleased but I look at that and thought I have to go back to stand up as well I had to because I put such a demon such a and along with Flo being like you can do this you know but just be you again sort of in a funny kind of way for her yeah yeah for Grace for my for me going it's not life and death this and that's what it was before it was every common steps on stage it was like so and so might be there this might be the last gig I might not be good enough tonight I'm interested in but for anybody that's got a bit of anxiety or anybody that is would be looking to do the thing they've always wanted to do and they're too scared to go for it like and you just said oh I didn't feel like that anymore I didn't feel like it was life or death but how what what do you think it was in your life that changed because I think like ultimately becoming a dad was like the most important thing yeah like that's the thing and I like nothing else mattered yeah but also in a weird way of going like the amount of pressure that i'd put on this thing and but i i really loved like i should i love stand up i love that it gave me the chance to do what i do now but i didn't really and it's in a weird way i didn't want to have something sitting on my back for the rest of my life that was something i was scared of i was like that's just sitting here all the time and i know i can do it i'm not you know so i i was like that became the thing that i was like you know i'm gonna go and try and it was a bit insane because i'm then having a child and i'm going back to doing i mean there's a lot going on there right can i just quickly ask you what was the first gig back like and how did you feel after it it was like i'd literally turned up i i'd done some warm-ups for romesh and romesh was like he was getting ready for a massive tour and i was just doing i was in 10 minutes at the top and romesh was like fuck hell this is very much about you uh but was very romesh was a big driver and me going back on stage and as was flow from off the curb but it was like i went up with very little in my head apart from right let's just try this this and this and and and it went and it went well and and that moment you're like oh shit this feels like that i feel that person again that i felt when i started and felt like an overwhelming feeling of like like just relief like oh shit i can do this again but loved it and then subsequently from that it's become the thing that I adore I love doing and from the moment like then but then Catherine Catherine had come to see me at this gig in front of like eight people in Brighton and it had gone really really badly and I'd like it was awful and she never came to watch me so when she came to watch me at the O2 on the tour and like I've never been so nervous to have anyone in the audience I was fucking you know and one because I love her also had a lot of material about her, Davina, I was too sure how she'd feel about it.

56:25So she came with friends. She's there and she's like, good luck, babe, and all that. And I'm like, all right, this one's for her. I'm going to smash this, yeah. And then it gets the interval, I come off stage, and I'm like saying to Flo, like, did you see Catherine? Was she laughing? She was like, I didn't see her. And then I'm like, and I'm texting Catherine, and I was like, you okay? She didn't text back. No answer. And then I'm like, oh, my God. Oh, no. She hates it. And I'm just sitting there thinking she's not enjoyed this. she's not enjoying it and then um and he's like literally got to you know like 20 minute interval and you're like 18 minutes yeah flow's like she'll be fine it's well you've got to go like that's the bulk of the show then i've got to go and do an hour and i'm like and then um antonia who's like amazing big part of the team come in and she's like i said i just saw katherine at the bar she's having a white laugh if she was on the rose and then she texts me just as i was getting ready to go and she went that was amazing i'm so so proud of you and then you're like boom and then went out and and had a it was so much fun but like that moment of having her there for that journey that like her support everything that she gives me is is you know it's really like nice yeah it was an incredible thing to have that that you know her there and now it's like you know she's been to a few more but um and like you know it's amazing thing of like when you're you know i've got amazing pictures now where grace has been to shows and she's before the show come and held I mean she's a little performer I don't know how you are I look at Grace I'm like I've got mates who are sports people and they talk about their kids you might have to think well look at Grace sometimes and she's like a little performer she's there's something in like James said it really early on went to England we're all filming that in Gran Canaria and went to this bar to watch England and Grace is in this bar and she's like she it's a really boring game it's nil nil and Grace starts doing this I can't remember what it was it was like you're making the sounds you know the horns oh yeah yeah yeah pretending she's doing a horn and all these England fans start laughing and then she she loved it over and over and she's like and James was like she knows that what she's doing is funny and it's making yes and she's got that thing yeah and you're like oh god no because she'd be a Nepo but it's a beautiful thing to see like you know and also I mean she's a very sassy little thing it's my favourite thing she's got a bit about her which I worry about but I think I think that's character.

58:44Yeah. And that's confidence. Yeah. And that's what you've given her. I also just would like to talk to you a bit about... This is, by the way, such a lovely... I just feel like, number one, two people... Do you have any ADHD? No. Well, I don't know. I mean, probably. I don't know. I would say... I've literally got no idea where we're going to go to next. It feels like the perfect... For two sober people, this is probably the closest I've been to having a beer and a chat in a long time. So are you drinking at all? No, no. Like, I might... So you're not like AA. No, no, but... But you really don't drink.

59:21No, but also I knew that, like, there was a lot of different reasons. There was a lot of different sort of, like, becoming very acutely aware of what anxiety was, how my mental health would be derailed from alcohol. From, like, poor decision-making or just not being... not just sometimes not being a person you want to be so i i went to meetings but for me it was like going i'm just going to try this like this way yeah for the moment i've had like a couple of times where i've had like i we went on like a lads weekend and the first night there i sort of peer pressure got to me and i had a few beers and i actually thought really that was probably the lowest point of it and i hated myself for having beers and and everyone around and i and i got sort of bullied because there was a sort of thing that everyone else around me seemed to be like why aren't you and I almost like they felt offended by the fact I wouldn't have a drink oh my god I have that all the time and then I and I sort of fell into this thing of going oh maybe I'll have a couple of beers and then just having this sort of waking up the next morning just hating myself for it and not liking the person and then just thinking actually I'm strong and that's the thing that for me is like I noticed that there's a difference when you talk about how beginning in again i looked at for moments like that of going i'm not going to sink by this i know where i'm at and there's a strength about me now that as a dad because it's not really about me anymore it's about her and it's about my wife that's the that's that's everything so i wake up the next morning from there and i'm like well you know what i've let myself down i've kind of let them down a bit because i didn't want to do that but it just means today i'm not going to drink it's just that And for the rest of the time, you know, as boring as it sounds, they would all go out.