Permission to Be Kind to Yourself

0:00While every other channel is fighting for your customer's attention, podcasts are where they've already given it. No one accidentally listens to a podcast for 45 minutes. They choose to be here. They trust the voice in their ears. And when that voice talks about your brand, it doesn't sound like advertising. It sounds like a recommendation from a friend. Acast gives you that trust at scale. Digital precision, post-read authenticity, and performance data that proves it worked. Don't fight for attention. Buy it with Acast. Learn more by visiting acast.com slash advertise.

0:57helps me become a better leader and more empathetic and hopefully give some people at least a bit of inspiration that the vulnerability or the differences or the screw-ups are not a major problem. You know, back yourself and be kind to yourself.

1:14Phil, welcome to Behind the Title. It is so great to have you here. We work in the same organization and we just found out we went to the same school a couple of years apart. which is the universe bringing us together very uh very strange for the viewers that are listening today maybe if you could just give a bit of an introduction to you and why it was important for you to come on to today's episode a bit of a history about myself so i mean i've i've been in let's say our industry for longer than i ever thought i would be like many people starting by accident so i've i've been at our mutual employer the last two years but it's the first time I've ever worked in a media agency so for me was like a big risk and then before that I've done sort of research roles commercial roles insights roles across research companies and media companies for like the last I think yeah 25 years which is crazy when I think about it you know into the position where I am today which you know I'm kind of imposter syndrome like oh you're inviting me on and and you know it's it's really nice but you know constantly sort of reassessing and where I am and you know my career kind of happening organically to the point where I am today without any necessary sort of master plan by academia you know I was sort of an economic student and then somehow ended up in media which was useful and then in sort of sales originally which I ended up being quite good at because I like talking but maybe I'm a better listener and I got really passionate about what I did with research and it sort of went from there and and I am sitting opposite you today now when i put the post out yeah i didn't quite expect a sheer volume of interest and responses from people why why is it why was it important to get involved in this i guess like until recently i would have ignored it because be like now i'm not gonna be open and talk about that stuff but you know a few things have kind of happened recently i guess sort of in my life and my career and I guess getting older that has I guess kind of made me more receptive and keener to maybe talk about it and I don't know whether that is you know part midlife crisis or just getting more mature and wiser partly going to therapy which I thank my wife for like you know saying it'll be a good thing and losing a bit of the fear to talk about stuff and that judgment giving kind of less of a monkeys really about what people feel about me so it's kind of like an active decision to maybe share more and be more open because I've spent most of my life not doing that you know masking and covering stuff up not really saying what I think a lot of a lot of the time I don't know why just being guarded and and fear of judgment really so kind of an active decision to you know let's say in the second half of my career which again sounds crazy just I guess being more open about stuff um which is which is which is liberating and to support you as well I appreciate that I think I've shared with you maybe I haven't you know I and I talk about it in every episode because I'm quite open about it you know I've been sober for just over 17 years you know 20th of May 2008 was when I decided to have my last drink and and I'm quite open and honest about that not because I'm here to brag because I hope that it can encourage other people to reach out if they choose to try and overcome their own obstacles but I love what you just said there about going into therapy you know I can't I've done I've done my fair share um and the strangest type of therapy I did was play therapy we've used that ourselves not for me but I'm familiar with that so I so as an adult I've done that and it's it's a it's a bizarre concept but again I think thank you for just opening up about that because for people that are watching this I think you've absolutely qualified while you're sitting in that chair because this is what it's about it's about a leader showing up differently and and that's and that's really important I guess we try and uncover moments in people's career so we call it the backstage pass so where externally everything is going well everything's great but actually behind the curtain yeah things were not the same you know it's a repetitive theme really in my career of like masking you know and pretending everything's all right and not wanting to create a fuss and share and give the impression that everything is is is fine but beneath far from it that has led to problems i can probably pinpoint three times in my professional career where it's just led to like i call it burnout but just stress that is, you know, which is sort of unbearable.

5:55And then, you know, things just unraveling, really. When I was pretty young, sort of, you know, decisions were made, restructures or whatever, claiming everything was fine and, oh, it's all good. And then being quite sort of put out and hurt and lack of confidence beneath the surface. But as opposed to sharing that, just internalizing it and just blowing everything up and literally blowing it up, you know, and getting to that sort of point where I probably could be constructive, talk to people, work it out, but feeling like I'm completely on my own with it and then ending up in a sort of brinksmanship scenario that ends up just being really destructive or, you know, leaving an organization.

6:35You know, so I probably happened first like 20 years ago in my time for one employer overseas. A lot of succession of bad things happened in my personal life quickly. And again, you know, I was sort of doing things up on stage, pushing myself forward, giving the impression that I was absolutely fine. And I was not OK, not OK. And it only took my manager at the time. It wasn't necessarily the big didn't seem like a massive empath. He just he knew because he got me and he was just like, you've got to go. You've got to take you've got to take time off. Forced me out because I was refusing to step away and the panic of everything going wrong.

7:16And it just took somebody who could see beyond it. And, you know, I'm very thankful for that person because I, you know, it wouldn't have been able to go on. If you're going to have like a theme, I think it's sort of that inability to or that fear of sharing and talking about it. And it seems obvious to me also talking about it's good and the therapy thing or, you know, the therapy thing. But it is like that inbuilt sort of fear that, you know, you share stuff and vulnerability and then you get judged and it will count against you. And fundamentally, that's sort of a that's sort of a learned behavior over time, which only now I'm really starting to understand the destructive aspect of that.

7:59And what the reality is that, you know, it's just this sort of perception I've built up and it's not the right way of going about stuff. but that takes many years to unravel and only now am I sort of getting to grips with that but it but it's hard you know and I say it's a journey but I mean it's I'm only at the beginning of really understanding that and I'm trying to change or trying to adapt some of my behaviors at this ripe old age in my 40s I mean I think you are probably one of you know many people in the industry and many others that is of a generation that perhaps didn't have to think about this stuff or it wasn't encouraged and you know that's what you know I'm passionate about is trying to let people know that you can be ambitious you can have focus and passion enthusiasm for what you do but you can also struggle opening up shouldn't be counted against you and in fact I think that sometimes some of the most powerful conversations I've had either with people coming to me or vice versa are when people have been able to disarm or I've been able to disarm other people with this is what's going on for me that's one of the big areas that I'm keen that speakers like yourself contributors on this podcast can do and I guess share about moments in particular where you could have said something different um shit i wish i'd said you know where we can swear we didn't even talk about that i'm fine well is there a limit here no well there i mean not too much not too much just just taper that um okay but is there a story of uh where you've stayed silent be that you know at work in a room in a crisis where you wish you'd said something different You know, one big regret I have is speaking up.

9:52And part of that is fear of conflict as well. And that's another thing about perception that I have conflict because I'm not generally a combative person and feel like when I have conflict, it goes wrong. Some people thrive on it. probably one time where you're working with a very destructive leader and behaviors which I received and other people which fundamentally disagreed with and would talk about sort of behind the scenes but never really you know always pushing it to someone else someone else needs to push this out there make that you know make the change kind of raise it properly and call people out and looking back it's like one of these things that actually it would have been good it would have helped people it would have helped me and sort of burying my head in the sand for fear of you know reprisals or fear of like judgment or what it's going to do for my career or whatever and and doing that in a constructive way again I can think you know a few years ago where there's a whole scenario of that and I wish in hindsight I kind of have the the guts really to properly call that out because it's what my values sort of were and I I feel like I probably could have helped a lot of other people and I didn't and you know I carry a lot of I carry a lot of guilt for that and and again in more you know more recent years as well seeing stuff which I guess standing up for stuff you know that you you don't believe in but having the guts to having the guts to do it I don't know whether it's one of these things you you get older and you just get more confident and as you go up and you feel like you're empowered to do that I think that's the that's the one thing it's really when you just see when you see stuff you you disagree with but you don't speak up about it and yeah I carry I carry a lot of guilt um and I still see things today and I'm trying to be better all the time at being look that's wrong we should talk about it we should call people out I had one recently you know where people are saying stuff I don't think that's professional i want to call people out but i you know and and do that and i should do where i am and i need to do that but i still have a fear of doing that about everything i'm raveling calling people out and uh you know and it's it's kind of a constant battle being aware of making change is i think 50 of the battle yeah the other 50 is creating forums like this where people feel comfortable and it might trigger them to think a little bit differently next time something comes up nine times out of ten you know you you when you when you hit things face on constructively the outcome is in my experience invariably better by having difficult conversation and by doing it some of the best conversations I've ever had have been the most difficult conversations that I didn't want to have going in them with fear thinking about what's going to happen being honest terrified of doing it but then actually being in a much better situation afterwards woods um and you know again logically in my head of course we should do this this is going to be good but my my nature to try and keep things harmonized i've always been a person of like get rid of conflict let's just be harmonized let's all work it out we can all get along is sort of a strength and weakness there's a strength because i've always felt good to bring people along and give people energy and just you know champion people up but at the same time not having the real difficult conversations that need to be had or having them too late and and that as i said that is still a can that's still a continued challenge and something i personally have to work on and put a lot more effort in than you know i assume and maybe i'm wrong than a lot of other people that are happy that are happy to do it but i think i think effort effort can be represented in different ways so I think today is from my perspective is like massive effort so it may not necessarily be something that someone feels comfortable regularly calling out because unfortunately we do we work in a world doesn't matter where you work we work in a world where opinions can be divisive we are all here you have to look after yourself and your family and your own and therefore you know being able to progress and you know you know financially be rewarded you know you don't want to take that away and you know that's a that's a systemic you know capitalism you know challenge that exists but but you talked about there you know the the triggers are there certain triggers that cause you to feel act or behave in a different way in the workplace you know names and noise and that's an adhd that's an ADHD thing that is really difficult for remembering things remembering names and details and meetings and things like that which I you know that's a personal ongoing struggle for me to be like okay having to sort of talk and you know present whilst remembering what happens that is a huge like nervous trigger for me that again I'm still because again the way that the The way a brain like mine works is sort of a million miles an hour over here.

15:08But the other side, logical side of the brain isn't necessarily thinking or recording detail. And that's a huge, that's a massive stress trigger for me. Or in networking or speaking, the ability to sort of hold focus on somebody. That's huge. That's really, really difficult for me. I'd say increasingly so that ability to have functional, high level linear conversations when a lot of stuff is going on around. It's really hard to have a lot of fear going into that with an event or something, talking to people, having a straightforward conversation with all the noise and everything around. That is a massive stress trigger for me at work.

15:49And there's another thing that happens is, you know, the perception of feeling like you're being rude because at a place like ours, it's incredibly noisy. I have to take myself off to think and concentrate and that perception of being rude right it's like something that is constantly playing on my mind going well why is he taking himself off why is he not sat with us I have to do that because the trigger of noise and conversations just completely blows my head up so I have to always be taking myself off to focus to get in that hyper-focused state to complete something otherwise things don't get completed see I I talk to my team quite a lot about this exact trigger there namely because for those that don't necessarily experience that same trigger it might sometimes feel like someone is isolating themselves by putting their headphones in yeah or taking themselves also as you say there yeah and actually what i do because i think it is two-way um i i encourage a teams to be more cognizant it's hard in any organization especially with lots of people being back in the office now and i think people had a period of just quiet and calm yeah um but i also encourage you know certainly people that might experience what you do you have to be cognizant of those people yeah so either letting them know you know actually someone said to me the other day is it worth me getting like a little flag for my laptop which just says i'm in focus mode yeah and i said i personally thought i was like great idea yeah but i think it actually singles yeah you out as an individual rather than rather than actually just saying hey guys i'm just going to go and have some focus time over there hope that's all right yes and then come back into the mix rather than sit there head down closed out that's feeling empowered to be able to talk about that openly right which again i cannot claim to to be have been a role model to to do that with myself in the past until recently because i've never really been open about this stuff until recently now i'm in a podcast talking to you which is i'm doing a wonderful job i should add a wonderful job i don't work with you much but i can get an idea the type of leader you are and a lot of you know people people that we work with are like that luckily we work for an employer that is inclusive and like that all it takes is one I'm a progressive leader, someone who shouldn't be a leader and is who doesn't have that empathy.

18:16And this happens still an awful lot. People being promoted into leadership positions who really are good at doing the business, but shouldn't be in positions managing people or have the empathy to do it, in my opinion. We're in this sort of new paradigm of openness, I'm going to say, over the last sort of 10, 15 years. probably you are with your kids and I'm with my kids talking being open and that's really healthy but at the same time this is not still you know necessarily widespread and it takes one person listening it takes one bad leader who's not on that train to really damage somebody I think and to not give them what they need how we can change that I don't know I think everyone has the best intentions I think sometimes there will be circumstances that people make decisions right or wrong I try to not get in the ring and question myself too much on those decisions because otherwise it creates a sense of one anxiety to entitlement like I I just have to look after what I'm doing so I have to keep my side of the street clean every single day right and not worry about what everyone else is doing because if I do I become I become jealous I become anxious you know my ego is inflated i become fearful i have you know financial insecurity you know all of these all of these um uh behaviors or thoughts or feelings just come up and so i i 100 % get it i try to i try to not get in the ring with it um what makes phil and i don't know why i'm saying in third person terms guys speak back in the third person yeah phil thinks this we'll do that for the rest of this i love that um what makes you comfortable and your best self in the workplace i'm really keen that people can take something from this and you express there around your adhd and um some of the challenges that fate you know you face with that like i want others to know in the workplace and i'm not saying you have the same everyone's the same who has adhd but what makes you your best self either at home in the workplace you know what are the conditions how how can we help others create the right conditions to to thrive one thing is is sort of an understanding that there are fundamental things for people that's you know are really easy like sort of diary management and appointments and things like that that you know you just expect normal and you deal with but actually can be really problematic for someone like me right like overbooking things one thing after another you know doing that moving moving things around and not being respectful of you you know your your your work time your boundaries and that's a two-way thing right because it should require let's say people like me to be better in the way that you're working with your tech and and doing that and i'm not i'm still trying to be good but that's a problem.

21:19It's difficult for me to do that because it's just a blind spot. But I think, you know, fundamentally having people that are sort of respectful of that and understand that it can just be a trigger of stress, it's a massive trigger of stress for me. You know, we talked about the ability to just have spaces from the employer point of view, having spaces to go and think to not break your chain for me is really important creatively but also to have a bit of peace in my mind um and that if i don't have that i i just don't get stuff done to completion right and that is uh again something we we can't all change individually and it requires having a sympathetic employer but that is incredibly um that is incredibly important i think as well sometimes it's just a different way of like the creative process or going through a process and not necessarily going going at a problem in a linear fashion again having people around you who understand the benefit of having different thinking to a problem and are willing to accept that the way that is approached having different ways to approach that is beneficial to come with the outcome it's difficult so surround yourself with people that they understand you know that if you're trying to get from there to there you might go there there there and come up with loads of solutions in the meantime that can be frustrating for people I get it it hands up that I find that really hard and I appreciate and I find that hard I'm not a process person but actually in a sense I've really taught myself to be a process person over the years to dial up that side and to go right dial that up to get to the end i've really worked on that people have to sometimes expand it to get to the idea yeah and give them space to do that and now i'm sometimes not doing that to other people and i'm like oh my god this is my my own worst enemy but you i think you need that you just need people to be cognizant that the way they get to an outcome might take longer it might not be as clear but the outcome might be better yeah i think we we all need to be more cognizant there's a part of me that i think that i embrace where we are in that we are more vocal we are more open we are more considerate there's another part of me that also feels that we have gone too far yeah great and that's just that's my personal opinion and that's also not saying that that's wrong okay just want to be super clear for me it's just having an innate awareness i've learned so doing this process with with with speakers like yourself i've learned so much you just said something to me there that i have an idea that i think could be absolutely revolutionary for for neurodiversity in the workplace you've literally just just sparked something which we'll talk about after um good is this a company you're going to set up that no i'm gonna i'm gonna have a share well i mean yes why not i mean i mean i like i i don't mind saying now like why on earth do we not have uh areas in offices or floors which are specifically set up like you have on a train you know which are quiet zones like a library that are enabled for everyone but they are encouraged for people that might be uh challenged with neurodiversity now i know there's lots of reasons why lots of people say they wouldn't work yeah but at the same time why is it that we cater for the majority and not the minority that for me is an interesting debate to have but that and but that's exactly that's the sort of cognitive dissonance there because i think we've gone too far in some respects we can keep going further we can be accommodating for everything and we should be but also there is a limit to that and the labeling thing as well it's like everyone's different and i think over time and i think my wife said this actually it's like you know it's just it's this better understanding i think that maybe doesn't come across in like you know psychometric testing or um you know sdi the red yes blue green thing that doesn't necessarily come across about the way people work and how to get the best out of them and who they are when they're coming in and what their preferences are because i think as a an employer and an employee if you have an innate well just not an innate but you have a better understanding about what those person's preferences are how they work how they get to a problem what they need in a in a more contemporary way i actually think it would be better for for employer employee and it i think people are sort of working that out and going oh you know they have that you know people people are labeled with this or that everyone's on a spectrum to a degree right i think we can all agree with that but people just work in different ways and i think we just need to like be better to understand what they are what the preferences are and what that person needs to succeed as opposed to accommodating for everything because other you know we just accept that there are differences and work with it yeah and understand what they are because i couldn't rightly say across my team yeah what the preferences were of everyone we talked earlier about you've entered into therapy um you know was there a specific you know moment and and that might be a piece of feedback failure or realization that changed how you see or saw yourself because it sounds like you're sitting here today having reconciled with the fact that you're a bit older more experienced you know you can a take control of you and you can be support others like was there a single moment that changed that for you did you have a did you experience something yeah a combination of things I think sort of the pressure I put myself from a work point of view always trying to kind of push the boundaries and take stuff on and creating levels of stress which are unsustainable and happen again repeated patterns having a partner who's very supportive progressive open and working on sort of self-improvement and over time just working and chipping away is important.

27:39I had some recent bereavements as well. And that was, I guess, sort of a focus because a lot of things came together at one time. And last year was really, you know, it was a difficult year for me. It was sort of transitional year. And there were points that became, you know, very difficult. And I think having people close to you in your life that see that, but have the frustration of seeing the the repetitive aspect of that and then the fear that yeah they're there to support you but if they've seen this they've seen this book before right multiple times and I think there's only so many times somebody can see that that everyone's got patients that will run out and I think people are there to support you but if you're not there really doing something to try and improve that I think that does become a problem and maybe there was the fear that actually if I didn't do that I might lose what I had and thinking about actually how important it is what I have and actually I can't have this inertia because the definition of madness is doing the same thing and and you know expecting exactly uh different results and that not happening so I I think it's I think it is a combination on sort of big life events but also the fear that things may unravel and you can't just repeat this behavior the fatigue of it happening as well the inevitability of it happening again and the fatigue of that and the destructive behaviors that bring that that come with that do you spot it ever i uh only when it's too late it's amazing so i run another event internally uh in our organization and we had a speaker come along a guy called danny gray he founded a business called Jack, J-A-A-Q.

29:25And that's fundamentally what it's been set up to do. So at the moment, we have lots of mental health resources, charities, you've got Minds, you've got Samaritans, you've got, you know, many others, but they're all at the point of crisis. Yeah. What they're not at is at the point of helping people overcome before they get to crisis. And so, you know, I'm a big advocate for being able to take the time out when you just again the trigger yeah oh yeah yeah no that's not it's not quite right so um yeah and i and i i mean again all of that's like this is the thing you know i would give that advice to anyone anyone i work with anyone that work with me but i don't and this is the thing i i can't lead by example which becomes problematic and i'd be like no you are that and i would try and be you know vigilant and go look that's it doesn't matter doesn't matter take time off yeah but then not leading by example in in in that case and and so it going too far in this fear that you know if you're like no i'm going to take time out and give myself time that things are going to fall apart yeah from from a work point of view and again that that's something which you know is logically not right because it should never be right that things are just on one person but this fear that everything's going to sort of pile up and the world's going to come to an end and it's all just in your head i guess that's the theme it's like okay look i have to look after myself more because there's only so much you can you know flog something before it will fall apart and actually coming to the realization that that is okay and not something that you're going to get badly judged or go that person's weak or whatever and that's just taken a long time and I think that's partly who I am that's partly family history partly circumstance of businesses I've worked for and leaders and people I've worked for that are like that uh that has has sort of had a lot of beliefs that have built up that are not true and for me it's I'm picking them at this you know ripe old age and trying to rewire that I don't think it matters when you start the fact that if you just if you recognize that nothing's going to be fixed overnight, but you can start fixing small things over time.

31:49And it takes time to rewire yourself. But I say rewire yourself sounds extreme, but it takes time to unpick things. But I don't think it's ever too late to do that. And, you know, we should just be kind, kind to ourselves because you get older, you've got kids, you've got family. and you're like this is like what is important and it sounds like a cliche but you do maybe sit back and it is a midlife thing and you're like okay well what is important and I still struggle and I say that but I still if you speak to people close to me I go god yeah it's great you say that but actually are you doing it and for me it's that's a real battle as a real thing I'm continuing to try and do every day we like to issue a permission slip I guess give others permission to feel say or stop doing something from today what would your permission slip be for anyone that's listening to this episode it's expanding on the last one but permission to be kind to yourself and have empathy for yourself and permission to step away and to breathe and that time to have distance and giving yourself that permission that it will be fine that everything will continue and that you need you need the permission to sit back and go what do you know what do I need how can I advocate for myself and that's not selfish that's not self-centered that is completely necessary for you to be the best person that you are and if you don't give yourself that space and that time to reflect and that time to think you you are not going to be in the best version of you and you you have to you have to give yourself kindness amazing the advice is spot on because i think we said it before the way that i see myself versus other people most of the time what i i'm hyper alerted to when i you know someone else has not even thought of the amount of times that something has happened and i it's gone round and round in my head and i've had to say to the person i'm sorry they're like for what for what or you know i've had i've sent an email and i'm like oh my god i use the word and instead of if yeah yeah exactly and it or presenting and i get that with presentations and we do lots of pitches right you want it you want everything to be perfect.

34:21The minutiae generally gets forgotten about, but you'll sit there stressing over the fact you didn't deliver that one line perfectly and it doesn't matter. And there may be people that disagree with that, but I think they're wrong. It's about the overall picture, who you are, what your values are, what you present, and you focus on all that minutiae, you will send yourself mad everyone the best bit of advice I ever got from a leader who I won't name but you know went on became very successful in the industry a big CEO who I had the honor of working with closely said to me this is what 2012 someone I respect massively and she said look I screw up things every day Phil every day I get things wrong and I make calls which aren't right and we had to make a call together and it was the wrong call and she goes look this happens and will always happen and you just have to grow move on and learn from it but you will continue to do that and I have taken that and that's sort of a mantra that I have and go look stuff happens and it will continue to to happen so how you deal with it and what you learn from it but that happens to everyone so don't worry if everything isn't perfect phil honestly whatever was in your head before about you sitting there you are you fully earned and qualified that was outstanding just honesty you know about a leader showing up differently you are truly leading the way um so thank you so much for joining pleasure really appreciate it and check out uh the next episode when you can Thanks a lot, guys.

36:31Phil Sumner: of the world's leading podcasts, book host reads or run your own ads, and track every conversion in real time. Same skills you already have, brand new results. Acast. Acast.com slash advertise.