The Pitch That Changed Everything

0:00Pippa Glucklich: I'm Danny White-Skorn and this is Behind the Title. I'm delighted to be joined by Pippa Glucklich today. Pippa's had an illustrious career, working not only in small agencies but also large agency networks. Unfortunately, Pippa's family received some terrible news over nine years ago. There is a trigger warning to this episode, so please be mindful. I've been quite public about my journey since my husband Michael died nine years ago of suicide. Three days after the funeral, I get on a plane and I was sitting there in this meeting, leading this pitch, going, my life is so, I can't believe I'm here.

0:38I can't, what am I doing? I'm not, I can't be Pippa's CEO anymore because I'm not.

0:44Pippa Glucklich: I've never heard a CEO talk as raw and honest as she did on the podcast today. We look forward to you enjoying this episode.

0:54Pippa Glucklich: kippa hello welcome to behind the title it's having me danny it's amazing to be here amazing to have you i think when i reached out to you a couple of months ago you absolutely kind of hand raised you're happy to get involved i guess for those that won't know you um maybe a bit of introduction to you a bit about your background and specifically why it was important for you to come on behind the title and share your kind of experience. I've been in media for 35 years, just gone. You can say it. It doesn't, it's not a measure of. This is when you say, no, not possible. No way, Pippa, it's not possible.

1:36Pippa Glucklich: You don't look old enough. Okay, well. We can edit that one. Well said. But, and have always been, you know, quite driven, always had a huge imposter syndrome. But people don't think I do. People think I'm uber confident. And I've carried on in that way, looking externally uber confident and then but not really feeling it. and that some of that stuff might come up as we chat but then nine years ago in September 2016 my husband of 21 years partner of 27 years um died by suicide on the more September the 16th 2016 uh and you know even though nine years on I know it happened and I know unfortunately it's my story and my kid's story, the shock is indescribable and always will blow me away that that has happened in my life to him, to us.

2:40So that was like having a bomb go off in my life. um and but to begin with I just did that thing of you know carrying on and then uh had I don't know if it's what you'd call a breakdown uh but as close as I could imagine I would ever come and had never in you know thought I needed therapy never thought I had any mental health challenges you know beyond sort of your you know your average but went very quickly into a real deep downward spiral and I guess that it was a huge wake-up cause maybe that's not the right expression but it's given me a perspective what happened with him what's happened since It's given me a completely different perspective on life, on work, on how I spend my time, on who I spend it with.

3:47And it's not a perspective. I'm glad I've got the perspective. I wish I'd got it in a different way. But it has hugely informed who I am now, I think. Possibly who I always was, actually. but I just covered it up with work and career and ambition and drive and title and all of those

4:10Pippa Glucklich: kind of things which seemingly seemed important I mean by the very nature of again your last word their title and the preface to that around your husband unfortunately taking his own life I mean that that personifies what this is about um I I think as you were just talking there I thought over all the episodes to just come straight out with that I don't know many senior leaders that would share that anyone that knows me knows I'm a very open person I'm heart on sleeve I tell it how it is which doesn't always go down brilliantly well but that's just and I'm sometimes I've had to temper that, but I just, I'm, say it how it is, I think it's just a much better way of getting stuff out there.

5:02And I'd much rather get feedback and be told and learn from it and move on. And so when Michael died that way, he was from a very Catholic family. and there's enormous amounts of stigma around suicide generally in society but in the Catholic Church and I think partly because of the way I am but partly because of that I hugely railed against it and almost wanted everybody to know that that's how he died because I didn't want it swept under the carpet and to be honest with you and I have to be careful what I say but I think a big part of why he ended up doing that was because everything got swept under the carpet and he didn't feel able to talk about stuff because of his stuff that had gone on in the past and I felt almost on his behalf which probably to be honest he would hate but I had to tell people that was what happened because suicide is so complex and I knew nothing about it I knew you You know, I knew one person, a guy, somebody I used to work with, actually.

6:15And that was hugely shocking. But I didn't know him well. It wasn't, you know, he wasn't a close friend or anything.

6:21Pippa Glucklich: I think when I reached out to you and we had a conversation, you talked about addiction being a part of that. How much did you understand about addiction, you know, and certainly as a family member suffering with it versus to what you understand now and how that can possibly impact? So I know a lot more about it now. I hesitate to, you know, I don't really like the label of addict, but I think Michael was. And, you know, I'm wary that a lot of people, he knew a lot of people in the industry. As I said earlier, I'm very honest about it. And the reality was that, you know, he had addiction issues.

7:04in on he was an all or nothing person so it wasn't that he was a drug addict necessarily but he was if he was if he was drinking he was really drinking if he wasn't he you know and I used to think because he would stop drinking for periods of time he once did it for a year and a half and I used to think god I don't know how he does that because I you know I don't drink loads but I I love a glass of wine with dinner, you know, for me, the two. And I used to say to him, why can't you just have a glass of wine over dinner? And that's fine. What glass or two? Enough. When we used to argue about it, when he was in, he used alcohol and drugs as a crutch, I think, to get through.

7:56And I used to say to him, you know, you've got addiction issues. and he would say I'm not an alcoholic because he could he could stop and I used to think oh no he's not an alcoholic because he could literally go right I'm stopping now and of course I now know afterwards that that is classic addict behavior just being able to stop he did it with exercise He was either like going to the gym every day or not. And I think there was always kind of wanting something more. So when he stopped drinking, but then when he went back to it, he went from zero to 100 very quickly. And then there were other things that he wanted to do to, you know, I think kind of take himself away a bit.

8:46I mean, the reality is, you know, a lot of what I'm going to say is my perception of him. And there will be people that might challenge that, particularly in his family. But, you know, I lived with him every day. I saw it. So I'm the person that knew I saw it. And a big part of behind the title was our life on the outside was, you know, doing quite well as a family, two lovely children, nice house, good jobs, all looked good. Good. And the majority of the time it was good, but there was this kind of underlying issue that would rear its head quite often. And I didn't tell anyone about it, really.

9:37You know, when we used to go out, I would be watching. How much is he drinking? Is he going to go? You know, I would be on edge a lot of the time, but nobody would have known that.

9:47Pippa Glucklich: We talk about it certainly in the groups that I go to, you know, one is too many, a thousand is never enough. Yeah. That is, that's just, and. I haven't heard that before. Yeah. It, it plays out in every aspect of my life still, you know, chocolate, shopping, work. Yeah. It's never, it's never enough money, you know. And I think it, unfortunately, I've learned that, you know, my illness is ever present. It's just about how I can spot, you know, the defects of character that lead me to, you know, a place where I then make a decision that takes me down a path I don't want to go. so whether it's you know resentment fear dishonesty you know ego um less than more than you know all that sort of stuff um so so it but but it is complicated um it's a complicated illness and it is an illness yeah i mean as i said i know so much more about it now than i did then And I think it was partly because he was very smart.

11:04I don't think he thought that. But I used to say to him, when he stopped drinking, I'd say to him, you're only dealing with, you're not dealing with the cause, you're dealing with the symptoms of why. you see stopping drinking is then and he would be fine for a period of time but I said you're never dealing with the reason the reason that you drink or take drugs or whatever it is or go to the gym all the time and and I you know truth be told I I don't know what that reason was I don't know whether it something happened I don't think so I think it was just a an internal self-doubt malaise just you know insecurity that and I don't know I you know and it makes me really sad that

11:57Pippa Glucklich: I don't know the answer to that was there a period and it may be prior or it may be post where externally the facade view was pristine put together you know I think you said it before you know the imposter syndrome where people wouldn't spot it but then behind you know all of that or underneath the skin you were self-doubt not in a particularly positive mental space crumbling everything kind of falling around you I it's hard to pinpoint a moment I guess there were lots of moments where we'd be out at things we'd be at work events where he would be you know my plus one and I'd be really wary I'd be thinking you know well what's going to happen is he going to drink too much but I suppose the moment and I don't know if this is going to answer the question as well as as you might like it to but the day that he died the week that he died I was CEO of Starcom I was um we were in the last two for the UK BMW pitch.

13:14Visium had been knocked out and they were the incumbent and had been for years. And it was between us and WPP. And, you know, we thought we were in a good spot. And that week on the Tuesday, I went down to Bracknell, I think is where BMW are. We did the penultimate meeting with the UK team and procurement and so on. And on the Friday, we had to have our final submission in our written submission all our pricing all that kind of stuff and honestly Danny it was the most important thing in my life that week I was so obsessed with it you know distracted not really noticing what was going on at home but I knew stuff was going on at home but I didn't I just didn't really I was cross with him and I was a bit like this is this is so important and And so I just focused on work and felt probably quite unavailable to him, I think.

14:19And then I went into the office on the Friday. I woke up on the Friday morning and he was gone. Didn't know where he'd gone. Thought he'd gone to the gym maybe. Noticed he'd left his phone. Thought that was a bit weird. Thought he'd gone to the gym and then was going into work. He was a teacher. and when I went in and we did the submission and then I came home and he wasn't and then on the Saturday morning the police came but at that moment I had if I should say this really but I just accepted a job at Dentsu to be a MIA CEO of one of their networks literally the night before I'd met with my European boss he'd come over from Paris we'd met at St Pancras had a glass of champagne contract was all signed uh I was president of WACL I'd just taken over as president of WACL I had my my president's drinks on the Monday night and then on the Saturday at court to eight the police knock on the door and what I did for the next two weeks I still you know I was someone was arranging the funeral but all the emails about the BMW pitch were still going back and forth and everybody at work at publicist was amazing but i was going and we had we had a meeting the week after the funeral in munich and which was the final pitch and everybody was all these emails kind of i just carried on as normal as if i'm still ceo of starcom i couldn't

15:54Pippa Glucklich: You still got a job to do. Yeah, I'm just like, because I couldn't conceive that this thing had happened in my life. I just had to, I was like, but you know, this is who I am. And the week after the funeral, I kind of look back now and think, what the fuck was I doing? Well, I know, I think, what the fuck was I doing? But there were all these emails going around going, who's going to go to Munich? And I said, excuse me, this is my pitch. I'm going to Munich. And I feel sorry for all the people at work were probably going, we don't want you to, you know, what the fuck are you doing? But I was so intent on, excuse me, this is who I am.

16:33I am CEO. It's my pitch. I'm going. I'm doing it. Never mind that my world had just, my children's world had just exploded out of the blue. So three days after the funeral, I get on a plane to Munich. I know, mad, mad, totally mad. um everybody's really treading on eggshells i get to munich we do the run through we go into the meeting everybody in the meeting bar a few of the german people but the uk team had flown over because it was we were pitching for the uk um everybody was the same so my team was the same and the only difference was I think two or three German BMWers and everybody knew in that room what happened to me

17:28and we got on with the pitch and I introduced it and there was lots of small talk from it was exactly four weeks from the Bracknell meeting and everyone said oh how was your holiday because it was so, oh, yeah, it was a good holiday. And in the meeting, I can honestly tell you, I had an out-of-body experience where I thought everybody's lives has just completely carried on normal. They've all gone on holiday. Well, you know, how's your son? It was just like real small talk. And I was sitting there in this meeting, leading this pitch, going, my life is so, I can't believe I'm here. I can't, what am I doing?

18:10I'm not I can't be people CEO anymore because I'm not because everything that that was built on is not here anymore and I'd always had this thing as you know I'm at work and I'm a quite different person at work than at home but literally in that moment I realized that my everything was intertwined and everything from how I was able to do my job how I was able to think about what we we were having for supper, what the kids were, all this, our whole life was, my whole life was intertwined with him. And I couldn't be this person that I had showed up in the BMW pitch. And it was, and I literally left the pitch, not in that moment, we did the pitch.

18:58I got back on the plane. I was sitting next to some random man. And I literally, I cried the whole way home. And then when I got home, I was like, I can't do that anymore. I can't go back in and I didn't go back in for about three months and that was the beginning of the so so it was it was an when I look back on it now it was an incredible I'm the title I am the title don't try and take that away from me and in that moment me going I just can't be that person anymore I

19:28Pippa Glucklich: just wasn't um it's funny as I as I speak with other guests sometimes the conversation guide flows in line with what the format is and sometimes it you know I go in different directions it couldn't be more apt the next question which was was there shit that you wish you'd said to yourself or to other people oh my god yeah I wish I'd listened to more because everybody said to me everybody said you can't you you shouldn't go but I think I I in some ways I'm quite glad I went because I didn't want

20:11people to think that something my husband I'm a massive feminist something my husband had done could stop me from being able to do my job so that was a part of it I guess there was a real pride in you know I'm I'm professional this is I'm still going to carry on I'm still gonna this is important for my business for my team it was my it wasn't my pitch only but you know I was leading it and um yeah I mean I I wished I'd said I'm not in a good enough place and I can I can literally pinpoint me myself having this out body experience I can still see the room where I was sitting and thinking I wish I could just say what am I doing here but I I did the keep calm and carry and I don't think anyone in that room would have noticed.

21:04But yeah, I mean, there have been lots of times where I wished I'd said things. People at work didn't know what was going on at home and I didn't want them to know. I think I just did this professional pipper. I said Uber, quite confident, quite polished. Well, I don't know, polished, maybe that's not true. but yeah and uh and since then I've probably almost gone too far the other way I've probably almost overshare and and you know will tell people what's going on which makes a lot of people uncomfortable because that's not how we do things people don't you know but but I'm it was such a the transformation of me realizing that I couldn't be the person I thought I was and And that was a massive part of, I liked to think, I would have told you back then, if someone had said to me, why do you work so hard?

22:09Why do you do such long hours? I would have said, oh, it's for my children, you know, to give them a future. It's for my husband and I. It's, you know, so we can have a nice house and, you know, all those things. And, of course, that was partly true. But I think a big part of it was ego, chasing stuff that is inconsequential in the grand scheme of things, chasing title, money, power, status, all of those things. And after he died, I literally couldn't look in the mirror and I had no idea who I was. I just thought this sort of thing does not happen to me. I'm a problem solver I make things happen for people I sort things out for people how could it be that the person closest to me in the world I just I did not see it coming and there's a lot you read a lot about in suicide people going oh there were signs I swear to God you know I went to sleep the night before thinking about my pitch I had no idea and you know i've i regret that i i i think what were the signs what should i've seen and other friends have said well if you what would you have done would you have locked the front door would you

23:33Pippa Glucklich: have called the men in you know white coats i i think you know there's two parts of that the first you talked about we live in a capitalist society which unfortunately breeds this behavior of money title power status ego and it's hard to remove yourself from that and actually a big part of my career I think I've been focused on that but I'm really fortunate that being part of a 12-step fellowship I get the opportunity to step back in fact that the times that I get to sit in a meeting are the times I get to pause slow down and actually realize that was not needed today you know and um but I've also realized that I don't I don't want anyone to ever feel like the behavior that I exhibited when I was in active alcoholism and active addiction was their responsibility or they were accountable in fact I took you know um regularly I took hostages what do you mean by that I would make decisions and there would be consequences to those decisions or there would be actions that I would follow and it would have much wider consequences to other people and unfortunately that would then bring them into the situation without me even realizing it And I think that hearing you share that just now, and it sounds like you've done, you know, you're grieving or you're still grieving, you know, you've got your acceptance around.

25:18I think that's a really important part because why, to an extent, the responsibility isn't on that individual.

25:25Pippa Glucklich: and I think you know certainly what I've read about this topic sometimes people will latch and and attach themselves to they are responsible yeah and that's and and you know I'm I'm I will always feel responsible there's I've had shitloads of therapy since he died and still do and always will actually um and I'd encourage everybody to have therapy and I never did before even though my mum was a therapist I just was I don't I'm okay well I'm okay and you know like everybody I I think I don't think I wanted to look in that pandora's box I just thought but I didn't think I needed it and yeah I'm just I I will always bear some that and and in my therapist I've had a couple of therapists will say but what could you have done and he had agency and it was but But I just, I still think, I think I should have seen it.

26:30I should have noticed he was struggling more than usual. Or if I hadn't been so obsessed with the pitch, maybe he would have felt more able to go, hey, look, can we talk about it? But then, you know, I'd done loads of pitches like that before. But there were lots of little things that happened in the run-up. lots of tiny little signals and threads and that I can weave together and I've gone over and over and over again in my head and still do um that I just think if I just noticed that or said that differently or not have been so obsessed uh that it might have the what-ifs are constant and that I don't know if I'll ever get away from that to be honest with you sounds like you've brought up two wonderful kids over the last nine years and um are there any um

27:28Pippa Glucklich: are there any kind of triggers around what happened and also what's happening now as you're bringing up the kids that make it really hard either to kind of just keep calm and carry on the job or it sounds like maybe you know you're at a stage in your professional life where it's like maybe there's things that are triggering you now that wouldn't have 10 years ago where you're like I just don't need that anymore there there is a lot of that I have um I have a very high kind of fuck it button now which I never had before I was always a bit of a girly swap quite goody two shoes always did the right thing now I'm much more if you know if something's not right I don't want to do it uh it doesn't come from a good place actually it comes from a a sense of you know I might get run over by a bus tomorrow so why why do stuff I don't want to do why not do stuff of course I check I think I chase um pleasure more I suppose there are things in in the workplace around inappropriate things people say or behaviors and this sort of links to some of the stuff I do outside of work um so I'm chair of time too which is the industry initiative to end sexual harassment and we we do great training all about how to bystander training how to step in and obviously it's based primarily on sexual harassment but it talks to any inappropriate behavior and I think back and this is not necessarily linked to what happened with Michael but I think back to many many opportunities where I didn't step in it was just easier to laugh it off or and that could be about anything about talking about people's mental health or making jokes about the quality of their work and all of those little things that signal to people that maybe I'm not good enough and I'm you know my team of the business that I've just left would very possibly dispute it but I do think there are I think as a leader calling stuff out is really important and and for anybody it is for people to call me out on stuff that isn't okay and I wish I'd done more of that and I wish that it wasn't still the there's a lot of legacy behavior in the world but in also in our industry and I wish there are that's a quite a trigger for me now I'm much more mouthy about going sorry no that's not okay and maybe that comes from everything that's happened in the last nine years but yeah those are those sorts of things and and particularly around the role of women in the workplace that's a big that's quite a big I've always been quite you know on it about stuff like that but people recognizing the differences in how society is set up for men and for women that's just how it is but we've all got a responsibility to pay attention to other people's experiences and and you know whether we're men or women of which i think that there has been i think there have been a lot of advancements we're nowhere near where we need to be i was i was reading about it the other day i think there's you know a massive um sorry word but under-representational misunderstood around um miscarriage you know and you know how do you manage you know that coming back into the workplace has been people would you know what when one of your questions about was there a moment I had five miscarriages before Michael died and before he died that I thought that was the worst thing that ever happened to me and that's I'm not trying to say that is it's not awful to anybody that's had a miscarriage but I don't think people that I work with would have known that I'd had five miscarriages I just was like I'm not very well or even in some instances went straight back into work because I didn't feel able to talk about it so yeah there's so much and it is a lot better I feel at the moment I can't lie it's going backwards obviously because of a lot of stuff that's happening in the US.

32:09And I think it's going backwards for women quite strongly. And I see that in our industry. I see a lot of really amazing, impressive women stepping out of the industry because it just doesn't work for them anymore. And a couple of people said, that's not why I'm doing it at all. I love our industry. I loved EG. I just have done 35 years.

32:34Pippa Glucklich: It's good innings. Yeah, it is a good innings. Although I think I said to you I had lunch with my chair as John Hegarty, Sir John Hegarty, and I had lunch with him last week. And I said, you know, John, 35 years is a good shift. 35 years? I've done 60. You haven't even started. But I've got other stuff that I feel is really fulfilling to me. And as a result of some of the stuff we've talked about, it just is very meaningful so I sit on the board of mind taking over as vice chair mental health in this country is in a really bad state you know there's some of the one in one in five young people have a some kind of mental health challenge uh that's up from one in nine in 2017 so those you know and obviously the pandemic will have had a huge impact on that last year there were 10 000 more referrals to for young people mental health 10 000 more waiting lists are longer I mean the stats are just awful and in some small way for Michael I never I've never run a marathon I've never set up a foundation and I feel quite guilty about that because I'm quite a doer I'm quite a right there's a problem I need to fix it and obviously the the one of the things that's been so hard and is still really hard in the mental health challenges is you can't you can't fix somebody and and I couldn't I thought I could help Michael but the reality was I could I could support him but I couldn't solve it for him only he could solve it for himself.

34:25But one of the things in joining the board of mind, which I did five years ago, was to, that's my way of doing something for people like Michael and families like mine who've been affected by, you know, severe mental health challenges. and so that's kind of why I do that and that feels like important work um and and you know there's who am I I'm a advertising wankersk is my language so there's part of me that goes how can I help but but I do hopefully I make a contribution you say that but I'm in a similar

35:07Pippa Glucklich: place um in the I talked about kind of I need to give away what was freely given to me to kind of keep my sobriety but um I lost uh I lost a parent when I was seven and and I've always thought about how can I do something to help so I I'll always donate in some way shape or form to uh a cancer charity doesn't matter which one um but actually I've never wanted to run a marathon I've always thought in my head I could do that but I'm like I'm not going to do that and recently I was approached um by an organization called grief encounter which helps you know bereaved uh bereaved families and uh to be part of their fundraising board and i thought to myself saying well i'm i'm just a guy in advertising yeah and actually i had a conversation with uh with uh one of the ladies heads up fundraising and and i was sharing some guidance and advice because i'd actually been recommended by someone to them and i was what i was saying i thought was just everyday common knowledge about how you could possibly attract some more donations and they were incredibly grateful they were never thought about that before yeah and so yeah don't underestimate the impact that i think certainly you and and i can have so so as we kind of bring this to to trying to give people something to take away um was there a moment that you had to you know metaphorically or physically stand yourself in front of a mirror and just say enough Pippa probably lots of moments but I think in my darkest period which was quite early on a friend of mine staged an intervention I think I mean I was in a really bad place and it's one of the things actually about if survival is the strongest instinct and most of us would think that we would never take our own lives and obviously as you might expect I've done quite a lot of reading about it and sitting on the board of mind and stuff I know quite a lot about it now not as much as I could ever know And the reality is that for all of us, if the circumstances present themselves, we could all find ourselves in that position.

37:36And when somebody that you know, particularly if it's someone close to you, has made that choice, if that's the right expression, it suddenly becomes much more of an option. and and and for me that I just was this is too hard I can't I just can't do this I don't you know people kept saying to me oh isn't it amazing you've got your sons and I was like I feel awful saying this but if they weren't here I would check out I don't you know I just this is just too hard literally didn't know which way to turn I didn't and and a friend of mine did stage a bit of an intervention and and because she was you know quite worried about me and I think in that moment probably getting a bit upset now thinking about it uh I got kind of carted off to the GP uh who was amazing and then got referred to a psychiatrist and so on um the thing for me I didn't feel I had any hope that was a big thing I thought I can't see a way out of this this is just too hard my life's over everything I thought I was going to be in my future and my children's future is gone and just very gradually I started to this is a huge cliche but it's very true see in the really small things in not the winning the big pitches or getting the big title or getting a pay rise none of those in the really small stuff in nature in gratitude for the small things and I started to do it with my kids uh my youngest particularly was 13 the kids were 13 and 17 when their dad died and um we used to do three things every day and probably before he died it would have been oh I won a pitch or I beat someone at that or you know I don't know we've made more money or the share price went up whatever and it was the smallest things like oh uh wasn't it nice and warm today or the dog we've got this lovely dog digby uh who's 14 now but the dog featured and what really surprised me was his take on it was all the really small things or yeah dinner was nice and for me from being in the absolute depths of despair and genuinely just not wanting to be here those tiny little things and still now I'm a big try and only worry about what you can control and for me like during the pandemic I I slightly pandemic was you know sole parent I'd left Dentsu I didn't have a job but I'd planned it I'd have six a few months off but actually for me it I I had quite a good pandemic if there's such a thing because I was like well I can't do anything and I did loads of volunteering I worked at a food bank I did some stuff for the NHS I joined the board of mind I worked out that my when my happiest time at my work had been had been when I'd been an independent I didn't particularly want to go back into a network at that point which is when I joined EG and it was a big part of it was because I just thought I just focused on the little things that made a difference to my everyday life and it has made me much more realistic, humble, what's in my control.

41:27And so I don't know if that was one moment but it feels like just being really grateful for the things that you can control and the things that are out there that we're all very lucky to have. I still know how incredibly fortunate I am. And I say that to the kids a lot. You know, it's terrible and tragic what happened to Michael and as a result to us. And I wish it was not my story and my kids' story more than anything. I still rail against it being my story, to be honest with you. I still struggle to have come to terms with that. But it is. and so we have to you know I have to go with that and remember that we're still standing and we're still loved and we still see the sun come up every day and those are things that Michael doesn't have

42:22Pippa Glucklich: I'm smiling um because I've got this this warm feeling as you're talking and I'm thinking to myself how lucky the podcast is to have you on today how lucky lucky I am to be here the industry is to have someone like you and how lucky your kids are to have someone like you that has this perspective now they might disagree they might do but um I've been able to kind of sit back and almost watch this interview rather than participate and I told you I talked a lot no but it's beginning but it but it's to hear the story and to hear the the the acceptance to an extent to hear the understanding of you know like a strong understanding of yourself and and how you've evolved and your point there around knowing what made Pippa tick and you know knowing that you didn't want that I think is hugely powerful um and I really my hope is that when people hear this other senior leaders say you know what I want to share what's going on or what's happened for me one of the things in in in recently announcing that I'm leaving my full-time job is some I've had mixed reactions like people some people are like why would you do that why would you not be CEO and what about the money and what about and and sometimes I think am I mad there are I think a lot of people that would be too scared to kind of step off the conveyor belt and and do you know what I may in six months time go god it was a huge mistake I don't think I will but isn't that the point right is that people immediately jump to well that's it now so definitive I'm out Whereas actually you can create a whole career over here and still be successful.

44:22Pippa Glucklich: You can equally come back in three, four, five, six months time and be able to say, well, actually, no, I missed it. You know, I think that's a really important point. As we kind of bring this to a close, there's one question that we ask of every guest, which is the permission slip. if you could give people a permission slip to think feel say do act differently you know what would that be be grateful remember the things that you have not the things you don't have and I don't mean material things I just it's very easy to let day-to-day stuff get on top of you work pressures but the stuff seeing the sun come up a smile on your partner or your child's face nature all of those things that it has been quite transformational for me I used to walk around I think in you know and I still do to an extent but on my phone thinking about work all the time

45:33and that stuff doesn't matter and there's so much joy to be had out there. The other thing, and I love travel and I have my friends call me Judith Chalmers because I love going on holiday. But travel has been, and I make no apology for it, it's been a huge part of therapy for me because the world is an amazing place. The people, the cultures, the differences, the smells, the vibes, the scenery. And when I go to different places, and that could be coming here today to this part of London or to going to a completely different country, it reminds me how amazing the world is. And for a long time after Michael died, I just didn't see any of that.

46:28I didn't want to acknowledge because the world felt like the most hostile, awful place that I just didn't want to be a part of. And so because I went to such a dark place, I think I see things in a slightly childlike way actually now. I go, oh, isn't that amazing? So just always hanging on to there's so much in the world to celebrate be grateful for and for me that has been a big quite transformational way of thinking and and not that I didn't before but I never acknowledged it before I just took stuff for granted

47:09Pippa Glucklich: Pippa that was that was moving it was inspiring it was it was honest it was raw um thank you for coming on and sharing that with us thank you for asking me and for having me it's been a pleasure I can't wait for people to hear this because I at the very least know that you're going to get quite a few people championing you from the sidelines about how brave you were to share this but also I'm pretty sure you'll help one person and my mo with this podcast is if I can help one single person at the point ahead of or before intervention on any matter yeah it doesn't have to be you know as as we're talking about today but anything then it's a job well done um thank you once again for coming on thank you for having me it's been a pleasure and keep doing what you're doing i think it's fantastic