Why “Imposter Syndrome” Might Not Exist at All

0:00When everything is moving all at once, your workforce, your tech stack, your business, you don't need more tools. You need one solution. That's why Paylocity built a single platform to connect HR, finance, and IT with AI-driven insights and automated workflows that simplify the complex and power what's next. Because when everything comes together in one place, growth comes easy. Experience one place for all your HCM needs. Start now at paylocity.com slash one. I'm Danny White-Scorn and this is Behind the Title, where leaders show up differently. Today, Emma Bain, Chief Operating Officer at TLC Worldwide, brings us a very important subject that I'm confident most will identify with, the fear of public speaking.

0:45That has been probably the biggest challenge that I faced in my career because I wouldn't call it a fear, I would actually call it a phobia. There's something in me that like, if all eyes are on me, I just get a very physical sensation. Sometimes I will literally stop like I'll be at our leadership conference big long table presenting something really important and sometimes I'll stop and I'll be like I'm really nervous and that immediately helps to dissipate it. Emma talked to us about the steps she took as she grew in responsibility and seniority and overcame this all whilst going through challenges around identity fertility and so much more.

1:21What a powerful episode with real honesty and openness from Emma.

1:29Emma it's so lovely to have you here thank you for joining um obviously we have a uh I guess a personal connection yeah yeah a mutual friend outside of work um but if you could maybe just start with a bit of an introduction to just you and I guess why it was important for you to come on behind the title today yeah thank you for asking me to come on it's really great to be here I am the chief operating officer of TLC Worldwide, which is a rewards platform solution that increases sales and drives engagement and loyalty for global brands. When you messaged me, it was quite out of the blue, but I think it was in response to a LinkedIn post that I'd done that was quite personal.

2:14and yeah I was immediately like absolutely yes I think it's been like a big part of my journey to try and bring more authenticity into my professional life and I think anything that shows people that there's a lot going on behind the title behind the scenes is a really good thing and you've been in you've been in your business for quite a while right yeah 20 years a long time just a little bit of time did you join as a grad or yeah so I literally started at 22 it's a really unique experience I know that I'm so proud of it it's given me so much I think probably the most relevant thing for this conversation is how much I've changed in that time you know often stay in one organization through your entire you know career and you know when I think about who I was at 22 and who I am now it's completely different I've gone through so many life changes and stages and I've had to evolve you know along the way that's been quite a journey what's been what's been the highlight?

3:12I think just seeing something from what it was when I joined to what it's become, you know, and, and helping to build the culture of TLC and, you know, it's, it's an amazing company. I don't know how much you know about it. Um, but yeah, I think helping to build a culture that, you know, people feel like they can really connect to. That's been a huge highlight. Global, right? Global by nature. Yeah. 14 offices. Markets. Okay. Yeah. And how many people in the business? About four before 20 at the moment. Yeah. So lots of small offices around the world. And dare I ask, has there been a low light?

3:53Oh God, lots of low lights. I mean, it's been the biggest roller coaster of my life. You know, like we've, you know, from the time I joined to now, there's been a huge amount of up and down and times where, you know we didn't know whether we were going to be able to continue and you know we've had to restructure and rebuild and you know it lots of um yeah stress and you know lots of very difficult decision making and but I've been fortunate enough from quite early on to be part of the the team that has helped to sort of navigate through some of those challenges which has been amazing. Is there any regret that you didn't have anything else you didn't try anything else in your career obviously you've had a successful career and the business has you know I guess grown and gone on to brilliant things but do you do you have any regrets?

4:49I think I did early on I'm sure we'll get to talk about you know that part of my journey definitely not now I think because with the benefit now being able to look back I can just see how much it's given me of course And I'm just really grateful for it. And I think that, yeah, there's so many other things I could have done. And, you know, you, you know, whatever experience you have is the right one for you. And that definitely feels like the case for me. We spoke quite a lot prior to coming on about your, I guess, your moments across your career and your life where you had, uh I may not get this right so correct me if I'm wrong like I guess a bit of a a pause moment around what your identity was who you wanted to stand for your values what you represented definitely um you know was there was there a moment in your life where on the outside polished perfection veneer everything looks great but on the inside feeling less than or perhaps, you know, not particularly good about yourself or even just struggling and crumbling that comes to mind?

6:04Well, I think the way that you just described that is kind of my brand or has been, not in a good way. I think that I've always been someone that's had like a big backstage, I think you call it the backstage pass on the podcast. I've always had a big backstage that no one can access and sometimes I can't even access it so I would say there's like millions of examples where that has been the case but I guess probably the most helpful is to talk about when I realized that that was not a good thing because when I first came into my career I was 22 year old very ambitious I didn't have any female role models within TLC at a senior level to sort of look up to.

6:46And for whatever reason, conditioning, upbringing, who knows, but I had an idea in my mind of what a sort of successful woman in business looked like. And so I was there to replicate that. So I was very serious and, you know, quite zipped up. It didn't show a lot of my personality. I worked really hard. And in my personal life, it was just a very different story. I lost a few family members in my early twenties within quite a short space of time. So there was some grief there. And I think that set me off onto a bit of a spiritual journey or a journey of self-discovery. And, you know, I was learning to meditate and going to silent retreats and going to festivals and, you know, lots of workshops where I was learning about all different ways to sort of really connect with, with yourself and lots of very transformational experiences, but that was all happening on my holidays or on the weekend.

7:41And then on a Monday morning, I'd like literally turn up at work and be this very serious zipped up person. And I think it wasn't conscious at the time, but that had a really big impact on me because, you know, I was two completely different people and I didn't really feel like I could bring myself to work. I didn't feel like that was an option. And it got to the point where I think it just felt unsustainable. Like I just felt like I can't continue this way even though I loved my job and I you know I was really enjoying the journey that I was on I left and I left your current organization I left the current organization I left TLC and I went traveling and I was like okay well I'm just gonna have to do something else I'm gonna have to maybe go and be some sort of creative or work for a charity or you know I can't be this person that I had become in my personal life while still honoring the ambition that I had, you know, in my professional life.

8:38And actually it was while I was away, it dawned on me that my mindset around it had been completely wrong. And that, you know, of course I can be myself and that, you know, perhaps there was a chance that being myself would actually make me a better professional, a better leader, more engaging, more able to connect with people. And so I came back and I started the process of trying to integrate myself. I wouldn't say it was like instant, you know, like I came back and, you know, it was baby steps and it's so much better now. Like I am myself at work and I recognize that I am this sort of hippie and, you know, have all these interests in my personal life, but equally I'm super ambitious.

9:23I love the business that I'm helping to build. And, um, you know, both of those things are true about me and And I can be both of those things, but it's still a work in progress. Would the two personalities ever cross paths? And would you ever be called out by people around you to say, this is not? Yeah, well, in my personal life, people were just like, I can't get my head around the fact that you go to an office every day. And they didn't understand what I do. They still don't. They call me Chandler. No one understands why. So anyone who knows friends will know what that means. I'm trans monster.

9:57Nobody really understands what I do. And in my professional life, if I did ever say, you know, that I went to this retreat or festival, they would just be like, what, you know, what are you talking about? So, yeah, of course, like people on both sides of my life recognize that there was this like big stark difference. I just didn't see that it was possible for it to be any other way. But, you know, I think whenever you ignore a really key part of yourself, you know, there's going to be repercussions. And there were definitely repercussions for me where, you know, it wasn't so conscious. It wasn't like I was, I was sort of openly struggling with this separation, but it definitely had enough of an impact for me to walk away from a career that I loved.

10:43Was there a point in time where you either physically stood in front of a mirror or, you know, metaphorically found yourself saying, Emma, you need to, you need to decide what you want or you need to decide who you are it sounds so cliched but I was on a mountain in India and I had just done a silent retreat and I was sitting there and I was thinking about my life and you know what I wanted to come back and do and as I said I'd been thinking oh I'm gonna have to just find a whole new career for myself and none of it felt right you know because I loved what I was doing. It felt important, you know, to be building something and, you know, being part of TLC and the team around me that I absolutely loved and a lot of who, you know, people still, I still work with.

11:37And so the only answer was no, it's, you've got to find a way to bring yourself. And I think vulnerability has never been like an easy thing for me to show. And it still isn't, it's like an active practice now that I have to, I'm here having this conversation because I know how important it is, but it's not like it comes naturally to me. The element of vulnerability, like I'm, I wear my heart on my sleeve, I say it as it is, my other half, I happily say this, you know, she probably won't listen to this episode, but the opposite, the polar opposite. In fact, you know, we, we often find ourselves talking to each other where I'm like, I just, just a little, little pat on the shoulder will do me like, if you can, you know, if you can't give me a hug type thing.

12:22Um, uh, but then I think vulnerability, yeah, I just, just, I just need to feel wanted, but the, uh, the vulnerability is so, so, so broad. Um, and I think in the workplace there is a balance to be found there. You know, I don't think it's about uh bearing your soul to everyone yeah but i you know my view is is that um it's do i have empathy for other people can i recognize and spot you know when someone's in a tough place you know if they're not able or they they they suddenly are unable to deliver on a piece of work is there something going on if they traditionally have been able to cover it um does it does it is does that ring true for you?

13:08Is there another side of vulnerability that you think of? Yeah, I think showing parts of yourself is so crucial for empathy, you know, and I think it's really difficult to have empathy and be able to really connect with the people that you're working with, particularly as a leader. You know, if you want to try and understand where somebody's coming from, what their challenges are, if you're a closed book. And I think when I came back to TLC and had made the decision, the commitment to start showing up more as myself, I know I was then a much better leader. And, you know, everybody felt that, you know, so I think it doesn't necessarily mean that you're sitting there saying, I feel like this today, or it could just literally just be talking about, you know, who you really are outside of work and some of the things that are going on for you.

13:57on a personal level I'd love to understand just a second like when you go on something like a personal like when you go on a silent retreat what what what does it teach you what has it taught you that you've been able to take forward into your life today I love silence which like obviously some people think about a silent retreat and they're like that sounds like a nightmare I'm like that sounds like heaven especially like when you've got kids you know sometimes you know now I haven't done one since you know for a long long time now and I have got young kids and you know but the idea of it now is like oh that'd be so nice but on a deeper level um it it enforces you to confront the voices in your head you know that you often just a background noise you ignore it and and they're you know they're very loud and you have to hear what they're saying and And eventually, if you do enough of time in silence, then you will start, that voice will start to quiet down and then you get to, you know, real presence.

15:01And once you've accessed that, then, you know, you can never know that. It's not like now I can access it easily. You know, I don't practice meditation enough anymore. But now I've had that experience. I know it's there to be accessed. See, I don't like the word meditation. I have what I call quiet time. And I do it every morning for 10 minutes. And I listen to a guided speaker on an app. And I say a few things in my head. And it's exactly the same aspect. It helps to, I could have, you know, that internal voice speaking to me all day. you know i can have thoughts that are either intrusive or uh or totally benign weird odd and what i've learned is is that you know thoughts are like clouds in the sky right they just you can either sit there and you can sit over you or you can just let them pass one by one um so i identify with that and and why do i say that because i could drive in the car with my stepson harry and kelly and i could have no radio on and sit in silence and that's that's delightful for me yeah um and they think i'm weird um uh equally at the same time if i've been working at home uh and suddenly everyone comes in the tv's a bit too loud and i've got the dogs there and someone's cooking up again i really i really struggle with that stuff so i I love the silence yeah I love the silence in fact when I go to when I go to uh meetings that I go to uh that help me stay sober you know more often not if no one's speaking I love it yeah and then and then you get someone that speaks up and says oh I couldn't bear the silence yeah everyone's so different in that way it's mad as well it's uh it's mad was um I guess I guess is then you know if we if we if we kind of pick up when you came back from uh from finding yourself on a mountain in india um it is cliche but you know so it is what it is were there was there a moment uh where you are it could have been personally professionally in the workplace at home where there was shit that you wish you'd said i often find that people in senior roles they look back on their career and they're like, I probably could have done that differently.

17:34And I want to encourage people to know that it's okay to feel like that. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of examples. Again, I think one jumps out. So March, 2020. Crisis is a word that gets associated with that time. I was eight weeks pregnant with my second child conceived via IVF. I'd had two back-to-back rounds of IVF. which was, you know, very, very intense on my body. And I was full of hormones and I had very heavy sickness. So I was throwing up a couple of times a day, felt nauseous all the time. And my oldest was three and he was at home because he couldn't go to nursery. And all I could hear was, where's mummy, where's mummy, where's mummy.

18:23And like every leadership team, I think on the planet at that time we were on a zoom call you know me and my board team trying to navigate this this unknown thing you know which was going to have an impact on the business in some way we just didn't know how and trying to make decisions on the fly with very little information no data that affected people's lives you know the people that work for us and how we were going to you you know, survive this thing. And I remember one particularly difficult call, you know, quite highly tense call where we were trying to make some big decisions that we just had to make, getting off the phone, going into my bathroom and just having a full blown panic attack.

19:09And I have only had, I think, two in my life. So I'm not someone luckily who suffers with panic attacks but I just remember being on the bathroom floor and just being like this is I just can't do this and I never said anything and the thing is I work with the most unbelievable board team in the world and if I'd have said what I should have said which is guys I will do everything I can but I am seriously struggling here I am being very sick I've you know I just can't do this they would have been like switch off we've got this they would have completely had my back but I just didn't feel I could do that I felt this like weight of responsibility for the people that work for the company and my place in that I'm operations you know and it was a you know a massive crisis you know which is you know where I need to step up and step in and it didn't feel possible for me to say it but I should have absolutely said it and even afterwards I haven't I hadn't said it you know so um I never this is the first time you're saying it out loud yeah yeah yeah actually yeah um and I I regret that because it's just madness not to have accepted the reality that I was in at that point you know yes of course everybody was struggling in some way, especially being a leader of a company and not knowing what to do when COVID set in.

20:39But with that on top of two back-to-back rounds of IVF and my oldest at home and being extremely sick, I should have said, guys, this is too much for me. And I didn't. And somehow managed to sort of navigate through that. But I think that's just another example, even though it was quite a lot later than when I came back to TLC and I'd made that commitment to be more authentic and show up it was just another example where it's still a work in progress that was only five years ago and you know I still just hid all of that away because it felt like the only option at the time and it and of course it wasn't it's mad you know everyone that's come on the podcast and actually just people I speak to outside of this and and I don't know maybe I feel quite maybe that's why I've created this because I don't, um, I remember actually funny enough, COVID, uh, uh, I wasn't in a particularly good place.

21:35I hadn't been, hadn't been going to my meetings for a couple of years, not for any other reason than just life got good. You know, the gifts of my recovery came. Um, and, and I just kind of, uh, I put it up, it was, it was, it was a backseat right um and there was there was a moment where I wasn't happy and I ended up taking sick leave for the first time ever in my career and I thought to myself not why don't more people do this but why is it taking me so long maybe I didn't have a moment like that why is it taking me so long to be able to speak up um because I was always quite honest at that point I've been you know honest for quite a few years um so I find it fascinating every senior leader I talk to says the same thing I don't know why I didn't say anything yeah and I and I can only I can only sit there and um make a wild assumption which may be incorrect and a generalization that people are worried that it's going to affect their standing and it's going to affect, you know, whether they're able to do their job, whether they're going to get a pay rise, whether they're, you know, going to be looked upon as weak.

22:56And I actually think some of the strongest people are the ones that have been able to address head on some of those challenges and actually be able to demonstrate to people that that was a that was a rocky road yeah yeah completely I mean for me I did I wasn't worried that it would affect my standing I can look back in hindsight and know that because I have such a you know well-established team around me that you know the board team that I work with we've been together for a long time and we have nothing but respect for each other and like I said they would have supported me but yeah probably being seen to be weak but it's an internalized conditioning that It's not come from anybody else, certainly not the people I work with.

23:40It's more about, you know, what's in me, you know, that's driving my, you know, inability to say at any point, I can't do this. It's like, you know, I am the strong one, you know, which is obviously not always a good thing. And like I said before, it's like an active practice now. Do you find that there are triggers that you experience every day that might take you to that same place or at least take you to a place that you can spot before you get to the rock bottom or the moment where it's tough? Are there things that regularly come up for you? I guess being a COO of a very successful global organisation must be quite a lot.

24:28Yeah, I'd say not day to day triggers that sort of take me to a certain place. I think there are triggers that bring up feelings in me. I'd say the first one is imposter syndrome. You know, when I hear people talking about it or get asked a lot, have I got it? Did I have it? It's something that I don't know, it brings up an uncomfortable feeling in me where, you know, I never really felt like I had it. but then sometimes I felt like if I didn't say I had it it would make me sound like I've got an ego so I feel like I don't know this for sure but I think I probably said I had it a few times just because maybe that makes me sound a bit more modest but I hear it a lot and especially from women and so a couple of years ago I was like what is this thing you know that so many people feel they have and it and you almost expect it of certain people especially women and so I did some research and it was actually coined in 1978 by two female psychologists um obviously in 1978 there were a lot of women that sort of were imposters in a lot of industries so that's quite telling in itself but um they studied women so it was a study of women initially and they studied women in professional settings and they said they all had these common traits and so they grouped them together and they said it's imposter syndrome and when you look at the traits nervous overwhelmed out of your depth feeling like you don't belong I get nervous I was nervous today like I get nervous a lot you know it comes and goes I'm not nervous right this second but I was half an hour ago overwhelmed I'm a working mum with two young kids I get over like when am I not overwhelmed like busy job busy life I get really overwhelmed feeling like I'm out of my depth I've always felt like I'm out of my depth I mean who doesn't feel like they're out of their depth like you know I took on a lot of responsibility at a young age and I was definitely out of my depth and you know sometimes I feel like oh yeah I know what I'm doing and sometimes I'm like oh I'm really out of my depth.

26:45So it's like, these are normal things that people feel. And actually what you're doing with these conversations is show that. So I just, it triggers me because I'm like, well, everybody's feeling this stuff. So why do people then feel like they have to put this sort of label on themselves, which holds people back? You know, I've got imposters. I'm an imposter. it's like no you are having a normal human experience and everybody else is too they just don't talk about it so much so if you're nervous so now what I try and do is you know if I am feeling nervous at work I'll just say the words you're you did it just before and I think it's great because it's like yeah it's so normal so I that that sort of maybe it's not a trigger but it it like grinds my gears.

27:35Another one, and it sort of links to what something you said before, but it's when people say that I'm scary or intimidating because when I came into my career, I was very aware that there's this like stereotype of women in business that can be really negative, you know, like the devil wears Prada or, you know, there's lots of examples. I think popular culture hasn't particularly helped with this um and I I was really like I felt very strongly at the time of starting out that I never wanted to be seen that way and so I've always like gone over and above to try and be kind and fair and nice and friendly but the reality is like the more senior you get it doesn't really matter what you do people will always perceive you how how they want to perceive you and just your title alone you know can be quite an intimidating thing but it really triggers something in me when people say that because I've I've sometimes overcompensated which isn't a good thing and you know I I definitely care too much about how people perceive me and that they think that I'm nice and you know as long as I'm acting in the way that I feel is right I shouldn't really matter but it does and I I put some of my biggest mistakes in my career down to overcompensating on this and just trying so hard to you know not be seen as ruthless or bossy or mean and I do think obviously women do get held to a slightly different standard with this stuff and um you know you know more more quickly seen as you know intimidating or scary than maybe maybe men um so when when I'm told that I'm like no why yeah society has drastically changed in the last 10 years and hearing from people like yourself and you know many of the others that have come and will come on the podcast um I hope helps to destigmatize or normalize some of these, I guess, taboo, difficult topics that exist in the worst place.

29:54I've never heard anyone unpack imposter syndrome like that. Right. Never heard anyone unpack it. In fact, I think I've said it countless times myself. Um, and I agree we, we, we as a society like to package things up to make them easy. And actually when you break it down, you're like, well, that's just normal. Yeah. Anyone's going to feel like that. Yeah. Um, it, you know, I think the same exists with ADHD, you know, and, and having done the test for Al, uh, my stepson, yeah, he's on the spectrum. We don't label him as ADHD because we don't believe that that is a beneficial thing for him at this age.

30:34Now, might that be something in later in life? Possibly, but I want him to discover that himself I don't want to create the conditions that make him feel like he's a minority and so I think about the next generation like how how do you feel you know obviously you talked about your kids um and I guess that's where I'm going is the lessons that you you teach them and then how you bring that in in into the workplace and forgive me for being direct but like obviously fertility and IVF is probably an area in the workplace that isn't discussed because why would you discuss it yeah maybe just for a second just talk me through that experience of going through that journey but then um how then where we are as a society at the moment how you then you know translate that into making sure your kids are set up yeah be the best version of themselves yeah I mean it's a really really hard thing for anyone to go through in any capacity whatever you're doing it's all consuming my journey was seven years from sort of the start to the end and I'm very fortunate to have had two successful pregnancies through that but yeah it's very much behind the scenes because you can't really talk about it even if you're the most authentic heart on sleeve person, you can't go into work every day and say, I got my period today or, you know, oh, I just got injected.

32:02And, you know, because you also, you don't want that expectation from people of, are you pregnant yet? You know, so you can't really communicate it until you're out the other side. So it's something that you have to navigate while you're still living your life because you can't put your life on hold for seven years or however long it takes. Obviously, I had my oldest in that time and, you know, had a maternity leave and there was probably a little bit of a gap of not trying. But, you know, there's big chunks of your career where you're having to continue working, you know, and building your career and succeeding in that way while every thought is consumed by what's going on in your body.

32:47and anyone who's been on a fertility journey will know how all-consuming that is it's not something that you can just put down and okay at the end of the day I'll think about it because you're so hyper aware of everything that's happening all your symptoms and when you are in active treatment you're injecting daily and that's then having another knock-on effect on your energy levels or side effects, you know, so you are having to sort of deal with this big, big thing while you're still showing up every day as you always would. I think I was able to do that because I had all that previous training of being able to put on a veneer and, you know, so I managed to do it, but yeah, it was not easy.

33:30And I think now bringing that back to my kids, It's, I think just, you know, similar to what I was saying about imposter syndrome, I think teaching them that it's okay to feel whatever they're feeling and that it's okay for them to talk about it. Like I, um, I was a really shy kid, like a really, really, really shy kid up until I was about 14, like painfully shy, I would say. And my oldest son is, um, also shy, although he's, he's nine now. And I think he's, he's showing a lot more confidence than I did at that age, But I have said to him, you know, from a young age when I could see, you know, that there were the same kind of signs that I had of shyness and sort of like a discomfort in social situations that it's totally fine that you feel like that.

34:18But I think us 80s kids, it was very different. You know, it was there wasn't that understanding and so many things, you know, and I have a huge amount of empathy for our generation's parents because they didn't have access to the kind of information that we have now. But I think just saying to him, it's absolutely fine that you feel this way. Like it will pass. One day you won't feel that. One day you will. It's fine. It's normal. Lots of other people feel it. They might not show it. I think that might have helped him get confidence a bit sooner than I did. Everything I've learned about trying to be honest about where I'm at and that all feelings are normal.

35:02you know it doesn't make you one thing it doesn't make you an imposter or it doesn't mean you have imposter syndrome if you feel out of your depth when we first had a conversation you talked about your fear of public speaking and it got me to thinking just there because I don't rehearse this stuff as I've said to you so I've just I'm going with where where my head head takes me how's that how's that worked you know has there been was there a moment that you had to stand yourself in front of a mirror and say pull yourself together Emma you're about to talk to 450 people you're about to walk into a boardroom you know of VCs or whatever it may be where you've you know where you've had to really have a chat with yourself and just be like come on mate this is just got to get over it now I mean I don't think it came from me but it did come from somebody but that's been probably the biggest challenge that I faced in my career because I wouldn't call it a fear.

35:58I would actually call it a phobia. I think it comes from that shy kid, even though I'm not really shy anymore. You know, I feel quite confident generally. There's something in me that like, if all eyes are on me, I just get a very physical sensation. Like the nerves are very overwhelmingly physical. My heart beats really fast. I get a dry throat. And I've had to public speak throughout my career. and there's been so many times where it's just almost felt impossible and it got to a point I think I was probably in my early 30s where the founder of TLC said I'm gonna get you a coach I'm gonna pay for somebody to have some time with you this amazing woman called Lynn Blades who's a coach and she we had some sessions together and she made me do a presentation to her that I'd just done a leadership conference.

36:56And because I'm so nervous and I have this phobia, I had to like script it. So I'd had the script and the way that I would have delivered it in the conferences, I would have stood up and read the script. She filmed me reading this script to her. And in my mind, it wasn't too bad because I was prepared. And I, you know, I said all the words properly and then she played it back to me and it was just so boring and there was no personality it was just like robot like reading all the words and it was just like a light bulb moment you know it was a very clever like way for me to see and like be confronted with the what I had become as a public speaker and I have a lot to say it's not like I feel like I'm not able to articulate myself it's just that the nerves just feel so overwhelming that I I struggle to get my words out particularly in the beginning so I sort of have to write it all down and so when she gave me that feedback and we did then some like she gave me some tips and tricks on how to sort of calm the nerves when they come it got better from then on you know that was 10 years ago and I'd say now I still feel the nerves but they pass a lot quicker and I now know that the answer isn't just like reading from a script I have to prepare so that's something I think maybe some people don't realize that even you know really senior people have to do like I some people don't you know our CEO he's an absolute master of public speaking he will just stand up in front of any size crowd and it will just come out beautifully like I have to prepare it's just the way that I'm built but even with my preparation I know that I have to bring in some personality otherwise it just won't work and sometimes I will literally stop like I'll be at our leadership conference big long table presenting something really important and sometimes I'll stop and I'll be like I'm really nervous and that immediately helps to dissipate it so like I've I think that before that coaching I felt like it was something I really had to hide like you can't be this senior person and have this phobia like you know absolutely no like shove it away and now I own it and I tell everyone like I'm I literally talk about it all the time particularly to some of the younger people at work because I I want them to know that if they feel that way, it's absolutely fine.

39:25You can still get through it and it's, you know, it will get better. And, you know, it's been like a muscle I've had to train because you do something so much. Yeah. It does get easier. I think it takes the power out of it as well. When you're just honest about it with yourself and other people. Yeah. We were actually talking about it on one of the previous episodes with Lisa from WPP. and we we talked about pitching because we have to do a lot of it and it it feels like a live job interview yeah like like you almost certainly the expectation yes we we're there to tell a story to a client and demonstrate you know um our point of view based on what they what they require um but you feel like you're in a live interview with your bosses at every single time and you know i I was saying in particular, it took me a long time to understand why rehearsals matter.

40:23Oh gosh. Yeah. So important. I'm also known for, okay, Danny doesn't like rehearsals because I don't like it because I'm not, I'm not a scripted person. Um, and I tend to work a bit more fluidly because it's who I am. And I think it comes across more genuinely, but I've now learned, I have to write out my notes and I, I write them out longhand. And then I, over the next few days, I write them out shorthand, shorthand, shorthand. And I've got three pages there and I have my book next to me and it's not even a big book. It's like a small little pocket size book. And I just take a little glance, you know, just before about to start and I have a look at it.

41:08And, you know, the truth is is someone told me the thing is danny is that the people that you're presenting to they don't know what you're going to present so they don't know whether you're supposed to say something or you're not supposed to say something yeah so it's only yourself and the other people and if you don't say it you don't say it yeah you know yes it will be frustrating for you but i i had i had and i still have that same same fear you know when we launched the podcast i had I told you, but a room of 30 people. Um, and there were people that I cared about in my career, in the industry, in my, you know, my, my family, I was so nervous.

41:47I was petrified. Like it was like the smallest room. And I was, I was genuinely shaking because I get emotional as well. And then I'm like, I don't want to cry. And I did. And like, people have said it to me so many times over the years where I've been like, I'm so nervous. And they're like, it's because you care, you know and I do think that yeah you know I think it I think it's a lot of self-inflicted pain that you know when you feel like it needs there's a perfectionism thing for me definitely there which isn't helpful but I also think it's because I really want it to be good I want to be able to get the points I want to make across and because I care about it are there any uh specific techniques you use before you're either or I guess in the run-up to or immediately before the moment do you G yourself up?

42:32Do you, you know, do you, I don't know, have a shot of ginger? Breathing, breathing techniques. Okay. Yeah. I like breathe, box breathe. So four in, hold four, four out, hold four, you know, that, that definitely helps a bit. And also I think just accepting that they're there, like that all the physical stuff, when I was younger, I used to fight against it so much, so hard, you know, I'd just be like, what's wrong with me? Why do I feel this like this? Like, it's going to be so bad. Like, and now I've, I've got enough experience to know that it, it doesn't completely ruin it. I can still deliver what I want to say with the nerves there.

43:12And they do dissipate once, once I've started and got going. So now when I feel it before, cause it's always before is the worst nerves. I'm just like accepting of them. Like I'm a bit kinder to myself and that helps a lot you know I'm just like they're there it's okay I always I always say um there's three stories that I deliver when I'm working on a pitch or a big meeting there's the one before which is you know perfectly scripted every single point that I need to land um every data a point that needs to be kind of uh articulated there's the story that I deliver in the room which often is uh missing half the stuff in my head that I was supposed to say and then there's a story after which is like I wish I said this this and this and to me I've learned more and more to forget about the after yeah and if anything I've learned more and more to forget about the beginning yes I prep but what comes out in the moment is what comes out in the moment if I know what I'm talking about the chances are is that it will come through um and you know sometimes you know I might have someone say you know they'll joke you know because they know that I I deliver with passion and I can't deliver with passion in like 20 seconds I need a minute I need a minute and a half for that passion um so it's uh it's a fascinating uh challenge as you grow more senior in your role to have to have to overcome um so let's let's kind of bring it to bit of a close um uh we talk about the permission slip and we talk about you know giving people yeah i guess permission to feel think or do something different in their role you've had an amazing career um you know both personally um i think kind of your journey of development but also professionally in terms of where trc are now um what advice would you give to people what permission would you give people would you give to people to kind of think feel do say that's different to what they do now?

45:18Well, again, it sounds really cheesy, but I think it's got to be yourself. You know, I think it took me a really long time to get to a point where I realized how important that was for my ability as a leader, you know, to be engaging, to be able to connect with people. And I think, you know, success, you know, people talk about what is success. I think success is using, for me anyway, It's using the gifts that you've been given, you know, whatever your real skill set is to make a difference. And that doesn't necessarily need to be making a difference charitably. It could be building something that you really care about or meeting KPIs that help a business to succeed or that, you know, supports your family, you know, but it's using what is true to you to make a difference.

46:11And I just don't think you can really achieve your greatness or, you know, the level of success that, you know, is your peak unless you are true to who you are. And like I said, for me, that's still a work in progress, but I know it to be true. Like in my bones, I know that that is true. So I would say be yourself. But I do think that the younger generation are coming in at a much higher starting point with this. Like I look at some of the young people, I don't know if it's the same for you, but I look at some of the young people that I work with and there is a level of sort of confidence really early on on who they are and like a bit of an uncompromising stance on like this is how I'm going to show up and this is who I'm going to be.

46:59and I think it's so inspiring you know I definitely don't feel like that was the vibe you know when I was 22 you know coming into my career but so I think the younger generation are probably gonna continue you know on that journey anyway and hopefully that continues and you know for our children it's even more so so that's really exciting and encouraging to see but yeah it would have to just be from all my experience just really try and be true to you and be yourself. Amazing. Emma, thank you so much for joining today. Amazing journey, amazing story. I look forward to everyone hearing this episode.

47:37And yeah, thank you once again for joining. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

47:58ship when you want, how you want with stamps.com. Print postage on demand 24-7 and schedule pickups from your office or home. Save up to 90 % with automated rate shopping. That's why over 1 million small businesses trust stamps.com. Go to stamps.com and use code podcast to try stamps.com risk-free for 60 days.