Creating the Culture You Want to Work In

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0:32Welcome to Behind the Title, where leaders show up differently. Today I'm joined by a very old friend, Pippa Van Praag, VP of Operations at Perkbox. Pippa joined me to talk about all things work, maternity, and being a working parent. Importantly, what it's like to be a woman at a table in the world of technology today. The reason why I wanted to come on this podcast today was to just share some of the experiences that I've had, some of the moments that I look back on my career and regret and wish I could change and some of the things that have actually made me a much more resilient leader. So yeah, I hope you enjoy some of those stories.

1:13Pippa, welcome. Thank you so much for coming. Thank you for having me. It's been a very long time we haven't seen each other. I think it's 15 years. Yeah, it's a long, long time. It might be longer. Yeah, I think it might be. But if you could maybe just give them an introduction to yourself what you do and then why it was important to come on to behind the title. Sure. So I'm Pippa. The first part of my career, the first like 10 years or so of my career, I worked in various different kind of communications, PR teams in-house, everything from like big PLC to international charities, like a real mix.

1:44And then I'd say I'd spent the last eight or so years in the tech world. So I moved from kind of comms and traditional comms into tech with a comms role actually initially and then since then it's just been a whirlwind of taking like different opportunities and different roles I'll take anything going broaden my experience massively and now I work at Perkbox an HR tech company I'm their vice president of operations and oversee kind of the day-to-day running of everything across our global offices I guess the the question I ask everyone is you know behind the title is is all about leaders showing up differently yeah obviously I sent you through a note and you were like absolutely happy to get involved why do you think things like this are really important and why is it important for you to be on here today for me personally it's been like a really amazing but challenging journey at different points I think as I've got older and more senior I feel the weight and the kind of the responsibility to lead differently.

2:49Like when I was younger, I didn't feel like a lot of doors were opened for me. I often felt like some, often women weren't always the best allies in businesses, you know, and I would feel that kind of pressure of not being too senior or just like not getting the support that I think I needed. And so I really don't want to lead like that. You know, I spend a lot of my time mentoring different people in the business, particularly women. and I take that really really seriously because I think that we all have an opportunity to to just lead with a little bit more humanity basically. I'm fascinated how is the tech world versus I guess the corporate communications world they're very different either pace setup structure.

3:35Yeah it's much faster in tech it's funny because I used to work in comms and thought that I worked at absolute pace and you know what it's like in a really busy comms team when you're dealing with like a reactive PR nightmare and you're trying to do a massive internal communications change program or mergers and acquisitions, you think you're working at such pace and often we were. I think tech takes that a step further, to be honest with you, just because the pace of change within technology itself is so fast. Like if you think about what's happening now and like the world and AI, every day that you come up with like a new idea or you're trying to innovate on your product, you're like being outpaced by the market so you've got to you've got to be the kids oh and definitely by my kids um so you've got to almost be like you know three steps ahead instead of just one step ahead but i i love that pace i don't think i could work in anything other do you think there's a stigma around uh women in tech in particular either attracting or even retaining talent because i assume once people get in it it may not be as they thought it would be Yeah, I think it's a bit of both.

4:44Even in just the last eight years that I've been in it, I've seen massive progress, though. I remember when I first started, the majority of our product and engineering teams were mostly men. And, you know, where I am now, I think it's like a really even split. Like some of our most innovative, brilliant product managers are women. Some of our incredible designers in that team are women, too. So I think there's been a real shift. I think where there's still a long way to go is when you start looking at like senior leadership teams and exec teams. It's still common to see like a mostly male exec board.

5:20Again, very, very fortunate where I am. We've got a real even split on our exec team. For me, that was a really big, big decision as well. Like, can I be part of a team that feels inclusive? And yeah, I've got that here, but I don't think that that's that common in the sector. It's funny, I'm sitting here as you're talking and I'm like, obviously I know you from, and you know me from when we were younger. From when I was a child. Both of us. And now I see you sitting here, incredibly recognised career, seems like fairly seasoned. And I'm like, wow, like amazing to see you now to, you know, I guess when we knew each other.

5:56We like to get behind scenes here. So, you know, the backstage pass, we call it. and understand, you know, was there a moment in your career where everything looked fine, you know, but actually, you know, behind... It's like, how long do you have? Well, I mean, we have as long as you want. There are two moments in my career that I think really defined how I am today. The first was when I had my daughter, Ruby. So she's 10 now. And when I had her, I was in an exceptionally busy comms team. I was the first one to have a baby. The majority of the team were actually women, but I just happened to be the first one to go away and kind of have a child.

6:37And I think that was really difficult for so many reasons. One, I was quite young. I don't think at the time I thought I was young. I think I was about 27, 28. Looking back now, I'm like, oh, my gosh, you were such a, I feel like I was still a baby myself. I think the world has moved on. People are having kids later. Yeah, and they do. And so, you know, outside of work, I had friends that were having children. But in work, I was absolutely the first. and not of all time but in my team I was the first to have a baby and so I'd gone from working all the hours that I wanted to work I'm an absolute workaholic by nature I would often be in the office till 10 11 o 'clock at night by choice you know no one was forcing me to be there and I kind of left work in in that world went and had a baby and then had a really really difficult birth with her I was in a lot of pain physically for a really really long time and it was probably the first time I really looking back now was not in a good place like mentally either and I think you know I was I was on a huge amount of painkillers for a really long time um obviously having a baby in itself is a whirlwind you know not sleeping at all and I think I just got to a really kind of like dark place and I think the challenge was I had friends outside who were it seemed to me were like bossing it they were like you know having their babies off to meet friends you know like at the park or a coffee shop like a few days later and I was just like at home when you know my husband was back to work after one week in this like really difficult place and I didn't really seek any help during that time I wish I had if I could go back in time I would have gone and got therapy I don't know why I didn't I don't think you really recognize it when you're in it that was a challenge when I got back to work so my natural instinct then was I need to get back to work because that's where I felt like I knew what I was doing take the full maternity period I cut my maternity short I went back early okay because all I could get in my head was I will feel fine when I go back to work when I can get back to doing like what I know like and I don't get me wrong I am obsessed with my children like I adore them loudly like I'm that one in the playground where I'm like all the kisses all the smooches and my kids are like oh my god please go but in my head it was the thing that was going to like save me was just to get back to work so I threw myself back into work probably five six months and even even while I was off a project had come up at work that they really were struggling with and asked if I would do some consultancy so it was almost like they knew they could come to you yeah yeah I mean I am that person like we'll get into that a bit later that's no I identify with that because I'm very similar yeah albeit I have a you have some boundaries well someone else sets the boundaries in the house yeah okay you know yeah yeah I think my husband tries but yeah so I kind of I kind of went back to work I'm in this environment where none of my peers at that point have kids I go from being able to work all the hours to like a short day right you know you've got to pick up your kids from nursery and that whole thing you know I just I found it really really difficult because I just didn't feel like I belonged any I didn't feel like I was doing a good job at home I didn't feel like I was doing a good enough job at work because I'd gone from only knowing how to work all hours of the day to that's not possible anymore and no one at work could relate at all to me but I ended up leaving that job and to this day I maintain it was like one of my biggest career regrets because I loved it there right absolutely loved it but I just couldn't in my head I just couldn't make it work and then I had like it and sorry just just just to unpack that so you couldn't make it work because culturally you felt you were in a different place to a lot of your team yeah and therefore you felt uncomfortable or i couldn't find the balance i couldn't like find how i was going to be as good at my job anymore okay without working all those hours you know and and you do one of the things that everyone says when you have kids you become the most productive that you're you've ever been because you've got finite hours then and you're trying to get all of the same deliverables done with much less time and you are you're really productive but I just yeah I don't know I just got it in my head that I you know it wasn't working and I just didn't feel like I was delivering either way and I just kind of left handed in my notice I remember my boss was like no what why what are you talking about you know really surprised and I walked away from a job that I absolutely loved and yeah I still I still think about it all the time I actually bumped into some people from that company at an event the other day and went up and was like this was one of my favorite places I've ever worked um they I think they thought I was I had absolutely lost my mind they had no idea who I was I think the second time I was like I knew what I was doing first time around was a big shock to the system you know it's interesting before I met my other half I was not dissimilar to you and yeah coming into their life so my now stepson yeah I was in the office till 10 11 p.m at night and I'd say it's taken a good five years yeah to find balance and I'm still finding balance yeah I still love my job I still you know do do all hours that I can but I'm more aware of it now and I'm more supportive of her building her career have been for the last seven eight years been championing that but also the people that I work with yeah you know you said there was a second oh the second yeah there I'm wondering if that's more.

12:17Yeah, the second time was I basically let myself burn out terribly. Again, I don't think I would have accepted or said that at the time. This was many, many years later working in tech. I'd got back into the habit of working all hours of the day. I was back to back meetings 24-7 in a very, very kind of high pressure, stressful job. And I think the shift was the company had been owned by private equity. and then we sold out and the company like just changed overnight in terms of culture and values and I think that was a really big lesson for me is that I actually will always be someone who will work over the hours.

12:55I love working. I love, love working and I actually do really well under pressure. That's where I perform best but when that doesn't align with your values all of a sudden all of that work really conflicts with who you are. If you're aligned and you're really you know pleased with what you're building and you believe in what you're building I would work all hours like under the sun but when that happens and those things don't align anymore I think it's it's just prime for burnout and again the more that I kind of wanted to fix it and overcompensate the more I worked and then you're still juggling two kids still doing all of like the life admin which is never ending um you know all of the play dates and the planning school holidays and cooking cleaning you know all of the stuff that goes along with like running a house or having kids I was just overcompensating everywhere so I was like cleaning my house like obsessively I would like try and like declutter everything so in my head the the less stuff we had the easier it'd be to like keep up with everything you know um but also working more and more and more and it's really funny because your body has a really incredible way of letting you know when like enough is enough yeah and two years prior to that I'd um I'd really injured my back I this is life lesson for anyone do not do kettlebell squats when you've had children um I literally not long like postpartum you know a few years prior had gone back to the gym way too quickly slip two discs in the bottom of my back um which I used to be I feel bad saying this now but I used to be the person that would like roll my eyes when someone said they had a bad back I cannot tell you how painful slipping a disc in your back is it is honestly like overwhelming pain anyway I'd done that a few years earlier and it would flare every now and then you know I'd had like MRIs and you know all the painkillers that under the sun but it just wasn't getting better and the more stressful my job got, the more it was flaring more regularly.

14:59And I just got to the point where like my back just like gave out. And it was like the fourth time that year. So I was, again, back on really high painkillers, trying to work, trying to like navigate getting like kids to school. I couldn't even move. I remember just like getting on a call with my boss, like just a routine, like one-to-one. And I just like started crying and I was like, I'm really sorry, but I think I'm done. And he was like, what do you mean? I was like, no, I think I'm done. and he was really great I mean he was like take six weeks out you know take a break and I was like I could do all of those things the problem is I know that when I get back it will be exactly the same like I just my heart was not in it anymore so I wasn't expecting to handle my notice but like it just like came out of came out of my mouth and he said to me then he was like the funny thing is give it a few months and I bet your back gets better and that was nearly two years ago and I haven't had a i haven't had a flare-up since and i just think it's interesting you know a lot of it is is linked to well it's i've got a a very good friend who who had chronic back pain a long long time but he took a more holistic approach um through stretching diet yeah managing stress and actually it was a total transformation he had two back operations wow yeah and those didn't work uh didn't work yeah so that's the problem people like you can have it done it all i went to see all like the top like backs and they were like the problem is if you don't fix exactly you'll just slip another desk so um it's interesting because there's a theme here with with leaders yeah right and it's either burnout or it's compromising on their personal and mental well-being not necessarily committing as much to their family and uh and enjoyment and i talk about there's like certain frameworks that i've learned so like the ace framework um you're nodding so you know it so but for those that don't know you know it's every day trying to ace your day so uh one you know sense of achievement whatever that may be i could like literally learn a new skill i could take the rubbish out but it's that sense of i've done something yeah you know connection so who have I connected with today like a real connection that we've you know we've obviously made after after 15 plus years and then what am I doing to enjoy and I feel like I learned that a couple of years back I hadn't taken time off sick and I took it off um it was actually early COVID I was really struggling mentally I was signed off work and you know I learned this framework and it's been revolutionary and I don't sit there every day writing out I did at the beginning yeah um but I think leads me to kind of ask were there moments where you stayed silent you know and that might not necessarily be about you it might be about just stuff in the workplace and was there kind of a time when you wish you'd actually said something yeah loads of times I mean just I mean there's still times there are still I don't think that ever ends actually I think it'd be lovely to say we get you know bolder and braver and we say all the things that we wish we had said but there are reasons why you don't at the time you know there's nuances there's politics there's you know but there there are times that I I look back on now I wish I had said like help me help me through this period and like actually spoken out rather than just like leaving like feeling like leaving was my only option and had like just a really frank conversation with with my boss who is still a really good friend of mine you know it's ridiculous right she was a friend and I still didn't feel like I could sit there and be like I don't know what's going on with me but this isn't and was that for fear of being judged or I don't know to be honest with you I think maybe pride I'm not really one to say that I am not okay yeah I probably am still that way by the way like I'm no better at that I think in terms of like a time that I wish I spoke up that I have got better at is I was in one role in a very kind of corporate role and used to sit in these meetings if any of the people who I used to work with are listening to this will know exactly what I'm talking about I used to sit in these meetings where like one of our senior senior leaders used to really really bully a couple of members of the team just like would hone in on them straight away and it was so uncomfortable and you would just sit there First of all, you didn't want it to be you, but also you just feel so uncomfortable.

19:29Yeah. And she would just like, yeah, she would just like laser focus on that and she just would not let up, you know? And I would pull her aside afterwards and say, that was not okay. Like, that was too harsh. Like, but I wouldn't do it in the room. What was the reaction when you did it off outside of the room? Pretty defensive, obviously. No one likes to be told not to lead that way. But would concede and be like, okay, you know, you're right. And then like send a quick apology. But, you know, like next week, it'd be the same thing all over again. So it was like really making no difference. And I do think about that a lot.

19:58Like that's a regret. And I didn't for lots of reasons. Again, you know, like I was like, you know, breadwinner in my family. Like I don't have the luxury of not working. I've got two kids, mortgage, you know. And so you do have that fear of what, you know, what will happen if I call that out in this room. But now I'm much more like there are less Fs given, you know. And so if I see that now, I mean, again, I'm very lucky where I work. Like the culture is amazing and it's fail fast. You know, we make mistakes, we learn, we move on. But, you know, you'll always get someone who goes a little bit too hard on someone or call someone out inappropriately or whatever it might be.

20:37And I'm much better now at calling that out in the room. It's still uncomfortable. I still don't love doing it. but as a leader I think it's our responsibility to make sure that you you do I still think today maybe it's seniority yeah that people don't always feel comfortable I say quite a lot of my team you know it's about managing up yeah and down yeah um because I might sometimes experience conversations and it's the first time I'm hearing about them and so the question for me is well how long's this been going on and have you had a conversation? And there might be, not to minimise, there might be small things, there might be larger things, but I encourage a really open dialogue and conversation that doesn't work for everyone.

21:24No, yeah, I get that. You know, there are forums in every company, you know, to speak up either to, you know, your line manager or, you know, other company routes. But I often find that there's the same triggers, which evoke these feelings, you know, these reactions. So one of the triggers for me is I find it really hard when there's a lot of delegation and there's not a huge amount of accountability.

21:50Pippa van Prague: Yeah. And so, and that's because I'm probably a bit like you. I'm like, can we just get it done? And therefore I have to manage my own expectations around that and know that not everyone works at my pace, not everyone works the same as me. I literally have this conversation every week. Yeah, you know, we're in a diverse workforce. Are there certain triggers during your career that I think have accelerated some of the kind of negative or challenging moments that you've had in any of these companies you've worked in? Yeah, I mean, I think there's much like you. I work at pace and for some people that's really great.

22:27And for some people it's probably a little bit chaotic. So I have to really manage myself. myself my leader now is always like you can't fix everything and I'm like I know but I really want to yes now yeah and I want to do it yesterday um he's like yeah but you can't fix everything how funny is this we are so similar yeah like in a working sense uh but never would have never would have called it like this yeah so yeah it's really funny and it's something that I actively work on a lot and I also when I hire I'm very very honest with people about what it is like to work with me this makes me sound like really awful but this is the same i'm just like i i can be a little bit chaotic because i like to work really fast and i really like to get and that like total accountability like go and do it i don't care how many mistakes that you you make just like own it and then we learn fast and we'll fix it and that's great for some people but not for others so i'm very honest about what it's like working with me i guess growing up a little bit in terms of leadership would be i i really don't like it when people speak over or interrupt people especially women so i actively will say i don't think so and so was quite finished talking why don't we listen to the end of their point and then we can and i do that really purposefully now because i feel like with that tone yeah with that time i might was it scary it's like a teacher is it i was like i want me in that boardroom i think it's really important to allow people to to finish their train of thought or you know especially you know women i'm bad at that i'm actually talking over people yeah not purposely yeah sometimes again it comes back to the point like no i know the answer so let me just finish the sentence i'm really bad but but i'm also quite aware of it and so yeah i will actively either apologize in the moment yeah um or you know i've had moments sorry i interrupted you but i had moments i've had moments where it's hilarious by the way jesus can we cut that one um no but i've had moments where you could be in a room yeah and senior leaders want to move things on does that make sense because you just need to get an action out of it and move on yeah absolutely um and i'm not saying i'm perfect at it i also think i call it out because I'm also not good at it yeah my husband would say I talk over him all the time and finish his end decision must be hugely irritating but I think again I'm aware of it so I try and actively like correct myself and correct it for other people the other thing that I really I find personally like triggering is I hate not knowing the answer to things um and that's not possible right it's not possible to know the answer to every single question every data point across the whole business but still personally if someone puts me on the spot and asks me something and I don't know the answer my instant reaction is like blind panic because I'm such a people pleaser that I hate not knowing the answer which is ridiculous right because I would be the first to go we don't need to know all the answers just say you know I'd much prefer you to say oh I don't know I'll come back to you later but when it's me it's an instant confidence knock it's an instant I'm not I'm not good enough to be at this table but I think you're probably with 50 % of the working force I would say probably um do you feel sometimes that you're not worthy of the role that you have or the positions that you've previously held I get those imposter syndrome moments yeah um yes I think it's really deep-rooted I think there's a part of me that will always feel I don't belong there because I don't have a degree so I didn't go to university I mean, I did go to university and I left after one term and I just wanted to like go and work, which is what I did.

26:16Moved back to London, worked every day since then, moved out, you know, like that's what I wanted to do. But I think now that I'm older, I still hold this almost like shame that I'm like the only one at the exec table without a degree. I think I am. I actually don't know that. I think they've all got MBAs. and even though I've worked since I was 19 like not been out of work since 19 years old and so have all of that experience I still hold that I don't know embarrassment or shame that I I didn't finish uni I mean I never went to uni but but but I think that's why social mobility is so important nowadays yeah Jeff Bezos always talks about leaving a I mean it's a bit cliche but leaving a chair open yeah in a room yeah as the voice of the customer i think that sometimes within tech media communications we are very you know london centric and therefore you forget about the 70 of the rest of the population that's out there that don't necessarily experience or don't have uh it's a privilege but i know what you mean though all the same experience opportunities open yeah but yeah it's it's an interesting one i think um there's still more work to be done I'm sure if I ever had time for therapy they'd find a a pretty quick reason for that but um it's funny my sister's exactly the same she's like an a-type people pleaser workaholic very very very similar was there like a moment you looked metaphorically or physically in front of a mirror and was or was there a single piece of feedback or something that you received that kind of gave you realization that while she weren't going to change in totality because we know that we are of type and there's hard you know was there a single moment or realization where you thought i need to change something has to be different because i think that that's the bit that i struggle with sometimes so when i got into recovery i know that you know i was lost for a long time and uh and and kept myself you know isolated until you know a family member stood me in front of the mirror and said is this how you want to be in the world kind of thing yeah and I was like no and I that was you know physically in front of a mirror but I think it was actually more the second time around with like the burnout I think I was in a lot of pain physically with my back I was taking lots of painkillers I was working around the clock I was probably drinking too much wine it was getting close to Christmas and obviously so like you know stress is heightened you've got like loads going on kids are like you know so excited and frantic and I was just so unhappy and I think I just had this moment was like just next year cannot be more of the same I'm not being like the the snappy mom that's like short-tempered because I'm exhausted I'm not letting like my entire health fall to shit for that you know especially because my heart wasn't in it anymore I just I just knew that I I couldn't go into the next year and you know it's cliche right you know start of a new year and all of that stuff but it was really like a promise with myself that that that was not how I was going to be that was not how I was going to parent how I want to work or or not it's you know it's very much on me but it all boils down to how I want to parent like how I want to show up for my kids and I want them to see that like I'm hard working, that I love my job, which I do.

29:49And that, you know, anything good in life takes hard work. You know, it's not handed to you. You have to work hard to get anything that is worthwhile. But I also, you know, that they'll always be my priority. Them feeling, you know, secure and happy and, you know, like they are celebrated and, you know, that that will always be my number one. And I make no like qualms about that at work. I parent very, very loudly at work. I will be the first one to be like, sorry, can't make that. I've got sports day. And my six-year-old is in a tug of war. She literally came last in every single race. She was so happy.

30:30It's funny, actually, my stepson, I missed it last week because I was recording one of these. And he won in tug of war and he got the longest throw, you know, whatever. and if I'm honest with you see I I love them to pieces but I don't I don't regret not going it's just not I don't that's not a draw for me in terms of I coach his football team for example yeah that's nice and so I show up on a Friday most Fridays to training I'm there on the Sundays you know lugging the balls and you know also like giving your child feedback in a team and then him being like in front of the plate you know that's that's tough but um but I think um that whole point around just showing up quite loudly for your kids I think is I think it's really really important and I you know one of the things I will say you know I do like pace and I want you know I want radical kind of accountability but I also want flexibility I don't want people in my team ever to miss a life event like it's and actually my ceo who i work for now i worked for him years ago which is why i came on board here uh because yeah i love working for him he always was a big champion of that he's like you never miss a life event like this all comes and goes you know you work is important and you've got to love what you do but at the end of the day you know it's your family who will be there after all of it so you never miss a life event and i never miss a life event amazing i need to learn a thing or two in fact i might even might even cut that one out of the edit um and has there been has there been a moment in your family life where either your kids or your partner yeah i've just said yeah enough mummy enough yeah my husband that point um when i left uh during the burnout we were definitely like rowing more because i also was like obsessively talking about work to the point that I think he just got fed up like rightly so because I was trying to play it through in my head like I think I knew I needed to leave I knew that I was like burnt out but I couldn't almost come to terms with that didn't want to almost give up so I was like obsessively talking about it I was getting shorter like with the kids like my patience was was probably wearing thin his patience was wearing thin with me um and I just remember we yeah we ended up having this like blazing row one day the kids weren't there and we like never argue by the way like we're not really at home confrontational people at all so this was quite like you know like you remember those moments yeah and he I can't remember what he said but he he basically just kind of shouted at me and like told me like enough was enough actually I feel like that's what gave me the the license I think I had it in my notice the next week I hadn't even told him I was going to do it but i think in my head that moment was where i just went you know what there are bigger things there are more important things it is amazing though the the the ability or or the power that our families can have in kind of making us have that realization yeah and what it and it takes that rather than ourselves um yeah to see that automate that switch yeah i find it fascinating I need an ultimatum from someone which says enough is enough before I can actually pause.

33:59And I think that's really certainly the takeout I want people to have from this is that we talk about the permission slip. If you could give them a single piece of advice or permission to speak up or seek help or whatever it may be, what would that be for you? what permission would you grant to others that are either in the tech world and communications yeah a female leadership a male that might be struggling like what single piece of feedback would you give them i think it would be to stand up for the things that you just really believe in it's really it that's like easy advice right it's so much easier said than done i've said that before there are times i there are days every at the moment like when i should have handled that better or i could have done that meeting better or i shouldn't have said that to so and so but i think it's so important if there's something that you believe in at work like be that change you don't have to be on the leadership team to make change you don't have to you know manage a team everybody has the power to like make their working environment better for themselves and for everyone like I'm a big believer in the culture is only as good as like everyone puts into the culture so like if there's something that you see at work that you don't think is quite right or there is someone that you think is doing an amazing job and you know should be promoted I literally actively go to that manager be like I just wanted to say like they're doing an incredible job I'm sure you've noticed but I wanted to give that feedback and a lot of those things happen without anybody knowing that that's what you do you know it's not performative I think that's what's really important I think it's I talk a lot about like kind of sponsorship at work over mentorship um I do mentor some people as well but there are other people in the business who I really sponsor when they're not around and they'll never know that that happens but it's so important create the world that you want to work in because it's on all of us to do that um and that would be my permission slip amazing thank you so much for joining today this has been amazing quite cathartic to sit across from you and actually hear so many similarities it's probably I need to do my mirror moment at the moment and just kind of think about it but hugely appreciate you joining thank you thank you so much and look forward to you guys listening to the next episode

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