Saying the Word Cancer Out Loud

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0:42Welcome to Behind the Title, where leaders show up differently. On today's episode, I was joined by Mel Kavake, where I was moved to tears. Mel shared her story around cancer and how brave and inspirational she was. It's so important that we normalise this topic in the workplace today. And Mel is absolutely spearheading this from the front. I didn't know anybody who had cancer within the industry. I feel like I have a responsibility for somebody to reach out to me if they've got any questions because I'm here and it's OK. We need to be having more uncomfortable conversations. And cancer is definitely one of them.

1:19But I think if we create a space and we work more together, it's OK to talk about cancer.

1:29Melissa. Hello. Thank you so much for joining today. And actually, thank you for reaching out. Yes. It's a pleasure to host you on Behind the Title. I guess for the listener that may not have worked with you or may not know you, it would be good for you to just introduce yourself, what you currently do. and why it was important to come and share your story on the podcast today. Okay, well, you can call me Mel, which is probably how people know me in the industry. So I'm an out-of-home agency partner at Bauer Media Outdoor, formerly known as Clear Channel. And it was actually a colleague that sent me your LinkedIn post and said you might be interested in this.

2:15and I don't see many people if any but a couple talk about cancer and their real life experience and I thought it was really important as an industry to take more responsibility to talk about cancer because there's actually more going on than we realize and I just wanted to say hello it happened to me and you're going to be okay wow um and and I hope you don't mind me saying this um I think you shared with me you're currently in remission. Yes. Which is... Yes. Still in cancer treatment till next February, but very much in going live your life. Love that. This hits home for me because I lost a parent when I was seven to cancer.

3:03I've managed and dealt with that grief and whatnot. But I think sometimes it is an illness that perhaps is hidden behind closed doors, either because people take time off or you know perhaps you just don't see what happens and I didn't know anybody with cancer who it was always somebody's mum's friends dogs friends like I hadn't as a family or friends around me I didn't know anybody that had had it so and then coming back to work and people and then meeting people and then I put out a link that I sent to you on LinkedIn to say I'm back I'm backing out of home um and I'm enjoying life I was overwhelmed by how many people private messaged me to say like that was really brave I didn't feel like it was brave I felt like I had to do it because it would have felt really contrive just going back to this industry is great and this what's going on in out of home at the moment I wanted to say look I'm back and there's a reason why I've been missing for a little bit because nobody deserves to get cancer um the cancer breast cancer I had like it was hormonal there was nothing I deserved to get to get it it just happened and it's going to happen to somebody else um and i think that's why i also want to say is like yeah nobody deserves it and it's it's okay to talk about it um i hate the word journey because to me a journey is going on holiday but i definitely had an experience so if i can share the experience and show positivity um then i want people to hear it and be able to reach out for it So when you say to a novice, when you say hormonal cancer, I have no idea what that means.

5:03And apologies for my ignorance. What does that entail within the bounds of where you feel comfortable and what's appropriate to share? So every single cancer is different because I thought there's only one type of breast cancer. I also thought, oh, there's a good kind and there's a bad kind. The bad kind is it's a death sentence. and then like you see celebrities get it and like oh yeah they live through it but then when I found out that I had cancer um my surgeon said well what we need it to be is the good kind which is hormonal and I didn't realize it was good and the good kind is that I still have treatment for the next five years where the other cancer they try and get rid of it and if they can then that's it they're just set back out again where I'm on treatment now to stop those hormones attacking my cells that could create breast cancer again and when I get through the five years then hopefully all good to go but every single one is different and and how much have you spent time educating people in your own workplace on it is that is that been a conscious decision to either share share or not share?

6:23Like, because I think within the workplace, and I want to talk about an initiative called Working With Cancer in a second. Yes, I was going to mention them, yes. Which is, you know, actually, yeah, I'm fortunate, I'll say it now, to be part of an organisation that founded it, you know, our chairman, our CEO was diagnosed a couple of years ago and actually realised that there was a stigma in the workplace, that people weren't comfortable talking about it for fear of not being accepted, not being progressed, you know, perhaps being judged or worse off evoking, I guess, an emotion in people where it's like the poor me.

7:00And that's now become a, I guess, a charter, which has been rolled out across many organizations where those organizations are effectively supporting their staff for a year, fully paid, you know, without coming back in, support for families and stuff like that so clearly you're you've experienced that how have you found in the workplace though in terms of actually going back in and explaining to people is that something you felt comfortable with is something you've actively leaned into so I remember calling RMD when I had when I found out I knew I had it because you just know I think um and then when it was confirmed I remember calling the next day and saying it's this it's stage three um and he felt a little bit awkward and but what I was really calling for was to say to him I'm gonna be okay and make sure my job is still there when I come back and and then I could feel a bit of relief because he knew what he had to say to me was like Mel of course we need you back like we need your energy back and we are here you you go and do what you need to do but your your role is here when you get back and when you're better and I was like great okay um just before I um found the lump um my dad had passed away suddenly um and then I found out I had cancer and I remember saying to my line manager um so this is happening um I'm off as of today um and I said can't I want people to know because I don't want them to think something's happened to me um it's okay I'm gonna take this time out and I'm happy for you to tell people but can you just tell them not to mess with me for a hot minute because I'm still getting messages saying I'm thinking about you and your dad how are you getting on today I said I'm still getting those messages so I know it's going to be really overwhelming and then slowly I was going through treatment I remember I got the halfway through the chemo I did six months of chemo and I remember getting halfway through and I said I'm halfway through and I sent this photo and it was an awful photo I was so thin I looked ill I had a cap on because I only had a tiny bit left of hair left which I was so proud of as well because even with a cap I thought I looked okay I definitely didn't but when I was out walking the dog the dog walkers obviously saw me deteriorate but never said anything and just had really nice chats and then I started getting the messages like keep me going and I I love that and I for me I couldn't wait to get back to work because I get my foundation from doing a good job and showing up in good what does good look like and for me when I'm in a session with clients and and talking about their brand and what they're going to do next and then they do the campaign and whatever we've said in that room has landed and I have had a help hand in like creating this amazing campaign that's where I get my foundation from and I needed to get back to that I'm lucky I've got amazing friends and family so it was great coming back into the office but I wish I'd known about the charity you just mentioned working with cancer because I've only recently found out about them because HR had to dust off the books like what do we do with mail we've never had as As long as Clear Channel had been going, they'd had nobody say, I've got cancer.

10:52How are you going to support me? They had no idea. And they had to open up that rule book for me because there's probably going to come somebody down the line and they need to know what good looks like to support people. So it was a slow return. I'm back to four days a week. Well done. Yeah, thank you. It has been tough. because I'm authentically a positive person and it's been, do you know what, everybody has been amazing but I think we're very English and you've probably spoke about this. If somebody says to you, are you okay? Oh yeah, I'm fine. I'm really not fine most of the time and if I've got present on a Monday, I am nailing that presentation all weekend to make sure and I need a quiet because I want to bring that energy yeah it's it's it's been hard and also everybody's really busy as well and I remember saying I'm really busy today and somebody said yeah but we're all busy but what they didn't know is for the first time in two and a half years I was at um an agency and I had a Krispy Kreme and my body literally went into shock and because of all the sugar because it hadn't okay and then yeah and then I was like oh but I need to respond to this and this and this but my body was just saying you just need to go home but I didn't want to give cancer any more power I want to reply to those emails but what I've learned is I just can't have Krispy Kreme at 10 o 'clock in the morning amazing yeah um i mean you covered you covered off some of it before we talk about the backstage pass you know where there was a moment uh where you looked fine on the outside but actually on the inside it was very different now was that you know perhaps before the cancer arrived you know with uh the bereavement you know in your family or was there a moment when you i think you said you just knew i'd go back to like the 9th of december we'd all been out um seeing karaoke and i was celebrating everything for the first time just seemed right like work relationships health like i'd just moved into my perfect class and finished renovating i've met someone and Christmas has started and it just felt so good and the next morning I wake up and my mum told me my dad had passed away and it was complete shock it wasn't it it was a shock for all of us he was my best friend and then had to get through the funeral and Christmas and I remember my mum my sister my brother-in-law were just staring at the wall thinking oh this isn't happening um the move forward um so going back to work and I love exercise team sports I'm a huge netballer um cycling I've got through that through um media and I was like I'm just so tired but obviously it's grief because I've had to be so strong for people around me my dad was one of 10 and and I'm very close family and I was just like I just need to wear myself out I need to grieve but I don't know when it's coming and um I have my mum it's not very good with paperwork so I was finishing work going to the gym going to mum's helping her paperwork and trying to sort things out then going home and I'm sleeping but I'm waking up like I haven't had any sleep and I was like there's something wrong and I remember sitting at my desk one day I remember who I was sitting next to I just burst into tears and then coming out we've where our office up we've got little green a nice green golden square and I was saying to the person I just feel so tired because I'm used to spinning plates working working on like autopilot like I don't complain and I went home and I then called my boss and said, I need two weeks off.

15:09So I booked the most amazing vegan retreat in Thailand. I was, and my mum said to me, you've just booked yourself to have a breakdown. I was like, maybe mum, but I'm going to do it in luxury. I'm going to be absolutely fine. I'm going to be really looked after. Like I'm going to eat like the nicest food. I'm going to eat yoga every day. I couldn't wait. And on the first night, two o 'clock in the morning, jet lagged. I had a shower and then I just felt this lump more in my chest than my boob and it was like a small olive and I was like oh and then I was like that's why I'm so tired did it hurt or no it did like a week later because I've been touching it so much but um I was like that's why I'm so tired but no it's grief we're in Thailand England like eight hours behind i think yeah so i just had to wait to see like an acceptable time to call a friend who i'd actually met through media um and done a lot of cycling with um and i just and i called the gp and they're like you're 40 years old like you're so young absolutely not and actually i'm going to give a shout out to copperfield here because when you're stuck in a hotel room when you're on your own on the other side of the world you do go down google and with google images and what it is and I was like what is that and also you end up looking at the worst stuff and then Copperfield because they had done a campaign with us so give them free space if you can because they do need it um spoke my language and said don't worry like the next step is just to go to the GP and you don't know what it is it could be nothing and the GP said oh no it'd be nothing um and then then got home, then waited for the test.

17:01But I did. I was in every single day because I thought if it is something, then this may be my last chance just to feel normal for a bit. And everybody, because I'd just been on this vegan yoga retreat, I was like, oh, my God, you look amazing. And in my head, I was thinking, I really hope I am. Yeah. I guess during that time from being diagnosed to talking with your one of your leaders to today was there shit that you wish you had said either out loud or to another person or do you feel the conditions were right to say stuff I think what what I'm always keen to ensure certainly with the people I work with is that whether you're in a room in a team you know a crisis don't suffer in silence you know even just day to day so was there was there something that you wish you'd said I don't know what I expected when I came back to work because communication was a bit like oh male's coming back but we're gonna do a bit slowly and how long were you off for um so I was off 16 months 16 months yeah wow yeah because I did six months chemo um but I got halfway through I got really sick and they couldn't let me carry on with chemo until I got my strength up a little bit I was given the hardship um and then another three months there so that brought me up for Christmas another shit Christmas um and then one operation um and then I went straight into um um radiation um radiotherapy sorry and um for every day for months so the longest they can actually give it um to you and I actually they used to love me there because you know like at work people say oh that's a really good job like nobody says like good job like so yeah i used to say to them am i your favorite for today and i was always the first one in the morning so i could just get it over and done with because i really needed that like yeah yeah you did really well today i was like thanks and see you tomorrow um the things i wish i said to work 16 months is a long time actually it's a little bit longer because i had a holiday to you so i was back in the first week of Jan there's so many new people in the office because of movement and agency land changes so a lot of people just saw me I used to have hair like um down to my bum and now I've just got short hair actually when I it was even pixie when I started and that they just saw me a few more pounds on because I haven't been able to exercise exercise I used to it was great like oh Mel's back like well done for coming back but then it's very much like head down like let's get back on to work I would have lived with people said like oh we must do lunch but that lunch never happened because actually work is so busy I should have said actually do you know what that lunch would mean the world to me if we actually went and did it because it's actually it's not about me I've missed out on what you've been up to for the last 18 months and I really want to hear what's been going on with you it's lovely um and also I think communication could have been better because of the short hair and maybe I put on a couple of pounds which you know I'm going to be kind to myself but I've also been a few times within my own company and externally oh Mel I heard you was coming back oh what did you have do you have a boy or a girl and I was like oh no I I had cancer and then we'd laugh because they said it so innocently and it's not their fault and I'm okay with saying that but how did they not know because somebody doesn't want to say the word cancer or just like oh Mel's back back from having cancer she beat it and she's back like that supports her do you do you think I certainly this is my perception that it's possibly the stigma that exists but do you think and this isn't about any of the workplaces we're currently at it's just a general question is there a responsibility on the person that perhaps has had cancer and has returned to communicate to the people they want to to say you know hi I'm back um just so you know here's the 10 things you need to know um but I'm here I'm focused you know you can ask me anything I'd love to catch up with you at some point or do you think it's on the employer to with the with the approval of the person to send something out I think it's a bit of both because everybody's different and everybody's experience is different some people just don't want to talk about it or some people just want to talk about it a lot and I think I'm a bit in between because I just want to turn up and do the best job and I don't want to feel like a victim because of this I I want people to feel comfortable to go oh how was it like glad you're back sort of thing like how are you feeling today or want to ask any questions they actually want to ask um I think there needs to be a bit more of a rule book I think there needs to be an open conversation um because we work in media we all want to look and feel our best and present our best but there should be oh if somebody's dealing with this then there's this support here and actually as a company you need to do this this and this and ask them these because I didn't think about certain things until it took a few months down and be like hang on a second this is right here I think we can like do this a little bit better just before I started treatment I was walking him down a road near me a guy who's been in media forever quite senior he was walking up and I saw him and said oh I have not seen you for the last couple of months and I was like no and I'd had a couple of drinks with the girls and I was like no because I've got cancer I'm just about to start treatment and I got upset because I just thought I'm not going to see these amazing people for a really long time and he was like it's okay I had it 10 years ago and I'm fine and some days you won't even think about it and I thought how have i been on jollies with you and sat next to you not known because i've known him more than 10 years and then since then i've met a couple of other women that have had it that aren't particularly quiet about it but they but they've been incredible but i wish i'd known that they had gone through it when i'd been diagnosed because they look a little bit more like me and immediate yeah do are there are there any um are there any triggers at the moment that make it hard for you to manage your emotions and your feelings yes around it like I absolutely hate being excluded because before I left I was what I felt no I think it's fair that I knew I was doing a good challenge so I and it's nobody's fault but I hate being mansplained a brand to me that wouldn't be even in out of home if I hadn't have done all the work previously it's like oh they're doing this now it's like and this is their history I was like well yeah they wouldn't be even being in out of home if it wasn't for me because I spent so long doing that it's not their fault they've just everybody's been working on different campaigns for like two years and I've not been in the room shouting about all that work and because I've not been there my team have had to learn to create space for me again because they've been getting on without me yeah and then they'll they'll go somewhere and be like can can you like can I come to that please oh yeah sorry but it's just they've just been used to being an autopilot without me but it's hard because I I think on both sides right you know they're probably trying to be kind yeah to be kind to be thoughtful but also not be patronizing and at the same time then they're also just running because we're all running aren't we if we can kind of be quite open about these things and people can feel comfortable and that's why I asked about the the employer employee thing because you know if it was if it was me I'm thinking now I would personally want to send an email like not not rules of engagement but you know no no I would totally wish I had thought about it and actually it wasn't um HR they're like I come back when you're ready and that's it that's kind of it but if they said oh look we've leaned into working with cancer and we've learned this this and this do you want to sit down and go through it but they didn't realize that was available to them I'm only finding out that that's available now and I only found out through somebody who works in media and had cancer told me about it only two months ago so we definitely need more awareness there yeah i i think that's that for me is at the crux of it right and and it was it was it was so serendipitous that you reached out because i really wanted to uh bring this into the workplace and mainly because i ever since my mum passed many many years ago um she also had breast cancer this was 32 years ago the world has changed it's advanced treatments are available but the one thing I've never been able to do is raise awareness or support causes that that champion therapy um and helping people get well and so this is this this to me is quite cathartic you know to to do this because I I don't think I've met anyone in media apart from you.

27:29So Claudine Collins had breast cancer and nobody really knew. But when she came back, she came back with a bang because she started doing the big balls. And she was Cancer Research UK organising five Ks. Was she quite open about this then? I think she was open as in we need to raise awareness. So let's do this and let's do this. I don't think I've ever heard her talk about her experience but I've worked with Mediacom a lot over the years and I have friends at Mediacom who actually even went to Claudine and said no she's going to be okay like where is she now in her stage like think about this so she was very open to helping people there but other than that I didn't know anyone yeah I don't think it to me it doesn't feel like it's a you know bear in mind working with cancer the initiative our ceo our tour within publicist group you know uh he created it because he recognized there was a stigma thank you well i mean thank you to all of us it's one of the reasons why it sounds it sounds sad to say this one of the reasons why i'm still here because for an organization to create an initiative like that one shows they care about their people and two it gives me a sense of security yeah I have a family um you know I'm naturally quite cautious anyway so knowing that there's a bit of a cushion there um really really helps me um to feel like it's okay not to be okay uh you know which I which I think I I struggle with so was there a point um where you looked at yourself in the mirror and you said I don't know it could have been an affirmation it could have been a real sense of realization that because it sounds like you're quite a positive person okay I had it this week weirdly enough so on Wednesday morning it was my three monthly bloods then I sit down with my team and how so I'm going through all the side effects of the most powerful drug that I'm on now which is fatigue um stomach issues um insomnia and I was like I just I need to go back up to five days a week soon and I can't do it I said I'm can do four but I and I could feel myself getting really upset because I feel like so much has been taken away from me maybe opportunities going for a promotion I was like I don't want this to take anything else away from me and she said to me but you're still doing cancer treatment right now what you're doing right now is really good I will assign you to continue to do four days a week till next year I was like no no I don't need that I just need it for a few more months and she was like you know are you okay and I said actually no I'm not and she's like you need to sit down now with your work and sort this out and I and then I was like oh yeah I really do because I then sat down with my line manager with this piece of paper and I said I can only do four days for the next three months because I am really struggling and every month we have that conversation she's amazing and she puts in a health check with me every Monday and just to say you okay and I say yeah I'm fine and I actually said to her every time you say I'm okay and I say yeah I'm fine then we have a little bit of catch up but I'm not okay with saying no I'm not okay I'm only once I've messaged her on the going coming into work I've messaged her and said I really need to work from home today and she said yeah of course nobody else been putting this pressure on me to get back to five days a week it's only been me because I feel like I've missed out and I and I you know how competitive our industry is I was like I've been putting that pressure on me to like claw back but it's literally been this week when I when I'm actually going okay for this year you're gonna do a really good job but you're gonna give yourself grace that actually you may not be getting that promotion or you may have to say no to things you just want to do a good job on what you can at the moment and I've been fighting that conversation with myself since January and it's been so hard.

32:08I actually feel quite relieved that I've actually admitted to myself. I absolutely love that. I feel like we've kind of been building to that without, I didn't, you know, I didn't even expect that. It feels like you've now reconciled. I have an illness. I'm treating that illness. I have an ambition i'm trying to fulfill on that ambition but i can't do everything and actually what i need to do is focus on me yeah because if i don't focus on me none of the other stuff is possible yeah i sit here now and feel incredibly inferior and not for any other reason than i'm in awe of people like you i'm in awe of people that are willing to sit down yeah i can feel it now I can you know but willing to sit down and share their story but importantly open and honest enough to say yes I'm ambitious yes I recognize there will be some limitations you know because of where I am at the moment and that is what it is it's just a fact of life but at the same time I recognize that now may not be the time for that aggressive growth and pushing work like yeah I because when I put out this LinkedIn post say I'm back I'm I'm okay because I thought do I write that because do I want people in the in the industry to know because is that going to hinder my career for the future if they do know and I spoke to somebody about it she said that's even sad that you've you think like that you write that post so I wrote that post and then I I know these are compliments and what you just said it feels like a huge compliment coming from you um you're brave um inspirational I know that I'm resilient I know I'm really fucking resilient but I didn't feel brave at all because I didn't go to go and get cancer be brave I did it I feel more braver doing this today with you than I did then I didn't go out to be inspirational because but I hope from this if one girl hears this and she's felt a little lump that literally comes up nowhere just go and get checked tomorrow at 99 sure it's gonna be nothing I think it's it's gonna be fine for me that's what this is about right if I can if I can create a platform that helps one person whether it's around illness whether it's around hidden disability whether it's around burnout whether it's just around anxiety stress whatever it may be I believe that I was uh assigned a role in this world today to try and inspire and give people um I guess that little nudge that little nudge just to move forward um and that for me I get so much self-gratification from doing this because like yeah okay I I you know I'm I'm creating something really cool, you know, behind the title is an expansion of what I'd started doing eight months ago, really just to challenge myself.

35:24I wanted to film some content, edit it, learn how to do it. Actually, when I used to run, I used to think I could take over the world. So I just, all these thoughts and I just wanted to broadcast them. And then I just thought, well, sod it, I'm just going to start. I'm going to start and then this opportunity came up. That's the hardest bit, right? Yeah. Because like once you get to the gym, it's fine. it's the hardest bit of it's actually just getting there but but like you know even you know you know the guys at yahoo supported me um you know helping me you know kind of shape this and and to them i'll be forever grateful because as you say sometimes it's just start by starting but i know that the intention behind this is to just raise the or elevate the importance of these topics.

36:14Behavior change takes time, you know, so things like cancer in the workplace, it will take time, you know, for change to happen. And that's not because everyone's in the wrong. It's just because maybe the way people manage it is different to others. And so I think you speaking out today, it is incredibly brave and and you know for that you know I am grateful I'm grateful that you reached out and I'm grateful that you've been so open and honest um I guess really um to bring this to a bit of a close we try and give people um you know if you imagine there's a a physical permission slip right give people permission to um feel say or stop doing something from today I give permission for people to say the word cancer and it not be a scary word because people are still people right I'm still the same person and values and everything I just had this experience and it's okay I went through it because I've come out through the other side and I think be positive around cancer too it's it's not always means death and if people can talk about it more then actually you're going to create more change and learn actually how more to talk about it sorry that doesn't really make sense I just know it really does like one of my first days back in the office I jumped and bumped into one of the colleagues and I said to him oh my god you've now got more hair than me and he said to another colleague oh god I feel awful but I was like no I was like happy his hair had grown and I and also I'm thinking there you go Mel you're gonna have longer hair than him one day and it's you know we're on a bit of a I don't know because I didn't get to ring a bell because I didn't want to because I had so much more treatment ahead of me so this bit now is ringing the bell I'm back at work let's celebrate oh my god that's like that's incredible like I mean Jesus that is I don't know like that touched me oh really oh good well just just because Sorry, that really came off the spot.

38:25I've never said that before. The fact that you're saying that being here today, totally unscripted, is like ringing the cancer bell. Like, that is, A, this doesn't deserve that. But if that is how you feel, that's incredible. It justifies why this is the right thing to do. because you've just you've created a space to tell my story and it'd be okay and those that want to listen to it it's okay or those don't it's fine because somebody probably knows somebody there's somebody that's going through it and then yeah I just I just want it to help one person and that's okay I'm still I'm still I still feel um I feel really emotional over that um don't because or make me stuff.

39:15No, it's fine. I think that that's what this stuff is about, right? I think you have been an incredible guest. You would have given others hope that it's okay and that it doesn't need to be scary. I think you would have given others permission to talk about it and not be afraid of it. And I think you would have inspired people to know that you can live life still whilst being, let's just say, a transitional period during realness. Melissa, thank you so much for coming today. It's been an absolute honour, pleasure. I can't wait to see your journey as you go on. Thank you for joining.

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