What Happens When Life Rewrites the Plan

0:00Your call has been forwarded to an automatic voice message system. A missed call doesn't feel like anything. No red flag, no notifications screaming at you. It just disappears into your call log. And nine times out of 10, that was someone ready to hand you money. That's why today's episode is brought to you by Quo, spelled Q-U-O, the business phone system built so you never miss a call. Here's what I like about it. All your calls, texts, and voicemails live in one place. So anyone on your team can pick up a conversation, see the full history, and respond fast. No more, wait, who talked to this customer last?

0:36And if you're worried about after-hours leads slipping through, Quo's optional built-in AI agent can answer questions and even book appointments while your team's offline. It's the number one rated business phone system on G2, and over 90 ,000 businesses already trust it to stay reachable. Money is on the line. Always say hello with Quo. Try Quo for free. Plus, get 20 % off your first six months when you go to quo.com slash tech. That's q u o.com slash tech.

1:11I'm delighted to be joined by Neil Tookie. So great to have you here. When we were put in touch by mutual contact, I didn't really know much about your story and also what an industry stalwart you are. So to have you on here today is hugely exciting but maybe if you can just start with a bit of an introduction to you your background and your career but also why it was important to come on to behind the title yeah um thanks danny um do a little dedication to that mutual contact um when they watch that they'll know so my name's neil tuki and for those that don't know me i am i am currently a consultant I built a business called TMT 4.0 over the last year now, post a redundancy from WPP.

2:07I've spent many years there, just over 13 years within the group, and then previously worked at Publicis for P &G. So I've had a good 20 years in the agency world, and one of the main reasons, I guess, why we wanted to get on this podcast and speak to you today, Danny, is to talk about that that chapter and also to talk about men's health and how I processed getting through testicular cancer and sending a message really out to the to the gents that are listening and to you know create some awareness check your balls and talk about that journey is the first time you've ever spoken publicly I have yeah this I've done a couple of things for Movember softly on the socials but publicly sharing the story this would be the first time how's it feel a little bit nerve-wracking yeah but i'm at a chapter in my life where i want to create a bit more awareness share my experience and hopefully you know if it helps one person then we're on to a winner i think i think that for me is the absolute key to this and we were speaking just before you know when i started the podcast i don't think i ever really had an expectation as to what success looked like but I knew that if it could help one person that's all that really matters if one person feels seen recognized can identify and gives them confidence to make a change or seek support then I think that's job done you know for me having people like you on that can share you know quite openly about you know i i guess uh an illness that affects i think we talked before like one one in one in two hundred one in 250 people whilst that may not seem like high probabilities actually you think about it if you're working in a company completely of a couple of thousand people there's probably more likely than one person that you have been exposed to that will have experienced it true and in my time in the agency world i've probably had quite a few people contact me off record about um you know symptoms or what to do next unfortunately a few people have had it but they've got through it um and you know it's great to help them out on that on their journey i us wow um is there or was there a moment you know if we if we if we think back over the last 20 25 years of your career was there a moment in which on the on the outside everything golden you know it looked great but on the inside you were crumbling now i i appreciate that maybe when you got diagnosed there may have been a work experience but I'd love to just understand a bit more about that and during that time I mean there's been a few moments up and down across the 20 years but that that moment of getting over I hate to use the word trauma because the reality was I was very lucky I caught it early I dealt with it I had the operation and I was back in work within a week.

5:29Probably not the smartest idea. I mean, it was December time, 2013, so I was at the buoyant part of my career at Maxis. Brilliant agency, top people, and at that age, I was just about to turn 31, so I missed my birthday, and I always remember that time because I was like, I skipped a year. I was like, I love celebrating birthdays and Christmas. It's the best time of the year. especially a fun time of year in the industry right um and i do remember that moment wisely because it was the feeling of it is like having a really bad appendix operation um i didn't really have time to process my thoughts i'm quite a i was proud of my attendance record i was a proud to be part of in the agency a lot i was proud to create the value that i did within the agency so I didn't want that time out I just wanted to get on with it and I didn't really process completely what happened to me because the reality was I was in a transition of finding out whether I needed to have chemo blood checks, scans every month and not a lot of people knew that I was having that, I was just getting on with work, I went to the Christmas party that year and I shouldn't have gone to be honest I was walking around I wasn't myself because it was the uncertainty of what's next I've had quite a big tumour removed and that journey was very it was a time where I was just in doubt because it's a big shock you're getting told you've got cancer but what if it comes back or what if it's in your blood or what if it's spread so you know big shout out to Maloney he was my boss at the time he looked after me big arm around the shoulder that's the sort of guy he is I had a big team around me but the reality is you've got to deal with that sort of stuff on your own in your own mind and I probably didn't really understand the impact that it would have on a young man like me at the time I mean 30s you know I guess it's I don't want to say it's your prime but you know you you hit 30 and you feel a sense of maybe newfound responsibility yeah you know you're possibly growing more into adulthood so I can imagine that to kind of be stopped in your tracks is is quite it's quite tough and you know we don't talk enough about the big c yeah or in this case the little c yeah um you know was there um uh was there an immediate emotional impact to you and more importantly did did it did it affect your body or did you feel like it affected your identity you know being able to have the confidence either to speak up in a room or maybe uh i don't know if you were in a relationship at the time yeah just explain a bit a bit about that i mean confidence is a good good point to talk about because i'm i like to think i'm a very confident person and people that know me see me that before that time there was nothing that could stop me I was career driven I love to explore I love to see new places but at that time I was like couldn't really present couldn't speak up for myself did have an impact on my relationship and so I had to really work on myself and I really had to get back and it took a long time to be honest to get to where I wanted to get to probably now and hence why I wanted to come on because we're talking 12 years later now in a better place, a lot more confident.

9:16I could never do something like this post that. But you never really realize it. That mentality of just get on with it, just move on. Wasn't a lot of support, to be honest, within the workplace from a resource point of view. I leaned on people, foundations like Movember, which I'll give a big shout out today because they are a great support unit for men's health and for the two major cancers that they represent in testicular and prostate. Guy's Hospital, fantastic foundation that were there, offered therapy, and again, for a guy like me, I don't need therapy. We don't do therapy, not in my family.

10:00But to be honest, I've got a great therapist now. I still see her once every few months. and she's fantastic. So the old me would have been like, no, that's silly, you don't do all that stuff, you don't talk about your feelings, you don't have to express that. But actually, it has helped my confidence.

10:23And I guess within the bounds of what's appropriate, how did you discover that you had testicular cancer? It's a really good question because actually, again, from an awareness point of view, guys will ignore stuff um and i am that classic that's all right it's just a lump it's just a it's a stone it felt like a stone in my bollock and my partner at the time was like well don't ignore it go to the gp silly question when you say a stone how big did it feel well if the exact measurement was a four and a half tumor four and a half inch tumor wow um heavy feeling um and reality is we don't really go to the GP unless there's pain or something wrong physically or you can see something but it's probably the most stupid thing you can do because if we have to listen to our bodies we have to really take the time out of work fast-paced industry to go and see GP now cancer is again you can ignore it even post GP my GP wasn't great now like you can go to the hospital and get checkup if you want so even in that week I remember shall I bother I'm quite busy it's Christmas it's December I don't want to miss out again and but did you know my partner at the time was very like you're going to the GP you're going to the hospital you need to get an ultrasound and I do remember this point when I got the ultrasound I think I knew then that something was bad and then you always know when you get a call from a doctor and you need to come in and see see me ASAP was a bit of a oh shit and my life just shut down and in that space um you know and my dad was there my mum was there I had a good family foundation that got me through that time but from that point it was you got the news you got cancer operation within a week so two questions then first one was it was it gradual did you notice it over time or was it just suddenly you uh i think i did i think i did for a couple of months which again but just just like overlooked it um you know i didn't have any bad symptoms like you can get symptoms where your pissing has had an impact or you notice purple swelling or a difference of colour but it was just a heavy stone feeling that I classify it as and again sometimes it can be a cyst and 9 times out of 10 and I was praying it was a cyst at the time but I was one of the lucky ones in reality I got it caught very quick It didn't spread into my bloods.

13:15And then I just had monthly checkups for two to three years. Still? No, not still. You get to the five-year point and then you stop. You're amongst everyone else out there in the world. In the sense of cancer-free, it was that type of cancer that you get the clearance, if you like.

13:37So when you received the diagnosis, when you got the call to come in, yeah and i think this is this is twofold what what were you thinking number one i was thinking i've got cancer yeah but you've got cancer so what what 100 and it's the next stage because actually the operation i've never actually broke a bone i've never had any operations in my life that's one thing you got to do you're overnight you're on your own you've just had surgery and like i say it was like a really bad appendix from what I've been told. And where did your head take you though? My head took me was, has it spread? Am I going to die?

14:19Yeah, that's the reality. At the time, did you have children? No. And that did, to be honest, that did have an impact in me thinking, can I have children? You know, a stat for you is, reality is it has no impact. Because as long as you've got enough swimmers, shall we say, and your other one, you're all good. which I'm thankful that I did but it did cross my mind I'm in a relationship can I have kids in the future I'm a young 30 year old, that's what I want I want a family but yeah so that did cross my mind but it was very much the point of do I need to now have chemo and I only found out that I didn't need chemo randomly on Christmas Eve that year I had the option and again a bit of a shout out to my Dr.

15:09Simon Chowdhury, an expert in his field, said I could, I had the choice, I made the choice not to have chemo. So I could have had chemo just in case because of the size of the cancer that it was, but the operation was very successful. So I opted out. He said I had an 80 % chance of survival and we will check you every month, do moderate scans, CAT scans, CT scans. And I had to do all that stuff whilst working. So the reality is in that time, no one knows that you're doing these things and you're getting these checks. And it's something that maybe companies need to be a bit more aware of. Like I said, I had a solid team, a solid agency that I worked for, one of the best.

15:54So it felt easy. I just got on with it. But mentally, I did not know what impact it had. Do you still, well, as I say, look over your shoulder, are you still worried? Do you still think about it? Do you still have fear that it might come back? Or might manifest itself in another way? Yeah, manifest in another way. Because unfortunately there is a hell of a lot of different cancers out there. And a hell of a lot of different stats. It has changed my life. I probably am fitter, healthier. I smoked at the time. I would never promote smoking now. because even at that time, they said that would worsen your chances for any type of cancer coming back.

16:39So when I see youngsters smoking, vaping, it blows my mind. That was a silly young me in my 20s that I was a social smoker amongst media. That's what we did back then, but now I wouldn't touch a fag with a barge pile. I reckon I'm 15 months now, again, without a cigarette. Never really got on with vaping, but I think the world is changing. I think you've got a more health conscious

17:11cohort of younger people in the industry. Some will defer to having a vape and some will defer to heading off to One Rebel and getting their nails done. But in the same breath, I think I came across three people that did the exact same thing that you did. the other week, which is how many marathons have we completed now? Two. Two marathons. Just about. So we've got the medal in. We've got the medal. Just to really wind up a couple of people that want to doubt the doubters. Which is super special. I've never actually seen it before. um is is do you think the completing challenges like that is part of the the mental side of it 100 more than the physical yeah i mean because the marathon any marathon's hard for any individual whether you're the fastest man in the world or someone that's coming last it's a mind game it's the psychology of it is you need to get through the hurdle you need to and you need to train like anything, you can train hard, you can train softly that one there I only got 7 weeks I got a place very late in the day through a couple of charities so, but for me running is therapy it's a time where you just zone out put your music on and just you're one with yourself if you're not whereas bigger challenges like half marathons marathons being part of a great occasion to be honest yeah let's let's shift it up a gear so you talked about redundancy and i think it is incredibly tough for a lot of people at the moment yeah and i don't just mean in our industry i think in all industries there's lots of change um for lots of reasons uh be that you know geopolitical technology advancements and we're not going to get into the world of of ai today because there are plenty of podcasts that can do that better but um i'd love to understand you know when you went through that process or when you were faced with it was there shit that you wish you said to the people at the time or you know was there things that you feel like you left unsaid and this isn't about the individuals yeah and it's not necessarily about the company i just want to understand because we want people to know that it's not about creating friction or tension but it is about knowing how people have experienced it and what they feel that possibly they could have done differently yeah it's a really good question um the reality is it does bring up a lot of emotions because you're given a lot of years you know it comes back into the other story of my cancer journey and and i gave you know i was in within a week in an audit presenting you know you've given a lot of passion you're given a lot of time and um you know part of my wpp journey was across maxis essence essence mediacon three different companies hell of a lot of different clients in that time, new people, new teams.

20:36So you're giving your all. And I'm that sort of guy that was always like, right, I'm an account manager, I'm an account director, I'm a chat. Your call has been forwarded to an automatic voice message system. A missed call doesn't feel like anything. No red flag, no notifications screaming at you. It just disappears into your call log. And nine times out of 10, that was someone ready to hand you money. That's why today's episode is brought to you by Quo, spelled Q-U-O, the business phone system built so you never miss a call. Here's what I like about it. All your calls, texts, and voicemails live in one place, so anyone on your team can pick up a conversation, see the full history, and respond fast.

21:19No more, wait, who talked to this customer last? And if you're worried about after-hours leads slipping through, Quo's optional built-in AI agent can answer questions and even book appointments while your team's offline. It's the number one rated business phone system on G2 and over 90 ,000 businesses already trust it to stay reachable. Money is on the line. Always say hello with Quo. Try Quo for free. Plus get 20 % off your first six months when you go to Quo.com slash tech. That's Q-U-O dot com slash tech. 75 % of women who seek menopause care, don't receive it. The lying awake at 3 a.m. wondering what's happening to your body ends now.

21:58Midi is virtual care built for women in perimenopause and menopause with clinicians who specialize in women's health. Plus, it's covered by most major insurances. Getting started is easy. You can book your first visit with a clinician right away. Midlife needs Midi. Visit joinmidi.com to book your first visit today. That's joinmidi.com. Insurance coverage varies. Check with your plan for coverage. panel lead, I'm a commercial director. I was on that journey of what's next, what's next. And in that period at the end of 24, I was like, right, I want to be an SVP. That's the next step for me. I need to get to that point.

22:35Not we've lost a load of business. You're getting made redundant because we're going to go through a shift in the business. And that's me being honest. Like, you know, I didn't expect it. I didn't want it. But having said that, and I now look at my life, year and a half down the line, probably the best thing that could have happened to me because the reality is when we are working for a huge corporation we get comfortable, we get complacent we sometimes need to be challenged in different ways and sometimes that's not in your control so there is a lot of at the time I could have been a lot angry but I'm a realist as well when you lose half a billion pounds worth of business you're not going to have the same business in the next year or two years or three years and people have to come to terms with that they can drag their heels or they can try and set foundations up in the right way and the trader in me, the negotiator in me went for a period of negotiating the best term that I could get to and you have to be political, you have to be smart, you have to box smart in those stages because you can't shout and scream you can look at different ways and I think companies, to be honest, and we talk about, you know, there was a huge shift in a fair few businesses.

23:55They need to be smarter in how they deal with people. They need to be a lot more, talk about, treat every individual in their own right rather than box you into a group of people and just say, right, you lot are leaving, you lot are staying. And was it like that for you? It definitely was like that. Did you have a one-on-one conversation? And it was dealt with very badly and I won't, you know, like you say, name drop, but it was not dealt in the right way and I hope businesses can take something from this to really look at how they organise things they need to dedicate teams to deal with people's emotions and time rather than outsource it they need to look at different options and if I'm being honest, paying out loads of people, loads of money doesn't make sense to me like retrain them, repurpose them, find different ways you could even be dynamic to offer them different roles in the sense of you don't need to do five days why don't we pro-riter this down to two, three, four give you more flexibility, do other jobs as long as there's non-competes companies need to be a lot more smarter in that sense otherwise they're just going to be shedding out loads of severance pays and I know that it sits somewhere else on the P &L having worked in commercials but if you gave other people different opportunities and it could be in completely different fields and send them on a different career path.

25:18You know, I'm not a social media expert. I'm pretty sure with tangible skills I can learn how to buy social if I needed to or a programmatic expert. So in that sense, I think companies aren't smart enough to repurpose people or give them opportunities or retrain them in different ways rather than put them in a box and say, right, we need to cut the numbers down. That's the reality of it. and once I mean how long did it take for the I guess the the impact to wear off and and what did you what did you learn once the shock had gone I mean we had a three-month period where I stayed on and finished a year from getting told to my options to then having a three-month calling off period if you like where I couldn't work for anyone else but I wanted to take that time personally to step back and I'm glad I did because at that point to be honest I didn't know if I would come back into the industry I thought am I done with this and just given my all and this is how I'm getting treated and there's media going down that direction and so I say now I've always wanted to do is set up a passion project and set up a garden business and get my fingers dirty if you like try and bring a new skill have something tangible to hand down to my boy one day if he wanted to go down that route or run it I'm not going to create a media business anytime soon and but I can certainly add a lot of value and I came to that realization of even though I'm creating something outside of media I've given a hell of a lot of time to media and I still can give a lot of value to a lot of companies and I was fortunate and lucky enough to land two gigs within a month one at Media Lab the independent agency of the year who is great to be part of those guys and it reminds me a lot of my Maxis days and the type of agency that they are and NVIDIA working with two good friends in JT and Elliot that have actually doing something purposely good for the online video and CTV market and so it's good to actually feel like you're adding value to businesses that a need it and b we're doing some good in in the market um so it's flip it flip its hat and you sort of fall in love with the game a little bit again yeah whereas at the time i'm like i'm never gonna do this i mean when we first met um and we were talking um i think i even said it and i've said it in every time we've spoken i'm i'm utterly in awe of you and people like you that can be faced with such a challenge but be able to rebuild and not just rebuild in the industry and rebuild around a lifestyle that you've built but also create an additional um or new career path in as you said getting kind of is it green thumb yeah green fingers um it's amazing what what was the um what helped you rebuild like was it the people was it the purpose was it routine or was there something else like because i assume that after that calling off period or during that calling off period and then after it there's a lot of soul searching but then having to take action like what helped motivate or drive that for you Yeah, I mean, it's a good point because, like you say, you can sort of have self-pity.

28:58You can sort of go, why me? You can actually get a bit overwhelmed with LinkedIn and just go, God, there's so much happening in the market. There's so many people looking for jobs. There's, do I want to go for jobs? I mean, I've had a couple of interviews, don't get me wrong. I'm in that mindset of never say never. So will consultancy be my way in with the industry for the next 20 years? Who knows? I'm loving it now, it's working for me now but you've just got to take action into your own hands that calling off period was a good time I'm lucky that we talk about the confidence building and everything I've got a good partner in Holly Savage in the industry you need good people around you, you need good family they build you confidence, they encourage you I've got a great network of people that encourage me and give me time, good mentors in the industry still, even my old boss, Carps, good mentors to be around.

30:00And you realize that that's the time that you've spent in the last 20 years in your industry. You've built a solid network, so use it. And I make sure that people that are probably going through it now, they have to lean into their network. People always want to give time, or they should give time. And it's also a message out to the younger crop coming through, like relationships is the foundation of this industry. I know there's a lot of tech and there's a lot of movement in the industry happening. But, you know, grab a coffee, have a meeting with people. You know, it doesn't take a lot. I was always told by an old boss once, which is make sure you don't kick people on the way up because you'll get booted a lot harder on the way back down.

30:44Solid. and I really do you know certainly with this podcast or any aspect of my life try to give back some of the some of the freedom and peace that I've worked hard for but been given through my sobriety journey because I know that I can't keep that if I don't help other people because part of the problem is you can get lost in your head yeah and often when you get lost in your head that's when you start to forget about how impactful it can be just to open the door for someone or have a coffee or make a connection and so a big part of this podcast is is about that I think it's helping people that come on this pod to share their story, which will in turn encourage others to pass on something good to someone else.

31:44So it's lovely to hear that story of kind of rebuilding and a positive element on it. because there is a lot of content that I read on LinkedIn that's quite negative. Yeah. Around, well, actually, you know what? I do see, I think we spoke about this the other week. I do see the atypical post when unfortunately someone has been let go, which is super positive. You know, after X amount of years, it's time for me to move on. I've had a great time. Everything's amazing. I'm going to take some time off, but I'm going to come back in a few months. And they all say the same thing. Yeah. but I don't believe that's the reality no and that's why the platform LinkedIn it's got it's good and bad right you can share some positive stories you can try and flip it politically if you want to or you'd be a bit more raw and emotion I think people see that from some of the posts that I do you know I'm just say it how I see it and hopefully that can land with certain people yeah so we've covered off two quite impactful moments in your career in your life are there triggers both in a personal or professional sense that kind of get you activated in a kind of a a tough way you know whether it's someone saying something or whether you see something or if you experience something how how do those triggers manifest themselves today yes i mean it's good really good question it's you know it's you know we go into this world of agile working we've been there since 2020 um i was always nine to five give my all even cancer's not gonna get in my way you know when and when you're getting people going oh i don't really want to work today i work from home or I'm just you know I haven't got that ability to be proactive be multi like learn all the different channels that you know that we're allowed to that we're given in this industry does trigger me because you know everyone's got a great opportunity working at these clients agencies sell side this industry is a brilliant one to be in so when people aren't giving their and taking it for granted, shall we say, a little bit, it does trigger me because my mindset is work hard, play hard.

34:17And when you go through changes, and also, to be honest, I say this, but then you never know what's going on in people's lives, right? They might have family issues, they might have excuses, confidence issues, and it's holding them back. So it's on businesses to find out and how they can support those people and make them better people within the industry. But those, to the trigger point, you can grind me at times without even knowing how it's actually impacting that individual. And do you get triggered when you hear people talk about cancer, when you hear people talk about redundancy? Yeah, I mean, cancer's a funny one.

34:59We had Mel on the podcast, didn't we? I mean, she's a great girl, a fellow Palace fan. European Cup final, not long. hopefully Mel will join me out in Leipzig but you know her story is fantastic and how she's come over it and you know big shout out to her because it is hard it's a journey that you have to go on and you didn't think you weren't in your road map so businesses, companies need to be aware that if you're going through something like that you need to really be hands on how you're going to support them during, post and pre to be honest because it's something that you you know you're out of your comfort zone you don't know how to handle it you can get all the advice from therapists doctors but you as an individual have to have to take it on and it's not always going to be you know easy yeah we um i'm really fortunate uh that well i think all industries especially ours is really fortunate so within publicist um our tour our chairman and ceo he was diagnosed a couple of years ago um with throat cancer and i think that lived experience

36:21presented to him a challenge that was facing the workplace which is how do you support people when they're going through such a tough time with something like cancer and so he launched working with cancer which is a global initiative which is supported i'm going to get the numbers wrong here but i think by over 2 000 businesses globally and working with cancer essentially provides support in many different ways but the most impactful is job security so it's effectively you know you have your job at a minimum of one year fully paid salary and you can go on leave and get yourself better lots of therapy medical support not just for you but for family members and and I guess a phase instructed approach as to how someone would come back to work and it's amazing that someone so impactful like that recognized and ultimately it's the reason one of the big reasons i'm still a publicist yeah not necessarily because i'm experiencing it right whilst i've had family members it gives me a sense of ease and comfort but it also makes me feel like in all of the bravado out there in the industry and everything that we see and the race to win as much as possible for one person to create an initiative like that that's been rolled out in over 2 ,000 businesses and probably, you know, more and counting.

38:00Your call has been forwarded to an automatic voice message system. A missed call doesn't feel like anything. No red flag, no notifications screaming at you. it just disappears into your call log. And nine times out of 10, that was someone ready to hand you money. That's why today's episode is brought to you by Quo, spelled Q-U-O, the business phone system built so you never miss a call. Here's what I like about it. All your calls, texts, and voicemails live in one place, so anyone on your team can pick up a conversation, see the full history, and respond fast. No more, wait, who talked to this customer last?

38:35And if you're worried about after-hours leads slipping through, Quo's optional built-in AI agent can answer questions and even book appointments while your team's offline. It's the number one rated business phone system on G2, and over 90 ,000 businesses already trust it to stay reachable. Money is on the line. Always say hello with Quo. Try Quo for free. Plus get 20 % off your first six months when you go to quo.com slash tech. That's Q-U-O dot com slash tech.

39:08it's just it's phenomenal well he's using his experience and he's that's real leadership he's leadership it's it's the platform that he's got and good on him to you know present that and put that out to the whole network because people will benefit from it yeah massively and hopefully other companies you know take similar i think bauer were part of it so so when I spoke to Mel she was explaining how she was aware but I think that we are in a different era now and things have evolved and people recognise that it is about building legacies someone said to me recently what legacy do you want to leave and I said well certainly not that I'm just an account man a cracking podcast really it's yeah i want to leave a mark on the industry where someone can say you know what actually danny did a great job of helping to normalize taboo subjects in the workplace bringing people in that have held senior roles and showcasing that just because you're at the top doesn't mean you're immune to everyday you know life challenges and some of these very difficult you know areas that we cover off on the podcast yeah i mean there's so many different cancers and so many different stats that you know there'll be a lot of people out in our industry that we just won't know that have gone through it or had it and you know and potentially will get it in certain different forms so it's it's about you know being being learning on how to deal with it and finding ways to utilise your network to support you around that.

41:02Was there a single bit of feedback or a moment or realisation across the last 20 years that has changed how you saw yourself forever? It sounds like it might have been redundancy. I mean, I won't let redundancy be the... Not define you? No, no, definitely not because... it's obviously going to take me to the next chapter of my career which is good and I'm loving it like I say at the moment but the cancer has definitely changed how I've been over that course of the 10-12 years now that has moulded me probably to do a lot more charity work a lot more self development than I probably did before I was indestructible in my 20s I thought I could take on the world, nothing would beat me and when we talk about smoking and vapes and everything, we all think we're invincible until life shock happens and then you have to have that realisation of life is important I had to sit in Guy's Hospital for 3 years seeing very ill people and it was overwhelming but actually I'm a lucky boy I didn't have to go through chemo I didn't have to go through all that stuff so you use that to your own power and your own strength and you have a certain appreciation of life.

42:28I've got a boy, I've got a seven-year-old boy, Tommy T, and he's the joy of my life. He gives me purpose. He's our little miracle baby with my ex-partner because he was IVF and not that the cancer had an impact on that, but these big impactful moments mold the people that we are and sometimes people cover that and you won't see that in a work environment but it's certainly the challenge of taking on the journey of beating cancer is 100 times harder than sorry we don't see you here working for this business for the next 1, 2, 5, 10 years don't let redundancy make you the person that you are you use the time and headspace to then take you to the next work chapter it's like any book isn't it it's everything's got a start middle and an end um and it's what's next for you it's a good question where are you you start the middle i think i'm at i like to think that my 40s are going to be my twilight my my my sort of you know prime years we talk about 30s maybe be in your prime years maybe the 40s and maybe the 50s who knows um like i say never say never um maybe i was a bit too loyal you know we can all get into that comfortable zone of working for companies and thinking this is the best thing since sliced bread we have great teams we have great people around you if i go and work for another 10 companies in the next 20 30 years so be it i might be a media lab and video for the next 10 20 years who knows um but you know just look at it as an exciting journey don't don't dwell on it okay well let's let's bring it to a close well firstly i mean if you were nervous before i don't know why because it was just a chat and you know i think you've shared some absolute nuggets today um that i think will be hugely impactful on two very important and serious topics um um so we like to we like to end the podcast with a permission slip and the permission slip is about something you want to say to people um you know permission to kind of feel say or stop doing today so if someone's hit a rock bottom after an illness or a job loss you know what permission do you give them?

45:01Very big isn't it that one look after yourself life is short we all like I said we all think we're invincible but don't take it for granted make sure you invest in yourself your time, your family, your friends whilst also being career driven it's fine to want to get to the next stage want to be the next partner, want to be the next role and we'll be in a workplace but this is why we do I run set up run clubs, we even do one at Publicis on Mondays you need that time out of work to be your best self so give yourself that time go for a coffee, go for a walk do the fitness, do the Paris Bootcamp whatever gives you that tick be stupid and sign up for a marathon and try and do it in 7 weeks and pull the hamstrings.

46:00But if you don't test yourself, you're never going to know. So, you know, test yourself. Create a brand. Have a side hustle. Be a gardener if you want to be. Never say never. There's quite a lot in there. Loads. On the middle. Always forward. Forward always. What's that? I saw it on Instagram. I just thought, I'm not going to write my poor time of nearly five and a half hours. I'm going to put that on there. Amazing. Neil honestly it's been a pleasure having you and you know what I feel like I found you know a good friend for many years to come it's been great to have you some amazing advice in there amazing to hear your story I'll finish as we started in ode to the person that

46:51introduced us but thanks for coming on we wish you the best and appreciate your time cheers mate thank you great thanks mate smooth that was great I thought it was cool I thought it was perfect

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