S*x Sells - The Million pound agency | Behind The Growth with Emma Gillman

0:00Whatever you do to get your money, like, I just don't respect it.

0:02Laura Donadio: And I was like, what is it that you don't respect? And he's like, you know, I think the industry is really gross and bad. And I was like, do you watch porn? I was about to say. I guess what I'm known for is the personal brand and strategy of the most famous OnlyFans creators. You touched on being taken seriously. The fact is, the girls who work with me, for the most part, are making a minimum of six figures a month. They are raking it in. Lily Phillips is one of my clients and she genuinely loves it. She said it to me like genuinely this could make me no money and I would still do it and I like it.

0:34If you want the real gory details there's been another time where I have been in the other room. Everyone should try it once it's absolutely weird. invite me next time I know you're sitting in the next room like cup of tea women's sexuality has always been monetized it's just not usually women who are doing that I'm Emma I'm the founder of the siren group a PR agency for the top one percent of adult creators and businesses and this is behind

0:58Laura Donadio: the growth so the first question is what are you known for and if you want to just start with a little bit of an intro on who you are. I'm Emma. I'm the founder of The Siren Group, which is a PR agency for the top 1 % of creators. That's kind of what I say publicly if I'm doing my PR-able response. But I guess what I'm known for is the personal brand and strategy of the most famous OnlyFans creators. So I help make OnlyFans creators celebrities, basically. That, I would is part of it. I also used to be a journalist when I was in Australia. I was a writer, so people might know me for that. Yeah, I'm a bit of a slashy.

1:43And I think the main thing would definitely be the very big, exciting personal brands of, yeah, adult content creators, which is a fun one at a dinner party to talk about.

1:57Laura Donadio: Can't wait to dive into it. You started in Australia. Talk to us about your journey what did you start doing how did you get here what happened yeah so I'm born in Australia Sydney born and raised never really thought that I would want to leave Australia I was very comfortable there I mean it's beautiful I don't know if you've ever been to Australia but I was quite satisfied and happy there but I have clients from all over the world and that just kind of happened by default the industry that I'm in is I guess very close to the influencer industry in the fact that you can kind of work from wherever you want.

2:34So you get a lot of digital nomads, people who had moved to Australia from all over. Once you get a reputation for doing one person's brand really well, it spreads. So I had clients in Australia, I had clients in America and then the UK as well. And I did a bit of travel with a few different clients and I very quickly realized that there's a lot more opportunity overseas. You can charge a lot more money overseas. and yeah that was kind of the kicker for me but I also have a boyfriend who's British and I went well there's the there's the thing that's really going to push me out of my Bondi bubble but yeah it's it's a very global industry and clientele so it kind of felt like the next logical move coming to the UK so I live here now.

3:20But you didn't start as a talent agent what did you do before? I was a journalist so I very fresh out of school was desperate to become a journalist went to uni studying journalism and within six weeks I got the job at the company I really wanted which was an internship but a writer for Australia's biggest women's media so that is a lot of like lifestyle-y sort of pieces a little bit of entertainment and then I kind of by default fell into the sex and relationships. Vertical was what we called them because I think at the time I would have been like 19, 20, no one really wanted to be in that vertical.

3:59There was one girl who was amazing and she was my manager and she was the best and like a really great mentor and manager, but everyone else avoided it. And I was quite happy just doing the thing that was a bit weird and different always so I ended up writing in that vertical I did a few different jobs at Mamma Mia it was like the best career move for the first job you could ever have I kind of still enjoyed the storytelling aspect and it made logical sense to go into more of a PR space where it's still storytelling finding what's interesting for an audience what people are caring about enough to click and give their attention.

4:40You can imagine everyone wants to click on the story about like a threesome gone wrong but no one is saying that they're doing it. No one's like sharing it or

4:49Laura Donadio: liking it but everyone is reading it and in the back end yeah we could see that traffic. It's sitting at the top every time and I found that really fascinating and then I guess seeing that traffic it was like how can you take it and manipulate it and get stories where people actually engage at the same time. Was it still in a time where social media was evolving? Because I started in PR like 15 years ago when it was still, you know, social media was not the way it was today. And we were really going on like websites and seeing like, yeah, as you said, like clicks and traffics, it was completely different.

5:22Yeah, I think people are surprised by we're in this really interesting era now where I think especially working with influencers, People don't realize the impact of mainstream media, but it's a lot. It's always been valuable and it's almost more valuable now that anyone can have a platform because then it's now reputation. It's credibility at the core of it. It's always just storytelling and storytelling to like familiarize an audience that might not already know a given person with them and build a bit of a cult following.

5:58Laura Donadio: yeah it's more a bit of intimacy a bit of a rage bait title and you know something that's a bit hooky right I mean I say sometimes almost all of the time I think the thing about this industry and what always really excited me about it is that people are like we're emotional and I think it's so easy to take something I wrote this article when I was freelancing for Mamma Mia so I finished up working there I was doing a few other jobs and I wrote a story about managing adult craters while I was in I'd just kind of recently started the siren group and in it I wrote about how I don't know if you're familiar with like the whole Blake Lively it ends with us thing yes so like everyone hated public drama that one yeah and for whoever's not familiar that the kind of idea was that I think during It Ends With Us, Blake Lively, the filming of that movie, her and Justin Baldoni had this falling out and it was really public.

6:59And there was these leaked texts from Justin Baldoni's publicist where I think it said something to the effect of, we don't even need to try. Like everyone just hates her. Like they were planting this story and they were like, oh my God, the media is taking this off our hands. We don't even need to do anything. And that is just a repeating you know story that happens all the time which is how can you hate the woman at the center of a story and I think the public's always kind of looking for a villain especially when it's a woman and a woman who kind of is too loud or too pushy or you know too sexual like yeah it's it's always you know too arrogant whatever it is I think too much in any sense of exactly and and And it's fascinating because this women's media company I worked for, I think the sell line was making the world a better place for women and girls.

7:57And I often get the criticism or the pushback that what I do think people perceive as not being good for women and girls. and I feel really strongly the opposite in that it's kind of taking the landscape that we're existing in where women are critiqued and it's kind of forcing people to really consider what their issue is where they draw boundaries the women are choosing to monetize their public profile they're choosing to monetize their sexuality women's sexuality has always been monetized it's just not usually women who are doing that so I'm like so excited every day seeing the conversations that start and it could be something as rage baby as slept with 100 men in a day or it could be I know I say it so casually and everyone's like that's bizarre I mean I've seen the clips I've seen the interviews I do my job well you do your job extremely well but the the alternative is like I'm a better mom because I have an OnlyFans and that pisses people off obviously I mean it makes sense but there's rage bait on every single level there's you know I've spent tens of thousand dollars getting the perfect body every single topic that we cover even when it's I guess at its core heartwarming I think I have this client who has massive boobs like she has a condition where her boobs never stop growing she was kicked out of Disneyland for wearing like a top a top that was like maybe cut here not even like a full but but sheer like the body and and they said like your inner children's you know environment and she she was like there's nothing I could be wearing there's not many worlds in which she can go on and succeed and not just succeed but become yeah yeah and also have credibility and be taken seriously and so many women are like I could never but could I and in what way could I could I do feed pics maybe like and what did that actually look like like the questions I get you know you just at a dinner table and I've met someone for the first time and like all barriers go down when you say you work in the sex industry oh I was there we asked you the questions I can and that's how we met that's how we met what was the transition obviously how did your first client

10:27Laura Donadio: And how does your first talent find you? What was that process? So it was kind of initially for writing a story on them. And then it developed to, yeah, you get told, one person gets told about your work and they come in and they see immediate results. And unlike traditional PR, there is a really clear and tangible return on investment a lot of the time. Not always, but especially when women aren't taken seriously in traditional spaces, when they're an OnlyFans creator, to have the credibility that you're covered by the New York Post or the Daily Mail or the Guardian or on TV. Like it is such an empowering win to the women.

11:15And then they also actually see a monetary return. So the reputation kind of spread very quickly. And it started with Australian creators, but it's not long before, you know, an OnlyFans creator that's massive in America sees a headline and they go, how did they get this? And the great thing about my business is that you have clients who want to market that they work with you because it's a status symbol.

11:38Laura Donadio: Like they're represented by someone that trusts them enough to look after their personal brand to give them the credibility. Right. Which historically is something that no one wanted to do. So you clearly saw a gap that no one wanted to fill and you go, I'll do that. It's great. I think it's this thing of, yeah, I can afford a publicist. It's a status thing. People care about my stories. About what I'm talking about, who I am. And they also have a respect for me because I respect them. I think in other cases, you might not want to share like, oh, I'm getting help. but in their case they're like well I'll help you out because everyone else is not willing to show that they work with me so yeah it's a very like friendly ecosystem where yeah when one's interested all is interested and I think one of our first clients was one of my bigger clients Annie Knight who was called Australia is my sex active woman the first when she started working with us she was making these TikToks where she was talking about um just her one night stands like she was going oh I met this guy from Tinder last night and this is what he was like and it was almost like dating reviews and at that time that was the most outrageous thing this is the first and in hindsight you go wow that's really nothing the internet does evolve so much yeah and it was three years ago like it wasn't long ago that's the thing it was but we kind of took that and we got her an interview on um Australia's biggest radio show which you hear radio and you go it's not that interesting but in Australia very big deal this show was a real shock jock it'd be like a Piers Morgan I guess got you and it had such a viral moment they dubbed her Australia's most sexually active woman just on their own bat and that really took off and that I think kind of yeah spurred on the how can we one up what can we do next and it's it's all happened organically but I guess things take shape and they change and yeah we at the core of everything is always like who are you and how can we get you across in a way that's going to quickly get traffic but also going to show a deeper level of personality and who you really are yeah you touched on being taken seriously how do you feel yourself as much as your talents about that I really love that I can be someone who takes the talent seriously the fact is the girls who work with me for the most part are making a minimum of six figures a month they are raking it in and they have infrastructure set up that means that they operate as a normal business but also and I think this is again standard across the influencer industry they kind of pick up who's close by and they go I'll hire my boyfriend as my assistant I'll hire my friend from high school who has a bit of social media experience as my editor um it's hard for them to get like structural support not just because they're an influencer and you don't know where to look and you're new to work and you've not worked an office job so how do you know that you're meant to hire xyz but additionally because people don't want to service them so I kind of wanted to fill that gap and very much show that it's worth taking adult creators seriously um and that actually I mean it's worth it obviously on a moral standpoint for me but additionally like mentally financially it it it pays off so I kind of enjoy it especially because I started this probably when I was 21 like I enjoyed the kind of rebellion of it and they're like yeah I don't care like you think I can't work with these people I'm gonna do an incredible job and we're gonna I'll show you change the world you know female jobs are so often just oh you're a podcaster and it's it's I always say like the skill that's required to speak a language that everyone understands is often a lot harder than learning lawyer speak finance speak this is like a hill I will die on in that like I I'm from a family of like real like doctor lawyer finance kind of spaces but I used to feel like they would kind of immediately discount my two cents because they were going right yeah you're coming at this from like a little gossip lens but gossip is an economy like there is so much money there and just because the money isn't in a way that you deem serious it doesn't make it any less legitimate so I've always felt that I'm not taken very seriously and to add on the layer that I work with adult creators, I often had people coming up to me, friends or, you know, peers or even more senior people in their career.

16:29And they'd go, oh, like, I love that for you. Like, I respect that for you. That's awesome. Like, get that bag. But like, what's it like working with a bunch of idiots?

16:39Laura Donadio: And I went like. But some of them are incredible business owners. Also, like, you have to be incredibly savvy to make it to that level. I think people really underestimate the amount it takes for a person to make it to that level. Like, so I've been in influencer marketing for the last 15 years, and sorry, NPR, I did celebrity endorsement and I kind of like, you know, served the evolution of social media. And it's really funny because it doesn't happen by chance. Like, you don't just become a successful influencer because you woke up one morning and your content went viral. Sure, it happens to like 0.1 % of the people, but you have to be savvy.

17:18Laura Donadio: You have to know what you're doing. It's consistency is showing up. It's putting the content out there and it's not easy. It's, it takes a lot. Oh, it takes so much. And I also think if they're in a world where, you know, let's, let's take it at face value, which is what people assume that they wake up, they open up their phone and they go, Oh, Hey, TikTok today, I'm drinking my green juice. and they put their phone down and then like you know their biggest issue is like oh should I get the pink handbag or the blue handbag like is it not so incredibly impressive that they get to live that life and and they're getting paid to do it that is a skill yes we're not we're not talking 500 quid yeah talking decent money the my my girls almost all of them are millionaires and and you can sit and go like oh it's an unintelligent job because they're just so vain and they care about how they look and all that matters is going to the gym at 10 a.m going to Pilates and it's like that's aspirational to me if if you get to live the life that you dream of and you don't have to grind for it what is everyone's obsession with you know working hard to achieve this ultimate goal if you can do it for easier then that makes you smarter than everyone in my opinion I think like cheat code do your thing like and you know you get there you get there who are we to criticize that I am coming around to knowing that like I won't be respected by everyone I'm okay with that like I don't need everyone to kind of yeah look at me and go wow that's a really impressive business you built people can sit here and go it's funny I had this I just was on a trip with a friend who told a guy that she was seeing oh my friend who I'm traveling with this is what she does for work these are some of the names she's worked with and we were hanging out with their friend group and it had been three days where we were just all normal people and it was maybe on the third day that she told him and he went back home to his group of friends and then the next day they came back and they were talking to me a bit differently but it just didn't like click in my head yet and there was this moment where I noticed one of these men in the group were kind of rolling their eyes at what I was saying and And they were because they eventually came around and said, what is it that you do?

19:32And I was explaining and he was rolling his eyes. And I said, do you have a problem? Like I'm seeing. And he's like, oh, no, I don't have a problem. And I'm like, really? Because we were really like friendly yesterday. And all of a sudden, like. Changed behavior. You seem a bit irritable. And he went, oh, look, like whatever you do to get your money, like I just don't respect it. And I was like, what is it that you don't respect? And he's like, you know, I think the industry is really gross and bad. And I was like, do you watch porn?

19:58Laura Donadio: I was about to say, I put like a hundred quid on the fact that he watches porn and probably has a subscription to OnlyFans. Well, no. And this is the thing though. You don't have a subscription to OnlyFans. And this is where I get it's, yeah, you watch porn for free. Like you, and he goes, yeah, but I would never pay. And I'm like, right. So you don't like when women try and make money off the content you take for free. and I know it's it feels like a stretch but like follow the point in that like so you're stealing really you're okay with consuming content that you really don't respect as long as it's free it's free and the women don't make anything off it so basically slavery yeah I'm quickly going to interrupt this episode to remind you to please hit subscribe if you're listening on YouTube and for those listening on Apple or Spotify to not forget to hit the follow button it only takes a second it's free but it will mean the world to us I kind of went down this path and you know you've got this some really nice people in the group who are going no you do your thing I'm like ignore him you know and he's kind of like perking up and I kind of on this like you know having a bit of a group surrounding what I and I went well it makes pretty good money so I'll sleep easy at night and they my best friend turns around and goes Emma don't say that that's you can't tell people that why yes you can and you should be proud of what you've built well and I went sorry I don't no offense to your best friend and I don't I don't walk up to someone and go hi I'm gonna meet you I make millions like no but when someone's pushing you and going I don't respect what you do well then you don't have to respect them back it's like maybe you'd respect it if you realize that like I'm living my dream life and you're you know working very hard because you're so moral but you work for an oil company or you work for you know things that are destroying the planet and ultimately or you work for a gambling company or alcohol and I'm not here to judge any of that.

22:01Laura Donadio: Did you find that that was specifically being a woman or do you find that it was the case with any gender? I think it's like a compounding thing I actually do think it's genderless in a lot of ways I think that in Australia there's not many massively successful business owners far less women far less young women and it just kind of is this you know dampening effect where if you add I mean and and far less that are working in the sex industry you know so it's just this kind of um yeah the the culture is very traditional I think people expect Australia to be very laid back and easygoing and like yeah do your thing I'd say it's not too loud it's one of the worst yes yeah do your thing like in your corner and please don't tell me about it I struggle so much still with like I I had a feature recently in a um magazine and they like collab they collab posted me on Instagram and I like accept it and I have to look away it gives me such an ick like I hate sharing but I'm aware like you know climbing cringe mountain like that sort of adage of like that's the way that you succeed but it's not at all comfortable I'm trying to get over that like cultural barrier I think and speaking of the sex industry specifically historically has been very male dominated do you find there's a shift today do you find that we would benefit from having more women there like what's your take I think at the core I mean the sex industry doesn't exist without women it's that power really sits with men and power has always sat with men and it still does but it does change when and this is why I'm quite a big advocate of a platform like OnlyFans where women can determine the price they charge and what content they're comfortable sharing and you know while there's a lot to be said about not liking the content ultimately there is a woman at the center of it who determines her price and her what she sells um and that is really the first time in history I think before and this is again one of these conversations I love having about OnlyFans because people have an issue with OnlyFans but their issue should be with women's sexualization and you didn't have a issue with women's sexualization when it was Margot Robbie and Wolf of Wall Street or Playboy yes or Playboy or um you know other people mentioned like there was so much back in the day that was really really unacceptable yeah and and really awful for women but it's kind of easier to palette when they're seen but not heard and in this space and not in the control of it either right the women that I work with are quite outspoken about you know saying yeah I love sex and I love making money and I'm like I'm rich because I because I posted this porno and and people hate it and they hate but I don't think they hate it I think they hate hearing it yeah like because I think everyone who has I mean maybe not everyone and I often say this if someone comes to me and says like I am firmly Christian I've never watched porn in my life and I disagree with the existence of it sure like that's a conversation I'm open to having um and and also like that's a core belief of someone that you can accept and you can have different values exactly yeah like that very much or you know people might say I don't like the idea that um and this is a conversation I shouldn't I should avoid getting into but I'm gonna say it like there's this there was this conversation around one of my clients went to I mean like freshers in the UK and people went the men aren't like able to consent and I'm going okay these are like 20 21 year old boys and I shouldn't say boys 21 year old men and do you have an issue with the age of consent yeah because that's a conversation that we can have but that's a legal conversation that we should have a different level than this right or maybe they say no it's not consent it's that it shouldn't be filmed well if you have an issue with it being filmed do you also have an issue with 18 year old female porn stars because that's not a conversation that we've had either all of that I'm very happy to have and I'm actually like quite interested in understanding and debating and and agreeing that yeah okay that's that's a nuanced thing that there's gray area there but I think the conversations are very um they're whittled down to something that is basic and it's all there's always so much depth and often I think it comes back to misogyny that's that's kind of the core of all of the issues that come around to the criticisms of OnlyFans because it's such a niche field and there are competitors but they're not really in without you know tooting my own horn too much they don't really like touch the sides of what we offer what we offer is so bespoke it's like incredibly impactful people really see results we have no shortage of people wanting to work with us like that's really been the case since day one I'm lucky in that respect that you've worked hard and you've built something great yeah it's not luck I know I always say I shouldn't say I'm lucky I am lucky but but that's hard That's hard work.

27:38I agree. I agree. But yeah, we have no shortage of people who want to work with us. I think what is really important to me is making sure that the people who are working with us are the ones who it feels a bit like God-like in a weird way where I'm like, you're going to be the star. But I want people who have something at their core. They believe in what they're doing. I think there are no shortage of women who start on OnlyFans and this isn't to say it's bad if anything you know to each their own but start on OnlyFans because they see it as a shortcut to getting rich and I have people come to me and say like I don't care what story goes out there just make me famous because I just want to make cash and I'm like mad respect I'm not the right person for you like I want someone with a bit of substance and excitement and passion and it's not that I need them to necessarily be passionate about sex although there are there are quite a few who just generally like a like wouldn't you want to be paid to be fucked all the time and I'm like me no but a fair play to you personally not my thing but hey if that's yours yeah you go babe yeah like I I Lily Phillips is one of my clients and she genuinely loves it I think people expect like it's so and I expected it in a way before I knew her I went I you you can't be loving the whole group thing going on and it's like a king for her and and that's fascinating you just go like man like couldn't be me but like I'm glad you like it and and I I truly believe if you turn around tomorrow and said like OnlyFans is gone and you're not going to be paid a single cent for anything you do from here on out she'll keep doing it like it was never about money for her but then there's other people who it is about money and that's not to say well I'm not working with you if it's about money but I want to kind of understand the motivation and the know their I don't know like their grit and their character and I make a bit of a judgment call based on my own morals and you know how perfect are they it's hard to say but I think for the most part I've gotten it pretty right so yeah it's it's a weird vetting process that's based on nothing in particular but mainly like is there a story to be told do you care about what you do do you feel passionate about women's rights or do you feel passionate about is there a why yeah yeah can we talk about her clip with drake i did not organize it this is incredible it's i'm like what ndi what NDAs have been signed no it's yeah no it's really cool I think it's and I loved that um whole Drake segment he was there was quite a few OnlyFans creators there and I went mad respect on Drake to be going yeah like you're welcome here and it's a mainstream celebrity and it's really it's just a really cool milestone can't stress enough that was all on her like in the DM sort to five but the idea that yeah you get um a mainstream creator who's taking them seriously and I think a big part of that is the ongoing representation it's not going anywhere we're getting people in news you're going to keep seeing their name in headlines you might not like it but hopefully it results in a little bit more credibility and a little bit more safety and people wanting to you know at least entertain the conversation which I think he did which was really

31:13Laura Donadio: cool yeah I like yeah I love that I think there's a lot to say I wasn't gonna go there but you you brought it up is the way that she actually feels herself about it and I think if it's in kink if it's a kink it's your kink like no one should have an opinion about that and I think there's a lot of um almost like preempted opinions from people that oh she's really unhappy she's not well in her head she's like you know like there's something like someone you know controlling that yeah like Like she's been through like trauma. When I met her about a year ago, she already had some interest. And I was very intrigued about her story because she went viral for Sleeping with 100 Men in a Day and a documentary where she cried afterward.

31:56And I think that had a real moment, especially in the UK. Everyone kind of is familiar with that clip. And I don't blame people for psychoanalyzing it and kind of wanting to prescribe meaning. And I think it's a good thing. And when I met her, it took me a while of working with her before I said, like, okay, but what was that about?

32:19Laura Donadio: Like, what? Yeah, that took me through it. Yeah, because I want to, like, I want to help, but I also don't want to be kind of pushing you in a direction where you're doing things that you're not comfortable with. And mind you, like, I have no, no affiliation with the stunt. Someone can come to me and say, I'm doing this, and I can go do your thing. but I kind of went I don't want to almost be a bystander if it's something that is traumatizing and she was like yeah you don't want to feed into it if she doesn't feel comfortable doing it yeah yeah of course she said to me like I had the most stressful day like I was so irritated because like I was so excited for it and it just didn't go to plan and like she's like everyone goes to work some days and is like god I'm tired and irritated and I want to cry because I had this vision for this project I was doing in my business and it didn't come through the way that I wanted it to like and then as a business owner you go oh okay yeah I get that I understand that actually and that and and she says it and she's not lying and and in a whole nother if you want the real gory details there's been another time where I have been in the other room when there's a shoot going on like next door bizarre experience everyone should try it once it's absolutely weird but invite me next time I know you're sitting in the next room like cup of tea anyone need anything you know and okay having a good time she comes out afterward and she was filming with another creator and the other creator came out being like oh it's been a long day and Lily just was like lit up she was like who's next you know can't like I'm just getting started day and you go oh you just like this and like yeah you just really love this and I actually think that the reason that she came off in the media like people kind of not getting it was because she's just a girl like there's no media training it's not it's not that she's like you know been calculated and said things in a certain way and I think people have taken it as like insincerity when really it's like the most sincere thing and it's really interesting knowing her personally and knowing a lot of the creators and how they function and they say things and you just go like there's no conspiracy theory like they're just people and they you know talk and think and act like any normal person sometimes they say something in the wrong way and they didn't mean it like that and they don't quite know how to articulate things perfectly we don't really do media training we kind of just say like what's the story you want to tell and I kind of give them pointers on like how we can mold it to come across in the cleanest way but yeah she she likes it and um it's a really like funny thing to watch so obviously they are super reliant on the fact that they use platforms are completely outside of their control right how do you mitigate the risk of a platform shutting down of a net obviously i know you just said like lily would still do it if she was making that money but ultimately it's all of their it's business exactly it's how they make their bread yeah when I worked in women's media it was a conversation that we'd have about owning your platforms and we you know eight years ago seven years ago it was a conversation then where it's like Instagram can turn around tomorrow and say we're done we're closing that risk is like more than tenfold for creators they don't want creators on the platform it's an easy win you know politically like the time we're in is uncertain especially in the sex work industry so they're in a very uncertain territory 60 % of their traffic comes from Instagram and Instagram shadow bans or bans them on the regular so I guess like that's where PR comes in and it's like you know lucky for me but you know it it's diversification and it's kind of you know showing up in places that are not owned by well you're not owned by corporations I would agree like a New York Post or a Daily Mail yeah they're still yeah but it means that when they're searched for they're it still comes up yeah they're existing somewhere outside of a platform that doesn't want them to exist there's this like adage about them being like a professional athlete where they have a lifespan where yeah post 30 they might not be making as much money it's hard to say at this point um because it's all still very it's still growing at the same time yeah cool last question seeing how much money your clients make were you ever tempted the reason I'm asking this is because I haven't worked in influencer marketing for so long this is the question I get asked every day like where did you never want to be an influencer yourself and my answer has always been like very clear no I've always said very firmly no and probably less than before I worked with them it was never it was never a career option in my mind but since working with them and kind of understanding the trade-offs the you know reputational risk the family finding out and friends and those being some negatives but on top of that you know they're on camera all the time I hate being on camera like the actual technicalities the skills of the role the you know speaking to camera and telling a story they're things that I'm not great at I'm trying to improve on for my own business but I have my skills my skills very much exist in being a marketing brain PR you know storytelling but they it's not a skill set I have and it's not something that you wouldn't have built yeah like it's it's it's nothing I can't stress enough it's not there's certain people who thrive with that sort of career um I just don't think I'd be good at it um quick fire are you ready um you can take a second to think about your answers obviously um and then once you've answered like the first word you can elaborate if you want what is the least glamorous part of growth in one word team I find managing was like something that I was so excited about when I worked for other people I really want to be a people manager I love working with people having my own business I have a small team but a team of five or six now um yeah and and I love every single person and you can see so clearly like strengths and weaknesses and it's exciting in a lot of ways but it becomes really like arduous managing to everyone's style and more than that I often feel like I'm disappointing them in that I can't provide all the answers so I've brought on a people and culture person who's doing like a three-month kind of intensive with us and stuff but yeah I think that's the thing that I struggle with.

39:20Laura Donadio: Finish my sentence. I felt most out of my depth when? Not really businessy, but I think moving to the UK. I found that first month of living here like pretty awful. I was like, this will be easy. And I think like a lot of people when you move country, like have that same experience. You're like glamorize it and like get excited. But yeah, But that was really like I was like, oh, it'll be easy. And adjusting to the time zone difference. I have an all Australian team pretty much. I now have someone in the UK. But it's a big difference. So, yeah, well, I was doing like 11 p.m. meetings most nights in the winter where I thought that's an adjustment.

40:02I moved in December, start of December.

40:04Laura Donadio: And I was like, I don't know if I can get through this. But I got to say it's summer right now and I'm thriving. So what was your most expensive lesson and how much did it cost you? oh I one thing about me is I'm really I used to be great with money and I've just kind of lost that I'm lazy I make decisions kind of out of like what's the quickest way to where I need to be so I'm often making financial mistakes but I'd say the most recent one is um because we're an international company we're global we have clients everywhere we we're looking at setting up a company um overseas and genuinely like very officially sought tax advice sought professional help and was advised that the best way would be setting up this particular international company where in the long run it would be like a parent company and it would you know it's all above board blah blah and but it would be good for tax reasons yeah and even saying it I'm like hesitant to but there was an initial setup fee of 10k pound and I sent that and we kind of started the process and I had a conversation with someone in the kind of finance space and they went this is just straight up tax evasion and you will be and I was like no but like I've been talking to someone who said it's and and you can't really plead ignorance on that one no they're like no this is like murky at the absolute best taking of it do not do it and I think I've just lost 10k and that was like recent what was the best piece of advice you've ever received and who was it from no I have so many but um my first boss when I worked in women's media she was the founder of a company it's now a company with 100 people like I said it's Australia's biggest women's media company and she always speaks really publicly about like making a Mia shaped whole Mia Friedman she's the founder and she talks about how when she was interning and doing magazines she would work in such a way that people would notice when she's not there and that was something that I like internalized and like had as my one guiding light and when I interned at Mama Mia I kind of like forced my way in I was like you're going to let me come to the office and they were like do internships and I was like well I'm gonna be there and it was funny because when I then got the job they had a little onboarding meeting with all of the new staff and Mia was running it and she said do you know Emma has been interning with us for the past three months and she made an Emma shaped hole and I went you noticed I did that because you said it but like Like, yeah, I think in any job, like, that kind of, like, making yourself indispensable, knowing that, like, you know, when you're not around, people are kind of suffering a bit.

43:06Laura Donadio: You can't lose. No audience, no network, a thousand pounds in the bank. What is your first move? It's such a hard one to consider because, like, network to me is beyond everything. It's, like, that's the only reason I succeed is because, like, I'm such a networker. So I think money, you know, that can be your living expenses for the next three weeks. I am going to the door of a business that I want to work with. And yeah, I think like you can still do that. I agree. When I worked in traditional PR, I worked with restaurants and I was an account manager and it was not part of my role at all to do sales.

43:52And I remember I just loved this Italian restaurant. And I went in one day and I said, like, you know, you have the best food ever. And like, I know that I could probably get you in these places. And I work for a company like there's nothing in this for me, but I would love to do your PR. And they brought me on and they were like my longest client ever. When I started my PR agency, they brought me on, even though I was working with OnlyFans creators. They were like this restaurant. They were happy to be there. And he was the best. Like, I just think like relationships are everything. So, yeah, money can just sit there and exist because you'll quickly, you know, make two thousand pound, three thousand pound, like the quick wins, the lower, you know, deals.

44:32But whatever your skill is, find the person you want to work for and tell them you want to work there. Like if someone came to me and said, I am obsessed with the Siren Group, please, please, if anyone wants to work for me, I don't care if you have no skills. Like I'm going to fucking find a way for you to work with me because I want that. You lose everything tomorrow. Who's your first call? I would say my partner. My partner is like my second brain. I hate that that's like, you know, it's a bit, but I wouldn't need to call him because he'd just already know. I think my mum has a real estate agency and I grew up with business owner parents and she, like, I kind of have this process in my head any time something goes wrong where I start by talking to my partner and he very easily calms me down.

45:17like it it's like a that's you know speak some sense and then like my next port of call is my mom and I'll call her often in my mornings her evenings and I'll go like ah this client said blah blah and they don't see that I'm doing well or oh I'm dealing with this and blah blah and she kind of speaks sense into me so I have like the kind of like okay like bring it down and then I have a little whinge like I'm known for loving a bit of a whinge and I have my trusted people I I hope my mom's not going to go run around and air my dirty laundry, but she is very much like still and will always be like my point person.

45:54Laura Donadio: So is mine. Okay. We started by asking what you're known for. Now we're going to finish. What do you want to be known for? um I think I want to be known for changing the way people perceive women and sex work I have really strong stances in this world but I guess I want to be known for pushing boundaries in a way that is empowering and not harmful

46:33you