Silicon Valley Fashion With The Menswear Guy

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2:55And after earnings failed to reassure investors about their concerns around generative AI's return on investment, NVIDIA's stock has suffered a record$279 billion loss in one day's trading. It's truly, truly crazy. And today we're talking about the most important story in NVIDIA, which is, of course, Chief Executive Jensen Huang and his wonderful swag. This man knows how to address, which can be rare in the tech industry. But I've brought in memoir expert Derek Guy to discuss it. Derek, thank you so much for joining me. Thanks so much for having me. So Jensen looks good, but how would you describe his general aesthetic?

3:34You know, it's funny for a guy who is essentially ushering in what could be transformative change in the economy, possibly having effects in politics. You know, many fear that this is going to spark off a wave of unemployment and kind of a shift of growing inequality in the United States. He kind of dresses like an evil character. I think he's very stylish, but he kind of dresses a bit like an evil character because he does these kind of all black outfits with these, most of them look like to be cowhide or look like cowhide, possibly goat hide leather jackets, sometimes exotic leather jackets, But it's always this kind of very sleek, all black look that, you know, you generally kind of associate with kind of ominous evilness.

4:28Yeah. And I always thought it was kind of more of a biker look. But what is he, do you think, even going for here? Do you think he's going for evil or is he just trying to be a certain kind of cool? No, I think he's probably aiming to be a certain kind of cool, a biker kind of edgy character. And I think he pulls it off well. I think he's actually one of the few, I think there's a low bar for tech guys. But he actually, I think, clears the bar to be a pretty stylish figure. So tell me about these jackets. Have you looked into what kinds? I know you've talked about materials, but what is it about these cuts exactly?

5:04And do you know the brands at all? I don't know the brands. I do think, I suspect that they're custom made for him. They fall very well on him. So everything about a jacket, whether it's a tailored jacket or a parka or a leather jacket, everything hangs from the shoulders. And if the shoulders are not cut right, then it's just the jacket's not going to fit well. And his jackets fit very well in that essentially he gets a very nice kind of upside down V shape for the zippers, which demonstrates that the shoulders fit well. And the cut is done intentionally to create that kind of a little bit more angular look.

5:41Some of his jackets, I believe, from memory, have what's called a long front balance. So when you're looking at a jacket from the side, it's always fine for the front of the hem to be lower or even with the back. But you never want the front of the jacket to be higher than the back. Generally speaking, I actually can't think of many exceptions to this rule. but his jackets are cut such that he gets very very on some of the jackets not all of them on some of the jackets he gets very low front balance um and it looks very stylish that way um it's just a little bit more of a stylized look it's clearly i think he hired somebody to style him uh his his suits generally also fit very well um and my guess is that he just doesn't want to deal with different combination of outfits all the time.

6:36And this allows him to stick with a singular look and look pretty good in public life. Yeah, it kind of feels like an upgrade from Zuckerberg's whole hoodie situation. And I think a lot of people, and by the way, none of this podcast is an ethical evaluation of these people. This is aesthetic. But Zuckerberg, for example, was doing it very clearly because it was easy. And I think people underplay how much of that goes into the fashion of these tech entrepreneurs. Yeah, I think it's interesting to couch this in the history of kind of the impact the tech industry has had on fashion, or men's fashion specifically.

7:18I mean, if you think of basically post-war era in the United States, the suit has been kind of declining since the 1960s and 70s. the suit became too tied with the establishment. And after kind of student war protests, freedom movements, and the Watergate scandal, people really did not want to be associated with the establishment. So after the Second World War, slowly people started to shed the suit and started to take on different types of casual wear, often casual wear that represented the working class. But I think there was a major shift starting in the 90s after the tech boom and the rise of Silicon Valley kind of billionaires, essentially.

7:58It wasn't just that the suit was no longer desirable. It's that another form of fashion became very desirable. And that fashion was the kind of like hoodie, jeans, uniform that Mark Zuckerberg specifically ushered in. And it was desirable in the sense that it signaled a certain kind of new meritocracy to say that we don't hew to the kind of traditionalism of industries back East. We're in California shaking up the economy, and the only thing that matters is your skills. You know, SBF basically adopted this kind of ethos. He looked pretty, you know, he did not dress very well. and I think part of that was this act to say I am so in the world of intellectual thought and coding and I only care about meritocracy that I can't spare a single thought to how I dress but in reality this uniform this hoodie and jeans uniform especially in the tech industry became its own kind of norm such that it wasn't just that people didn't care about fashion It's that dressing a certain way signal that you are part of the group, part of the crowd.

9:17And now we see that the original people who ushered in that ethos are actually taking, I don't want to say, you know, they're not, Mark Zuckerberg is not transforming his look, but at least since the fall of last year, he certainly has taken a slightly larger interest in his look and he's transforming his look a little bit. He's looking a little bit more stylish. and I think that that signals a naturally significant change in how the tech industry thinks about fashion and then also how that is impacting the larger cultural space. Yeah, I didn't really think about it but Zuckerberg, he is kind of, he's dressing like a man dressed up as a 90s rapper at times but he seems to be paying more attention to the quality of clothes at least like it look what he is wearing looks nicer it hangs on him better versus feeling like and i admit before this call i didn't really think about how performative the i'm not really trying look is but it seems like he's trying now and i wonder if that is trying to signal a shift in the industry at least with him you know i'm not really quite sure what is his deal um there have been multiple articles written about his style for a while it was rumored that all of his t-shirts were, his gray t-shirts were from Cuccinelli and they bought them from Wilkes Bashford in San Francisco.

10:37I can't remember the price of the t-shirts, but it was rumored that he was spending something like a thousand or$2 ,000 on hoodies and like$700 on t-shirts. That was published again somewhere. And I want to say it was maybe the cut, but afterwards,

10:54Mark Zuckerberg's team reached out to the writer to clarify, to say that he does not in fact buy all of his hoodies from Wilkes-Bashford, and that he did buy one once, but then just never did again. But he listed the names of where he gets his clothing, and they were pretty kind of, I would say, in-the-know brands. Not super fashionable, but relatively in-the-know. So he named Todd Snyder, Buck Mason, John Elliott, which is very in-the-know. I think some other brands that escape me at the moment. But these brands essentially are very rarely sold in just one store. So I thought he was working with a stylist.

11:38His team denies that he works with a stylist. But the difference of his clothes is that they are a little bit more in conversation with what's trending at the moment. So if you actually go to his Instagram page, I think his Instagram handle is Zuck, you'll see that starting in let's say like October or November of last year his wardrobe dramatically changed so before he wore pretty kind of standard t-shirts jeans sometimes a sweatshirt and the cut was pretty basic the shoulder seam sat on his shoulder bone you know like slim straight jeans it's a very very basic kind of look but then starting in October and November, you start to see the cuts change.

12:22He wore a drop shoulder seam. When he wore long sleeves, the sleeves would kind of stack a little bit around his wrist. What else was he wearing? He was obviously, he adopted a gold chain, which was recently written about, I think, in the Wall Street Journal and even Slate. And I think it just demonstrates a little bit more attention paid to the idea of a silhouette. And yeah, I think he looks better for it. So for our listeners and also me, define exactly what a silhouette is when you think of one as a person buying clothes. So there are two aspects when you're buying clothes. There's fit and there's silhouette.

13:02Fit is, I think, a very, you should think of it in very narrow terms. So to give an example, when you are, let's say, buying a button-up shirt, If you can't button up the shirt, it doesn't fit. If you're buying a suit jacket and the collar lifts from your neck, even when you're not moving, it doesn't fit. If you are buying pants and you can't button the pants, they don't fit. Silhouette is slightly different. Silhouette is the idea that if you take away all of the details in the outfit and you were just to think of the outfit in terms of shapes, think of it as an outline, that is basically the silhouette of the garment so in that sense sometimes um you know when people see like pants that are very cropped they say oh well those don't fit not necessarily sometimes pants are designed to be very cropped and that's part of the silhouette um sometimes sleeves are meant to stack around the on the wrist it's just part of the look um when you say stack what do you meme.

14:04Sorry. So if you're wearing a very long sleeve shirt, for example, if you go to a bespoke tailor, to give an example, and you're just to get a basic shirt made, they would design the shirt in such a way that the cuffs stay stationary on your wrist, even when you move your arms. So that means that the sleeve length is a little bit longer than your actual arm. Otherwise, Otherwise, when you move your arms, the cuffs would ride up on you. However, some designers, such as John Elliott, I'm trying to think of some other, Barain is another designer that does this, probably Rick Owens, I assume, because he does these very long drapey silhouettes.

14:48The sleeve is so long that essentially you get a lot of stacking. The material ends up stacking around your wrist. And it's just part of the look. It doesn't have to be that clothes fit only in one singular way. Silhouette allows you to think of an outfit in terms of shapes and take a little bit more creativity.

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18:58of, oh, you want to be a big tough guy and fashion is not for tough guys. And I feel like it deprives them of something. It deprives them of something they could really enjoy. Like they, there are so many parts of the Valley that enjoy, I don't know, building composable software, putting together different pieces to make the architecture work. Yeah. The idea of doing so aesthetically is somehow feminine. It just feels like a loss for them. Yeah. I am a strong believer that you don't have to pay attention to clothes or you don't, I think people are generally aware of clothes to some degree. I think more than they'd like to.

19:28But I don't think anyone has to take a great interest in their wardrobe. And I'm a very strong believer that you should never judge a person's deeper, more important inner qualities based on their dress. But I do think that if you, I think of dress as sort of like eating. Like I have to eat to survive and I have to dress to go outside. And if I have to do these things, you know, I think it's nicer to eat a tasty meal versus boiled potatoes. And I think it's nicer to wear something that makes me feel good versus something that makes me feel bad. Something that makes me feel happy versus something that adds nothing to my life.

20:05And buying those items, if you're really deep into it, like it's basically a core part of my life, then certainly it can take a lot of time, but it doesn't have to take a lot of your time. And if you just buy things that you like and make you happy, I think that just adds something to the beginning of your day. Yeah. And it's something to enjoy about your persona. And a lot of these people are quite focused on their identity as well. And one of the reasons I had you on here is I've got into clothes recently. It's a crazy way to word it. But the idea of being able to dress yourself in a way that makes you feel good about yourself is fun.

20:40And I think that societally, especially, well, definitely with men, there is this push away from it. But it also, I'm glad you mentioned what you did there. It isn't about necessarily putting a ton of attention in. It's feeling good about what you're wearing. And the only time I've really thought of this happening in the Valley at scale, are you familiar with American giant hoodies? Yeah. So there was this weird long period, like a year or two when everyone wanted one, they were like actually quite hard to get. They were these very heavy hoodies. And that was the only time I think there's been like a known aesthetic discussion in the Valley.

21:15And it's something I think everyone could enjoy. yeah I mean a hoodie is a perfect example I like camber camber American John also makes good hoodies I'm not uh knocking them camber is another one that makes these very stout hoodies um yeah I like hoodies and I think when you put I I dislike really thin hoodies that kind of cling to your body and I like a thicker kind of roomier hoodie and that's just personal preference if someone likes the thinner hoodies that's fine too I just think when you are paying attention to these things um you know i don't i don't know when you walk around you feel a little bit better when you see yourself in the mirror you like how you look you feel a little bit more confident um i think of it just like it's just like cooking you know you could eat boiled potatoes but you know you could also throw some seasoning in and it will taste better so yeah so actually that this is a good question how can you dress like a hoodie for example and look fashionable and feel fashionable is probably the wrong word what's a good fun way to dress with a hoodie i guess is what i'm asking so i'm i sort of feel that when we talk about aesthetics in this sense um there is one aesthetic that most people agree looks good and that tends to be aesthetics that are part of the hegemonic culture so the suit for example most people when they see a man in a suit they if the suit is assuming it's cut well and it you know fits well and all of these things They usually say, oh, that person looks good.

22:42Right. And it's sort of like how received pronunciation, even if you dislike the hegemonic kind of role that it plays, everyone recognizes that like, oh, yeah, that's like the hegemonic, you know, way of speaking and it sounds good. Once you break out of whatever is hegemonic, then you get into all these niche territories. And there are going to be a lot of people that don't like how something sounds or how something looks. And that's the same with, you know, pronunciations of regional kind of dialects. So when I think of hoodies, I personally like when a hoodie leans into a very classic workwear look.

23:21So that's like raw denim jeans, olive fatigues. If you're wearing chinos, then I think it's better if it's the kind of like tougher, more rugged chino styled after the mid-19th century army chinos that were issued to U.S. vets. versus the very kind of like business casual look. And then, you know, like service boots, blundstones, for a jacket, if the weather allows you to wear both a hoodie and a jacket, then trucker jackets, bombers, chore coats, like anything that seems rugged. Double knee Carhartt pants also go really well with hoodies. But again, recognizing that once you leave the world of hegemonic aesthetics and culture and all of these representations, there are a lot of people who say, oh, well, you know, there's a lot of judgments about someone's class and respectability based on whether or not they are conforming to these notions, which I don't adhere to.

24:18But I think aesthetically, that kind of like rugged working class look with a hoodie looks really good. And there's nothing about a look like that that has to be schlubby. And I think that that's what people associate it with sometimes. True. Although I don't have a problem with looking schlubby. I think you can be schlubby and also be stylish. There are ways to wear sweatpants cool, though I've yet to work them out. And as far as Jensen's look goes, he's mostly just looks like jeans, jeans, leather jacket and black shirt, right? Yeah, there are a couple of people who have adopted his look and you can kind of do easy comparisons to see why his works better.

24:58So when you look at Jensen Huang, if you pull up photos of him and you can also compare his look to Sequoia partner Sean McGuire. Sean McGuire wears actually pretty similar outfits. He wears black leather jackets, black tees, and black jeans. But his jackets just don't fit as nicely. They're a little bit baggier. They don't have like, you know, it's fine for a leather jacket to be baggy, but his does not look baggy in an intentional, thoughtful way. It's just kind of like a limp jacket that hangs on him. And then when you look at Jensen Huang, There are very strong angular lines that just make him look better, for lack of a better word.

25:39And yeah, I think Jensen just happens, I assume, because of his immense wealth. I assume he just, you know, hired a stylist to help him with this part of his life. When you look at early photos of him, he dressed as a typical kind of tech nerd, like polo shirts, chinos, jeans. It just didn't look very stylish. But in this way, he looks great. I will say that there was a moment, maybe like 10 years ago and still somewhat today, where you saw a woman in professional spaces ditching tailored jackets, meaning sport coats, suit jackets, blazers and the like, and substituting them for black double riders.

26:23And this was right around the time that black double riders started to become a fashion trend. And what is a black double rider? A black double rider is, so there are two main types of motorcycle jackets. There is a style called the cafe racer. That's a single, I don't know if it's called a single breasted, but you can think of it in terms of a single breasted as it's a, the zip enclosure goes up and down the center of the body, usually has a band collar, meant to fit very tight on the body. And then the double rider is what you think of when you think of Marlon Brando in The Wild One, think of shot perfectos, and has an asymmetrical zip.

27:01And usually a D pocket on one side has lapels. and in I would say like in 2014 2015 when Eddie Slimane was appointed creative director at Saint Laurent he's he and Kanye actually popularized the black double rider as a fashion piece and they made it from being strictly a utilitarian motorcycle garment and turned it to fashion piece by kind of making them out of softer lambskin leathers so that was kind of clear that the person was wearing it for style and not for just like utilitarian purposes. And it was popular among fashion conscious men, but it was especially popular among women who were seeking an alternative to a tailored jacket.