Breaking Stereotypes in the Workplace

0:00Michelle Sarpong: Shipping, billing, admin, payroll, marketing. You're managing all the things. So why waste time sending important documents the old-fashioned way? Mail and ship when you want, how you want with Stamps.com. Print postage on demand 24-7 and schedule pickups from your office or home. Save up to 90 % with automated rate shopping. That's why over 1 million small businesses trust Stamps.com. Go to Stamps.com and use code PODCAST to try Stamps.com risk-free for 60 days. Welcome to Behind the Title. I was delighted to welcome Michelle Sarpong, head of activation at Seven Stars. She's known favorably in the industry as Sarps, who talks about her experience with racism, namely how she's overcome it and how others have stepped up and in to help challenge people in and outside the workplace to help break stereotypes.

0:54Do you know what? I'm so privileged to be invited to Behind the Title. Talking about conversations around like racism, biases and discrimination is so key. There's been monumental change that's happened in, you know, the past, which has kind of brought these conversations to the forefront. And we know currently there's a lot of unrest around, you know, something around discrimination, etc. and immigration. So yeah, it's really important, I think, to have these discussions openly and with different people as well. Someone out there that hears a conversation and it spurs them to do act or you know have permission to you know step into a situation that's essentially you know dangerous to someone is amazing I think like having open discussions around certain incidences and certain topics is really key to keep the conversation and momentum going and Danny's doing a fantastic job about bringing this to life

1:47welcome thank you so much for joining me today michelle i can't tell you how excited i am to have you here but more importantly dive into i guess some really important stuff we're going to cover off today but i guess for the listeners that don't know you i guess we're peers in the industry but maybe just give a bit intro to you and your background and why it was important to come on to behind the title today? Yeah, definitely. So, hi, I'm Michelle Sarpong. I'm currently at the Seven Stars as head of activation, which I got promoted to about three months ago. But my background is I've worked in many networking agencies.

2:27I've worked at MediaCom, Mindshare, Dentsu, OMD. So, a lot. I've basically done the rounds, actually. And I've worked in the background. My background is activation investment. So, I started off as a print buyer at MediaCom I'm like one of the biggest clients, P &G, then kind of moved around, got into the digital world and then got into the trading world as well, which was very interesting. So I was in trading for a good seven years before moving as a world of activation. So, yes, I've done a lot in the industry. And I think one of the things I think why I really was honoured that you asked me to come and join you on this podcast was the fact that, you know, there's a lot, a lot goes on in this industry.

3:07And I just think we have pockets of like conversations of different people. And I think actually, if I can have a broader conversation about certain things I've gone through and it helps that one person, that's kind of, you know, the impact that I would love to love to make. And I think a point, there was a point I was looking at leaving the industry. Really? Yeah. Yeah. And that was that was quite tough to go through because I think some of the stuff we'll talk about probably later kind of added to that. But I think now making it a sustained industry, I'm committed to try and help other people that might have felt similar things that I went through, et cetera.

3:41So, yeah, that's my story. Amazing. I think you're actually doing yourself a disservice. And I have to read this because I don't know this off the top of my head. Your industry recognition is second to none. So, campaign A-list. Yes. Top 10 buyer. Yeah. Media leader, Future 100. Yeah. IPA. Yeah. Any more that I've missed out? uh trailblazer as well campaign trailblazer last year yeah which actually to be fair leads into this as like when i those nominations i think those accolades are amazing but i think the ones that really meant something was the ipa i list in terms of like actually giving back to the industry um as well as that trailblazer i think those are the two you're kind of like oh actually i've made a difference somewhere and that's all you can want when you you know enter this world and leave this world that's the kind of things you remember it's funny because and i guess this is in any industry wherever you work but you know whether it's a getting a job whether it's um getting promoted receiving a pay rise whether it's winning an award winning a new client instantaneously you feel amazing yeah you know that that gratification is there and just as quick and I can only speak from my experience here I can feel really low yes I can go the other way and and I guess seeing you know those accolades you think that must be amazing but I know that as great as it is it's it's forgotten by everyone the day after um so before we get in I just can I just unpack that a little bit because there's quite a few awards there like it must make you feel good but at the same time has that been reciprocated either by you know the people you've worked with the industry yeah or is it kind of like oh great one day well done and then forgotten what it's interesting you said that i think the thing that really comes out with like a lot of these accolades is it's based on the places i've worked so i get more of the not the low but the kind of like look back moments when i talk to anyone i used to work with or something it because you get those comments of like oh you're doing really well now and I was a bit like I've been the same person of course I've worked at different companies I've grown in different companies but what it comes down to is the allyship the support that you get from different leaders or different organizations I've been people that know me I've been the same you know massive Arsenal fan since I started I am a massive Arsenal fan so I have to pause on that sorry I'm not into football but I am an Arsenal fan oh the only thing I can talk about is the Invincibles because that's all I remember, right?

6:15That's all we still talk about. Okay, cool. We've won anything since then. I'm joking. We will next season. But I've been the same person when I've been working at these companies. I've been, you know, I like to think I work hard, you know, I go above and beyond. I make, build relationships externally, internally. I do a lot more in terms of like giving back to the advertising community. I've always kind of done that all the way through, but it wasn't somewhat recognised. And I think like, you know, I've been lucky. I've landed at an independent agency who, you know, I've got my CEO, Jenny Piggum, I've got Liam Mullins, who've really supported me along my journey in my career.

6:50And actually, people might say, oh, it's because you work an independent now, not on the network. And I was a bit like, no, it comes down to the people. It is who supports you, who, you know, nurtured your career. Like when I worked at Dentsu, my career was actually doing quite well when I had a mentor called Bobby Campbell, who sadly passed away several years ago. But I noticed a change when I didn't have an ally within the business. And, you know, that comes down to some of the stuff we're going to talk about later in terms of like, you know, I'm a black woman. I've come from East London. Like there's so many different layers to that, that actually then bias is set in and in those circumstances.

7:23So when I look at my accolades in terms of like, I've moved a lot of, a lot in agency land. And I'm like, it's actually quite a sad story because I've had to move because I haven't been recognized. And I'm one of those people that if my worth is not seen, I keep it moving. And I think I've always had that mantra, but I've been lucky to have my mum who's always kind of instilled that in me in terms of like, you know, you have to work hard, but if you're not like, you know, valued, you'll find something that you are. So yeah, it's interesting because the accolades are amazing. And it's like, it's quite easy for people to look at that now and go, oh my gosh, that's amazing.

7:53Like you've always been achieving those things. But in real honesty, like, you know, it's taken a long time and actually I found a place that I'm able to flourish and, you know, excel because I've got support and allies throughout my career. Very long-winded way of saying it. No, that was a really, I guess a really useful intro, but a helpful guide because it segues quite nicely, which is you can have these accolades, right? And outwardly to the world, everything could look amazing. Yeah, exactly. Now we talk about the backstage pass, right? And this is all about getting behind the title. Like, was there a moment where externally everything was just great, but it might be, you know, a crisis in a room, whatever it may be, where actually deep down you were in a really kind of tough, low, tricky space in your life?

8:50It's really interesting because actually we've been talking about like me being promoted head of activation. It's got a, I'm obviously delighted. Thank you. I know you mentioned it, but I never thought I'd be head of anything. But when I actually got promoted the first time to like a head of publishing, audio and direct digital team, I then was lucky enough to be invited to Cannes. And I was like, I remember just thinking like, you know, I was looking to leave this industry. Now I'm head of. And I literally, I was like, now I'm going to Cannes. You know, back in the day, you used to get those emails going, lunch in Cannes.

9:17and actually you open it and you're like, if you're in Cannes, you go to his lunch and you'll just be like, someone just take me to Cannes. But then actually finally go and I was just like, all those emails I can reply to. Actually, I have never been. Oh, have you not? But yeah. It's fine. It'll come. Don't worry. It took me a long time to get there. But just to be clear, I'm not sure I even want to go. So come on. This is a great segue. So I basically got invited to Cannes. I was so happy because I got promoted. So I, and it was obviously Cannes is in France, as everyone knows. I then was like, oh my gosh, I'm going to Cannes.

9:47I've been promoted. This is amazing. So like, I remember just going to Cannes and just being thinking like, this is going to be great. I'm going to be like shoulders with like, you know, CEOs. I've made it. So like I was, I was gassed guys. I'm not going to lie. So I was literally, literally the first night running around Cannes, there was a party. My friend was just like, have you signed up to this party? And I was just like, haven't signed up yet. She was like, neither have I, but this is the PDF of the ticket. She was like, and I was like, actually, I know people in that media owner. So even if I don't get in, I can probably try and call someone and sort it out.

10:17So she gets there before me. She's like, oh, we're in a line. And make it clear, it's like two white women. They were in a line. And then after I was like, oh, I'll come and join you. So then I got to the line and I went to the security guard. Oh, my friends in the queue. And every time I said my friends in the queue, they turned around and waved at him. So I was like, those are my friends. They're in the queue. I was like, can I just go and join them? He was like, show me your ticket. Show them the ticket. He was like, that's not a ticket, that's a PDF. And I was like oh they've showed the same thing I was like look if I don't get in I will go somewhere else or do you know what like I know people there it's fine so I went back and forth with the security guard for about three minutes Denny eventually let me go and join the line great so we're all chatting obviously telling everyone that I've been promoted to anyone who listens I was like oh my gosh I'm ahead of so literally having the best time then all of a sudden the same security guard who I'd had this conversation with came up to the line and literally was just like you need to get out and I was like uh at first I was confused I was like is he talking to me and he was like you need to get out of the line and I was a bit like uh why and I was like I've just been remember me I just spoke to you then he literally was like no you need to get out he's getting he started to get really like angry and aggressive then my friend which so this I can't explain to you when she recognized the situation was basically what's happened is I was probably I was the only black person in that line and he just was like she obviously can't have a ticket so wanting to remove me or I was trying to sneak in or get in and in a in a unlike provocative way anyway so he she recognized and she uh Hannah Barnett I have to shout out because she's actually my personal friend um yeah she's and she's referred to like chief client officer so whoop whoop to her too but she recognized the situation straight away she saw what it was about she stepped in so normally like a person of color will know this like when there is an incident where you've got an inkling that it's down to your colour, but you don't really know.

12:09And sometimes you try to navigate the situation by going, no, it can't be, you know, it must be something else. But actually really deep down, we always know, we always know. But it was amazing for the fact, because that's probably one of the first times and probably only times that someone has stepped into a situation because they recognise exactly what it was and I didn't have to advocate for myself. So she literally was like, sorry, sir, like why are you being rude to my friend? Why she beat the only one single dad so she really was like trying to hone in on like the fact that he was obviously singling me out for my my color I then was able to then take a back seat and be like I wish I was I was deeply upset if I'm going to be totally honest the way he spoke to me do you know what it was racism like I've gone through it my whole life subtle and overt but the thing that really hurt me was the fact that I was really embarrassed because the way he spoke to me and everyone else in the line was just, everyone else outside of Hannah Barnett was just staring and no one said anything.

13:05And I was like, this is really embarrassing. The fact that everyone is witnessing this moment, like they kind of know what it is, but they don't want to get involved because they think, and I've heard this before where people just go, we think it's best for you to deal with it. And I was just like, oh, this is, this is, this is embarrassing. And we're in Cannes. And then, so she was basically, so Hannah was literally going mad. And I, I mean, I'll never forget it but I was so so happy that I had her there to to kind of advocate for me so I didn't have to she was going mad at the security then he got to the point where he was actually going to physically remove me and I was like look I'm just going to leave like it's fine and I was just like Hannah you stay she was like no we're not saying we're not staying in this party and then she and her other friend literally marched me up to the front of the line and she basically told the organizer what happened and she was like oh so sorry can come to your partner Hannah was like no we're not going to your party and I was like it was one of those moments where I was just like I mean I was just so grateful for her as my friend but her as an advocate for like my community and I remember after that we went for dinner and I met a whole bunch of other people and then I um got a cab home I've actually not said this to anyone uh because I'm not even I'm not a massive cryer that people know that I'm one of those people that don't cry but uh only when like people die basically people like you need you need to go to therapy for that I was like yeah maybe eventually eventually.

14:24But I got in a cab and I actually cried because I think it was all of it. So sitting, like having that experience so publicly, like after I've been promoted, after I was a bit like, I'm a law abiding citizen. I've not killed anyone. I've not done any wrong to like people. I've not hurt anyone deeply. And I have then been put in a situation where I've been reduced back down to my colour in a negative way. And no matter what I do in life, that's always going to be a factor. Another thing that played on my mind was the fact that I was annoyed at myself because normally when I go to places that I know there's racial tension, I prepare myself and so I'll be like, oh, this could happen.

15:07So then I don't get blindsided by those situations. But in this circumstance, A, you know, we're in the advertising community, which is like, you know, I've got a lot of friends in the industry. I had a lot of friends in Cannes. Like there was colleagues out there as well. And then I'd be promoted. So I was like, I'm actually meant to be here. I'm a head of a department. So this is great. But then it was in that one moment, I was just like, oh, yeah, but I'm black. Yeah, I forgot about that. And I forgot that I was in France. And I think that was another thing that I was deeply upset with myself, that I allowed myself to feel comfortable in that space.

15:47So yes, I've literally... No, no, no. I have two questions on the back of that, but I'll ask the most pertinent one. You know, either in that situation there or another situation, is there **** that you wish you said? You know, and it may have been... It may not have been because someone was advocating for you and you said quite openly for once it was quite nice to take a step back. But have there been other instances or is that a particular one that stands out where you're like, I wish I would have said this? Yeah, do you know what? There's one in this instance and there's another one actually that I'll talk about.

16:26But I think in this instance, I think I wish I made a bigger thing of it when I came back into London. Because actually when it happened, and actually which was another thing that was quite nice, Hannah had actually saw some of my colleagues early the next morning. So she'd actually told a lot of them because then I started to get texts like, SAHPS, you're OK? And I was just like, yes, yeah, yeah, fine. I was like, and I kind of brushed it off. But when I came back to London, everyone's like, oh, we heard about this. Like, was it OK? And I wished I had pushed it more, even for myself or my senior colleagues to address the me-drona that it happened with.

17:04And I think I do have that sense of a bit of regret. But then I think I had a full circle moment when, I mean, this sounds really sad, but I think when it happened with the Films Can event where Kelly Rowland got like ushered and quite badly treated by security, it was almost like I had a lot of people then come to me going, oh, like we said, I was like, yeah, it wasn't an isolated incident. It wasn't just like a, oh, just bad luck. I was like, it's a general thing. Like when racism sets in with certain countries or certain people, like that is how they treat people. And it's never addressed. And I think for me, I think I wished I probably pushed that more.

17:44Another incident that's always played on my mind is we had a client who they wanted to, you know, invest in like football clubs. And as I touched upon earlier, I'm a massive football fan. So I was like, love this brief. I was like I'm gonna yeah literally I was just like I had a I was looking up I was looking after a um a colleague quite junior colleague at the time and I was a bit like you lead the brief but I want to be CC just because I was like I want to be involved I really didn't do anything um and then actually there was a roundabout moment where one of the football clubs um basically went directly to the client and said that I think this email's fraud and I was like then it came it landed on my desk because my boss at the time was just like got this weird email from the the client and they've said they and I read the email chain I was like you know that's racist you know why they think that's fraud because they've seen like two names on there that are not English uh and assumed that there is some underhand and untoward wow the thing going on and I was a bit like did you can you not see and actually my boss at the time was like didn't really get it and I didn't really push it I was I mean my angry email to him was just like look this is racist this is racism and I and he didn't see and I thought and I left it because I literally was like because I think one thing that people understand I've done sound with terms of like discrimination is like we go through it so like you can't fight everything because if not you'll just be angry and drained all the time so there are points where you go I wish I said more I wish but then sometimes you're just like I have to let certain things go because if not I'll just be angry all the time but I think in that situation I think for the junior member that I was managing I think I should have showed up more in that situation to then for him in the future to be able to then advocate and speak up in those incidents as well so so again I think this is you know this is this is all about helping educate people as well and I don't know what would have been a a positive outcome of that scenario with your leader at the time?

19:49What action would you have expected to take? Or is it more acknowledgement? It's just, it's important to help people understand that. Yeah, it's hard. Especially when we work at communications, like, you know, we have our clients that we need to, you know, provide services for. I think for me personally, I think it's the acknowledgement. Like I think, you know, taking us into a room and going, sorry that you've got, like some kind of apology or some kind of acknowledgement that you might have not seen what we were talking about, but we are upset about the situation. So just acknowledging and giving us a space to just to be right, just to be upset and actually flag that.

20:23And then that can open a conversation in terms of if my boss didn't understand where I was coming from, I could have explained what that means. And that's an education and learning moment for him in a positive way. Also, I think the conversation should have happened with the client, the said client as well, that also passed on an email that he was a bit like, oh yeah, I do think this looks a bit strange. And I was a bit like, but this is a client that's worked with us. He knows us. So he could have probably handled that in a better way, going to this said football club. No, this is my media agency.

20:53This is the initiative, et cetera, et cetera. But instead of just passing it to my boss to kind of almost not wanting to really deal with the situation. So I think in that situation, it was acknowledgement. And then actually leaning in to understand where we were coming from. And then it opens up conversations wider across the whole agency, right? So I think it's just solidarity in those situations wise, whereas often you're left to deal with stuff by yourself or seek, you know, solidarity in your own communities, which, you know, luckily I've got a great, you know, group of friends that I can, you know, lean into when these things happen.

21:28And you'll find people that come from different intersex, they often go when something happens in the workplace, they'll go to their friends on WhatsApp or they'll call them and go, this happened, can't believe it. They'll have their blowout session there, then come back into the office and it's all fine. And it's all like, it's OK, we've moved on from it. So I think it's just having that acknowledgement that and that space to actually feel what we feel, I think. I can't remember the exact words, but you said something on the lines of we just sense or we just know when there is an expression of racism towards you.

22:05Now, to me, I could be wrong here. I'm from a minority as well. It's maybe not visible in front of me. But you've either got the people that are ignorant. You've got the people that are, I guess if you want to call it belligerent and fighting it. And then you've got the people who, I don't know if naive is the right word, but are saying something but not realizing they're saying it. And again, it's just for educational purposes. Yeah, yeah. Tell me if you don't mind, like, what are those feelings that you get, that sixth sense that makes you feel like something's happening? Because I think you could always pick up people's intent.

22:47Like, I think I think anyone that comes from any kind of marginalised community, you have you have a heightened sense of like, you know, what people's intent is and you kind of look for it. Right. So I'm quite happy to have and people know me. I'm quite happy to have conversations where someone has said something and it's like I'll give you an example. So one of my friend's husbands, who's a lovely guy, like he's not malice in any sense of the word, but he said he made a comment of, I don't think racism is as bad now as it was back in the day. I was there with one of my friends who is a mixed race guy was like he was about to go off and I literally put my hand on his knee and I was a bit like, wait.

23:27And I was just like, what do you mean by that? And he went into his reasons. He was like, he grew up in like, and it does make sense in terms of, he grew up in the UK when it was like the 70s and 80s. And, you know, there was, like, racism was overt. So there was actually like, you know, violence. There was killings. There was like signs on doors. It was like, no dogs, no Irish, no blacks. Like, it was overt, right? And I was just like, okay, I can see where you're coming from. And I was a bit like, and he's into football. So I use a football analogy. and at the time I think Lampard has just become Chelsea manager and I was like it's not as overt it's not you it might not be as overt but it's still there so I gave an example of like football managers because actually if you look at the whole world of football managers they there's not many the amount of black players that play football not many of them make it into management right and you're just like why is that because you know they're good players they're like you know when you get behind the scenes and they talk about the changing room they talk about this person was a great leader like Patrick Vieira for Arsenal was a great leader I mean he eventually did become manager but I then used that analogy going to him like but if you look at the football like Lampard was able to get and Chelsea the massive club I hate to say it but it's true they're a massive club he was able to get that job quite easily right but actually when you look at the black community it's not as easy so I was like it's more subliminal so as much as you don't think it's bad because no one's like I say no one people are still getting like beat up killed etc et cetera, not as many, but it's subtle.

24:55It's about the infrastructures, it's about the opportunities. So I had to use that example to explain it. He literally got it, he got it. He will never say that to someone else again. He's just like, it's just changed. So it's all about intention. And you kind of know when people are saying something out of like their biases or what their lived experience is, but you can tell their intent. If someone's not willing to, you know, learn and meet you where, like where you're at, that's the problem, right? So I think you always can judge like how far people are. And I've always remember this diagram that Jess Malley, she does an amazing like discrimination kind of training.

25:29And I just remember this diagram in terms of like some people are like close to that centre. Some people are just outright racist. And then actually they believe what they believe. You're never going to change them. Some people have had incidences and they've done. That's where their beliefs come from. Some people have never met, you know, I'm talking about a black person ever. So they don't know. Right. They don't. They haven't had that experience of a black person in their community. So all those different people, you can meet them. There's certain conversations you can have. I'm not saying that everyone deserves a conversation because some people are just outright racist.

26:02There is no help in them. And actually, you just got to like say that's a lost cause. But there are some people where it's sometimes things that they've just heard or things that they think they know. They don't truly believe it, but it's just what they've been told. And then you can take them on that journey to be like, this is the truth. So I think we've always got that intuition. We always know. We always know. It's hard to explain unless you're from a marginalised community, but you get a gut feeling and always trust your gut and you kind of know. Yeah. I mean, the world and the country couldn't be more divided than it is right now.

26:37If anything, it feels like we've come or we're coming. Back to, especially because of the whole immigration. You know, and I, I moved, I moved from where I grew up in North London to Southeast London, which if you know your geographies, you know, the two shall never meet. I crossed over the river. My family still, my family still make the jokes around, have you got your passport? You know, all that sort of stuff. And, and I have to say moving there opened my eyes to a, a different culture community upbringing that I I never knew yeah I never knew my stepson plays for a a reasonably well-known grassroots club where um some of the players have have progressed into you know semi-professional professional careers um and I would say they are from some of the marginalized backgrounds and so I'm I'm still learning about this stuff and there's a lot about my community that I don't know I choose not to engage with because I don't uh I don't abide or live by that particular uh values those those particular values I have my own you know spiritual values and so understanding that I think is so important now you know there's a lot of stuff that's happened over the last few years with um with the black communities I think I still struggle now sometimes to say the word black because I I don't know if it's received in a derogatory term because I don't see color yeah I see someone who is similar to me as in of course I see I see it but I don't differentiate yeah um so when I say it I'm like but it's a fact I'm I'm even now I'm texting and I haven't even said the word um so I think it is really interesting because when stuff comes around in the office I don't always engage and read it yeah but at the same time stuff goes around about my community, I don't engage in media.

28:37You know, it's just, I tend to be focused on what I'm focused on at that time. And I tend to dip into stuff when I want to know more. Um, but I guess with all of that in mind, you know, there, you know, are there specific triggers in the workplace that really grind, you know, your gears or, or, or bring out the worst in you? And it might be around, you know, uh, race or it might be just around you know just general because i think what i want people to understand is that as a leader yeah we're not immune to this stuff yeah yeah we just have learned over time how to manage that yeah that's very true so i'd love to you know understand are there specific triggers for you that kind of yeah there's a there's a few um i'm trying to think of the apart from when football doesn't go your way but then to be fair i must admit because everyone knows i'm very vocal about being an article fan people show me sympathy like that's what i do enjoy that people are like sorry that's my natural state you're a die-hard football fan yeah i really like generally i do and that's even that's an interesting one because even i joined the industry like people didn't really believe like they're like you're like yeah yeah like you're a woman you don't like you surely don't like football i was like generally it's my favorite past time i watch it like if i don't go to the games i watch it um so that took a long time for that my other half does as well just to be clear she looks at me and actually says and i don't mind she probably won't listen to this um she's like why can't you be more manly and i'm like i do the diy i cook i clean i do loads of stuff leave the football to you just like you know i coach you know our step-son's like yeah you know anyway sorry we should be friends yes um but yeah so triggers is interesting so i would say one of the biggest triggers is i think music that's been played in the office i think it's really interesting because i think when i started media like in 2008 showing my age so just after like the whole recession stuff it was always a bit like who puts music on in the office and I used to always remember that there was once I put because I'm from East London so I listened to at the time was like very much grime music like hip-hop around me as well as like you know India like my music taste is very eclectic and I often like to shock people every so often just to be like just because you think I'm black and I like certain music every so often you know I will go to like a Kings of Leon concert or a Killers concert.

31:00But there was once I put something on and I can't even remember what it is. I think it was like a, I don't know, like a Kano song. And then someone walked past and they were like, that's so ghetto. And I was just like, oh, man. And that's just, and the song, I think it was Night Night, actually. So it wasn't even, it was one of his like really slow songs. I was a bit like, just because you hear it, he's not singing, he's rapping or emceeing, should I say. and because it was from a black artist we just naturally go it is ghetto and I think from there I used to be like not any someone was asked me to put music on I support and the safest genre that I was into was probably that was like what I want is this is garage because I was like like that appeases everyone right exactly so like but I have a trigger point because every time a song comes on that is from black origin I do get a bit like I still even to this day even though like now like music is a bit more like you know it's been mainstream all those kind of genres I still get that little oh is someone going to say something that I might have to then address or do I choose to ignore it and I think that's that's sometimes my my trigger points where I'm like what what mode do I go down so that's one of them uh and then another one I would say is obviously work in the media industry and it's like when people talk about jollies and they're talking about personnel in terms of like, oh, who should we invite?

32:24Should we invite that person because they're like really fun or this person? Oh no, we can't fight that person because they, they're like quite quiet. And that triggers me because I'm like, again, it's making a judgment. Obviously coming from a marginalized community, we are judged all the time. And actually the stereotypes, there's biases attached to you. So when I hear that in the media sense, it really does trigger me. I think when we were talking before and I told you a story where someone actually a media owner did actually say to me they can't invite me to ibifa because i don't do any drugs and i was i remember and it was a lunchtime and i was a bit like what and actually sitting there and i was like trying to it was weird it was a really weird conversation i was trying to justify why i should be and why was that why was that wrong and i really remembered i was like actually it's not even worth it like why am i even engaging but i think that's a trigger word in terms of like actually when people try to judge people based on what they see or like oh they don't drink so they were and i'm like but that's a choice that they've made and actually if they're happy to be in certain environments you need why not give them the opportunity you can't just make a snapshot judgment that because they don't drink this means this they are x or because they don't do drugs they are x or because they are black they do not ski i do ski and i snowboard fyi but it's and it's stuff like but it is stuff like that there's so many biases that like are so subtle call you sharps you need to come back on yeah sorry we need you back on to this this uh this part but it's all those things that's true i'm basically just saying everything that everyone always thinks but i think like it's those certain things that you hear those conversations you're just like don't make a snapshot judgment about someone because you've never encountered someone like that so i remember someone uh this was way back in the day where someone didn't drink and they're like i don't trust that someone who doesn't drink what what what does that even mean well so this is this is a really interesting point so um i think i shared with you i'm i'm yeah uh 20th May 2008 I made a decision that was my last drink and you know 17 years later a day at a time I remain sober yeah I cannot tell you how many times I've heard the expression around um can't really trust them they don't drink yeah you know or if I say to someone I don't drink they become really uncomfortable really quickly as in like they either justify their behavior or they you know I think sometimes just find it hard to, or move in a different direction.

34:45Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which I couldn't give two hoots. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And to your point, if someone says to me, we only need people that are going to get, you know, I'm like, off you go then. Off you go, exactly. I don't feel, I think I made peace with it a long time ago. So to hear that, it feels so regressive. Yeah. Because the world today is just not like that. It's moved on. you like to think and I think I'm in a simple place to you I'm a bit like I know I'm a vibe so you're missing out if I'm not there but but you have but you get this as you said you have to go on that journey yourself you have to go actually their uncomfortableness is about them more so than me but this industry is all about you know reputation and like all these different things so it's quite hard for some some people to probably move from that headspace but I like to think like you know this project that you're doing which is amazing like and the conversation that you're happening is opening up that up to people to know that actually, oh, people have gone through what I've gone through.

35:39Like, you know, I might not be ready to make those kind of like, you know, decisions now or that be vocal about certain things now, but in future I can get there. So yeah, I think those are the main tricks. And another one, sorry, I'm just, I'm on the roll. I think this is one that's related to work as well, which is quite interesting where people try to profile you based on clients. So they'll be like, I remember when I was working at one of the many agencies I mentioned before. That's a good thing about working at so many agencies. No one can know which one I'm talking about. That was the whole point of working at five different agencies.

36:12Sorry, I digress. So one of the agencies I worked at, there was a really luxury client that I was like, oh, I would love to work on this client because with a press background, I was like, they do loads of print, like this is my time to shine. And I kept getting fobbed off of like, oh no, they don't need to like, you know, people of your level. I think I was account manager at the time and I was a bit like, oh, okay, fine. to it that is gospel. And then lo and behold, you know, three months later, they put an account manager on. Then I was a bit like, what, what, why is that? And I kind of knew, you know, actually, when you looked at the team, that whole luxury team, they all looked the same.

36:47They were, they were female, which actually you think that, you know, I am a female, but there was one stark difference. And I think the main thing was, you know, my background is I'm from East London, You know, like to some of my East London friends, I sound quite like well-spoken, but in industry, you know, I use, I still use slang here, there. And whenever I say, when everyone hears me talk, some people from East London can tell I'm from East London. Love it. But yeah, and that's the thing. I think when I joined industry, I kind of like looked for that as well. Because I think being part of East London, being from East London was such a key part of my identity.

37:18But going back to that incident, I just remember thinking, oh, they just didn't think I fit into that luxury profile. And actually, you know, we were talking about pitches and stuff earlier. Like when you're doing pitches, you have to do the team sheet and everyone's like, who's got experience of working on this? You profile people in that way. So I think, especially as now becoming more senior, it's like, that still triggers me from that incident happened to me when I was at that age of trying to make sure that I'm calling out or noticing those things for other people. like they might not appear like they will thrive on this account, but we don't know that we can't make snap judgments based on all the different, like, you know, intersex that we all make up as human beings.

38:01It's a funny one. Like I think that, so when I started producing some videos, it must be eight, nine months, no, six, seven months ago now, you know, there was a part of me that immediately felt judged, even though I hadn't done anything. And then I started putting out there, you know, there's someone on my team, a girl called Stella Nettie. She's amazing. She kind of just helped me get up and running because she does it herself on the side and massive props to her because I don't think I'd be sitting here today if she wasn't there supporting. And Stella's still early in her career. But, you know, she, as well as many others online, I saw just gave me the confidence to do it.

38:46And I, and I generally have made peace with what people think. I don't, I don't care what someone thinks about me if I have pure intentions and I'm doing it for the reasons that I believe in. And so when I started doing it, um, I thought to myself, Oh, people are going to like, Oh, just a camera, me talking, who am I authority? And then I started doing it myself. I started to edit, record and edit myself. And then this opportunity came up and and i thought oh this is quite this could be quite controversial yeah and then i thought well no you know what it doesn't have to be a witch hunt no no it doesn't have to be about any individual organization yeah it has to be about the topic the topic and elevating it and exactly and so so i think everything that you're sharing there for me is so important um because you know whether it's the music yeah you know whether it is um you know uh building the right team yeah you know whether it is uh certain conversations that might come up and just acknowledging them yeah i just think for people to hear that yeah i think is is probably a digestible bite-sized bit of information that i hope can pincer move us a little bit further on in in in where we are now i guess with that in mind yeah uh and i go back to i go back to can yeah but but not as you don't have to answer in in the context of can has there been a moment um uh uh i guess in your career whether it's a single piece of feedback a failure yeah a realization where you've kind of stood yourself in front of the mirror physically or metaphorically and just said to yourself i need to do something or i need to change or i need to speak up um Hmm, that's a really good question.

40:42I think, I think we all, I think the black community had a whole movement when the murder of George Floyd kind of happened. I think this is interesting and this is going to sound a little bit controversial, but I think for a long time I, I was so aware of like my, you know, being a black woman, being from East London. you know I was lucky enough to go to university but actually what I found interesting when I joined Mead and not a lot of people knew like where I grew up they didn't know where Forest Gate was and I thought it's all about Forest Hill but when Olympics came I was like yes so where the Olympics is down the road from there is where I live so I was very much aware of all these different things so I was very much like I want to be known for the good the work that I do the good work that I do in terms of like I'm going to be the best press buyer or I'm going to be the best digital planner.

41:29Like I'm going to do all these things. It was very work focused. I kind of did shy away from the D &I kind of cause cause I don't really want to be known for that because there's also stigma around that in terms of like, well, that I kind of felt that there was like people be like, oh, they don't do any work, but they, all they do is talk about, you know, D &I causes. And I was very aware that I've heard that comment that I was a bit like, I don't want to be put in that box. Um, and I think I was talking to my friend and I was a bit like, oh, like, you know, we're not doing enough in the community in terms of when George Floyd was murdered.

42:01And then actually I was making comments about, you know, Black History Month that like happening in different, different organisations, including like, you know, my own. She turned around to me, she was just like, so who's the most senior like black person in your organisation? And then after I listed like, like a few and I was just like, oh, then I think it's me. Then she was just like, instead of complaining about something, do something about it. And I It was a very humbling moment, but it was actually a fair comment because you can't like I was sitting there criticizing, going people aren't doing enough.

42:32People are not doing this. People are not doing that. And she was just a bit like, but as a black woman, do you not have a responsibility? And I was just like, actually, yeah, because actually I looked at all my like my colleagues and a lot of them I was mentoring at the time as well, actually. And I'm like, actually, am I doing them a disservice by not showing up in certain spaces as well? So, you know, I'm not saying to put that pressure on anyone because I think I've had loads of conversation about, you know, don't put the pressure on. You're not one to save the whole community. But I think when there's certain incidences, especially times of crisis, I think that's what we need to all pull together.

43:05And that was probably one of my crowning moments where I was like, that's true. And actually, to be fair, that comment has, I mean, we talked about it before, like the IPA, I list and like trailblazers. It's actually, it actually kickstarted something in me in terms of like, actually, I can do something about it. I can help and support. Do you feel like you are? Yeah, I do think, I like to think I am. I mean, I'll let everyone be the judge of that. But I think even doing stuff like this, it's like speaking up. I think it's highlighting certain situations. And, you know, some of the stuff we've been talking about, I just hope that's helped people, make people feel comfortable.

43:37But I think, I definitely think there's certain initiatives. Like we, I basically did a DJ battle at the Black History Month event at the Seven Stars. And I did it, it basically launched. Do you DJ? I don't DJ. I just host. I mean, you know, many talents, not that one, but I hosted with my brother actually, which actually that was a tactical decision because I was like, for me to be truly authentic, who else is going to hold me accountable? But my brother who is like one year older than me. So like my life, I've never known my life without him. He's always been there. Um, yeah, my older sister too, but me and my brother are very close in our age.

44:10So I basically launched this event and actually just seeing people really like coming together, really enjoying the event, like, Like, and just being like, seeing like people from the black community just able to like enjoy music in a safe space. And actually not even just the agency, but externally as well. I think doing stuff like that where people are like, oh, we've now got a space where we can actually just enjoy ourselves without having to think, oh, are we allowed to play that song? Can we dance in that way? Can we, this is the food that we eat and actually like sharing of the wider kind of industry.

44:41So I think they spurred on good initiatives and good things like, you know, recently with a committee of six other women, we launched Women in Trading. So like that was like an initiative where we thought, you know what, there is women in trading, but there's not enough. What can we do as a group of like seven women? What can we do to help, you know, highlight the women in trading, build a community, also bring our allies along with us, along with us with it as well. So we've built a fantastic community of like 30 women and many allies, male allies as well. And actually, that's even seen a difference.

45:15We host these like open door sessions on a Friday and actually just having everyone there together talking about issues that they might be facing within the trading world or just issues they're facing within the industry and actually having that community of people. because I think I've been quite lucky in terms of I've worked at a lot of agencies as I keep touching upon but the great thing about that is actually like I'm able to connect and build a community wherever I've gone so like if anyone's like do you know someone at WPP I was like yes I do do you know anyone at like Pubicis yes I do so like it's very much like utilizing my community and actually I've been lucky enough to have those people I can just call on or you know you know just like call and say can we meet up have a coffee with or whatever but not everyone's fortunate to have that or even has a confidence to reach out to certain people so I like to think that I like to connect people where I can if it if that makes it a better day for you that's great if that opens up an opportunity to have a conversation with someone that you know thought you could have an industry that if I can do that for someone that is that's all I want I've already I've already got um I've already got an idea oh have you that I want to talk to you about after I also don't want this to end, but sadly, sadly, we are, we are coming, coming to a positive conclusion.

46:30Um, but we, I guess we, we try to end each of these with, um, what we call the permission slip. Yep. So, um, we want to give people, I guess, permission to either speak up, uh, uh, support or stop something that either they're doing or they see in and around them. So if you could give permission to people in our industry to do, you know, one thing, what would that be? I think I'll go back to like the Cannes situation, like what Hannah Barnett did. It's everyone has permission to stop something that's not right. And I think with race, I think it's always interesting how some people, even when you talk about before, and you're like even saying the word black, you feel uncomfortable, which I'm like, we are black.

47:15That's fine. Say it. But I think actually... That wasn't uncomfortable when I said it, was it? Oh, no, it wasn't at all. I loved it, actually, to be fair. I'm a black woman. But I think it's one of those things where, like, actually, when something is fundamentally wrong, everyone has the right to step in into a situation. It shouldn't always just be on the person that's being victimised. And I think I'll go back to another story. I went on a... I don't go on many jollies, by the way. But I went on a jolly. I'm joking. That is a joke. Yeah, sorry. I should have even said it was a joke. but I went on a jolly to a horse racing event and um we walked into a bar in Liverpool sounds like a joke by the way I know it does sound like a joke walked to the bar like kept not joking so walked into the bar and then literally um one person from another agency was like looked around the room was just like oh subs do you know you're the only colored person in the room and bone am I were Liverpool um and I was just like and there was two of my colleagues at the time there they scarpered so quickly like I looked around and I was a bit like what and then I was I had to address two things with him um a we don't use the word colored anymore that's very and he was I was born in the 70s I was like that's not an excuse the second thing was the fact that I was a bit like why are you highlighting the my the fact that I am different like I've walked into this bar and I'm just like looking at like what I was looking at what drink I was going to have and I was a bit like why did you feel the need to single me out in that situation um and actually what makes you think that I don't notice I'm the only person there.

48:41I just choose not to focus on it because I'm all about people. I don't look at, I'm the only one. Of course, there's certain situations where if I am the only one and there's a problem with that, I'm like, why am I the only one? Why am I the only woman? Why am I the only person of colour, et cetera? But in that situation, that wasn't the case. I was a bit like, we're in a bar in Liverpool. We're in Liverpool. Look at the population. It's mostly white. But so I had to address those incidents. Anyway, so I came back to my two colleagues who scarpered very quickly and I was like, did you hear that?

49:08And one of them was like, yeah, but we thought Saps was best for you to deal with it. And I was like, what? And then I was going through all these different scenarios. I was like, if it was like, if he tried to like sexually assault me, would you have stepped in or would have like all these different things, probably they would have, right? But because it was a race incident, they felt that they couldn't because they were white. But I was like, of course you can, because you knew it was wrong. So you have the right to then step in, right? And I think obviously we can go down a rabbit hole in terms of like you know if you hear something always checking with the person to see if they want to flag it or report it to HR or whatever it might be but I think in that instance when it's so overt like people do appreciate you have permission to step in when something is fundamentally not not right everyone has the permission to step in and actually race is one of those things I find that a lot of people don't normally step in because I think people don't know where the line is etc but we all have that gut feeling I'll go back to the gut feeling we all have that gut feeling If something doesn't feel right, it probably isn't.

50:06So we all have the permission to step into a situation. Wow. There we go. I didn't plan that. Great. That was epic. Honestly, I can't tell you how grateful I am and hopefully the industry are for you joining Behind the Titles today. Thank you so much for inviting me. You know, we are early on this journey. We don't know where this will go. But, you know, this is about leaders showing up differently. and I couldn't think of anyone that epitomizes more than what you've done today. And I've learned a huge amount in the process as well. So thank you for joining SARPS, my new friend. There we go. And I hope that we can do many things together in the future.

50:48Definitely. Well done as well. Thank you very much. Thank you.

51:01Michelle Sarpong: Save time and money with stamps.com. Over 4 million businesses have skipped the line with stamps.com. Join them to save up to 90 % off carrier rates from your computer or phone right now. Print postage for certified mail, registered mail, and packages in seconds. Then schedule a pickup right from your home or office. For a limited time, go to stamps.com and use code podcast for a free welcome gift. Taxes and fees apply.