Finding Power in a Stammer

0:00I'm Danny White-Skorn and this is Behind the Title. I'm so excited for my guest to join us today, Will Lavin. I've worked with Will within Publicis for a couple of years now. Will looks after all operations on the PG1 account and what's really exciting is that he's going to give us an insight into some of the neurodiversity challenges that he faces today. His biggest one is his stammer.

0:22Will Lavin: I've had a stammer my whole life. I used to see it as a challenge but now I see it as a superpower. and I've spent many years of not wanting to speak but now I'm here wanting to speak to share my story but also to show that being neurodiverse isn't a hindrance it's a it's a adrenaline the most exciting journey that you'll be on because it shapes you to be the person who you really are.

0:53Good morning Will or should I say William as I just heard out there how are you today. No, I'm good. Thanks. Thank you so much for joining. We've known each other for a couple of years now. We work in the same organization. We don't work together. Really, for me, certainly getting people like you onto behind the title is a chance to normalize otherwise subjects that aren't necessarily discussed or possibly a taboo in the workplace. So I'm really excited to have you here today. Maybe it's just worth just a kind of a 30 second, 60 second intro to you and specifically, you know, some of the challenges that you faced and then we can dive straight

1:34Will Lavin: into some of the questions. Perfect. Well, thank you so much for having me. My name is William Loven. I'm still quite new to the industry. I've been in the industry for six years. I joined that variety of apprenticeship scheme, which is already a type of subject, especially coming into the media industry but also I've grown up my whole life with a stammer I was statemented from primary school which is incredibly rare to be statemented at that age. I'm sorry do you mind what does statemented mean? So statemented is when you've got learning difficulties that are so severe that you need assistance it's basically the confirmation from like the council from like the government that this person needs support so now it's called a educational plan okay that means that they have to provide you with support they have to give funding for like an extra assistance in school so growing up i've always had someone assisting me i went to a secondary school for people with additional needs and and you had to be statemented to go to that school because i've got basically the long island ict equivalent of neurodiversity i've got dyslexia dyspraxia i'm mildly autistic and my stammer and it's a interesting combination because a lot of people think how does it all add up or like does it ever cross and it's interesting how like when i was younger some may have been flagged higher than what they are now but i think now there's certain things that you grow up which is forgotten about especially like the workplace so no we speak about dyslexia in the workplace but actually we never speak about dyspraxia in the workplace and i think that's a very hidden subject because no one knows how to bring it up because it's not spoken about and i think with the stammer you can get judged very earlier on in your career from the moment of the job interview you can be judged on how you may be portrayed in your role versus then how you sort of are actually in an everyday environment and I used to despise my stammer growing up very open about it because you do feel what other people think and then now I raise awareness around it to make it more normal because I hope that one day in podcasts like this and like everyday podcasts like recordings and conversations the stammer is just the voice without it being the topic of a conversation interesting we were talking just before it's openly either being labeled or or signaling that you might have a hidden disability you choose to actively not signal that you have a hidden disability why is that I think for me I want people to see me as me because I've spent so many years in the past of people judging me or like treating me in a different way and I just want to be treated who I am in an everyday thing I'll always flag that I'm neurodiverse I'll always flag that I've got a stammer but I don't want to be treated in a different way because I think you're being treated for a way how people think you may need versus then versus how you actually are as a person because no humans were saying like there's people and I think you can walk in and like there may be 10 people in a room with hidden disabilities but but yet I'm guaranteed that you can't point out what they all have.

5:04Will Lavin: So how can you treat everyone in the same sort of way? And I think for a lot of people, we want normality, but yet we also don't want to be treated in a different way. So it's crossing that line of how do we get the support of understanding without that sort of change of mindset of how you treat that person? And for me, because being neurodiverse, you can clock on people's, like how they react, how they talk to you. And versus from when you're younger, you tell that people are talking to you in a different way. And it's like now, versus those conversations that you have now, and it's interesting, those people from years ago, and they've not seen me in like 20 years or so, they're still talking to me in that way when actually, why are you talking that way?

5:52I now work in Central.

5:56Will Lavin: I work in the advertising industry. that's not who I was I'm not who I am you're not who you were yeah exactly you know 10 15 years ago no totally for me that's a really helpful intro for people that are listening or watching it's really interesting to hear some of the challenges and points of view on that we've got some specific segments that we're looking to cover off uh in this podcast and and the first one that I think is really interesting um is I guess what happens backstage right it's in our minds every day there's lots that's going on and I guess what I would love to understand from you is was there a moment where you perhaps looked fine on the outside but perhaps you were barely holding it together I think in general neurodiverse people have a very good masking skill that you don't want to show how you're feeling but sometimes it can just blow up and there's been times where you may not see it but yet if someone said one word i could be done and what sort of word it could be any word like for instance i was on a ferry like i can have different like sensory overloads like different smells and stuff and i'm very sensitive to smells like i find it very hard to eat on a plane sometimes like in a train if everyone's eating around me i find that very hard and I was in New Zealand with my sister we were traveling we got on this ferry to like move from one island to the next and we went into this one room and we had like there was a tv on there were people eating and I just said to myself and like because ferries aren't there you can just melvis the air it was quite rocky for it and I said we have to move seats I can't do this and like everything was just building up so much and I said I'm just going to take myself out to get fresh out because everything was just building up so much like normally you wouldn't think about but if there's a tv going on there's people talking there's food different food smells going on it can just go boom and can just mess with you but then i could be at a bar in london with that same environment and could be absolutely fine so i could come into the office have a really busy day in the office be completely fine but i may go to a theater of that evening in a very similar sort of noises and I could really struggle in that environment and I think people don't understand how no one knows when a neurodiverse person could have any like hidden things it can be quite quick or it could be very a slow processing like if I'm on a night out the moment my brain says I'm done that's when I go I go I leave straight away because my brain's like I know that I'll be checking the time I know that I'll be checking my trains I'll know that I'm planning what time I need to leave because there's no point in me staying there because I know that my brain is just done cut and but then if I'm in the environment and there's little things that every day that people don't see like for me when I stand there H's are really hard it's like saying hello or hi so if you're walking into the office you see someone you know coming in they're going hi will and then i may stammer and i often like stammer in that moment because it's that quick thing so for me by the time the hello has come out they've gone and gone into the lift and like i've had it like already this morning and like in in like the station i was with someone who i knew and they're like hi and i was like and then that gap and then and then i feel sort of bad that they think that I've ignored them and they've gone off but actually it's that sort of like quick thing because you don't know what to do and you can't really say sorry and it's and that happens every single day and it's a really weird but you couldn't tell at all and and do you you said you feel bad about that person perhaps not hearing or getting the response that maybe we expect day to day but how does that make you feel like not about that person does that does that elicit an emotion yeah it's hard because like you don't want to feel like you're coming across as rude or like you're just smiling at them like oh hi and it's like but you do feel bad like there's often where i could be walking around the office and senior leadership could walk past and go hi and you're like hi and then it just looks like okay and it may come across as not a professional would you say there's a different or a better way like because because what i'd love people to get from these sessions is that it can change behavior yeah and so is there a different way you'd like i know you don't want to you know isolate yourself or signal that you have a hidden disability but is is a wave better or is it just a nod like is there something that works better for you in that situation it's sort of weird because at the same time i'd rather just still say hi and like just keep it that keep out normal interaction yeah exact same interesting it comes back to the point of just normalizing it is what it is you accept where you are yeah okay and by the way i should add i have terrible motion sickness so if you put me on a ferry it honestly put me on a ferry put me on a ship um my other half partner and and my stepson they quite frequently take the mickey out of me for not being able to, you know, I get it in cars as well.

11:33So I don't think that's, you know, mutually exclusive. I actually struggle sometimes with things that are too loud, too much sound. You know, sometimes I find I have to be in the right mindset. So there's probably some neurodiversity in there somewhere. But I find it really interesting. Something so small like that is possibly the start of maybe something, you know, that might be you kind of having, you know, a tough time on the inside. Just before we move on. So was there is there one specific moment that you, you know, really found, you know, you were struggling, but on the outside you were masking it.

12:15and it's not about trying to evoke reactions from the past, but I'm just keen to understand if there was one specific time when you were struggling with something.

12:26Will Lavin: I think it was actually a few weeks ago. In the office, sometimes it can get very, very busy. Often there's this booth near us that no one uses and people forget to use headphones because people think they're in that environment and they forget about this and I really thought it. and it was a really busy day. Everyone was in. There were people in that booth having calls on, having calls without headphones and loud. They were loud. There was music on. And I was at one point where I just thought, I had noise-cancelling loop earplugs. I had headphones on. So I was in double, like, layered of trying to block out the noise.

13:04Will Lavin: And someone made eye contact with me and I'd been my friend and I just shook my head back. was like don't say anything was like because if someone had said something i literally could have just so i took myself to a cafe was like right i just need to get a coffee and then people people like oh yeah i'll come with you when i was like no thank you was like i just need to just and like does that moment stepping out just made such difference because like you often don't know like what could happen next like there's been times where it can literally come very close and like I've often, not even in the office, in certain situations, where I've just taken myself out of situations where...

13:46Will Lavin: Of course. And I've just gone, oh, I just need to make a quick phone call. And I've literally gone, whoa. But it's weird. I can be in a really busy studio, or I can be in a really busy environment, and I'd be absolutely fine. Or there'd be one thing where I can just feel my stomach completely turn my headset just completely changes the volumes just go up massively and I don't call it a because people people go oh it's just an anxiety attack it's just a panic attack and I'm like unless you've had a proper sensory overload when everything's heightened like you could say one joke and I just want to cut you out like you never know what one thing can make and I think it's scary because your brain at the best times overthinks everything and then you're in that overload you overthink everything times a thousand and I often there's been times where I've been fine but I often get it like a post sensory overload so like I could be having a really great day doing a massive like huge achievement and the next day I could be in a really anxious state and a really odd state because everything sort of come down and I think for me it's sort of that where I used to be like versus where I am now it's sort of that change of mindset being like should I be and I look at some of the people who I was on a similar page on I like school who may have maybe been slightly more autistic or slightly more like dyslexic and I think am I in this doing this for the right reasons and like it really plays with your brain in that environment.

15:28Wow. It fascinates me because obviously neurodiversity, you know, you've got kind of a real spectrum where it might be visible, it might not be visible, it might be extreme, you know, it might be mild. I find whether it's, you know, personally or professionally, for a long time I spent locked in my head thinking, shit, I wish I'd said that. Whether it was through something that happened to me on a personal level, within work, within family, friends, you know, has there been a time you found that either you've been in crisis, you know, mental health crisis or, you know, within work or personal, you wish you'd said something?

16:13Will Lavin: it's one of those things where there's times where I definitely could be like but it's that fear of the preconception that if you say you're having like you're really struggling with this aspect or like you don't want to be seen as you're just being like a diva because I did a event with Channel 4 and it had like different neurodiverse panel and it had like Sam Thompson, Fern, Brady some other people and she made a really interesting point that I can really relate to being like you don't want to come across as like a diva saying that the lights are too bright we often have to put ourselves forward but often we sometimes make ourselves feel like we'll be judged without the hidden meaning of why we need those things done because you don't want to sound like you're too fussy or like you're being too overcompensating or like if I want to be sitting near an exit it doesn't mean that I'm not going to enjoy the event and I want to swiftly escape.

17:13Will Lavin: It means that if I do need to escape, I can take a breather. It's less obvious to do that. And I think there's often times in my instance where I flagged it after and everyone's been so understanding and they've gone, why didn't you say it before? And it's like, if I said it in a moment, that could have broken me in that moment and I didn't want that to change how you saw, but also I don't want to see. When you say it would break you, what do you mean? Because to me, I think to myself, for anyone that's struggling with something, I think it is the fear of either being set back in their career or the fear of being judged by a partner, which I find, again, difficult to understand, mainly because I'm quite vocal when I'm struggling.

18:07And maybe that's because I've done quite a lot through the recovery program that I'm part of. And it teaches me that it's better out than in. I need to write the pen, put the pen to paper. I need to kind of pause every morning, take quiet time and just reflect. And then at nighttime, just sit there and think about how was my day? What did I do right? What did I do wrong? But when you say, you know, was it overload you said? Yeah. What is the reason why you wouldn't have spoken up in one of those scenarios? You feel very vulnerable in those moments.

18:45Will Lavin: And I think because you're already overthinking everything. And I think you fear that you may come across as like you're not capable. And I think because a lot of people deem diversity as they're not capable of doing stuff. and I think if there's something so simple, like a loud office, like a really smelly, like someone's really smelly lunch, it can come across as a hidden vulnerability. Even though no one will judge you, no one will change how they see you and everyone will be in a very safe space, but it's that fear of, like, will people see me in a different way because of this instance? So, like, even though that's never the case, and it never will be, because if I was in an environment where they would judge me, I wouldn't be in that place on the first place.

19:33And I think people, you fear that not only would they see,

19:38Will Lavin: like, everyone would be very supportive, I think, on yourself. It's also not sort of embarrassment. It's that sort of... Is it embarrassment, though? I think it is. It's like you're sort of embarrassed that you're sort of masking something that you tell yourself that you can't let out, but people see it, you think that they'll see your truthful side, you're sort of the guard down, but actually the guard down is actually healthier to see than someone not being the true self. I mean, that's what this is all about, right? I'm not here to have a sanitised conversation. You know, I've shared it before.

20:16I'm quite open about some of the challenges that I've had to overcome around addiction and mental health and if I can help anyone you know beyond this you know environment here if I can help anyone do something differently you know I feel like I've fulfilled my purpose in this world that might sound quite grandiose but like we we met a couple of years ago and and I was blown away by your story not for any other reason than how brave it was for you to actually be facing head on um and again this was before i understood the the breadth and depth of your uh of your um hidden disability um and you you know i saw you stand up in front of a room of 130 people and i was like that that deserves far more than me turning up in a pitch you know coaching my stepson's football team um helping someone else you know overcome addiction they're all you know valid in their own right but i think it's just amazing like and and and you know my hope is is that you you can pave the way for other leaders that may not be as open about some of their uh some of their challenges what are some of those workplace or personal triggers that you face on a day-to-day basis it's important for others to watch out for it can change every day like

21:38Will Lavin: there could be some triggers that may set me off although there could be the same triggers that will not do anything and I think for me it can also be like fatigue like if I'm tired or if I've got a lot going on that may cause me to stammer more and it may make me feel more sort of vulnerable as like a person but for me my stammer I always use these sort of examples like old car engine if I'm working from home you're not talking to everyone you're only talking to like the people you live with or your local coffee shop and that's not enough conversation to engage and Like you do your team's call, but you're not engaging in that everyday like chat.

22:14Will Lavin: So if I'm recording and if I'm recording a podcast that evening, I know that my stomach will be a lot more work, a lot worse than if I recorded a podcast, if I had been in the office all day. Because because you're talking all the day in the office, you're buying your coffee, you're meeting, you're talking to someone on the left, you're having meetings on your desk, you're talking to people. My standards were best when I'm in the office and talking to people versus when I'm not at home and when I travel. If I go and do, I do a lot of solo travelling. My standard when I come back is awful because I'm not speaking.

22:47Will Lavin: And sometimes I can be quite mute coming off a flight because I just, my voice hasn't just had that churning. It's like a double-edged sword. You either, you're with people and it's too much. Yeah. Or you're by yourself and it's too little. Yeah. Okay. And like, especially like, there are some times that I'm a very methodical thinker and I could get a task done that would normally take two hours done like an hour because my brain is just like bam bam bam bam or it may take me six hours to do that one hour task because of the brain processing speed and it's like there's some times that you can just have a change of mindset and you can just go bam out hash it out done or you can be on that same mindset but yet your brain just doesn't get distracted but it's just seeing it as a as a lot longer and you think you need a lot more reassurance you're asking for like people to check it more then actually it doesn't need to be checked but your brain is just going through that extra caution stage of course and it's bizarre how like my triggers today have been completely different to what they were yesterday and yesterday was just completely different to how they were the day before and are your triggers different to if we take you know someone who may have exactly the same condition as you yeah completely different so everyone has totally different triggers they come at different times there's no set way so i guess with that in mind certain relations that may be related but i know some people with a stammer who can't say the letter s's but for me for me to get my stammer to be more confident i do things that your average person with a stammer would never normally do because i'm like for me to get over and talk about it i need to be putting myself forward to be doing team presentations or like i need to be coming on on podcasts and stuff and like having that conversation because otherwise you do get in your own rut and I think how can you motivate others if you can't motivate yourself to do it and I think sometimes the triggers are annoying and so I've got to say why was like and then you just do it again and when you can do it and it's always the best feeling after but like and then sometimes the triggers can bite you right in the last second so let's say we had a guest speaker coming into the office the most amazing tour and in that whole meeting i could be having like questions bubbling up ready for the q a the moment someone goes let's say you said right sound for the q a he's got a question bam confidence gone nothing and it's just that silence of you know and by the time i've got my confidence to ask a question is when we've got one last question and then everyone's got their hand up so there's been times like when you said missed missed opportunities yeah there's been many times where I could have asked a question to someone, but I've just missed opportunity to do it.

25:23Will Lavin: And I think... It's mad. When you're networking now, if I go to a networking event, like a brand event, or I come to a work event, and let's say in one room, there are all the different CEOs or publicists in one room, I could either go up to every one of them and ask them questions, or I may only speak to one of them and then find it and not have the confidence to go up to everyone. And like, there's this different situations where I could gain a lot of experience in talking to them. Or I may come back with no knowledge at all because I've not had that sort of that trigger. Yeah, this is why I want to flip it a little bit, because I think that everyone struggles with that.

26:06Yeah. I want to give you a sense that you're not the only one. But I understand how in your head that might elicit a certain type of response, bodily and mental. But I think everyone struggles with it. You know, a lot of people say to me, you know, I'm the first to speak up. I'm sometimes the loudest in the office. So I know we don't work in the same office. So you're probably quite lucky there. Yeah, I think that a lot of the things that you talked about there, I think many others experience, but it doesn't elicit the same response. And I think that's the really important point is that whether visible or invisible, you know, there are certain triggers that will definitely affect people that are neurodiverse.

26:52And we talk about the mirror moment, right? Do you ever find yourself metaphorically or physically standing in front of a mirror, giving yourself a piece of advice? Or do you ever think about your future self and think about what do you want to say to that person, either to overcome a challenge or to build yourself up around a specific subject? you know. I always do it and I think I spent so many years of finding a reason to say no to

27:24Will Lavin: something rather than finding a reason to say yes and I think that sort of mindset because I used to not feel accepted in certain environments because I thought people saw me how I saw myself 15 years ago. If it was someone's leaving drinks at work I would normally leave at like seven o 'clock so I I thought, this is my time to check out because I'm not sort of in that, because my confidence wasn't there. Even though they definitely didn't see that, like they just saw me as me, but for me, it took me a while for me to match my sort of, the confidence, how other people see me versus how I see myself.

28:03Will Lavin: And I think there's often that mirror moment of where you've got the angel and like the devil. You want to do something, go forward, and then you're like oh but you and like a funny way I sometimes see myself as like a fraud and I suddenly think because I'm like I really shouldn't be at this event was like why am I out of all these people at this Fort Park launch event when actually there are a lot more people out there but actually for me I'm like no I should be saying I am here I've worked so hard to get to this moment what I find really weird is that I have a mirror moment whenever I'm writing a speech because I've always got the angel of my stammer going oh you need to change that word because all the speeches I do presentations and like you probably noticed that when I did the planning power session my powerpoint changed ever so slightly all the time so the wording changed because like for me I was changing certain words to make it more stammer friendly so I know that if I had that word I wouldn't stand on that word so I always change my wording slightly so it may look exactly the same to someone or people are like it's so weird like my old manager was like right you've written this thing and you've changed it but it still says the exact same message she was like but I can't work out what you've done and I was like I've just changed some of the words like a stammer friendly word but then when I'm talking about my stammer I've got the angel going you know you need to change that word because you won't stammer and And then the devil's like, when you're talking about your stammer, you should still be saying those words that you stammer on because that's what you're there to talk about.

29:36Will Lavin: Yeah, yeah. And when we talk about, like, when it all comes together, like, those moments, when I did my TEDx, no joke, I cannot remember a thing beforehand. There's a photo of me with one of the other speakers who did not remember taking it at all. I saw it after, like, who's this guy? I was like, I do not remember that. Then after, like, I remember, like, sitting on, like, the sidelines waiting to go on. The only thing I could see was the big TED letters. And they aren't small. They're probably taller than that stand behind us. And I could hear every clock tick. And then the actual speech itself was 15 minutes.

30:13Will Lavin: I felt like two minutes. And then after, the backstage crew were like, oh, yeah, we've reserved the front row for speakers. So if you want to, you can go and watch the next speaker. And I went, not yet. Thank you. I'll come late but I just need to have an empty room and I said all right yeah sure and I literally went into that room and I just stood there in silence being like what the hell just happened and my phone was just going off like crazy and then I went to my friends after had the most incredible day and I had no sort of emotional release and I had the odd moment where I was watching the speaker and my brain was like because you know when you see someone on stage like they're brave for doing that standing up on that stage and i my brain was like well they're bold standing on that stage and then my brain was like hold on that was me 15 minutes ago on that stage we forget sometimes and like you forget that was awesome at the moment give me an example of a few stammer friendly words never even thought about this and if you don't have them that's fine as well i just you know i'm just intrigued to to know what would be the nuance so i find a's and i's quite hard okay if i'm talking about doing in influence activity sometimes i can find saying in in influence okay so otherwise i'm saying social media collaboration wow so even though it's longer it's sort of it's the exact same meaning but yet it's completely different and When I was doing my apprenticeship, doing my portfolio, my coach, she just rang me out of nowhere and went, your brain just fascinates me.

31:53Will Lavin: I've reread your whole portfolio presentation. It just reads exactly the same, but yet I can tell that you've changed wording to it. Your sentences still float in the exact same way. They've not come across as a different meaning. You could read that sentence out in both ways, and yet the other person would still know exactly what you meant for that. Of course. And she's like, how long does it take you to find the other word? And it takes a millisecond because it's in that moment. And I find out saying, like, Amazon hard. So I would just say prime. And we both know that they both mean the exact same thing.

32:32But yeah, it's that hidden thing.

32:34Will Lavin: So I always pre-think all my sentences without realising it. So even though, as we discussed earlier, this is a very natural conversation, I still know in my head what could come up. So I know that if there's any words, and there's a quote that I love that says, people with a stammer, you need to listen to what they say because they thought long and hard about what they want to tell you. And that's the truth of behind someone with a stammer. It's almost like your brain is like 10 seconds ahead. It has to be. Yeah. But you would have no idea, like doing that whole planning power. Like I know that in that meeting, there were a lot more stammer-friendly words.

33:11Will Lavin: and I know that I stammered a lot more in that meeting. Then Nadine came up to me after and she went, oh, wow, it was amazing you didn't stammer at all. And I was like, oh, I did. But you just couldn't tell. And it was fascinating. The second stammer you did for Amazon there, I have to be honest with you, I didn't know if you were just giving me, like you were almost recreating an example, but that was quite real. And I, I'll be honest with you, I didn't, because I know you, I say this in good spirits, I felt uncomfortable because I didn't know how to respond there. Exactly. Because there's a part of me innately that wants to save someone when I see them like that.

33:49Or there's a part of me that doesn't know how to process. I know that's not my job, my responsibility. What's really interesting, though, is that point around the words. As an industry, are we demonstrating? I know not everyone will experience that, but are we thinking about creating alternatives? Are we actually, as an industry, championing, like we are with some of the initiatives within the business that we work in and I see out there, are we championing different ways to approach that for neurodivergent people? That was...

34:19Will Lavin: But your brain sees it in a different way. And I think this person who I know, she presents BBC Radio 4 Women's Hour and she does her Radio 5 shows and she's got a stammer. And I said, do you stammer when you present for radio? And she said, the only time I may stammer is when I read the headlines. Because in my show, I can choose what I write, I can choose how I say things, but you can't change the headlines. You can't change that storyline. You can't swap the words because one word that you made change to that headline could cause something massive. And she's like, that's the only time that I made stamina on the radio.

34:51Will Lavin: You would have no idea otherwise because she just changes her show and she changes her script around the stamina. But often, like you say, in a client meeting, sometimes we do just have to say the word and it's like, but will they judge me in a different way when I'm presenting back those figures you felt so uncomfortable in that moment? But not as I know you, but... But you could feel it. I visibly felt more on the Amazon point than I did on Influencer. It wasn't the stammer, it was the facial expression. Because to me, that looks uncomfortable for you. Yeah. So that's when people's brains turn.

35:35Will Lavin: And people say to me, oh, would you go on to the traitors? and I'm like well I can judge people very well because like you're judging people's character and that's what I mean earlier was like you learn how people are reacting to you was like even though they try and mask it as much as possible you can always change a sight glimmer in someone's eyeline or like how they change it like even though that I know that if I stand without work like I could do a tv interview and not be nervous at all but I I found the context my the TEDx run that I did in the office, way more nerve-wracking than I did the actual TEDx itself.

36:14Will Lavin: Because for me, I get nervous about my stammer in front of people who I know versus then people who I don't know. So let me just, I want to add to that there. And then I want to move on to the final point. I say this quite a lot. So, you know, we do, you know, we work in an industry where we're pitching all the time. I often find the most nerve-wracking part of a pitch is the rehearsals. Yeah. In front of my peers, in front of my bosses, it feels like a live job interview. Yeah. It feels like I could pass or fail any time. So again, I don't think that's mutually exclusive to people in neurodivergent.

36:49But what I have learned over time, and it's clear that you've done that, is the more and more I do, the more and more I rehearse, the more and more I prepare, actually the effects that has in the moment when I'm in it makes it so much easier. because I've taken away the element of surprise. You know, I've still got some of that adrenaline, but I've taken away the element of surprise, which I guess, you know, you've done, you know, TED Talks, you've done BBC Radio, you've got your own podcast, it's Stammer Stories, which, you know, everyone should go and listen and check it out. Is that because you genuinely enjoy it or is that because you're raising awareness or is it just the both?

37:30What's the motivator and driver for that?

37:32Will Lavin: It gives me the biggest thrill ever. And I think for me and my messages, how can I motivate someone with a stammer? Like, if I was doing a team presentation, that barely touches the sides. And I think if I can do something bigger, that can make such bigger impact. Wow. But you just remind me of a really funny moment. So when we were doing, like, the campaign, like, presentation for, like, agency of the year, I remember, like, being really nervous for, like, the actual rehearsal bit. And then for the actual presentation itself, me and Pri, who I was doing it itself, we were both checking our heart rates going, oh god and like we were so nervous because like that that was my first like big all starcom all all the agency meeting and like louise had come over peter from chancellery lane katie someone from my team she had come over and there was a few other faces who i knew and when i do something i can't look at someone who i know and there was at some point where i i would look at someone they're in tears i told the other person they're in tears i turned it another person, I mean, I just found someone who I'd never met before, the most deadpan sort of, not really showing any emotion, was like, right, you're my perfect target to look at, because if I see someone getting emotional, it throws me off guard completely, but if I see someone who just shows no emotion at all, they're my prime target to stare at, and then I teams him afterwards, I'm really sorry for staring you down, and my presentation felt like you were a great person so like like it's like something you just need to find that familiar but not familiar phase yeah and it just helps the situation wow so much more amazing i've learned more about you now we worked together for a couple of years than and about neurodivergency than i have or could read in anything uh online what i really want to do as part of this series is give people permission to either feel, say, do or stop doing.

39:31If we think about that permission slip, what would you say to people that are struggling with a hidden disability? How can they ensure that they keep themselves safe? They go after the thrill. What would you say to others?

39:48Will Lavin: Never hide it. Always take that box. If you're doing a job application or like you're flagging you've got a hidden disability, never be afraid to tick that box. People think that you may get to it in a different way. And it's 25. They all know that you do, but it's for the best and that you will get the support that you need. And even though it doesn't have to be an open discussion, I'm quite unusual being quite open about it. But yeah, it means that it is on the books. It is allowed. And if you do need those resources, they know that it's there for you and I think people are are a lot more interested in it than you think we've had conversations which have been fascinating I think neurodiversity is a fascinating subject so I think around like disability in general if someone tells you they're disabled you just don't don't assume that someone's in a wheelchair they could be anything like any type of disability if it's to like their bodies are like with their brain or like anything but like if you tell someone that you're that you got a stammer they either expect you have a severe stammer and that's it or if you tell someone that you are autistic they expect a slightly affiliate autistic person and not someone who's all aspects of the spectrum we need to just be more accepting that anyone can be at any scale of of how many what neurodiversities they have but it doesn't mean that it changes them as a person so it always adds a and I see it as a a great addition to a company or like to a friendship group you're a diverse person from your team yes they may be a bit slow at reading your email but yet guaranteed that they probably gave you the most methodical project layout that no one could all come up with because they will do a plan for your plan or like they may give you another creative aspect that because a lot of neurodiverse people are very creative and i think people overlook the label and not actually see the benefit of how the brain can work in that environment because yes my standard people expect that i don't want to present but actually i'm one of the most forthcoming people about wanting to present you can see the both balances because yeah you're accepting them into your agency or which is amazing but actually it's great for you because you're sort of helping them grow into a person like you're seeing the other side of it because i think if you look at some of the neurodiverse people in the world like Walt Disney, Steve Jobs, Richard Branson there's so many incredible neurodiverse people like Jamie, Jamie, Oliver can't read a book and all his cookbooks have been done by a dictator phone and you think how can one of the UK's top selling publishers have never read a book before but yet look at where he is and I think it just adds a whole other conversation to it sure it's amazing and there was a there was some work done recently by channel four I think um I thought it was fantastic even just changing the the letters on the on the on the graphics on screen during the show it really made me think okay so just close this out one wish one dream one hope for you know people with a neurodivergent condition or a stammer One wish is that I hope that you're just seen as you and you're comfortable saying it without being judged on it.

43:17Will Lavin: Hope is that you're comfortable in just being your true self because I think everyone hides who they really are, especially in the workplace. And I think you will notice a big difference in yourself. And I think a dream is to see more brands, more sort of actual hidden understanding. Because my approach is hidden messaging. And I think, how can we make sure that it's not the speciality, that it's not a special edition of an advert, or that character isn't known for the storyline, for being autistic, or being someone... How can we just make it as just part of general society? Because that's how I think we can change normality, is just seeing it every day, rather than just saying, oh, that character on EastEnders is autistic so that's going to be a storyline about being autistic which is amazing but it doesn't always have to be the storyline it can just be them as a person amazing will or as i said at the beginning william i'm not sure how to address you now thank you so much for joining us um for those that are listening you know will has a phenomenal podcast he talks about his stammer and you know how he supports anyone else with a condition online it's fascinating you've taught me more than I've you know learned as I said in a short space of time today and I certainly won't be saying hi to you I'll just give you a little wave next time I see you thank you very much for joining us thank you I've absolutely loved it