From Walworth Road to Walking away from the Boardroom

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1:12John, welcome. It's great to have you on the podcast. I've been trying to pin you down for a while through back and forth on WhatsApp and LinkedIn, but it's amazing to have you here. For those that haven't met you, don't know you, it'd be great if you could give a bit of introduction to yourself, your background, and I think most importantly, why was it important for you to come on to the podcast today?

1:35John Maloney: Firstly, mate, thanks for having me. Pleasure. There's been a lot of people that's been on this series that I really look up to as my peers, and it's a real pleasure to be on here. My name's John Maloney. I've been in the media industry for 24 years. showing my age somewhat um i've recently just um left wpp after continuous service of 18 amazing years um working at various of the media agencies in that in that time so never really felt like it was it was one job at wpp i never thought i'd be somewhere for that long but when you work at mindshare maxis what became essence m6 transition to to tmp it was it was always very very always very different um came into you've got some stories got a lot of stories maybe some will surface today um came into the industry as a 22 year old out of university went into trading and was a press buyer and sort of stayed in that trading environment for that for that for the length of my my career um in the last 10 years i've also become known for um organizing a big industry event which is a a charity fundraiser and a big date in the in the diary which is media fight night um which is something i'm really proud of raising over 2.2 million pounds for some grassroots charities carnies community and off the ropes um and that's been that's been amazing to be able to do that alongside a very busy day job um with an amazing team of people that support me um on that i think why it was important for me for me to do this uh you weren't taking no for an answer firstly this is true i felt like i had nowhere to go but you remember when i cornered you at the natural yeah i remember my i was outside with abby and i thought oh no he's got me he's actually got me i've got nowhere to go on this um but then the more the more i thought about it and you know you you did you you did the right thing you suggested me listening and um looking at some of the previous ones that you've done um there's a lot that i've had to battle in in my own career over the years with regards to you know to self-doubt and anxiety and an imposter syndrome and i think a lot of the things that you've spoken about previously with other people and you know while why this isn't an environment entirely comfortable and if I'm being totally honest and people might not believe that and I've shied away from it in the past I think it's really important to talk about the things that you've been through I think more junior people will see senior leaders within this industry they naturally assume that you know they're completely capable they're completely natural they're completely confident but there's actually a lot going in going on with a lot of people and if this session you know what you and I talk about helps one person with that it's it's it's worthwhile and that's the way that I've always looked at media fight night as well if I can look back in years to come and I see one person come up to me and go like that really changed my life you know all of that all of that time and all that effort is definitely worthwhile it's funny I um I only coined this a few weeks ago actually when I was recording some of the um other episodes for season three which this is part of and I've been running with it quite a lot now but if it helps one then job done that is it for me um and and you know part of the reason why I started this podcast was based on my own lived experience of addiction and mental health you know having been sober for you know close to nearly 18 years I felt that it was important for people to know that it's okay if you're struggling it's not okay if you don't feel comfortable to share that and talk about it you need to feel um that you're in a safe environment that's welcomed and supportive and and i think hearing from leaders like yourself who have had a very senior title um but behind all of that there's a lot that people won't know is is really important um i mean there's there's so much we're gonna get into today Like, I really want to get into a bit about your upbringing.

5:56We talked about it before. You know, I guess prior to kind of getting to the industry at 22, I want to get into your time at WPP. I have to get into Fight Night. I actually had two million down. I don't know, it was 2.2 million. That's great. And hear more about the work you're doing with Carnies and Off the Ropes. I guess before we dive in, let let's maybe i normally start with you know was there a moment that you that you felt you know on the outside everyone would think john is great but on the inside things weren't so great yeah um but before we get into that talk to me about your i guess you know where you grew up and from when you were in the industry to where you are now did you ever imagine from where you came from that you would be sitting in a boardroom with the people that you sit with no not at all

7:00John Maloney: and I think that upbringing is in part what caused over time some of some of that anxiety and that fear of belonging I grew up less than a mile from where we're sat today in an area called the Elephant and Castle particularly the Woolworth Road surrounded by council houses social social housing and you see firsthand the challenges of that of that background particularly opportunity not being normalized and I look back as one of the lucky ones that sort of gone on to build a corporate career that I never expected like I never had um family members that was in executive positions or c-suite um my dad was was an accountant my mum worked after being a housewife was on the shop floor at a Mulberry luxury goods on on Bond Street great for a discount at the time um so I never had any learned behavior in in in that in that sense and when I came into the industry out of university um prior to that football was my ambition and that and that didn't happen um academically I wasn't particularly strong because that was my focus and you know even getting a degree was was was tough it was hard hard work I remember coming into the industry and for my interview and um I spent some time with my nan I mean she was from Hoxton but she was slightly better spoken than the rest of us um and I just like wanted to try and work on the way that I spoke so I was really nervous about the way that I sounded and how that might feel in a in a business but anyway do you think you sound different now to when you were younger so when I come into the industry as a 22 year old yeah I mean I you think I've got a South london accent now um it was it was strong right um and i know it was um yeah and but i came into a trading environment like me as a press buyer on the phone negotiating hustling like it's it actually that upbringing actually put me in a really good place because it allowed me to be streetwise and hustle and you know a bit of personality and enthusiasm was was was was great and I was absolutely flying um and then you talk about that that moment and it wasn't one but there was one that really stands out which is I've just been promoted to to investment director at Maxis and that went from being like a really good well-known press buyer to having a bit more of a broader responsibility and my CEO at the time who is fantastic Lindsay Patterson like she was really like an amazing leader and she was also really keen to sort of like push me on get me into senior rooms take me to senior events but making that transition from an environment that I was totally comfortable in with people that I traded with buyers sellers etc where I always had a topic of conversation to all of a sudden being in a room where I was slightly slightly nervous you took me to an event that clarages and we we walked in and she was immediately you know talking to a CMO no, that's what we were there to do.

10:22John Maloney: And she sort of didn't do it on purpose, but she sort of left me for a couple of seconds and I stood there on my own. And then she sort of introduced me to someone. I didn't know what to say. I just crumbled. Didn't really feel like I had a topic of conversation. I just wasn't really prepared for it. Went to the bathroom, hid for 25, 30 minutes. Literally just stayed in the bathroom. I thought, I can't do this. I just can't do it. Am I going to get away with it? came out looked across the floor everyone was talking Lindsay was deep in conversation I did a circuit made it look like I was okay walked straight out the door jumped in a taxi went home and for a while that that transition of not feeling like I belonged being more conscious all of a sudden about the way that I sounded um was something that I really had to I really struggled with had to overcome.

11:15And when you, well, did Lindsay ever confront you and say,

11:21John Maloney: no. And then did you ever, she wouldn't even know until now, if she even sees it. I'm sure she does. And no one would ever know that story is the first one ever said it. Mind blown. So hang on a sec. So when, when you, when you did that, what was going through your head about, If you leave now, how will that reflect on you? But also, surely that isn't sustainable. Did those two things come into your mind or was it just like, I'm out of here? It's just not me. I think fear of failure or not belonging, all of that anxiety that I started to build up increasingly in that period of time, just become a little bit overwhelming.

12:07John Maloney: And it's that fight or flight scenario. and I knew that Lindsay would have been so busy we'd already agreed that you know we wouldn't like find each other to say you just you know you know the drill right um for me I just thought no one's going to know any different I can just get out the door here get back to doing what I'm good at during the day um and yeah so that that was definitely was a moment for sure and when you I guess receive that promotion it's interesting when you get promoted because everyone says amazing, about time to or you're smashing it but I know that when I've been promoted before there's two things that happen one, I should be more senior than this and two can I do this?

12:59I get that kind of that real sense of grandiose I'm better you know the the ego kicks in but at the same time that self-doubt was there a lot of that when that happened or was it no I'm meant to be here I'm I'm due this promotion and I'm just going to absolutely own it or did you feel it was long overdue because you do hear a lot of that in the industry nowadays um I was I was quite I was quite

13:27John Maloney: young for the title i think at the time i think i was 33 right being given that role of an investment director and actually as well it was it was it wasn't conventional at the time if you think about what i said my background was which was was a was a press buyer and a good one i think um to be given that broader responsibility in front of what was normally at the time the done deal which was if you bought tv if you was a tv buyer and you look at all the investment directors that were heads of tv etc um it was a bit of a change of direction um but my natural instinct with that was to do what I'd always done which you know while I suffered with confidence at times and anxiety I always grafted that that working class mentality of working harder um you know wanting to wanting to um deliver for the people that have given me that responsibility um that that really kicked in so it's not that i didn't graft it was just certain environments and moments where it was it was deep that that feeling of i'm a little bit stretched here i'm at my comfort zone that become a bit overwhelming were there any other um moments that you felt out your comfort zone we talked quite a lot about things like pitches yeah because i i love pitches actually let me let me let me backtrack i enjoy pitches i love the process the overly scripted nature of them i think can sometimes cause me some anxiety because i'm very much off the cuff uh i tend to just know my stuff learn it and feel it but i can only bring that adrenaline once um so were there other moments that you found quite difficult pitches pitching pitching for me it was pitching especially actually it was always with me yeah definitely as um i started to be in the room more at that transition point going c-suite but it's it is something that i've got a lot better at coping with but there is always that overwhelming underlying anxiety for sure what happens what's the feeling so um i remember I remember having this this this moment where it was we were pitching for L 'Oreal and we was on this role at Maxis where we've gone from I think 50 60 people in the agency and we were 50 60 million of billions and we were just on a roll of winning everything and we we we ballooned really really quickly and we was pitching a lot so I was being expected to to to pitch more and the biggest one we were pitching for was um was l 'oreal and i'd sort of only ever been in the room for pitches when i was in there to to present what my specialty was and i felt quite felt quite comfortable with that i could i could i could nail that um but i'd look at senior leaders i'd look at um people that i really respect and admire and i'd watch them present and i'd be like you're so natural i can't believe how good you are how do you stand up and just deliver that and then that l 'oreal bit that l 'oreal pitch happened and i saw again like i saw lindsey and nick born and you know tim erwin great leaders that i was exposed to rehearsing a script and learning their lines i didn't know that a script was a thing and all of a sudden i thought hold on a minute you're actually spending time to to to learn a script and that was that was for me was like a light bulb moment but then that was what become the problem because I become really obsessive about learning the script and that word for word word for word and that become debilitating really really debilitating because what they were doing was learning the script giving them a basis of what they would go in and talk about but I literally become so compulsive and obsessed about obsessive about it I'd sort of where they might need a couple of hours a day whatever it might be to be prepared for me it was four or five days of just stress of word for word having to learn it and that was what was causing my anxiety because I felt like I had to learn it word for word and then I'd sit in I'd sit in you know rehearsals as you do you rehearse and all this was new to me and they'd be like right this isn't quite work but I've learned the script by this point this isn't quite working John do you think you could just take on this part of the pitch and can you do that something that's completely not my specialist I'm thinking.

17:59My brain's hardwired already. It's learnt.

18:02John Maloney: I'd have to go into a room. I'd have to go into the room that we were pitching in. I'd have to stand in the spot I was going to present it from and do my script. And then all of a sudden they'd throw curveballs. I was more consumed by the changes that might be made and trying to, in my own head, listen to what I had to do. Everything else about that pitch was secondary and it was really affecting my performance. Wow. i i think it's it's eye-opening to hear that and i think people listening certainly that either don't have experience with pitches or do have experience i'd be hard-pressed to think that most don't identify with that um i was not dissimilar actually um i i i didn't and i haven't ever been able to commit word for word i've never been able to do that even with exams really really tough um academically just couldn't get it um but what I did learn was that I needed to write something longhand then shorten it then shorten it again then shorten it and if I did that three or four times and just wrote it down the process would commit something to memory but I also learned that sometimes rehearsal isn't for me it's for the other person it's for them to feel comfortable yeah and the minute that i understood that the minute i felt a little bit easier because i was like well there's going to be gremlins you know i'm going to get stuff wrong or i'm not going to say it i mean the amount of times i'm in a rehearsal and someone's like well we all know danny doesn't like a rehearsal because i don't yeah i'm normally like and yeah i'm going to say this and this and this but i think it is it it can be quite anxiety inducing um during those times then and maybe not just around pitches was there shit that you'd wish you'd said to people i.e i can't do this or i'm struggling i think it was a slightly different time and i might be wrong um but i wish i wish i'd spoken up a little bit more about the anxiety i was feeling um and allowed the business to give me the tools to maybe better cope with it you know whether that's training or whatever courses that you can go on and I think the industry is now a lot more supportive of stuff like that I think the reason why I didn't was because I assumed at the time if you admitted weakness or that you couldn't do something it was going to put a blocker in terms of where your progression was going and I had this incredible trajectory of growth in this industry where on the outside you know what you talk about in terms of knocking everything out of the park getting promoted getting into roles that I probably not not shouldn't have done because I was capable but I you know going back to that I wasn't from a tv background and yet I get given a role that historically haven't been done yeah um so yeah I wish I would have I wish I would have spoken out about that a little bit more at the time I think that we are more accommodating as an industry I think we are more flexible and and I don't think it necessarily has to come from a place of people talk about wokeism it's less about that and more about being human and more about recognizing there's so much adversity in today's world there's so much hurt and harm that certainly my belief is it's just about being human and so I do think people are more accommodating of that um so so at what point then and maybe just give a bit of background you know you've come from a working class background you've started in the industry that possibly you didn't think or you would ever see people like yourself in you are performing incredibly well getting recognized rewarded for that success but there's this internal anxiety you then decide to launch a massive event in the industry and put yourself front and center now I'd love to understand a bit bit more about the motivation why behind that um you know was it to push yourself out of your comfort zone or was it something deeper that people may not necessarily know about or remember as to why you even started media fight night so the start the start of media fight night wasn't by design actually um i got asked to have a lunch with a couple of surgeons specifically around head and neck counter treatment um and one of them had a brother-in-law that worked in the industry alan williams ex-publisher of men's health and and shortlist and stylists um and they were keen to to get some funds in and do some fundraising um for this for this new charity and one of the surgeons actually was quite interested in doing a white collar boxing match and alan knew that i had a family history in boxing you know i had my dad and his two brothers were were irish immigrants and they went to an amateur boxing club and it's something in our in our family but actually as a generation of cousins we actually never did ourselves so they asked me if i'd get involved and if um i'd help raise some money my now wife abby had just started our events business and the deal was I'll do it I'll raise some money but can she organise it and you know look we raised 150 grand in that first event or I did and sold 90 % of the tickets which meant it felt like a media event and straight after it a lot of people showed an interest in taking part or doing it so I spoke to Abs and she's the brains behind that and she said well you know why don't we do media fight night you've always wanted to find something or do something to give back given your background and where you come from you've always spoken about it maybe maybe this is it and that was that was that was the genesis of it so all of a sudden we did that second event we went from 400 guests to nearly 1200 guests in a year i think we raised over 200 000 pounds in that in that second event raising 350 in two years and all of a sudden it just it just gathered this this momentum um and then as we were getting involved in it more and more we were being introduced to grassroots charities and i was meeting them and just some of the stories of the people that they'd helped or saved or supported just really resonated with me you know off the ropes is a mental health charity to do some amazing work um and it's a charity that i'm you know really proud to have achieved what we've done in the last few years and then i think you've been in the room yourself but karn is community and that one especially you know having grown up in a in that where i grew up seeing where opportunity is not normalized and limited but the difference it can make when you open open doors um and that relationship goes far beyond now just the fundraising you know we've actually introduced them to spotify because abby and i funded a recording studio being built at carney's for free recording time for young kids so that they can explore creativity whether that's recording music or podcasting or just creating content and the guys here have been amazing about facilitating master classes on content and workshops and we've had people now get involved with regards to offering work experience and it's sort of in that 10 years of what started just as a as a as a fundraiser it's gone on to be um it's gone on to achieve quite a bit but it's you know what it's not just the you know it's funny it's not just the charities that we support it's the people that come into the process the people that work in the industry the people that sign up and over the course of that nine to ten months of training you you get to know people really well um it's another reason why i thought today was important to do this because you realize what's going on in people's heads what they're struggling with confidence you know whether that be they've been in the industry a long time in their lifestyles whatever the reason can't present can't stand up in front of people public speaking they go through that nine or ten months they come out the end of it they're a much much different person much more confident and that's also been a real pride of mine to see over the 100 people that have done it and the journey they go on unbelievable i mean 2.2 million pounds raised yeah um 2.2 million pounds john yeah it's i'm i'm getting emotional thinking about that um i think the 10 year anniversary last year was a real moment of reflection up until that point i've not really given myself a chance to really think about it you you know you're busy with work you've got a senior career my wife's got her own business we've got three young children three boys and then we do the event as well you're sort of in that slipstream every year of just sort of cracking on um but yeah last year was a was a reflection moment you look back and go i think this is something to be really proud of and at some point i think you know you do look back and go it's it's amazing but i haven't done it on my own there's a really amazing team of people and the industry itself has really um got behind us they've been so supportive everyone's you know got involved in some way um and i think it's something the industry can actually be proud of as well i mean i i said when i started this podcast and maybe it's by default it kind of it kind of fell into well do i what do i want to do to help people and give back because i know that how i got sober and clean was by someone freely giving me their time and and it's turned into actually i'm hopefully leaving a very very small legacy around trying to change perceptions and the more that can be done around that in the industry i think the better yeah um you know to me the the idea of being on a big stage amazing if that happens brilliant if it doesn't it doesn't um honestly the messages that i get from people you know please do you know send them keep sending them in because when i get the one-to-one messages saying you have no idea how much that helped me or i shared it with my sister and it was you know uh so timely given what they're going through or i've also had that happen to me those sorts of messages they keep me going it's not about the numbers the numbers are great it's those individual messages kind of what you were saying there when you learn about these people um i think that drives and pushes me to to to do more so so we're we're 10 years just now just gone yeah how are you going bigger with it or are you not um are we are we at the level that it's good and we're going to continue to invest in it as we have done over the last 10 years so i think from a london perspective we're good growth now comes from manchester which is an ambition and we're already having conversations up there about bringing it to life up there um and also the tech industry has also got really heavily involved in the event the last few years as well it started as like uh um you're very much a buyer's night out um in our industry over time just because it's got so big people have seen the opportunity of it for talking to their customers talking to their audience and more and more people have flown in from new york and from the us wow because of the size of it and the scale of it.

29:52And quite a few people have gone,

29:56John Maloney: fancy bringing this over. And I think that would be amazing. But we'd be true to what we've always done, which is I want to, and I think we've already done it in Manchester, and that would be the ambition in New York, which is we find grassroots charities where we know we're having a real tangible impact on the people that we're doing. Your call has been forwarded to an automatic voice message system. A missed call doesn't feel like anything. No red flag, no notifications screaming at you. It just disappears into your call log. And nine times out of ten, that was someone ready to hand you money.

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31:53John Maloney: We're supporting the money that we're raising and where it's going. So if we kind of take, you know, we've had the first part of, you know, your life, which was very much focused on, I guess, coming in as a working class kid into the industry, building this legacy over the last 10 years. You're in a very different place now. And it would be great to unpick some of that, you know, over that time, have there or are there any kind of triggers in your life that bring back that anxiety still so i assume when you're about to get on the stage and introduce all the fights you know that might be one of those moments or perhaps when you see others that are struggling you know does that almost help you surpass your anxiety to help someone like what are those triggers for you today that um i guess grind your gears or push you in in the wrong direction today's one of those moments i know um being totally honest with you um yeah for sure um i don't know why but this this public speaking thing is haunted quite a big word but i don't know why it triggers such an emotion of anxiety or you know i find that even today you're you're you're not preparing to do well you're not preparing to do good i just i'm preparing not to fail and that's i know that's a very subtle difference but it's also like it's a massive it's a massive difference um so triggers wise i've got a lot better of being comfortable in my own skin in my own skin in executive situations so senior rooms i feel like I've overcome what I had all those years ago that Lindsay moment of clarity it's like I'm over that I'm much more comfortable with dealing with that um but the the standing up in a ring in front of 2 ,000 people actually I don't know why I feel more comfortable with that but me standing up in front of the agency in front of 50 60 people just giving an update mate used to just used to tell me and a tailspin today you know not wanting to not wanting to let you down knowing did you think about bailing come on come on i've already bailed i've bailed once before i bailed once before um and yeah just it happens it's it's in me it's it's just something that's wired into me that's a real challenge and I've been invited onto so many panels down the years that I just didn't do because I just thought what I've got to go through to get to the point where I think I can perform and how time consuming that's going to be I'll just send one of my team, I'll give them the opportunity I feel privileged I feel privileged and we should add right, you're heading off to Buckingham Palace today.

35:09John Maloney: I am, yeah hence the suit so sorry i'm slightly i mean it's amazing and that's that's to kind of talk about some of the work that you've done uh prior with the king's trust yeah so the king's trust is a long-standing client of tmp um which i was most recently most recently as an agency and um we we do a lot of pro bono work for them um it's a charity that you know again like carney's i can see the amazing work that they're doing it really resonates with me and just after covid they they came to me and said that we you have created some unbelievable creative for us but we just haven't got the funds to actually bring it to life and get it out into market we're having to redirect all of our budgets to frontline work and that's where the priority needs to be have you got any idea on how we could possibly get this in market and sylvia the marketing director there and i sat down and I gave her some advice on what we could do and how we could approach the market.

36:05John Maloney: And, you know, the industry has been extremely supportive. I won't say how much money that we've been able to generate for them in terms of free advertising and gifting kinds, but it's significant. And today it's the 50th, well, this year is the 50th anniversary of what was the Prince's Trust, now the King's Trust. And this is a way of the King's Trust team saying thank you to me and several media owners are also going to be joining me today, going to Buckingham Palace for a cup of tea and celebrating the 50th anniversary of the charity. Unbelievable. Is it like the garden party they normally host?

36:42Yeah, basically. Yeah, it's exactly that. Unbelievable. Which is a nice treat. Unbelievable treat. You talked about just there, your former role. Yeah. So we can't, you know, have this podcast

36:58John Maloney: without talking about you've made a big decision yeah you know after 18 18 years was it 18 years plus at WPP 18 years you've decided to uh make a change um you know I I literally posted uh one of the episodes this morning um from Hannah Blake at uh Mail Metro who shares a lot about kind of burnout and being in a corporate environment and you know almost what we covered off earlier like is there more to life than just work home gym work home gym yeah you've obviously made that decision you've got an incredible family you've got a hugely successful partner wife um so yeah tell us tell us why why now just felt like the right time and WPP were extremely supportive in decision um I've been through I've been at M6 TMP for eight years we'd gone through a transition of taking a media agency and a creative agency and creating TMP an integrated solution or proposition um managed the transition of that which was amazing and you know again a real learning experience um and then you know there was or there is some decisions being made at the center in terms of what the structure needs to look like and the senior leaders there were extremely keen for me to stay um but i just looked at it and i thought it's 18 years i'm turning 46 this year you're not stop it stop it wait the two clients um very charming um and i've got as you said a wife who's got a very successful business we've got three young children youngest ones literally just turned one the oldest one literally just turned seven three boys as well three boys as well that's full on um and i just looked at what i was going to be or what was going to be the expectation of me going into that new role at the centre what the demand would be and I've always been all in which would have meant I would have gone all in because I want to see that business be successful I love it I loved it there I've had a great time there and me and Abby just evaluated it and I just felt like I wasn't being the best husband or dad that I could be right now and you know you think about the last 10 years of a very busy career our industry is full throttle there's high demands it's long hours you then layer in a young family you then layer in a wife that's got her own business you then know in the biggest industry event each year at 2 000 people and being watched by 600 000 online live streams yeah and you just think I think I've sort of missed my seven-year-old grow up.

40:00John Maloney: It sort of passed me by a little bit. I'm out the door at 5am, don't get back till 6. All they really get of me Monday to Friday is that period of time where I'm sort of committed to bath and bedtime. And I don't want to look back in years to come and think to myself, I really missed it. It's a big decision for me coming from a working-class background to not take a gamble but leave a well-paid job with a title where you're valued and you have a strong reputation you're liked you know you can do a good job and then you think to yourself i think i want to i think i'm going to step away it's a big decision but as i said the the business were very supportive of me um and they understood it's funny when i i speak to some of my inner circle when i talked about some of the guests coming up and i mentioned your name a few of them were like what an episode that's going to be um because i think when you when you have someone who's had a career like that who's had a massive impact on the industry and you're not going far from the industry in fact quite the opposite you'll probably still be at the heart of it but just in a different uh a different way there's so much that people you know can take um you know what what is it do you think there was stuff within um fight night that maybe gave you a degree of confidence to make those decisions because you've almost built something independently yourself with abby and the incredible team that's you know that did with you do you think that gave you i think last year that 10 year anniversary show definitely gave me some confidence that i can build something um as i've said repeatedly i've been surrounded by incredible leaders and i've learned an awful lot and you know you you begin to learn and understand what good looks like um and also you know the the announcement when I pull it out on LinkedIn was quite overwhelming in terms of the the response that I got which means you know there's a little bit of validation there that you've had a good career and you've been good to people and you've been supportive and I've never been one of those people not to give anyone a meeting like my granddad always said always give someone a meeting no matter what level they are because you never know where they're going to wind up and you never know when you're going to be on the way down and you're going to need somebody so I've always my door's always been open um but yeah I think I think the event has 100 % helped me overcome some of my demons in terms of confidence and public speaking it's not perfect don't get me wrong I'm still on that journey I think I'll always be on that journey as I said like even today was quite um it was um a challenge for me to actually like commit to it um but it's definitely given me yeah that that whatever it is i think i can i can either build something god or or do something that's great next and when you when you and abby had that conversation was there a a moment where you had to take yourself off and just either stand in front of the mirror or just gather yourself to bite the bullet because it's all very well make a decision is still doing it she's amazing she would you know being an entrepreneur growing a business never knowing when that next bit of revenue is going to come in you're sort of conditioned to that you don't know any different but when you're taught from an early age that you get a job you work hard you get a decent pay you work until you drop you talk you focus on your pension so that there's something afterwards like it's a big decision to walk away from a from a massive from a massive job and i talked to her in the morning and i'd be absolutely buzzing about the prospect and the opportunity and i'd get on the train this was before i left um and i'd be so excited and then my mind would overwhelm me during the day and it was like i was getting on the train on the way home i wasn't literally but it's like that that brown paper bag moment like like yeah literally panic attacks like what am i doing like what are you doing are you mental why are you what why are you even thinking about this and i i was on that and was on that roller coaster for for for months what was the moment that you just said this is it do you remember that um yeah i just sat down with my mum and she's like what's the worst that can happen funny isn't it what parents what's the worst that can happen you know um abby's i'm i'm not immune to the i'm not immune to the to the to the fortunate position i'm in well i'm not i'm not the sole income earner in my household that that gives you a bit more confidence that gives you the ability to actually make a strategic decision and a decision actually for yourself and abs was amazing about about we'll make it work don't don't worry Your call has been forwarded to an automatic voice message system.

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46:33John Maloney: situation but what that possibly does is it can mean that you're stuck for longer than what you expect and i think turning 46 this year and i know that's not old but then all of a sudden you're looking at 50 around the corner and I look at whatever you do being in most part a 10-year project and I was more comfortable making that decision now at this age than maybe committing to that WPP role which I would have gone all in on and I know that two or three years would have gone past in the blink of an eye no I would have been 10 I'd be closer to 50 and then making that decision maybe comes a little bit harder just because of the number and the age and I think I'm manifesting that myself in my own head um but there was something about now that just felt like if I don't do it now I'm never going to do it unbelievable I'm genuinely sitting here in awe um and not to put you on a pedestal it's not it's not about that but I think it's to have the security sorry to have built what you built career wise um to have that security at such a senior level and be well thought of and be be being asked or challenged to take more senior roles and to make a decision to go another way is it's quite admirable in fact we had ali read on um and it's amazing chief growth officer of brain labs and she talked about her experience as being a ceo and actually realizing that everything that she thought everything that she worked so hard to get it wasn't quite as she expected and she's now thriving you know in her role as chief growth officer at brain labs um but i think this applies to any industry you know certainly the ambitions for the podcast if if if and if i say if we you know we're filming season three at the moment i'm i'm thinking about season four and five is how do we go outside of the industry um or at least adjacent because there'll be some incredibly powerful stories from people that fundamentally have either had experiences like yours um or otherwise so yeah i'm in genuine awe it's so like we when we first spoke i think we actually did a podcast just chatting we were on the phone for about an hour and a half we were indeed yeah um but you know it was amazing um uh two more questions and and we'll bring it to a close so as you start to rebuild um and not rebuild because it's all crumbled but you are rebuilding right laying foundations for the next 15 years um what's what how are you approaching that what are you doing because naturally the routine the structure has disappeared yeah do you know what i mean yeah the you know the mundane you know station get on the train go to the office that no longer exists so how are you going about just kind of keeping that solid head um in a straight place uh motivating yourself um and making sure that the things that you're doing are not necessarily the right things but they're the things that you are passionate about and they're going to complement all the things that you're you chose to leave for to support family etc yeah so it's funny that the structure thing in the immediate period after after leaving which isn't that long ago was it was actually quite tough um found myself coming into london being at the training at the lodge not being structured and disciplined enough with actually organising my diary, putting in a meeting at a certain time, but then having nothing in for the rest of the day.

50:27John Maloney: And then I was wondering the streets of London, thinking, what have I done? Like, you know, where am I going to go? Where am I going to have this call? And having 24 years of, as you said, commute, structure, people helping you with your diary, knowing what the objective is, knowing what you've got to deliver, having a team, dealing with a team day-to-day, dealing with the challenges of a group, and a network and being completely objective oriented, that is going to be something I need to adjust to. I've also been given some really good advice by a good friend of mine, Sam Finlay, who's X amount of years in the industry and has gone on to be a coach.

51:09John Maloney: And he said, look, just don't rush. Be patient. You've been full on for a long time. One of the big reasons that you decided to make this decision that he also helped me with in terms of talking to me about it was to actually be more present for the kids right so don't be impatient because i did find that you know when you put a when you put a post out on like that on linkedin and i got the response that i did obviously you get quite a few people get in touch and go oh should we have a chat should we do this and i did find myself sort of flirting just i think wanting to make myself feel like you're validated and busy i was doing everything but then you think it's impossible to do all this you can't because you won't be able to do all of it all of it well so i've had to sort of roll myself back a little bit and think right i really need to think about what the next couple of years looks like what is the ambition what's the objective what do i want to achieve don't be impatient actually be for the first time a bit patient and a bit more strategic in my decision making um and if fight night manchester and new york is something that i'm really um it's something i really want to do almost try not to get distracted by everything else that's a possibility and just do that really well and tick that box um so yeah i think i just need to just just keep talking to the people that have helped me and support me in this decision and allow them to keep me on the right track of of not worrying too much about what what the future holds and the objective love that i mean i i'd love to see manchester new york come off and not least because of um the organizations the causes and the charities that you'll be able to support as part of that yeah and do you know what it'll bring you know everyone knows manchester itself is a proud industry of media up there and they also want something to celebrate and be a part of and get behind and support local charities and and you know people that need it reset on their lifestyle or you know scratching itch of something they've always wanted to do or do some fundraising that's slightly different to the marathon or or you know there's anything wrong with those those sorts of challenges they're all amazing but yeah why why why not and I threatened the whole time to do something I just I can never get there and I thought to myself I always look at it every year I'm like well I could do that and then I'm like no it's not for me but you're doing this much and that's why I realized I think you have to find your and I always used to say that to my teams i always used to say to them you know sometimes just being amazing at your day job in this industry isn't enough and you shouldn't you shouldn't see somebody doing something that's extracurricular outside of their day job and think okay i need to be doing that you need to find the thing that you're passionate about you need to find the thing that actually when it's extra beyond the day job you don't have a problem doing it fight night for me has never been something that i've actually thought as a distraction or i shouldn't be doing that because i'm so passionate about it i love it so i've always said to my team in an industry that you know rightly or wrongly is profile driven find a way to elevate your profile but it needs to be something that you're passionate about that you can have value in that you want to do and make this your version of it Well, I met the guys who run the Goalhanger podcasts the other night.

54:48And I took a moment to ask them some questions. Hugely successful, 800 episodes on one of them, which is around history. And I found myself thinking after I'd asked, why did I ask them the questions I asked them? because actually the advice that he gave me was you seem hugely passionate about what you're doing just keep doing it don't think about it don't question why you're doing it uh it seems like you're doing all the right things uh maybe invest a bit of time and effort and money in a producer to give you time back because i pretty much am you know question master script writer booker like you know it's full-on um but it is it's my thing and i love it and i get emotional every time i sit and i talk about it because i just want to make sure that as i said at the beginning of this we we humanize what we do a little bit more even more so with some of the the advancements we're seeing in technology artificial intelligence you can just forget about it because what happens is you just cram more in you don't yes it yes it makes it quicker and yes the output might be stronger but what happens with that space where you make it quicker you just take on more it's just a never-ending cycle so i'm slightly envious of you at the moment being able to take a step back and look and um but i'm equally cheering you on from the sidelines um i can't wait to to hear more so look we'll bring it to a close we we always end the pod with um i guess the permission slip so what permission um would you give to people to think feel say

56:40John Maloney: or do differently than they currently are um i'd advise more junior people in the industry not to confuse confidence with capability um for a long time i looked at people that were extremely confident in what they was doing where i struggled i public speaking and stuff and that for me was oh they're they're capable because they're confident right but what you quickly learn as you as you grow in this industry you're more exposed to senior people you listen to this podcast and the people that have been on it people have the demons people struggle with public speaking people struggle with their confidence people have anxiety right so people if you are you can be capable and work on your confidence i know it's a bit cliche but um stay true to be authentic like at times my background has made me worry or question whether i was able to be in a room or should i be in a room or should i belong and I think someone who was really good for me Tim Irwin who was a great leader of mine you know there was a few pitches where I was so over rehearsed so scripted and so stiff and he just sort of said to me he went mate I don't want you in the room for that I want you in the room for your charisma I want you in the room for your enthusiasm I want you in the room because you build high-performing teams and you know like you're passionate about what you're doing if that doesn't come through in the room there's no point in you being there right so I think like be be authentic be yourself don't think you've got to be somebody different or don't look at somebody who's doing well or succeeding and think okay that's the template for what I need to be because I think it will diminish what what you are and what you could be what you could be good at love that next fight night is in November November sold out sold out in four minutes jesus which is amazing that's incredible so we'll have we'll have close to 2 000 people um in the room again hopefully we raised a load of money for the incredible charities that we wish i could be there work with um and you'll be there mate you can uh ah you'll um you'll be my guest you'll be on the table with me i'll reciprocate for this opportunity which has been actually it's been amazing mate once i've got into it i've actually found it really comfortable so thank you for oh it's been it's been great having you cheers mate it's been great having you and and and i think she won't be expecting it but we should shout out to abby and me um because not only does it sound like she is your rock and she has been an incredible support for you but um she has built a great business that supports many many partners across the industry and agencies um so yeah huge shout out to your your wife abby and all of her team because uh they are ultimately the ones that really make fight night absolutely mate thank you for that amazing thanks john great to have you likewise great great is that all right perfect

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