Trinny Woodall: Why I Finally Stopped Compromising

27:22There is something where if everyone helps you or puts you in, I remember my parents sold a table at auction to pay for my rehab. And I heard about that table for two years. You know, they would always talk about that table they'd had to sell. And I just, it was a good table. But I knew I would have to, so I sold, I had some jewelry I'd inherited and I sold the jewelry. And I paid for my own rehab. I think what happened to me, age 26, is I thought, because I felt I'd lived a whole fucking life, okay. You had. And I felt I have to, for the first time, take responsibility of myself and do this for me.

27:59So that first step was doing it. And I spent a year in rehab. I did seven months at Palm Place and six months in Western Super fucking nightmare. It's quite funny. We've just got to explain that people in recovery that go to Western Supermare call it Western Super nightmare. Yeah, Western Super nightmare. I'm so sorry. I really apologize for people who live in what might be now a glorious Western Supermare. It is a gorgeous place if you're not in treatment. I was in treatment and it was just, I remember I think I lived on 13 pounds a week and that went on cigarettes. And then I worked in a garden center in January outside.

28:40Just like I remember always just being freezing and you've got the wind and the sea and just, you know, and then I worked a bit in an old people's home. and it was very I then came back to London and it was that feeling and we know this this conversation when you feel everything has been stripped back from you so much and you have to build it up again you have to really for the first time age 27 by now discover who am I and who do I want to be and I think if I wind this movie forward for a second to the Trini Tribe on Facebook and Instagram. Can I just quickly ask you something? So this is your community.

29:19Yeah. How many people are in there now? A few hundred thousand. I mean. Yeah. But this is this thing. That is so important to me is to ask ourselves as women, who do we want to be today for ourselves? not who does our mother, sister, daughter, husband, partner want us to be. And I spent so many years trying to be what all these people in my life felt I should be or I felt they felt I should be. And so to have that choice and to develop that in myself of who do I actually want to be was something I felt when we, you know, all these people start this community separately. But there is this, I think the premise for me, the most important thing for a woman is to figure out how can I decide who I want to be for myself today?

30:18And so that place, especially during COVID, when people felt they were living in family environments and feeling so lonely, is how could I actually have a place where, you know, get online. Trini's having a chat. Sorry, I talked about myself in third person. I'm chatting with these ladies, but we're talking about these subjects. We're talking about who do you want to be today? And that does then transmit in get dressed, wear color, put on makeup, do your hair, decide to look after your body. Think about what menopause might be for you. How do you I don't want to grow all fucking gracefully. I want to have so much energy in my life.

30:56You know, these are things I want for me. and I really, the passion that probably drives me every single day is to, I spent many years in my life, Davina, compromising and being something for other people and I don't anymore. I don't for one millimetre, even to the extent where some family relationships couldn't get their head around it, you know. And it's the most freeing thing I have done for myself. You know when you've got that little idea in the back of your mind, something that you think, you know what, I might do that one day and then life gets kind of busy and it just sort of stays there.

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33:37I actually really love reading those, it's one of my favourite parts of the week and the really fun bit is I will also share some begin again secrets like what guests we've got coming up and you'll know before anyone else does. Shh, don't tell everyone. So come and join the best gang ever. The link's right below and it just takes five seconds and it's free. Eczema is unpredictable but you can flare less with Epglyss, a once-monthly treatment for moderate to severe eczema. After an initial four-month or longer dosing phase, about four in ten people taking EBCLIS achieved itch relief and clear or almost clear skin at 16 weeks.

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34:46Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with EBCLIS. Before starting EBCLIS, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. Ask your doctor about EBCLIS and visit ebglis.lily.com or call 1-800-LILY-RX or 1-800-545-5979. What I think is interesting is you started talking about the community and this idea of what do I want to wear? What do I want to look like? Who do I want to be? How do I want to be perceived? Or not be perceived because it's not about how other people see you. It's how I want to be myself.

35:18It's how you feel about yourself. What you've taught me is that how you look if you're on your own and you're not going to see anyone all day still matters. It does. And it doesn't have to be posh or expensive. No. It's like you're such an advocate for the thought you put into yourself matters, right? Yeah. It has to flow. It has to bring you joy. It has to make you feel. You know, there are days I want to wear black. And, you know, Lila and I watch that really trashy, the love story. So we kind of want to, you know, be Carole and Bissette Kennedy or whatever, you know, for a second. But I also want to, I just this weekend changed my wardrobe because my wardrobe is my office.

36:02So I see it every day and it's about the clutter and decluttering of my brain. It's very psychological, but I'm surrounded by my clothes when I work from home. I'm mainly in an office, but just in the evening and firstly in the morning, I'm there doing stuff. And I realized I want it to be a bit calmer, but I also want more color in there because black can drain. So I want to bring this sense of life and energy into how I dress. And that does change how I am. It gives me a brightness inside myself. And then I want to have great skin because I want to wear minimal makeup. And I want that just to enhance that wellness.

36:42I want people to feel that. And this is actually a reaction. My mother would say probably every other day, you look so tired. Literally every other day. All right. My mother would say only moms can do that. And I used to that's when we talked about this thing about my mom sticking up for me. then when she would say things like that, I would get this burning anger inside me around my mum. And it just, it was challenging my relationship with my mother. But it stemmed from so much more. The one sentence meant so much more. You know, it went back to, so when I was sick and you look so tired. So for me, it was the most important thing when I wake up in the mirror.

37:25What do I do so I don't look tired? It's like referring back to when you weren't well. Yeah. And what do I do so I don't look tired? And so whether that's supplements I take, whether that's jumping up and down like a bunny every morning, whether it's slapping myself, whatever it might be, I want to then feel that energy in the mirror in my reflection. Because a lot of women I have learned from doing What Not to Wear and other shows around the world for 20 years is how many women are uncomfortable looking in a mirror. How many homes I went into where a woman wouldn't have a mirror apart from just for her face.

37:59Okay, which says a lot about not wanting to look at yourself. So whatever your size or height or whatever it is that you feel uncomfortable with, how can you look at your face and love yourself and love your face? And that's just about, you know, giving energy to your face and lightness to your eyes and life in your face. And if you see your face and you say, I have a life in my face, it makes such a difference because it makes you be able to say, I can do anything today. If you catch sight in the mirror and you think, I look so tired, you know, first of all, it takes a 50-year-old statement, you know, to be reiterated and reinforced.

38:41But I don't want to look tired. I think, you know, you were talking about your community and then you were talking about you as a 26-year-old. and that girl that was ready to get clean and then meeting Susanna, all of that kind of time. What year would that have been? I met Susanna, I got clean in 1990 and I was 26. And then I met Susanna in probably 90, maybe 94, 95. I did a couple of jobs before. And she was a journalist. She wrote about women's cricket in The Telegraph because she was at the time having an affair with a cricketer. And so she did that. But what's so funny is you've come from, she was doing kind of quite a masculine talking about cricket.

39:43Yes, she was. You were coming from the city. Yeah. And too ballsy. I mean, when you two met, was it like I've literally fallen in love? No, it was like we were like sniffing dogs who didn't like each other. Oh, really? We met. That's so funny. I went to a dinner party at her boyfriend's house. And she was obviously there. And we met. And I remember we didn't talk much. And we were like two male sniffing dogs around each other. And then we had a very close friend who was our mutual best friend. and she had had us both sort of whinging about not being happy in our career and wanting to do other things.

40:16And at the time I had this idea for this column that would be sort of what's great and what isn't great. And I'd always loved, I always had girls ended up in my bathroom and ended up in my wardrobe and I was always restyling. No one was really doing that. It wasn't. It was like you had, you kind of bought from M &S or Kukai. Yeah. Or designer. Yeah. And that was it. There was no Zara. There was no Mango. There was no Massimo Dutti. There was none. There was H &M maybe, but I don't even remember H &M then. Not even like the H &M today. So Vogue would take a sample from Warehouse, put it in Vogue as their tokenism to High Street, but they wouldn't ever make the sample up.

40:55So it's like, you know, mum took you into St. Michael's. It wasn't M &S then. St. Michael's for your things. Or you got a special treat and you were given something nice. So it was how could we then find this middle ground? And then could you just look at dressing different price points and different body shapes? So Susanna and I are very different body shapes. And so she then, we had coffee and she said, you know, can you, we got on well at that coffee and we both had a good chat. But then she called me the next day and said, can I take your idea? So Susanna. So I said, no, we can do it together.

41:35and then we built this business up we raised money really quickly and then two and a half years later we had to close it and it was traumatic because I became a chronic workaholic I was trying to have a baby but I wasn't thinking about that I worked 16 hours a day Susanna was having babies I call her in the morning if she wasn't there by 8 30 say where are you and she say I'm breastfeeding Joe and I go well what time will you be in you know it was that kind of we were on such different paths by then and but this is before we did telly but I love building the team I didn't feel qualified to do anything so I hired very good people in but they were they were people who then gave a direction of what they felt the business should do and we'd been invested in by what was our idea so the idea evolved it dot-com bust happened because you had this bubble in between Between 99 and 2001.

42:29And then you had the recession after. So it was a time when I learned a lot about what I wouldn't do by that. But at the end of that, I was flawed. I was running on empty. Susanna was now having Esme, her second child. And I went off to Arizona to a place called Cottonwood. And it was a rehab. But they had these things called inner path workshops. And it was one which was for people in recovery who wanted to just find out the next part of themselves. And I remember going on this cacti walk by myself. I remember it so clearly. And we're now in sort of 2000, maybe 2001. The world had decided not to end.

43:11Are you with Johnny at this point? I'm with Johnny. I'm on my eighth round of IVF and it's not working. I've had a few miscarriages. So I'm like, life is challenging. I've just lost a business. lost some babies, feeling, you know, just quite a lot going on. And for the first time ever, I looked outwardly. And you know when you entirely let go and then what is meant to come in will come in. And we always feel we do let go. But it's like when you've picked a spot, there's still the sebum to come out. And then the blood has to come. You know, you have the sebum. Can I say only you would come up with the analogy?

43:45But it is that analogy. If anyone here picks spots when they were younger, there's that kind of, I've done it, but then there's still something in there and you've got to get it out. And when I was doing the cacti walk, I got out all the sebum. You really let go. I really let go. And I just was like, you know, I have no idea what is in my future. I'd always spent my life trying to slightly control things. And I just said, I'm letting go. Whatever is meant to come into my life now, let it come in. and that was probably the time I was most in tune with no agenda because I'd had everything taken away from me and then I came back still in this state and then the BBC called two weeks later to do What Not To Wear How mad is that?

44:35So we started that and then Susanna and I started our career And it really, people always look and we're like, you were an overnight. But we had, you know, five years and then we'd have this thing. And then so, but then within two years, we had number one books and we were number one shows. And, you know, so then within three years, got lots of awards. Yeah. So it was good. And then at the same time, I was still trying to get pregnant. So that was just, I always talk about this as you sort of think it will never happen, but you think it will never not happen. You live in this limbo land. And I remember Susanna and I were doing the Oscars with Diana Sawyer in America.

45:20And we were on the red carpet. Wow. I know, it was quite cool.

45:26and Susanna had both the kids by that stage and I remember we went back I remember this so bloody clearly we would go back to the hotel room and I go in the bathroom and I'm bleeding and I think I've lost it again and Susanna was too spotting so I called up my obstetrician And I said, Tio, I'm losing another baby. And he said, just, you know, come back and then come straight to me. And I remember I got off the plane and I went to him and I lay there. And I really, you know, your expectation is so low because it's happened so much. You just assumed that it was going. Yeah. And he had this mini, it was quite rare then to have those mini ultrasounds.

46:13And I remember a mini ultrasound and we heard, and I was like, do that again. And, you know, I couldn't believe it. And then she was alive still. I know, it was like such a moment. Thirteen years. Thirteen tries. Yeah, yeah. Nine tries to have Lina and a few more after. But so that was kind of... Oh, nine for Lila. Nine for Lila. But I mean... Nine for Lila. But can I just say something? Yeah. The amount that you have to go through to try for one round... Mm. It's a lot. It's a lot. Financially and every other way. Oh, God. But it's a lot in sort of… But also emotionally, the roller coaster. Yeah.

46:59You numb it out when it's… Do you? It's like… Yeah, I remember because you did this thing, golden or F, and they… Well, then it was, you know, you did different things. But I used to have to do this injection. You do an injection for 11 days, and then you did something else for two days. And Johnny would do the injections for me because Johnny had been a paramedic, so I kind of trusted him. and then it's that kind of waiting you know it's like waiting waiting waiting but when with Lila I didn't have an IVF Johnny was away and the doctor called me up and said we've still got some of his sperm and do you want to come in and I was like what's the point you know because we've never done an IUI which is just shoving it up like a turkey baster.

47:48So we did. And then I didn't bother to, on day 11, I'd be like calling at 8.30 a.m. Can I do the blood work? And I didn't. I just, also I had bled a bit and I thought, oh, I just didn't help. And I literally, I was like, it's that cacti moment in the thing. I let go. I just let go. I just felt not happened. And then day 16, Mari calls me up and says, Trillian, why haven't you called me? And I go, because you know what? I bled a bit and I think that's, it's not happening. and I just didn't want the disappointment again. And I went in, she said, you're pregnant, you know. But it was so, I so didn't expect.

48:24I want to talk about Johnny. Do you? Yeah. Do you know what? Seeing the pictures of you two, you three, like just made my heart sing so much. Johnny, to me, was one of those characters where once met, never forgotten. I know. For two minutes you could meet him and you go, like, wow. Funny, warm, open up. Like, how did you meet and what was that like? It's so weird, Davina, because I think if it was anyone other than you, we wouldn't really be having the details of this conversation. I think for anyone listening, talking about the idea of somebody you've been with and there's been tremendous love and amazing experiences and real trauma and pain and ultimately death.

49:22You need so much time after that to be able to look back at the early times which were great because for many years because of the kind of trauma at the end, I found it really, really challenging to look back and really relish the joy of when it was great, you know. And I think now I can. So a part of me is getting this conversation feeling there's such a nostalgia for what isn't there anymore. So I find it hard. Sorry. No, it's just... It's nice to see you feel like this because it's nice to remember. It's nice to remember. And so even though I'm emotional, it's very difficult for me, and you know this about me, to feel really vulnerable about how I really felt because I have to hold things together sometimes.

50:21Yes. You know? Well, a lot, Trini. Like, you've had a big old life with a lot going on. but um so we met in a meeting and um he became my best mate and I had had best male friends before but I always been a girl's girl I've always you know my friends are mainly women but I just loved how different he was from any of my other male friends and he was so And he fucking made me laugh. Oh, my God. With Michael, I see that with you. You know, after lovely father, your children, but then not being happy and not laughing. And then Michael and you laugh so much. You know, you just do. So I think that feeling of laughing and madness, you know, there was a lot of madness.

51:12But I have to be aware, too, because in this, there's always, you know, you know, members of this whole set up. But, you know, I was I met somebody who was coming out of a marriage as well. And so for both of us at the time. Having this friendship was the best thing in the world. It was really healing for me in early recovery to be friends with somebody, because also. I never knew I stood with men before, you know, I was I felt I had bad, bad skin, but also other people saw me as an attractive person. and so I had you you kind of didn't know if somebody just wanted to be your friend I wanted people to just be my friend I was quite shy sexually so but anyway whatever we're really good mates he makes me laugh um and we did really fun stuff together and then one day we're sitting in my apartment and we're just so we've all been having you know that kind of afternoon coffee after a meeting moment.

52:16And then everyone leaves and he's there and was sitting at the end of my bed. And he goes, can I kiss you? And I am fucking horrified. And I go, why? And he goes, I said, why? We're friends, Johnny. And he goes, because I want to kiss you. And I just looked at him and then he kissed me. And I sort of felt stirrings of excitement. But we both felt so guilty because we were kind of destroying. annoying. We could never go back now to this really great friendship and it was going to have to go somewhere else. And we were both scared, you know, and so we didn't see each other for a month. We didn't see each other for months.

52:53I mean, we couldn't deal with it, both of us. So then it became complicated because there was complications and there was, you know, kind of just complications. And after about a year we then started going out together. And it was very

53:22my parents were challenged a bit by Johnny because he was very different from what we had all grown up with. He was a very different person. You know, he came from a slightly different life he took the mickey out he would be quite funny with my parents and they kind of didn't know how quite to deal with it but I sort of loved him for that because it was like I was just like he was my comrade in arms to deal with my really complicated family and I love that it's like he got it and he just got he got people very well he did he was very Yeah, got people very well. And he was very, all the things, and this is what Lila has from Johnny, is he never, ever, ever judged anyone by their accent or money or no money or job or no job.

54:11You know, he decided, do I like the character, that person or not? But more than anyone I've ever met in my life, he was that person. So he would be best friends with the weirdest people. I think that is what I, you've just made me realise what I loved him. I think it was his lack of judgement. Yeah, it was, yeah. I think as I've got older, it's one of the things I dislike the most is people who just judge people. Yeah, I agree with you. Without getting to know them. Yeah. And he never did that. Yeah. That's really interesting. So there were very good years. And like, if you look at your marriage, you know, how long were you with Matthew?

54:5020 years with him and married for 18. Yeah, so Johnny and I were 16. But in that, I can put that into phases of complication, utter joy, complication, really painful, good, disappointing death. If I do that kind of trajectory. and when Johnny was well and after we separated he was went through phases but when he was well and in recovery and he was like the best dad you know and our relationship as parents of Lila when he was well was fantastic it was really like the best it could be in terms of he was a phenomenally you know when when Johnny was well he was a phenomenally good parent Well, when he had the resources.

55:47When he had the resources, when he had the mental capacity.

55:54After you guys split up, it wasn't like you didn't speak. I mean, there was no animosity, really. It felt like an incredibly amicable split in a way, even though it must have been a very difficult time for you. But you still spoke all the time like Lila was. Yeah, I think with any, when you separate, there's a reason you separate and there's a moment when it's challenged and there were challenges and there were really tough challenges but then Johnny sorted himself out and then we had a healthy relationship and on and off, you know, depending on how things were. When Johnny was 50, he took his own life and there will be many people sadly this isn't a unique experience for people biggest killer of men the biggest killer 50 is suicide and having spoken obviously getting to um our age we've got lots of friends who either are approaching or going through or have been through we've gone through this phase of our life but there'll be people listening who are either heading towards it or in it.

57:11And it is a little bit like you were talking about what do you want. Michael talks about this a lot with men, of like getting to an age where you realise that you never achieved what you wanted, and that being the crisis. And, you know, you went through something with Johnny which will help other people who potentially either have gone through something similar to you or it may have just happened to them and you're you know 11 years down the line how how are you now and how did you handle it back then I mean it was um it was such a shock but maybe not I don't know how I think that But I've learned a lot about suicide since then.

58:03And I've, you know, worked with some charities that do things like suicide. And so I think I've just learned about people who really, really want to kill themselves don't talk about it that much, you know. And people who talk about it, it's a cry for help. But I think there's this window when somebody could choose not to make that decision. It's a really small window, and that's why you have places like James's Place and different charities where they try and... And I've had one or two people who I've known or they're a friend of a friend, and I've helped them get to James's Place. Tell us what James's Place is.

58:47It's a charity for men who might be contemplating suicide. and unlike the Samaritans there's a centre so a centre in London and they have a centre they're just opening outside

59:07but they do certain things that I think are very helpful so you have to kind of fill something in which is challenging I think you need to make it as quick as possible that somebody could talk to somebody and see somebody but anyway there's this point by which you're sitting down and you have this deck of cards it's a really interesting way of doing it And it's sort of dealing out your cards of life. So one is if you live and one is if you die. And I think that people get to a place in suicide or make a decision to kill themselves because they feel it's the least selfish thing they could do for the people in their life to remove themselves from that life.

59:48That's nobody gets to a place where they don't have that thought. I think that is an overriding thought. I need to just remove myself. The world would be better without me in it. Yeah. And it could be many different circumstances that lead them there. But I think that's what it is. So there were times earlier when I was slightly worried for Johnny. And I remember I spoke to friends and they said, whatever Johnny decides to do, there is nothing you can actually do about it. Yes. You know, there's got to be a shift in Johnny for Johnny. Because I had tried lots of things. I had, you know, tried to be supportive financially or not supportive financially to, you know, just lots of things.

1:00:38And whatever I tried, I tried everything, I think, Davina. And you question yourself when somebody dies, did I try enough? And I think that wasn't something I stayed awake at night thinking about because I just I didn't by that stage. I also think that there is a lot of things in recovery that help you handle really, really tough moments in your life. Going to meetings gives you some tools. Knowing that you have no control over someone else is helpful. But I also, you know, wanted to ask you about how you navigated losing the father of your beautiful daughter.

1:01:39Because then suddenly you are alone. You are a single parent. There's so many different aspects to it. Yeah, there's so many different aspects. She's lost a dad. But I think everyone has a slightly different kind of practical things that will happen that will affect them and emotional things. So on practical things, if they've been the main breadwinner and they die, there's a lot of financial fallout as well. And that's incredibly worrying as well as if you have children, my father, my kids no longer have a father. So there's that kind of how am I going to live? There's the real financial burden.

1:02:19And I had that in a different way that Johnny left debts and I had to pay the debts. And as a result, you know, ultimately I sold my house to start my business and pay those debts. Yes. And so that fallout of having to manage a lot of the things that happened as a result stopped me grieving for a while. That's one thing I'd say, because there was so much I had to kind of be the main family person. Right. You know, because, you know. You had a mess to clean up. I had a bit of a mess to clean up. Not saying that he left you a mess, but it's just how it. It was just the fallout. So there's that. And then there's sort of you, when someone kills themselves as opposed to just dying, people ask different questions, you know, as well.

1:03:07Yes, I hadn't thought about that. So I remember at, because I think you came to Johnny's memorial, but at the funeral, somebody said like a eulogy at the funeral. And I didn't love it. Like I felt they said things that shouldn't have been said three days after he died. and I told them about two weeks ago you know the person, I told them about two weeks ago and I said by the way I need to let you know I didn't love what you say at Johnny's funeral and I got it out but I got it out 12 years later How did you talking about that it helped you because you held on to it for 12 years I hadn't held on to it at the time I remember thinking I don't think you should have said that and then at the memorial three people talked about Johnny and they talked about it beautifully because they didn't leave an elephant in the run the fact he killed himself but they didn't they balanced the man you know and it was candid and heartfelt and they'd known for many years hadn't just known him in recovery yeah you know so there was a whole life to it and it was really beautiful and you know I they were really fantastic words um but the things that helped me are Julia Samuel because she wrote a book called Grief Works and she was a really good friend of my sister and the day that Johnny died she came around to the house so she gave me the words she gave me a framework in which to you know explain to an 11 year old child what had happened please would you say what she told you to say because I thought this was so brilliant so she said say that he's had a heart attack in his head and it was just it's such a I read that for the first time learning about you and this whole experience and I thought what a great way of explaining it yeah yeah it's like a good old therapy session let me just tell you I can I just tell you I'm so uh thank you it feels really special to me to be able to be with you and go through something like this with you so thank you Me too.

1:05:15Yeah. I'm still kind of like blown away by everything that you were going through at one time in your life because you were talking about selling your house, not just to pay off debts, but to start a business. And it's like, which makes me think of when women get pregnant and then they go, and we're going to move. And we're going to do everything at once. When we're pregnant, we do everything at once. You know, you'd gone through this huge trauma, but at the same time, Trini London is born. Yeah. Like, because you were starting that before. Am I right in saying before you died? But were you at this sort of point of encountering horrific problems trying to get off the ground because trying to explain dewy, lovely, healthy skin for over 35 year olds to a bunch of male investors is so hard.

1:06:08That was very hard. But I think that I was 50. Johnny was actually 53 when he died. Oh, was he? Yeah. You were 50? I was 50. Or 49 maybe. I can't remember 49 or 50. I think I was maybe 49.

1:06:30I wasn't working so much. Residue income was drying up. I knew I wanted to start the business. Johnny died. There was a lot of stuff to deal with. And even though lots of advice was just going to get a regular job, that's why I thought, what would I do? I didn't know. I was also, I really just had this now or never. I really had it to be. It was like I knew I had to do it and I knew it would be challenging and it was challenging because nobody that I went, I mean, I first of all sort of bootstrapped in and then I did a clothing sale in my house because I knew I was going to have to rent my house out because I couldn't afford the mortgage and the mortgage was changing.

1:07:12It was the end of a term and then I wasn't on the same salary so they weren't going to give me the same mortgage and I thought I'm not going to be able to afford the house. Then I was fighting in court that I should be liable for Johnny's debts and I was paying lawyers' bills and then I had to ultimately pay. Starting the business, I needed some money. So it was like all shit was going on. Whilst trying to navigate Johnny. Yeah. Yeah. So my decision was I've got to do it. Yeah. It just was I've got to do it. I had to do it. There was no alternative. I had to do it. When we have ideas inside our head, they're safe, Tavina.

1:07:51You know, we don't have to execute on them. We can live the fantasy of them. We can sit down next to somebody at dinner and talk about our idea. It gives us a raison d 'etre. It makes us feel significant and relevant. But we're never taking it outside our head. So it's safe. We never have to feel failure, but we never see success. And at some stage, you have to take it out of your head. So for me, I think things have to become pulled away from you, like my moment in Cottonwood, but just that sense of you have to be, it's so raw that there's no superficial reasoning to prevent you from actually making the fucking decision and doing it.

1:08:32That's the thing. So that's, it was like everything came together. And that was then the catalyst. And then whatever challenges, there were challenges that came in. I, you know, I did many meetings, many people said no, many people said, love the idea, but digital, any woman over 35 won't understand how to buy makeup online, and they won't understand the personalization you want to create. And it should be for a Gen Z. And I was like, no, because Gen Z's is a ton of brands that have no emotional significance, that don't understand those women, that have models who look like they're 20. No, no, you know, but it took me a long time to convince people.

1:09:10When did you go, OK, holy shipples, like this is really happening? How many years in did you think, oh, my God? I started in 2000 and the end of 2017. So 2018 was my first full year. 2020 went into COVID. So I'd been trading two and a bit years. And there were a lot of women who loved what we were doing but shopped in store. And then when COVID came, we were the only people who had personalization. Nobody else did. Even like Tilbury and all these others, they were retail first. So they hadn't built for online. Retail was their, you know, online was their secondary business. But for us, you had matched to me.

1:09:56You could put my skin, hair and eye in. You could tell us about yourself and then we will give you the right products. And so women did. And we went from and we've had 1.7 million customers. But we started with, you know, maybe we had 150 ,000 customers. By the time we came out of COVID, we had had 700 ,000 customers or something, you know. So I think then after COVID, you had some people who then wanted to just go back to store and buy. Yes. But we had enough women who thought, I didn't know if I should trust. I had to trust because of the circumstance of COVID. And then they told their friends, just trust.

1:10:37It actually will tell you what you suit. And then we did skincare, which I'd always was like my biggest passion. Skincare is now bigger than makeup. Wow. Is it really? It's more revenue than makeup for us. It's like 51 % to 49%. Wow. And I've been obsessed. So we had our own lab. We didn't just get it made by somebody else. You know, I'm very involved in every ingredient that goes in and what sugar, you know, I'm kind of obsessed. I do read a lot of clinical trial research papers. I'm really looking at what's just a fad and what actually can shift skin. You know, there's now ingredients that can act as signals to make things go deeper in your skin to actually work.

1:11:16So the way in, you know, there are women we have in our 50s who think skincare is what they tried in their 20s and 30s. So they don't think it would do much. But science has come along so far that you can make molecule sizes smaller. They can go deeper. You can use tools like microneedles to put products in deeper. You can actually shift your skin. You don't have to, you know, have a face. I don't believe you have to have a facelift. You can have a facelift. You can do Botox. You do whatever you like. Whatever you like. I think we get to an age. I've had Botox since 35. Philly boots. Yeah, fill your boots.

1:11:46But the fundamental thing of healthy-looking skin with a great texture comes from skincare. And healthy-looking skin is anti-aging in the... Don't say the word anti-aging. Oh, go on. Tell me, what do I say? I wouldn't say pro-aging either. I would just say, I think... Euthifying. It's the perception. Oh, yes. We should want to look younger. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, because I think... I have these people on social who might say, why can't you age gracefully? Because I put a lot of effort into being well, you and I, fitness, supplements, skin, everything. All right. So I think it's about I think it's actually more to do with menopause, because I feel that we have been many years where, you know, we didn't talk about menopause.

1:12:38then we talked about menopause. I went into menopause 17 years ago, so I've been researching it for a long time. But I do believe in it that our bodies traditionally would be a certain age at 14, you're fertile, have babies, then hit menopause, and then slowly die because all of those hormones are coming out of your system and you will age, you will accelerate your aging. Men are slightly different, but they have andropause. But the idea for me is should I go against that natural biological determination? Fuck yes. And should I have all the estrogen, testosterone, progesterone until I'm in my carven?

1:13:19Absolutely. There's receptors all over my body, so I should. It's not just in my ovaries. And will it make me have more energy and life and vibrancy? Yes. And therefore, do I want my skin to look good? And do I want to feel that total physical attitudinal and ascetic energy so that's why for me all of these things are important you know and i think that's the important thing that you've just said that's why all of these things for me are important but if the lady who's writing in going why don't you go gracefully if that's what you want to do then you do it and we will stand here going well done do you see i don't believe that oh you don't i don't i mean the thing is like okay mel robbins is like let them yeah oh my god i don't agree with that i don't agree with that oh my god so i'll tell you what i feel about this just for a second for this fact so i did actually go and listen to mel robbins and i even read her book and stuff um but and i I think she has a podcast with some really good guests on it.

1:14:26She is an amazing person. She's a good woman who wants to do good in the world. But this concept, let them, is an interesting one because it's sort of, we can drive ourselves to torturous illness by trying to control situations. And therefore, let them is to release in yourself that sense and that need to control. Yes. Okay, so I 100 % get that. Yeah. And it's like with our children, everything we can come and just let go. But I think when I see women who comment negatively, it reminds me of when Susanna and I did What Not to Wear. And we were in situations where sometimes we had a whole load of people to choose from.

1:15:11I always know because I have a little I am slightly psychic of knowing who was the most challenging person in the room for me to make over who needed it the most. I always knew who that person was. And when I read my DMs and sometimes I go from primary to general to the weird requests where I'll always look there because there's somebody who always wants to get in touch. And I feel sometimes when I scroll through and I'll open the 50th and there's thousands that will come in, there's a reason that my finger would click on that. So if I then see a woman saying, oh, why can't you old age gracefully?

1:15:46I actually write back and I say, I want you to ask yourself what triggered in you when you saw that. And ask yourself what makes you feel uncomfortable about what you see and why. Because you need to ask yourself that. And that's the messages I leave. and I'd never do it on the public Instagram because I think that's insulting, but I will do it on a DM because I do feel, or like even at the weekend, somebody did one that I screen grabbed actually, but I was wearing a plastic belt and I loved it. It brought me such joy and it was so obvious when I was putting it on this weird big peplum belt that I loved.

1:16:32I'd seen on something, that's mad, but that would challenge me, challenge how I dress. You know, I love to continue to be challenged. And this woman said, I mean, that was just clickbaity and you have responsibility to women. And it was a disservice to women of what you did. I mean, it was so aggressive. And I wrote back and I said, I dress to bring myself joy. Yeah. So what did you find difficult? You know, what you found difficult. And I took her name away, put a little cloud there. And I posted it on my stories. because I wanted her to see it. I didn't want to reveal who she was, but I wanted her to see it.

1:17:13And I've never done that before. And I don't know if I would do it again because I think it's something that should be private. Somebody's DM'd you privately, but they wrote those words for a reason. And sometimes it's much easier for us to leave well alone the people who we feel are tormented in life. But I have a fucking beacon towards them, and it's for a reason. And I will know that in some instances I might shift somebody's perception of themselves or make them look at something that they found challenging to look at. And that's a part of the reason I'm here. I wondered if you could give me like three actionable things that women could do to help themselves.

1:18:00I want to think of new things. we do need to remove from our life people who are not there for us and I think it's a really important thing to do really hard too yeah sometimes but sometimes you just like even it's a goodbye email it's like I don't believe I bring that much to your life right now so I think for now we should just let go of our relationship and I've done that a couple of times but I think it's important I think the other thing for me, and it's a really difficult one because it's something I say a lot to Veena and then we haven't done that today. But 90 % of the time I live in the present and the future and I don't live in the past because I believe there's so much more to come.

1:18:48And I think when I speak to people who are in their mid-60s, who talk more about the past, it's because they don't have things to look forward to in their life today or in the future. It's not just lovely nostalgia. What we did today was beautiful nostalgia, memories that are really important to remind myself of because it's so important to remember why I got married to Johnny, why I loved him, why we wanted to have Lila. All these things are so important to hold on to, and especially for Lila. I want, you know, Lila to understand how much Johnny and I loved each other, and that's really important for her to know.

1:19:22So, yes, to talk about that. But so think about what you live in the most. That's a really important thing. Do you live in the present and the future? And when you live in the future, this thing which I do say a lot, but it's 99 % of everything we think about doesn't happen. The amount of time we dedicate to worry can really affect our body. It can really affect our mental state of mind. It can really affect our relationship with other people. And I have to continuously remind myself of this. And I will sometimes get really carried away by over worrying. and then if you spent a week, this is a thing you could do.

1:20:03Wake up and just, you know how people do gratitude lists, do the opposite. You wake up with worry. What's that worry? What's that worry? Write down every single worry, every single worry. Like I'm worried I won't get the bus. I'm worried the food will burn. I'm worried my daughter won't call me back. I'm worried I'm going to, everything. And see how many of them actually were true at the end of the week. Yes. You know, that would be a good exercise. And what an absolute waste of time that is. And how much time. And how much time. Yeah, that's all I'm going to give you today. Okay. Well, I'm going to end there.

1:20:35I mean, if you're saying that's all you're going to give us, that was a lot. Trini, everyone. Davina, everyone. Oh, my God. Trini, that was fucking brilliant. So just in case you missed this episode here, if you love this episode, I know you're going to love that.

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