The Cost of Staying Silent

0:00If your eyes are the windows to your soul, and your glasses are the windows to your eyes, then it's pretty important to find your perfect frames. That's why at Warby Parker, we've made shopping for eyewear as easy and fun as can be. Peruse endless styles in our stores, or use our app to virtually try on frames and get personalized recommendations. To find your next favorite pair of glasses, sunglasses, or contact lenses, or to locate your nearest Warby Parker store, head over to WarbyParker.com. That's WarbyParker.com. I'm Danny White-Scorn, and this is Behind the Title. Today we're joined by Jess Gross, Managing Partner at MSL.

0:39Jess is courageously sharing her experience with miscarriage, a topic that remains somewhat a taboo in the workplace. I've been through this three times. I've kept this secret for so long from so many people. I can't live what feels like a lie. I had a total panic attack and breakdown. And I didn't have a choice but to take time off because I just... And I'm sure it was because I didn't give myself the grace and the space to process. I didn't talk to people. I kept it quiet. I definitely didn't tell my colleagues. I definitely didn't tell my team. It was awful. And I was done pretending that I was OK.

1:17With an estimated quarter of a million miscarriages occurring every year, it's crucial to understand the impact on those affected in the workplace and explore what more can be done to support them.

1:31Jess, lovely to have you and welcome to Behind the Title. For those that may not know you, if you could start by just giving a brief introduction to who you are, a bit about your career and in particular why it was so important for you to come on the podcast today. I'm Jess Gross. I'm a managing partner at MSL. I lead our consumer brand offer and I've been in agency environments now for about 20 years which is insane I think in the UK or so I did just under half of that in the US even though I've been here 12 years can't shake the accent and I was based in San Francisco I started out in tech PR and moved around I basically worked in every single sector every single industry but consumer has always been where like my passion and heart have lied.

2:22And then, yeah, I've been in the UK for 12 years, which is kind of crazy because I thought it would be about five and here I am still going strong. And I've worked at every different size of agency as well. So I've worked at like teeny tiny startups. I've worked for every kind of size and scale of organization and brand. So very kind of varied background of experience. And why, I guess, was it important for you to come on today? Obviously, we spoke, I think I probably cornered you actually unexpectedly when you shared something quite personal for you. Yeah, I mean, first of all, I love what you're doing.

3:02And I think it's so important that we talk about things that lots of people don't talk about, especially I was saying before. I think if you don't work in this industry, it's really hard for people to get it. Yeah. Right? Like if you're in it, you're like, oh, yeah, I see you. I feel you. I get it. And I think probably every industry has that, right? So the fact that we work in an industry that is typically so focused on communicating in whatever discipline that is, so often there are so many topics that we don't talk about or we don't talk about enough, right? And I think we are in certain sectors starting to, but in lots of places that's not happening enough.

3:45And for me, one of the topics I think is that's really important and, you know, hits close to home is miscarriage. So somebody who went through multiple miscarriages, three in total, during a really difficult time in life and moved multiple jobs in that time. It was an insane time of my life. And I think being able to talk about it, I try to be pretty open with people today. I think I've come a long way. But I think also for me, for this, it's quite therapeutic. Have you ever spoken about it before? I speak about it. So I try to be really open now within the organization that I'm in, really open with teams.

4:31Obviously, in the industry that I work in as well, it's dominated by women. And I also think that's another reason, like we can't go around ignoring that, particularly when you look at consumer PR, it's typically dominated by women in that profession and career. And to not be talking about something that could, in theory, affect more than a quarter of that population that you're working alongside feels pretty insane to me. I assume on the outside, everything looked great. What was actually happening kind of behind the scenes? Yeah, I mean, the summary would be absolutely broken and like, obviously, in very different ways, I would say.

5:16And in thinking back and reflecting, because it has been some time for me. And, you know, my story, everybody's story around miscarriage as well, I think it's important to know it will be totally different. It will feel different. There will be it will happen at different phases, whether it's when they're first trying for their first child. There's also huge can be huge complications and issues around trying actually the second time. So everyone's story will be different. Right. So my story is I actually had so I had my eldest and I got pregnant really easily. And I think, you know, there are a lot of women out there where that happens and it's great.

5:55And, you know, I think in that sense, if I'm honest, like ignorance was bliss. So then in typical fashion, we were deciding to like, let's try for another, that whole process. But again, even that let's try for another, you start to switch your mentality into, okay, this is a thing. And this is what our picture is going to look like. Like we're now going to go from being a family of three, which we're super grateful and happy and whatever, to this family of four that I've always imagined in my head. And so you're in a different mental state about and you've gone through it. So you think, you know, so there's all these kind of complexities, I think, that come into play mentally.

6:37So the first time it happened, actually, first of all, I had difficulty getting pregnant, which I hadn't had the first time around. So that took quite a while. which was painful in itself and all of the things that I was doing to try and get pregnant. We then at the same time, again, if I reflect that upon career, right, I was at a point in my career where quite pivotal point of like wanting to move up, you know, climb the career ladder, et cetera. I'd come back from maternity leave, charging hard, the whole balancing act of being a mom now in the workplace, et cetera. And things, I was ready to make a move.

7:15But at the same time, I was thinking, well, I'm going to get pregnant. So I shouldn't leave my job because I want the maternity cover. And I'm in a position where, at least if I'm pregnant, I won't have to totally bust my ass. Don't get me wrong, hard worker, through and through, but a different level. So all these things are coming into play. So I'm like, no, I'm not going to go. No, I'm going to go. No, I'm not going to go. I finally decide we're not getting pregnant. And so I'm like, you know what? I need a change in general because I'm so obsessed with trying to climb the ladder, but I'm also obsessing at the same time about what isn't happening in my life that I thought would happen by now.

7:54So I make a call to leave. Great job. Get this other job. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to do it and whatever. I resign from my role. I then find out like within five days of resigning from my role. And obviously I'm on a traditional industry, longer term a notice period that I'm pregnant. So now I've quit my job where I have the stability. I've taken a risk on a promotion and I'm pregnant. And so on the one hand, I'm elated. On the other hand, I'm like, oh my God, how am I going to navigate this? Because also by the time I do the masks on it and by the time I start my new job, I am quite literally going to be three months pregnant, which, you know, in typical standard, that's where we're like, great, you're safe or this or that or whatever.

8:41So how am I going to do this? So all these things are happening, but I'm, I'm committed to it. And I'm like, I'll figure it out. I'll navigate it. So I work my notice period hiding the entire time, obviously, as you do that I'm pregnant. And it gets to my final week in my final week. I'm also days away from having my 12 week scan. So I'm getting to this point of like, great, A, I can start to talk about it. B, I can start to feel a little bit less like panicked, et cetera. And my place of work was planning me. I'd been there a long time, like a great like leaving party. And of course, I'm thinking, how am I not going to drink at this thing?

9:19And all of these things that go into play in the background. And I wake up one day and I'm bleeding. And this is like four days left in my work, wake at my final job. Oh, and meanwhile, at the other company, I'd started talking to them behind the scenes. And I was actually going to join a pitch that week. So I go to my GP. My GP tells me, like, there's nothing we can do for you here. Mind you, I'm in this horrific moment. You need to go to the hospital where you're registered through maternity care. Go to go to maternity care where I'm registered. They're like, oh, we can't do anything for you here.

9:59you need to go to an early pregnancy unit, which is at an entirely different hospital, an entirely different part of London. How long ago was this? How many years ago? So this was six years ago. So again, there weren't that many early pregnancy units. Yeah, there aren't. There aren't. So all of this is happening, whilst what is happening in my body, and obviously the sheer pain and panic of what's going on. And I'm going around London to try and figure out what I'm supposed to be doing. get to the early pregnancy unit. And now at the same time, I'm like, what do I tell to my current job? What do I tell to the new job?

10:40And the fact that I'm supposed to be in a pitch tomorrow. And so I'm in the early pregnancy unit, which even though what's going on is going on, you're still waiting and you're still waiting for hours. So this is all happening. Mind you, again, I'm days away from supposed to take this 12-week scan and yay, happy me, I'm having a baby. So I have to call both employers, my old employer, to say, by the way, I'm miscarrying and I'm not going to be there the rest of the week. Please, can you tell people something that isn't weird, like I just haven't shown up to work for the last week, but I'm not sure what to tell them.

11:18And then I have to tell my new employer, this is really strange way to like start, but I'm not going to be in that pitch tomorrow. I'm also not going to start next week. I don't think, again, I didn't want to commit because that's weird. And I'm supposed to start this job in this big role. Oh, and by the way, I'm miscarrying. So now I've also shown my cards, which is a big thing for women, that no matter what happens, this employer who I've just started with now knows that obviously I'm trying to have a baby. It could possibly hinder your chances of progression. Yeah. And I think we'd like to think that people don't think like that.

11:58I know plenty of people, I'm sure we both do, where that would never be a thing and never be a thought, et cetera. But there are equally places where it is a thought or where I've been, where it has been a thought. I'd like to think that we're moving away from that thinking, But I also think that some of the narrative that's going on at, you know, even a global level around women's issues or even locally around women going back to work once they've had kids and what's happening in the narrative. I think in some senses, we're actually possibly going backward. That being said, I would just say in that situation, so just going back to my personal experience, right, and I can vividly remember standing on the pavement outside the early pregnancy unit of this particular London hospital on the phone whilst this was happening to me, having that conversation with this like new boss.

12:54and I have to say I went on to so I went on to work for that um job which we'll you know probably talk about again in a minute but that particular individual was unbelievably incredible a in that moment and b throughout the trajectory of me working with them they've gone on to be a friend a mentor now um they were they were I worked for this person for the three miscarriages that I went through in the end. And the fact as well, you know, he was amazing. And to be able to speak to me as a woman going through that as a man, et cetera, it was incredible. And I was, I am and continue to be so grateful for that experience that I had with that individual.

13:39I think what, what really kind of touches me is just the psychological impact this has on that individual who is carrying a child, right? Not only to have to process the grief, but process the grief and almost get on with it two weeks later. I did eventually decide I needed more time than, hey, I'll see you Monday. And took some time, took a few weeks off and delayed, but then walking into that organization, knowing that whatever was said about why I had started later than I was supposed to as a kind of senior leader just felt uncomfortable. And then, you know, now I'm in a business that I've shown my cards.

14:30But again, I will later learn that the individual I was working for was an absolute rock star. And I was so lucky to be in that situation and such during that time. But, you know, and then I go on and again, we're trying again. And I get pregnant eventually. And I have another miscarriage. And at this point, you're thinking, first of all, OK, I know the stats. Because the first time I went in, they tell me the stat. One and four. You know, this guy, whatever, which is not helpful at all. Great. I'm a statistic. Now I'm like, well, I'm not a statistic. Because I'm now two and four. So like, how does this work?

15:07Like, why is this happening? Equally, as I'm trying to poke questions and understand things more, And I'm not able to get access to that because, to be honest, the health system is set up of, okay, this happens. It's a thing. So come back to us after three times. But the infrastructure from a societal point of view is also not there. I also am not, again, I'm in another situation where I'm not telling people that I'm trying. I'm not in a safe zone. I've now had a miscarriage. Do I tell people that? Do I not tell people that? That second time around, I was also in a scenario where I had to be in the hospital on my own because of circumstances at home.

15:48And so I'm finding all this out. And it's also people don't take into account the way that you find out and how you process that or you don't and all of those things that go into play. And here I am back at work. It happened, I think, on a Saturday. I was back at work on a Monday. Wow. And that time didn't even tell anyone. And I didn't tell anyone. I didn't even tell that individual who was amazing and super supportive until because I didn't process. About six weeks later, which would have been the time that from the first miscarriage that I probably was around the time that I would have been due.

16:28I had a total, total panic attack and breakdown. And I didn't have a choice but to take time off because I just. and I'm sure it was because I didn't give myself the grace and the space to process. I didn't talk to people. I kept it quiet. I definitely didn't tell my colleagues. I definitely didn't tell my team. Do you wish you'd said something? Yeah. So now in hindsight, those are the things that I think about. I think by the third time, so fast forward to the third time, I'm still in the same organization. Third time happens. Um, and at this stage, it's like, I cannot believe this is happening.

17:10And third time happens in a different way. So this is what I mean about the way that women process, because every time is going to be different. The third time happens by at this point, I'm smart enough to know, go for an early scan to try and ease my mind. How many weeks is that? So you, they can see, they can start to see a heartbeat around seven weeks. Okay. And so my advice also to people who are nervous is like push to get a free scan through an early pregnancy unit. But you can also pay to go private. And it's not super expensive to do it just for like a tiny bit of peace of mind on the journey.

17:48So I go for this early scan thinking everything's fine. And I get in and they basically question me around timings, et cetera, because they're sad the baby isn't growing. So either your timings are off, which if you're in my case and you're a woman counting every single day to the second, your timings aren't wrong. Or they're said you're miscarrying. So now I'm going home. I'm not even technically miscarrying yet. I'm technically still pregnant. But I have to live with that. And then a few days later, I'm at a gathering in the summer with my friends. And I miscarry literally in my friend's bathroom.

18:29And I don't tell anyone in that situation. I made an excuse, time to go home, whatever. And then in that scenario, I was at home going through this, you know, with my small child there, my husband. But essentially having labor pains, which having had a child, I knew what that felt like, which was almost mentally that much more excruciating and painful because it felt exactly the same. but knowing what was happening that time I did then call again, the amazing individual that I happened to work for and just bawled my eyes out and was like, I need time off, et cetera. And that time I was like, I want you to tell my team something just switch where I was like, fuck this.

19:17Like I've been through this three times. I've kept this like dirty little secret for so long from so many people. I can't live what feels like a lie of my life in this deep, dark place and hole. Meanwhile, every day I'm showing up, every day I'm performing, every day I'm running teams, every day I'm sat in board meetings, you know, pitching clients, all of this, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, because that's what we have to do in our industry, right? And not to mention the stuff you need to show up in your personal life. And, you know, and it was awful. And I was done pretending that I was okay.

19:55I guess that there are, there are different triggers probably in the workplace when you're going through that sort of thing. Um, but also outside, especially when you think about psychological impacts, like were there certain things in the immediate after events, So certain triggers that just made you feel uncomfortable, uncertain, doubt yourself, snap. You know, what were those triggers for you? For anyone, I think, who's on that journey around trying to have a family, whether it's start a family, build, extend their family, etc. There's a lot of triggers generally in society, right? And so much of that stuff you can't get away from, right?

20:45If you're trying to have a baby, going to the grocery store and seeing someone pregnant or buying nappies is a trigger. Getting on the bus and hearing a baby cry or laugh is a trigger. Any of that stuff in society, right? And you can't change that. And that's really difficult. And I think understanding that sometimes for people in those environments just to get to work, there are so many triggers around them that have built up that you can't escape. Right. I think the other thing that I look back on, actually, and I'd like to think there's some of that stuff that I try to take into consideration is like, on the one hand, when somebody's pregnant, you know, it's great as a business to be able to be excited for and support them.

21:35I think recognizing that for everybody, that isn't a one size fits all model around how we celebrate or how publicly or what that looks like or how it's communicated to different people or clients, etc. I think it's recognizing, for example, one of the biggest triggers in that time. And since, you know, I sense have known loads of women to miscarry, sadly, as well as have, you know, loads of other difficulties that come in that journey. sending around or sharing i mean even in friendship groups like if you're a mate out there is like sending around without knowing a scan is like one of the most triggering things or at least it was for me and as in if if you're in a group and someone sends yeah okay which is very much and i think back now and i'm and i think about the first time you know when i had my my eldest um and i was obviously so excited as you know as anyone should be and free to be and at the time the organization i worked for was amazing organization i should say and and um they we did a company newsletter and anytime someone was like pregnant or had a baby they'd include like a scan when somebody when we were announcing to the business that someone was pregnant.

23:00Bold. You know, this was, you know, eight and a half years ago, but I think about now and I'm like that is just, I mean, that's one of the biggest things is I think for any individual is a trigger. Have you experienced in the workplace, a colleague also going through miscarriage? Oh yeah. Loads since then. And I think that's what, that's part of the reason, And again, when they asked me, like, why did you want to come on here? And I think, as I said to you, it's like I've talked to and I try to be really open with not only like the team that I work with and alongside, but the wider business, of course, and the roles that you and I play around the journey that I've had.

23:44Because I also appreciate that on the surface, and I should say, like, I'm very, very fortunate. I'm in a different place now. I have two boys, one who's eight and one who's four. And so I did get that second child that was really important to my family and my future, which they call a rainbow baby. And he's very much that. So I should add that not everybody has that happy ending after going through a miscarriage. And I have had that. So to a lot of people now that I am in the place that I am and post having children, it can be like, well, you know, look at that family of four, et cetera, et cetera.

24:26So trying to break down the barrier of, it isn't necessarily back to the whole point of this podcast. Like things aren't always as they appear or you don't know what someone's went, gone through in order to get to that place or, and that's for anything. There are a number of different conditions, illnesses that specifically affect women that obviously don't affect men. And when I, when I tried to draw parallels, of course, like, you know, cancer could affect a man and a woman, uh, having Crohn's disease could affect a man and a woman. But when I think about two in particular, it's probably more than two, but if I take miscarriage, if I take menopause, they're just two in which affect women silently without anyone knowing a thing.

25:24I think that we've become a lot more open to hearing from any gender in terms of what's going on for them. It sounds like you had your moment on the third miscarriage where you were just like, sod it. Yeah. I'm just going to share. Is there a regret in you that you didn't on the first or second speak up and out? Like in theory, yes. Right. In theory, yes. I think in reality, I wasn't mentally in a place, especially the first time. I think the second time I was also not mentally and the second time, especially I was in a mental place of like, well, I've already this has already happened to me. And I just completely blocked it out.

26:15but I do I think it's underrated how much happens to you even just looking at in that period of time that those three things those three miscarriages are happening to me how much is happening and changing for a woman and her body and her brain and everything that's going on from being pregnant to not being pregnant to being pregnant to not being pregnant all of those things that are happening to you and your body in that time that can impact like who you are and how you are and how you show up at work and those kinds of things. Right. Did they ever give you some sort of guide on what they thought maybe was causing them?

26:55No. So again, right. It's kind of, sorry, see you next time. And actually, interestingly enough. So after the third time, yes, I did say like, fuck this. I'm talking about it. I'm done. And at that point in time, I decided I, um, I was like, I'm done trying until I get answers. Like I cannot fundamentally do this anymore. I cannot live like this. I'm living in this deep, dark black hole of like all consuming, but also trying to do my job and all of those kinds of things. Um, and so I was like, we're putting a pause on it. and we went private and we started to do some exploration and exploring like different avenues and loads of testing and all of this kind of stuff, which again, isn't cheap.

27:48But I was at, you know, a point in my life where I felt so desperate and the way, yes, now I've ticked the box and can get on the, but again, you know, no diss on the health service, but considering the situations that we're up against, like the wait list then now I'm in the queue is ages. And I'm I don't want to wait ages anymore. It's already been quite a journey and quite a time period. And so I did start to go down a path of getting answers. Now, interestingly, and you actually do then go on to hear a lot of stories similarly, is we were in this waiting pattern. I said, I'm not doing this anymore, et cetera, et cetera.

28:29And I was on a shoot for a client. And at this point, because I'm not trying, I'm like, I'm trying to block out my period. I'm trying to block out the days. I'm trying to just think, I'm trying to convince myself that like, I only want one child. I'm trying to pour everything into my job, my one child, super mom to this one, you know, everything, forget it, block it out. It doesn't matter to you anymore. Get over it kind of vibes. And I'm on this shoot for a client and I get home and I'm like, oh, that's weird. like, no, it can't be. Take a pregnancy test. Find out I'm pregnant. And I'm like, so instantly I'm like, great.

29:11Here we go again, kind of vibes or whatever. And I call the clinic that we're working with privately to be like, so this is a thing. We were in the midst of a bunch of testing, but they were starting to get some theories around what was going on. So they're like, well, there's not a lot we can do right now, but we can give you. So they give me, and I think you and I discussed this, some tablets as a steroid that essentially helps with implantation. Now, thankfully for me, I then went on to have my son, who's now four and was successful. But again, I don't know whether that was the solution or not.

29:50And everyone's situation will be different. Of course. What was interesting, again, if I go back to reflecting on that time and that moment in my career, is I am at a situation where I'm now working for somebody who was absolutely vile. So not the hero person. and I had just been through a period of helping to go through a merger, bringing two teams into one, working for, as it so happens, a woman who was horrific, who the third time I miscarried and she knew about it, never even acknowledged, never said anything to me, nothing, when I came back to work. And I find out I'm pregnant and I'm on my way into work the next stay and I've got all this pressure and we're heading into Q4, busiest time in our industry, et cetera, et cetera.

30:43And I hadn't even spoke to my husband about it. And I just walked in the building and I was like, I'm not doing this. And I quit. Wow. The day after I found out because I was, and again, there's no evidence to say that the reason I miscarried was stress or any of that, right? But in my mind, given the hell, the utter hell that I had been through from a personal point of view and had to show up every single day and play that part and do that job. And now I'm in an ecosystem where I'm working for an unsupportive leader and heading into an insane period of time and all of this stuff going on within the business and where values, most importantly didn't align.

31:32I just thought, I don't, I'm not going to get maternity leave. I don't know. I don't know if this pregnancy is A, going to even go all the way, but whether I miscarry, whether I have a child, I can't work in this organization. And I walked out. I guess at that point, then the family kind of dynamic becomes really important. And so how, how was, how was that, you know, how was that managing? You obviously had a child already. Yeah. So it was, you know, I remember calling my husband and saying like, so yeah. It was sad because I loved my team, right? I loved my team, but I was in a situation where after so long and where we give and you have to show up so much.

32:25And I was so stressed out, obviously on a personal level, not to mention the pressures as a, as a business. Um, I just, I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it all. And I couldn't deal with, I wasn't in a safe space to be able to say, by the way, which I know, you know, that I've had these miscarriages, I'm now pregnant and I might miscarry again. And so I need you to be mindful of that and aware that I'm going to, you know, I'm going to show up and do my job, but I need you to be conscious of that. I wasn't in that environment, even in my role as a board member. And I knew that if I miscarried again, it was going to be excruciating and what that was going to mean.

33:09And therefore what that was going to mean to like my team, et cetera. And I just felt like I needed to extract myself from that and figure out a new path. which by the way, also wasn't going to be that I wasn't going to work the entire time. I still had to work. So I didn't have a plan. I just knew that I can't do this in this environment because my values and my support system with this particular individual isn't there. But it sounds like you had a good support system at home with your partner, which probably helped make it all possible. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. And I appreciate, I should say like some people wouldn't be in that situation.

33:54Now I was in a situation which was, okay, well, I've made this call, but now I need a plan because that plan, I wasn't in a situation where I could not work for nine months. That's incredible. What, what a, what a story, what a journey and what, what honesty. So the one thing I was actually thinking about on my way in here is I was like, you know, even again within big organizations that have robust systems and trainings and stuff in place, I'm like, where's the training for business leaders on dealing with miscarriage within their staff and how to handle that and, you know, those kinds of things.

34:38Like, for example, one of the most frequent questions I think that comes up if you are open in an individual is people saying, you know, how many weeks were you?

34:55Which, again, can be quite triggering to the individual. And now, depending on where you are in that journey, but, you know, miscarriage is classified as miscarriage up to 24 weeks, which most people don't realize. But for that particular individual, even if it's week six, it doesn't matter. It's horrible. And it's, in some instances, what feels like the end of their life in that moment in time because of the journey and the dream and everything. But the fact that there isn't, I don't see those trainings in place. And for business leaders to better understand, how do we navigate this? And do we have policies in place?

35:37And, you know, eventually when I came out the other side and I went on to take the role that I'm now in, one of the things I did, even though I was done in my head having kids, one of the first things I did when I interviewed was I searched to understand if they had a miscarriage policy and what their policies around people's journey to building families looked like. Because for me, even though I was done and it's not going to personally benefit me, it mattered to me. as a leader, to be in an organization where that stuff existed. One thing I do want to mention, you're right. You're totally right around it being predominantly affecting women and absolutely physically, you cannot take that away.

36:21But I also think it's really important for people to think about the other person. If there's another person on that journey, what that other person, an individual where it's not physically happening to them, but mentally it's happening to them, what they go through and what matters to them. Really important point. Because I suspect that those people will never speak up. No. And what happens to them and what happens to them when they don't get any time off. Of course. When they show up for work the next day, when they're in a meeting and someone says to them, oh, are you guys planning to have another?

37:04Or do you want children? and how triggering and awful that that can be for those people. So I do think, again, whatever your kind of dynamic is at home, but absolutely recognizing as well that, yes, for me, it was absolutely horrific and traumatizing physically, mentally, emotionally, every single thing. But there was another person involved in that. and the triggers that, and the things that happened for my husband and in lots of other situations shouldn't be ignored either. So what permission would you give to individuals, um, and organizations to either think, feel, say, do, act, uh, in order to help either the individual, uh those that are connected or indeed those that are not connected to someone that is going through such trauma like a miscarriage i mean i think first and foremost it's like you've got to have people in place in leadership roles who can be empathetic and understanding like whether you're a leader who has kids or doesn't have kids right because oftentimes i also hear Well, they don't have children, so they don't understand.

38:28Right. I mean, I think any leader's responsibility is to understand and be able to be in a place to try to understand the different dynamics of the different individuals within their team. It shouldn't just come down to they don't have children or they do have children or they whatever. So first and foremost, I think it's empathy. And I think second of all is creating an environment from the beginning when you are hiring people, when you're recruiting people that feels like they can be honest with you to whatever extent and everyone's boundary is going to look different. Right. But I think, and you talk about this in other episodes of your podcast is like the more business leaders are open about things that are specific to them.

39:10And for everyone, And that's not going to be miscarriage, right? But the more that leaders will stand up and share about things that are specific to them or difficulties they've had or the journey that they've been on for whatever it is, I think that is creating an environment where more people around them are going to feel more confident or comfortable to come to the table and discuss things. Like you've obviously, you know, you've talked about it, but you've had experiences that in your role where people, because you're so open about certain topics, people will probably come to you. People probably come to you that aren't even in your team, right?

39:45And so creating that environment where we're talking about things, and that's the whole point of this, is like, I want people within my team or industry to recognize and hopefully see that if there's something going on, I might not know or have personally experienced it, but being able to be empathetic to and understand that every single person or, you know, behind every single individual and our organizations is people with real lives and real stuff. Yeah. I mean, for me, just having you on this podcast, I'm confident that you will touch many people, not only just with sharing your experience, but hopefully the discussion around perhaps the need to get more data, you know, and that needs more people speaking up and out.

40:41educating people on the reality of the impact that it can have and also the scale that probably exists right in front of you without even seeing it and also letting people know that there is access to care out there you know early pregnancy units really interesting there is medication that is available it's not currently available via the nhs so there are different routes um but i think also if people are going through that to know that they may not necessarily want to share it for for reasons that we discussed earlier for fear of possibly being judged um and so i think you've done an incredibly brave thing to come on here today and share that and i i'm confident that you'll leave a lasting impact with uh with this episode jess so So thank you so much for the raw honesty and sharing your trauma with other people, because I think it will have a massive impact.

41:50So thank you for coming on today. Thank you for having me. Loved having you. And also, given that we work together and we find it hard to find time for coffee anyway, I feel like we've done like the last 10 coffees in the last hour. So thank you so much. Thank you. I really appreciate it. And I know people will be looking forward to this episode. So thank you. Thank you.

42:34zero chaos. Call it compliance or call it compliance. Get it? Join the 15 ,000 companies using Vanta to prove trust. Go to Vanta.com slash com.