Radio Better Offline: David "Shingy" Shing

32:28Like, I wouldn't be using it all the time. You can't. It is not reliable enough. Good point. No, I wasn't even trying to got you there, but you just can't right now. And it's also, you know, it's not higher resolution enough. There's many reasons why. But it does get you to mediocre faster. And so at least that allows you to be able to get… No, I'm not disagreeing, but yeah. You know, so at least make those decisions and say, obviously that's a bad idea. We're not going to go forward with it, as opposed to somebody polishing 10 great ideas or 10 mediocre ideas and finding out there's one should have been executed faster, better, sooner.

32:58Maybe that's a case for it. I think you've really touched upon something, though, which is I think a lot of my listeners and my readers struggle with why so many corporations want generative AI to grow. And part of it is the labor automation. Why they want generative AI to grow? Yeah, why they want AI to be a thing. And there's many stupid reasons, But I never thought about the fact that just in the ads world, which controls large swaths of our economy and funds a lot of the tech industry, just all creativity was considered minor. I mean, it's very obvious now I say it. But, like, it's fascinating to know that from that perspective.

33:34Is that like an executive position? Well, yet here's the challenge. You have mediocre creatives seen by many. Right. And you see really great creatives seen by few. So that's why it feels like the creatives still sort of sit at the back. They're trying to do these things, but whenever a discussion says at scale, that's when it falls apart. So that's why it's kind of – Why is mediocre seen by the many, though? Like why does – Simply because of format, I think, is really – you know, the ability to try and create something that has a contagiousness to it. Today seems to have a celebrity moment. And those days, I think, are kind of at least falling away.

34:20And there are better places for people to hold their attention. So metrics have to change effectively. Go away from popularity and talk about other things like how do you hold somebody's attention for the longest time versus just trying to saturate, you know? Right. I mean, I think the landscape's changing, but I don't think creation of content or creativity is evolving at the same pace. But would evolving even matter if there was this attitude towards creatives? Yeah, well, e.g. format, of course. What do you mean? Shape of the ad, style of the ad. You talked about AR as a good example. That was Small Orient's wow experience, to be honest.

35:04But where was the conversion there? Because that's the thing. It doesn't feel like there has been a new successful ad format in a long time. Have you seen other? No, I really haven't. It's so strange, isn't it? I've tried on, as I'm sure you have with Vision Pro, you've tried on the goggles. Oh, Christ, yes. You know, I can't really see anybody. Firstly, it just doesn't scale. It comes back to that, right? There is no scale. Yeah. But it's immersive. But the reality of are you building things for a one-to-many or are you building it for one-to-one? And just even then, I have to wonder if there's not a problem, which we, the geniuses have discovered, which is there is no, like we're in the iHeartRadio studios.

35:44One of the most successful advertising formats, as my listeners love to tell me, is the ads, the basic radio play ads. Yeah, the audio ads, sure. And display ads. And so CPA, CPM. otherwise it doesn't feel like advertising has evolved it's tried to evolve yeah I mean we tried to do it with devil we tried to do with these incredible formats and do they work they certainly did and the measurement of work is you know dwell time click through all of those things that you can measure right they were going through the roof and they work until they become standards and then they don't work because they're everywhere so there's this exclusivity to these things that make you feel like you're it's scale and then scale comes in room no because when everyone does the same thing and it all gets back to fucking display well you end up with homogenization right so that's why it's homogenized everything feels normalized it feels right consistently the same thing regardless of what you put in it there was a there was something and i you know this conversation makes me think of something that was retro years ago when these ad formats came out there was this ad and i don't know what brand it is so that at the jump it tells me that the thing didn't work but what was working was this incredible experience so a band built shape of a ad display had two shapes one was square one was rectangular right and in this square they had a drummer and maybe a guitarist in that square they had a basis and maybe the vocalist and they were playing live in these display in the display and those live display because they were proportionally How did that work?

37:16They were being broadcast to these websites. That's so strange. It was so fabulous. Did it work? It felt, I don't know, but it made a hell of an impression on me 20 years upstream. So that's the thing. And it just felt very inventive. That is inventive. I'm also going to have to look this up because that sounds, how the hell. Yeah, band in a box or something. I can't remember what was called. I will look this up. It's very cool. But it feels almost as if the more I think about the ads and display ads and all this, how like this might actually be what's really undermined generative AI, which is they are trying to scale something that requires advertising dollar level funding with subscriptions, which may not work.

37:56I think you've hit on something. But I do think that when there's a format that becomes consistent, which doesn't exist today. Right. Right. When you've got that, there's always these outlines that are trying to create something around that format. Right. So back then in the day, there was breakouts and you have an ad, you click on it, you know, folds open. Right. You know, all of those sort of things that happened. All of that stuff was really just to say, here's the format that we've all decided is important. We're going to put this value on top of it that makes it feel like it's really different.

38:24And it reminds me of that band in the box thing. Yeah. Because there's no consistent interface, you can't have a consistent ad. So everything around it, all these ads that we're going to see, they're going to be cloaked in this thing called context and value, I think. And it'll be obfugated because it'll come back as a long paragraph talking about why you should buy these Sony headphones versus something else. Yeah, I can see them trying that. For sure. I mean, particularly in descriptive results. The problem is if that result is generative, that's going to shave off that little bit of CPM revenue that's going to scrape it off.

38:55It's like it's almost as if it's antithetical to ads. Actually, I'll tell you where it won't shave it off. It won't shave it off because it'll probably move from a CPM to a CBA. How expensive would that be? Who knows? But it depends on the cost of – I mean, it depends on what the attribution cost is going to be. But just stay with me for a second. If it moves from cost per million or thousands to cost per acquisition, then there is a direct cost because that ad is generated one-to-one. Right. So it isn't a many-to-many model. It's a one-to-many. Sorry, it's actually a one-to-one generative. So I'm able to produce an ad that feels highly tailored to Ed and his needs.

39:35That should be highly valuable, I suspect. It should be, but the hallucination when you scale it to a million people is the thing. But you don't have to, sorry, you don't have to scale it is what I'm saying. Yes, you do. No, you don't. You don't. Because if people aren't, if you're searching generally for an ad. Some headphones. We're searching for some headphones and you're presented with an ad for headphones. If it's generating for each person, say a million people see this ad, and it is one-to-one, it's still generative with fresh. At one point, it's going to hallucinate. It's just – I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong with the idea.

40:05It's just the scale. It's not completely thought out, I can tell you that. No, no, no. No, it's the scale. Yeah, yeah. But the scale is a challenge. Period, full stop. With generative AI, it's – I just have to wonder if this is not part of the economic failure because it doesn't – it scales. But when you try and scale it in the traditional tech software way, subscriptions, it's not they're not making enough money with it. But even when you try and put it into ads, ads are by definition going to be scaled to millions, hundreds of millions of people to make any money. And if you're doing generative, you're going to have things like Google telling you to eat rocks.

40:42I will tell you that I think this conversation isn't ready for that type of architecture because the generative tools are designed for generating. They're not designed for consuming. Sure. So I don't think there's a mass – I don't think the volume of people is at a point where average people are going to consume things based on search criteria as a new rhythm. I mean, that's how Google makes all its money. And that's Google. But if you're talking about these other tools that are thinking about how they actually monetize, it's from a creative perspective, not from a consumption. Yeah, I was just talking at scaling generative AI as an ad tech tool or an ad tool.

41:23And in your reference to that example with Google, yeah, I'd be surprised if they're not at least trialing that. Oh, they just started trying, but it's funny. In their search results. In their search, they just started. Gemini tools. Yeah, well, no, they're now putting Gemini front and center, which is so funny. It's just like. Well, it definitely crowds out their homepage. Let's just say that. Well, that's the thing. Like, Google's in this weird, this really weird spot now. And actually. Do you think it's a catch-up spot? Tell me when you say weird. Define that some more. Well, I mean, the Google search has never been worse.

41:56Right. It's definitely the worst it's ever been. It's a little bit like Craigslist of the 90s, yes. By comparison, Craigslist's information was relatively validated. I mean, you didn't have Craigslist optimization experts. And if you did, I'd love to meet them. But it's Google's position right now is they're behind on AI, even though it's like being the first to eat out of the toilet, in my opinion. It's they're behind on AI. Their ad traffic is slowing. Like everything is kind of contracting with them. And they're desperate. And people hate these AI search results. So, yeah, they are in a weird spot.

42:33But on top of it, I think we've actually noticed one thing, which is the core economics of tech are around ads. And ads have been the same for 15 to 20 years. They've had, I mean, ads at scale. Sure. It's the at scale question that comes back to that. Because, you know, everything sounds great in that statement until you say at scale. Exactly. And that's kind of the world. oh mate you'll hear that the creative brief stage where it's like how can we do this but it needs to scale i'm like wow but that's not take that out of the vernacular ads take that out of the vernacular of media it's everything is trying to scale the beauty industry is trying to do things at scale they're trying to do things at a high volume i mean this is just part of the vocab it's an attempt to do something at scale with nuance which is almost impossible i imagine yeah that's a good observation I mean, look at the Super Bowl commercials.

43:27They're all insane. Every single Super Bowl commercial is like either old people doing something that young people do or 11 celebrities. Right. And I was watching the Super Bowl. A lot of retro soundtracks. Exactly. Yeah. And like big noises. And I feel very stupid because now I understand they are trying to create something that everyone could enjoy. Man, I know so little sometimes. But that's – I mean, the truth of that is to matter for everybody means you matter for nobody. and that analogy rings true there. So there's something nostalgic and comfortable and okay, but everything around it has to be super weird to try and make it fit, you know, in that example.

44:06But, you know, I think a Super Bowl is a really good example of, you know, it's a moment, right? The rest of, I don't know what happens on daytime TV, but those sort of ads don't turn up there, I expect. Yeah, because you would also be spending so much money on all of it. You'd know more about the economics.

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46:15The only constant in Hollywood is change. Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Daily Variety, and listen. now i actually want to change gears slightly because you did write something related to nostalgia and as a as a creative as you as you go about your business are you finding more demand on the client side for more nostalgic things returning to the 90s or the 2000s are you finding any of that yeah it's not a it's not a date stamp yeah it's just a feeling and that The nostalgic vibe is, I think it's a throwback to, look, we're in a room right now that has a lot of nostalgia around it, mate.

46:57These buttons couldn't be more big. Oh, I love them. And these sort of analog knobs and you know what I mean? Yeah. Creaky chairs and, you know, the only thing that's modern here are the shore mics. Everything else is kind of retro, including the. And Daniel Goodman's wonderful skills. And the MDR headphones, whatever we're wearing right now. But what's amazing about this is there's a throwback, one, to those who are old enough to know about nostalgia and those young enough to be curious about it. Because they didn't grow up with it, but they're super curious to read through liner notes and understand that there's a flip side to an LP.

47:29And there's something very Moorish about slowing it down because everything is highly consumptive. Even in the time we've spoken, I saw you pick up your phone. Oh, that was to get a picture. Half a dozen times. No, it's once I can't. Can I not exaggerate? No. What's amazing about this is that there's something really kind of about that distraction that anchors it. There's something beautiful about nostalgia. And I'm going to keep harping on about it because I see it pop up. I mean, Super Bowl is a classic example. I think I counted like 11 songs or something, Ed. I'm going to misquote that. But I could pick everything from bloody Huey Lewis to Journey or something.

48:06And I'm like, my God, you know, firstly, what happened? And secondly, is this the only thing we have as this throwback? there's something really unique about it i have to wonder if it's not a bit of trying to ignore reality as well you talk about i don't mean it in a bad way when you look at the news it sucks you look at like everything kind of sucks there's you talk about the idea that we're constantly getting we're having to engage with our devices constantly and i agree and it's the kind of a return to a time when we weren't harassed by them even though we i love being online but at the same time now i hated it before online i'm not going to pretend i imagine normal people crave the time of not being online constantly and not having, because it's not just like content.

48:47It's you get work emails, you get your texts from people mad at you, you get texts from a T-shirt company you bought from 15 years ago. It feels like maybe people are craving an off-ramp almost. Yeah, or permission to have one at least. Yes. Can I also say, though, there's something about perhaps this fast culture that we've generated and this futuristic vibe that we've been in. Something, and what I mean, but I'm just going to apply this to a thought in that statement you said about nostalgia. When I watch a brand like BMW online and I see their cars which look amazing. Right. The love that a retro car, like an old car that they did back in the 80s, a boxy M series or something, an M3 or something, 325i or something.

49:38It gets way more love and commentary than anything they've got either in market or even planning on doing. Hyundai is a classic example. They threw out this. They might bring back this boxy, beautiful. Oh, is this the electric one, but it's like an 80s car? Yeah, dude. And it's got the square lights. Yeah, yeah. And you'll see people go into every single design detail, like the white wall tire to the type of mud cap. You don't get that sort of detail today. It's all spec, right? And it's not there's no emotion to it. But you look at these things that feel like and it's not bygone emotion. It's a different era of freedom.

50:15And maybe that's kind of the thing that is a land like terrestrial radio. It's probably still massive. I mean, it's so bloody successful. Terrestrial radio is unbelievable. And I think it's because in a world of just sudden conversations, you have real ones. The reason that I like doing the reason that any listener is curious about this, the reason I don't do a lot of virtual interviews is they they kind of. suck yeah like i made them pretty good but the in-person it's having the microphone it's like hearing yourself the bassy tones right right i also have to wonder if the reason that people are nostalgic for things like an old car or like a cd player or whatever is it felt like the companies gave more of a shit because you talk about that thing probably scaling yeah it's for it's built for everyone but built for no one every car kind of looks the same they all have the kind of tesla-esque curve to it or like they look like a porsche cayenne yeah not a car guy yeah they all kind of look and feel the same and they all cut and people are craving something that feels like anyone cared about building it maybe yeah and maybe it all got to a point i think maybe designing culture generally has got to a point where it feels like it's efficient yes and that efficiency means it's not i'm not tied to any of it dude you know what i mean yeah and that evolution of design means that if you've got efficiency already because you're using battery technologies and you're using something that doesn't have to feel like it looks like a pin so it becomes wind efficient and you build something that's square square square square god bless i think it's amazing i think this is why people don't like generative ai content as well because it really the point we're making earlier that it all kind of looks the same it has the uncanny valley it feels like wow no love went into it not just like not just like this is mass produced it's not even mass produced it's this sub production where we're creating this thing for no for nobody and everybody at the same time i don't i'm not going to debate generative ai's efficacy with you in any further i'm sorry about that but it's it's more we're all kind of craving a return to a time when things may felt like they were made for someone that they were made with a bit of a soul and it sucks to be in this world and it and it sucks to and i think that nostalgia is the natural it's kind of the natural endpoint of a culture that has escaped any kind of personalization or joy in the creation of anything mass market even the utility of these things doesn't feel like it's for people you know ed as you're having this discussion and i'm with you yeah i look out at the screen that we're facing and flow rider was wrong oh is he and before that was flavor flav and i think before that i might have seen snoop yep and i look at that and think to your point there's something about these this cycle of comfort and familiarity that i think is it's really interesting because what you're talking about is by the way i will just put a pin in this and say that i think the generative ai creation will absolutely be for everything other than the human and when you want to put a human in it just film them and then add them to this generative crazy background and utopia if you want to do it but these blended ai experiences will happen but i do think that because it's called cgi previously i and but i actually i'm going to push back on that and say i believe that will happen yeah but i think people are going to get really upset with it because you're kind of seeing it with severance and the mandalorian when they're doing these weird i don't know what it's called but it's when they do the on on shot thing where it's they pretend they're outside and for a while it convinced people then you saw it enough times you're like no fucking motherfucker but what it would also do though is it'll inspire you when you see something that's really designed by cutting up the cardboard box to make it feel like a cardboard box and i can show you some really good examples of people that push back against that and say we're just going to film this thing analog dude oh yeah and feel it and it feels so different and it does and it's just we're we're getting back to maybe nostalgia is just wishing that creatives gave, not creatives, because it feels like the mechanisms of creatives more than anything.

54:14Gave a shit. Gave a shit and felt like they were putting any thought into it other than just kind of simmering it down for everyone, making creative. I've almost bought the Samsung flip phone a couple of times. Oh, it's so cool. Yeah, it's so cool. I love it. I use that. Exactly. I need my iMessage. I need it. I'm a pig. And I don't have two phones. It just drives me crazy. But even the Motorola looks amazing. But there's something about that time when you'd have a flip phone and buttons and all that sort of stuff. I didn't. I didn't have a flip phone. I had the chocolate bar Nokia. Oh, that was so good, though.

54:47It's funny. It's funny, though. Chocolate bar Nokia, yeah. But even then, it kind of fucking sucked. I don't know why I'm pretending like I like this device. The moment the iPhone came along. Because you're probably still talking on the phone, and that sounded amazing. Oh, God, no. It did what it did on the tin. No, I just like. You were texting with all those buttons? Yes. Oh, I'm a freak in many ways. and it's just funny because as we discuss all these different bits it really is just like creativity is considered this stepchild of ads ads are the way that a lot of people are exposed to an alarming amount of creativity and it feels like people at scale are kind of becoming more aware of how much is manufactured for them maybe it's not just the thing maybe it's not that things have changed a ton i believe they have obviously but it's that they've kind of people are more aware now of when they're being fucked with, when they're being given the same slop, when they're being given.

55:38And I think that corporations may have slightly overplayed their hand. In the mass production era? I mean, you'll see that with foods. You'll see that with, I mean, education in that criteria is way more transparent and interesting than it used to be because you don't have to have, you know, you can consume less and probably feel better. I have a question for you. Is that an aura ring? Yes, I've got an aura ring. Why are you wearing it? Because I track my sleep. Oh, you do? my workouts and you're actually you are using it as a utility i am you haven't how long you had it that's a years yeah generation like a gen three isn't it oh three and do you find so do you do anything with the data or you just do it does it just reassure you oh no no oh no this is this is the terrible choice if if you wanted any gotcha no so actually i'm really interested in my sleep because i i realized a few years ago that my sleep was fucked and i couldn't work out why i was depressed um but i've become fascinated by what i don't know weed or alcohol will do to me not i'm like experimenting but if i have a bad night's sleep i like to look at it and say all right this does affect me i just got this thing called a somny as well what is it it's like a thing you strap to your head and it has little electrodes that go onto the top it's this fella you sleep it down on no no you just put it on it does like 15 minutes before bed it has increased my rem sleep and I have been feeling sharper.

57:00Really? Yeah. I'm annoying. Sorry, what does this thing do? Does it give you, is it sending electrodes into you or something? It has some sort of waves it does on you. I should be able to say this offhandedly. But you're finding your sleep cycles better? Yes. Now, are you finding that the patterns you, your sleep cycles previously, once you've sort of indicated I'm having a crappy night's sleep, has it changed your behavior? Yes. No. Like how proximity of using any substances before bed, like what I eat when I eat that was a big thing like eating late I also oh wow okay so you really are digging into the data yeah because otherwise why am I wearing this thing that on dating apps convinces people that I'm married yeah it's very fucking annoying there's something interesting about you know the adoption of these sort of technologies like athletes for example will clearly fall back to things like the whoop band or not they'll wear a Garmin or a like they'll wear these technologies that have been around for a long time for athletes But, you know, the iWatches of this world or, you know.

57:59iWatch. No, no, no. No, that just means you've been around a while. You're just still saying the shit before they'd even announced it. But, yes. But what's interesting to me is, you know, the subtlety of technology, while it calms down and gives you what you need, hopefully that changes your psychology. Now, you don't necessarily see that on the phone because all the phone does is kind of distract you or take you down a rabbit's warrant. So I was just super curious about what your behavior is, your relationship with that sort of tech. But it is funny. Because I push it away from all of it. I generally do.

58:29Like, with my workouts, I track my calories. And that is emotional. Yeah, good on you. No, that is absolutely emotional. And that's a good use case for that. But if I – oh, no, I use it – but this is the ultimate tech bullshit, though. I don't use this to track all my workouts. I track boxing with this. Oh, you do? You box with the ring on? Yeah. You bandage your hand up like that with the ring on? No, you get quick wraps on. Okay. yeah and it just doesn't crush your fingers it did with certain raps yeah okay but it's it's not the lowest profile ring that's why i'm not no it's really not it's like the chunky one victoria song of the verge was was are we spending too much time on the aura ring i don't care it's my show i'll do whatever the hell i want i can say fucking shit and balls and all that um it is funny though because all of this talk about nostalgia it is kind of where even i personally am leaning i'm listening to fucking metal from 15 years ago my favorite in flames album is colony which is 20 years old and barely resembles the band anymore right uh like one of my favorite movies is the guardians of the galaxy movie the first one which is inherently nostalgic and those movies got shit as all it became about was nostalgic and now i've just had a live thought which is that is the thing that's that is actually something that's driving a lot of culture which is the reason the marvel movies did well at the beginning was they were fun they were nostalgic they had these characters you'd love to see and they got progressively worse as these companies were like okay what do people like about this fuck it it's the people they recognize look it's the guy from the thing the corporatization of nostalgia yeah i think it's but it does get rebooted right so if you look at the music videos that are playing back here yeah half those soundtracks and i'm paraphrasing this are using a soundtrack that's retro yeah and there's something it's familiar right you hear this backbeat thing that seems like that's funky trim drummer from you know james brown you hear that in the track and think okay there's a reason why that works because it's just good and there's something about the time that that was done and it wasn't created to scale right i'm serious nor was it generative ai putting even aside generative ai for now i just mean like because if you look at this there would be multiple things on tiktok where it's like a band has popped up you're like wow they're so good or people have said this and it's turned out to be like they're pretending to be a garage band but it's actually a signed artist with united right right and and it's the it does fight and switch yeah and there's so much of it now and there are things that are made to be to appear normal and natural that are absolutely not and i think people are craving normality again they're craving things that don't feel mass produced.

1:01:04I agree with you. It's a funny time. Yeah, I wrote about craft this week, and it was really just about, you know, if you've got all these tools that make you feel like happy hands. What do you mean happy hands? Like very excited. All right. And I can defend that all day, every day. But what I lean towards is craft. You know, I will all day, every day rather a pen and pencil than trying to scribble something down on my iPad, you know? Yeah. So there's just something more visceral. and I'm leaning towards that as a test to make sure I'm not losing my rods and cones, that it's not just down this rabbit's warrant of distraction that I can actually be back to creation.

1:01:39Are you – well, you say you're aware of your phone nagging you. Are you generally – do you surround yourself with tech or do you try and stay analog? No, I push back against it. How so? So I had all the tech that made me look like a tribal leader like you. I mean, I get it, dude, but when I don't, gamifying data doesn't excite me about myself. Right. And it's not that interesting. And so the thing that's wild for me is nature. I mean, tech is, yeah, it's great to know, but what am I going to do with it? And I don't know if I want to do that with it, whatever that is. So, no, I try not to. I'm trying to push back to, no, not trying to push back.

1:02:18I'm trying to restrict the amount of things that occupy my mind and take my attention away from creating. And what are you creating? And is it just for you? I know. I'm right. Yeah. It is really – I have this concept of the addition of one. It really is just for me. And it doesn't matter if it doesn't scale. And I'm a classically trained designer. So I'm back to full design outside of my creative practice. And I have a wet studio. So I'm married to a – A wet studio? Yeah, I'm married to an artist. We have, you know. What is a wet studio? We have paints in the thing that are constantly dry. I mean.

1:02:53Lovely. It's very practical, dude. And it's not screen free. A lot of it is just back to articulating things. You know, playing music. You know, things that actually feel like. I play guitar, sing all that rubbish. But it's. Oh, it's fun. But it's. Oh, it's fantastic. I love singing. But more of that than just sort of being a participant. Yeah. I'd rather be actively participating in it, which is why I can't stand sports. I mean, I can't stand sitting and watching sports. I'd rather play football if I'm going to, you know, I'd rather go out in the field and kick if I'm going to kick. Right. I can't really sit back and watch.

1:03:26It drives me nuts. Interesting. But there's something about kind of just taking that position of the polymath. I've got lots of ideas that I want to express. Let's get them down on paper. But they're expressed for you rather than. Yeah. Unless others find it interesting. I've got a fashion collab that I'm doing and I've got these artisans and craft people in Mexico that are actually hand stitching this embroidery instead of digital embroidery, which I could have done. Right. And I'm finding it's sitting on the fabric differently. I mean, it's all of these things that are slow crafts. They're bloody.

1:03:59It's just awesome, dude. It really is. No, it's. It slows me down and puts me in a place that feels more conscious. It's funny because this show came from a newsletter that I wrote for 300 people. 58 500 now and this show started with a lot of people being very unfair to me on reddit and i will admit i changed welcome to the internet oh no fuck yeah i didn't change shit i just kept doing it until i felt good and it's interesting how the show's done well based on that rather than trying to change it for anyone yeah partly because i didn't i never really understood why i would change for them like i was like horse idiot 55 has told me they don't like it when i say this what the fuck am i meant to do write it down and like avoid the word fuck that it just it feels that that is also another thing plaguing creatives that there is this apparent source of derision and judgment on tap right and you have to do that to scale to do that and the desperation for engagement is kind of sucking the joy out of even the process it's too slow yeah it must be done this fast we must be timely yeah but there's one thing that's definitive is there's only certain amount of time in a day, isn't it?

1:05:09You can't create a new version of it, but you can participate in it differently. I think this has been an interesting conversation for me because I didn't know what we were going to chat about, if anything. Yeah. And I'm an admirer of your work, so congrats on all you're doing. Thank you so much, Shingy. I think we can wrap it there. Where can people find you, Shingy? You know, the interwebs. Yes, but where? Okay, I'll put it in the episode. I'm easily found on LinkedIn. Just look up Shingy. Which is probably the right place. Shingy, you can go to my.com. I'm there too. hanging out yeah um yeah but you know it's yeah this has been a blast thanks for coming in on a a hot streak about jen of course and we exit out on pottery who the hell knows joy has created my mom's potter as well okay zitron all right you've been listening to me my name's ed zitron you can google the uh who destroyed google search and you will find the answer is me thank you so much to daniel goodman our wonderful producer here in new york and thank you of course to all of you for listening you'll now hear a very similar message after that i recorded in february of last year and i swear i'm going to re-record matt osowski and i were talking about this yesterday peace out

1:06:21thank you for listening to better offline the editor and composer of the better offline theme song is matt osowski you can check out more of his music and audio projects at matt osowski.com M-A-T-T-O-S-O-W-S-K-I.com You can email me at ez at betteroffline.com or visit betteroffline.com to find more podcast links and, of course, my newsletter. I also really recommend you go to chat.wheresyoured.at to visit the Discord and go to r slash betteroffline to check out our Reddit. Thank you so much for listening. Better Offline is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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