The State of Tech Journalism with Kylie Robison and Mike Isaac

51:23Yeah, and I was nearly delayed due to thunder in Vegas. I don't know, but also this feels like a situation where the tech media is going to have trouble covering it because it's so complex. Yeah, it could look. Yeah. I bowed out early this morning. Yeah. I don't know. No, I mean, I do think that's where tech reporters, if they're super into it, can shine. And I don't think cybersecurity reporting is as much of a specialty at mainstream publications. It's like random, like the guy Brian Krebs, who's his independent dude who used to work at The Post, but now is just a hardcore security researcher guy who has his own blog and everyone in the security industry trusts him, basically.

52:06and like but yeah like that i mean for media does it yeah yes who's great joe cox joe is awesome uh so like you there's a version of this that could shine but i i think you're i'm very curious there are already like things blaming well actually you might have a different take on this there are things that are blaming microsoft that are uh there was like a headline that was like microsoft fucks up the whole world or whatever right right and like technically it wasn't their fault but your your position is ultimately it is their fault yes because they microsoft runs windows but also the reason that crowd strike managed to fuck up so much is because microsoft could have built this themselves and indeed have a competing product to falcon and there is a whole exhaustive explanation for this but it kind of sucks and they were like we could save money just giving to this other giant public company who was only worth$89 billion.

53:05And ultimately it's both of their faults. But this is a situation where... What was it I was reading the other day? We just had him on the show. An economist called Darren Asimoglu. I'm probably saying his name wrong. Out of MIT. Just interviewed him. I should know it better by now. It's been a long day, Darren. But he said that there should be criminal prosecution for CEOs. And I actually fully fucking agree. I know this sounds crazy, but if you break half the world's computers you should go to fucking prison satya in cuffs today hot take do i have sounds here no i'm only 50 joking because if your direct decisions and neither i know both of you don't want to touch this with a i can talk about it in an abstract but also just giving you making it clear don't worry i can say the crazy shit but it feels like there aren't and their Ron's argument is not put them all in chains.

54:01It's these consequences should exist. Yeah. Consequences should exist. And the lack of them is why these things keep happening. Because, okay, an FTC fine that fines Facebook$4 billion is bad for the homogenous lump that is meta. But it isn't like Mark Zuckerberg has any fear there. And it was pretty good when he had to apologize to the family and stood up in court. But I don't think that's a real consequence. It's slightly embarrassing for a man without feelings. And it's just, Satya Nadella should have a criminal inquiry here. There should be an actual Department of Justice investigation into this with both CrowdStrike and Microsoft.

54:42There will not be. I'm 100 % sure there might be a Senate hearing if we're lucky. But it's all of these CEOs, they operate in this weird kind of bubble where, oh, it's a corporate thing. We don't get angry at people for corporate things. But if I went around because I was the Flash, I assume, and smashed every 500 ,000 computers with a big crowbar, if they could catch me, but I'm the Flash, they couldn't, they would put me in jail. I don't know. I'm talking about the wrath from Spider-Man. I'm mixing up my Marvel and DC right now. But nevertheless, it's like this person who smashed a bunch of computers would go to jail.

55:18Right. But the person whose direct decision making was the reason that all of these computers went down, they're fine. and it's like it feels like that needs to happen there needs to be some regulation of this but also where are the consequences it's why Sam Altman's accumulated all this power Steve Jobs, horrible man but the crimes he committed well the California DA came after him for welfare that was a form of consequence and it was extremely effective he went from being a deadbeat father to a shitty one which is progress for Mr. Jobs and it's just what I'm very much trundling towards is it doesn't feel like anything's going to change as a result of this.

56:00Right. I think that's right. I think that the fines point is really important because I think they just price it in to their like budget now. Yes. There was a great Times article about training data and how these like meta executives in their boardroom were like we that was so good. I talk about it all the time. Have you seen this? I have not. These meta executives in their boardroom or wherever They were like, we need training data and we don't care if we break the law because we need to be first. And it's so explicit. It's like, we don't care. It's priced in. We need to be first and we don't care if we're stealing content, which is crazy.

56:37And I will say this. That's where the Times did their job the best. That was a really great article. But the fact I didn't read it is my fault. But also that should have been fucking CNBC TV every day. That should have been a bigger story. the fact that these companies can operate not just without concern for safety but basically being like oh it's not a fine it's a fee yeah it's insane but if mark zuckerberg could go to prison i mean that wouldn't last a day more i do think a lot of the firm i i have uh frustrations just because of how i wonder how deep you can go in a mainstream publication on pretty technical stuff before losing people and like even like i've uh i've been super interested in the open source debate which is like you know in short just like should all the code for these things be out there or not some people believe it's very dangerous some people are i think that's over exaggerating it i don't uh i don't know which one is right honestly by the way is why i've not done an open source episode right i don't know and i know you'll get so mad at me yeah well it's yeah and like i find that whole thing very interesting and like i've been trying to write about it a lot but like i'm like a lot of this shit is very dense and very um and hard not just for and there's no like actual answers to a lot of it and trying to like get that out to a mainstream audience while uh saying here's why it's important here's why you should care about it here's why you should read this article in the first place i think gets stopped a lot of the time totally uh compared to some things that might be easier to grasp.

58:19I don't, you know, and that's not to insult the general public. It's just sort of like these things that require a lot of attention and reading just to like break into where the argument starts. Totally. Does that make sense? I've, I've been cut. I don't know how many times from writing articles because they're too technical or, and a thing I've had to do lately, which is so funny. I'm like, okay, if it's really highly technical or just kind of a waste of space, like tokens, How much does this model cost for input-output tokens? And I didn't include it in a Verge article recently, and the comments were like, well, how much does it cost?

58:52And I was like, goddammit, guys. And so I replied. I was like, I will add it next time. But who cares about the tokens? Anyways. I actually see where the readers are coming from. If they want it, I want to deliver it to them. But if they don't want it and it takes up space in their mind and they can't comprehend the material, then it's not helpful. So figuring that out for readers can be hard. Well, so as someone, the average better offline listener is like most of their days taken up like holding people up at gas stations, stealing catalytic converters, stuff like that. But then they listen to the podcast.

59:23And these people, I'm so sorry. But what I've found is because my listeners are, because of I think iHeartRadio, because of the way they, is I get a lot of people who aren't the traditional listeners. And I do love them. And you don't steal catalytic converters unless you do. and shout out them shout out to the the wrong ones of cadmium but it's but it's um it's what i'm finding is that people actually want things explained more even the technical stuff robert evans sophie lichterman wonderful people who run call zone their whole thing is like break it down more whatever you think is too simple go simpler totally and i think the people in the media for good reason overestimate how difficult something is to get and i because when you start explaining stuff in plain english like tokens for example very confusing and obfuscated things but it's just isn't it just one token yeah it's a word exactly a character so it is it's it is very simple but how many times do i explain that per article every time i'm like these you know it's it's kind of a it's like algebra that you have to do when you write so many of these articles if if the audience wants me to do it that's you know that's what i told them i will do it but it's you know something weinberger told me he's like if you can't explain it simply then you don't understand it you know and i think about that all the time because i feel like i see that all the time with tech reporters no shade is that like you're saying something really complicated probably because you don't understand it and that's fine but um it's really it's really hard to break these complex topics down early days of the newsletter i'm just gonna admit that definitely happened i did that when i was a young reporter i still am a young reporter but still it still though it's and i think it's because this media is kind of hard in tech you do actually have to understand a lot of shit yeah like especially with the generative ai side and it's funny because as much as i bang on about people not doing it right it is extremely annoying to explain yes every single time it feels like you have to include so much context and it's like when is this helpful for the reader and not kind of like uh x formerly twitter all the readers were like please just stop saying formerly twitter all right stop my epic based website please stop um stop uh dead naming i do feel like it's it's very um I think there are different challenges.

1:01:45okay like i'll explain it just in terms of like the times challenge which is like who are you trying to reach who is reading this uh what is the like format for what you're writing sort of thing and like i i like to what you're saying i definitely don't i think readers are can be smart and curious about what uh what's happening in the world and i don't think treating them like idiots is the right way to go i do think it's like how do you present that in a way that doesn't either derail the story you're trying to tell or make your story three times longer than it might need to be or whatever which i think um as like a tangent like length is often equated with quality which i don't think is always the case yeah oh i think in the media industry like someone's like we dropped a 5 000 word piece and i'm like yeah i think that could be like a 2 000 word piece to read that but like and that's not always the case but like i i just think that you can probably do it in different like formats or different like story packaging ways that um that i don't know that and but it's like a challenge for me constantly because i'm like all right who am i talking to am i talking to someone in new york who has never uh used a computer or am i talking to like someone in the valley who's like don't explain this to me for the 15th time and i don't know every time I don't explain something one of the listeners I assume in between holding a knife to a granny yes will be like you didn't explain that clearly enough and actually I like that I like explaining it because also this whole thing about word counts I do not have that problem with my newsletter I put out an 11 ,000 word newsletter just like go at it but also people get so angry when they're like Jesus Christ Well, the funniest one was I did like a 4 ,000 word one and someone sent me an email being like, yeah, that was too long.

1:03:42And the next one was 11 ,000 words and I emailed it to them. Jesus Christ. I love your relationship with your audience. I know. They're going to steal your grandma. Your knife-wielding audience. Yeah, he was planning to bomb a bank. He was just like, ah, I'm stopping. 11 ,000 words. Quickly. Yeah, this held me up. your generative ai thing was a great soundtrack to me chasing a man down the street with a hatchet i'm so sorry i know you guys aren't all criminals just some a large majority maybe but it's funny because you you've really crystallized the problem here which is what the fuck does the tech media actually do like what is the actual job here and it doesn't even feel like the various balkanized outlets no can i say what i think it is i don't know i am the most junior person in this room let me say you're extremely good thank you but i think like you do more work than i do you guys but i think like what i want to do is bring information that they want or didn't have like love a good scoop or like look i'm giving you information you've never seen and i want to give it to you in a way that's like that's helping you understand the world better and that's kind of why i joined the verge too because they have like crazy multimedia team and i really i really love podcasts because it's an easy way for me to consume stuff and i think there's a younger generation who is not consuming stuff like you know 5 000 words uh so like however you can get that information to people to help them you know whether it's podcasts or you know newsletters any of that i think that's our job yeah yeah oh i was i like i fully agree i think the thing that i really enjoy too is just um like it makes me feel good when someone who may be like intelligent but unfamiliar with a topic came away from a piece that i wrote and says that was interesting i probably wouldn't have read about that before but like now i like even if i don't get into it anymore i enjoyed reading about that yeah you know and like that's ideal for me just in some form of like why are we doing this why are we doing this yeah and i think it can be really corroded by so many things money and uh egos and like any other business and that's what i think we see like kind of that pressure at the top for a lot of us journalists and maybe why they're really tired but i think you know the like best journalists really just want to do their job for the reader the best that they can you know it's not but it's not easy and we're tired we need more fucking nerds we do need more nerds I agree with that we need more little goblin freaks like myself get the goblins out I don't know about that

1:06:28and it's enough about my first advice but nerding out on this stuff is good it's just like you understand the topic you want to get in the weeds of it that's a good thing but also my list that's in between brewing poisons they love it though further and further crimes being explained of your audience no but in all serious my non-criminal listeners and indeed some of the criminals they like the fact that so my last episode that went out and it's a weird timeline when I'm recording this but the episode that I think really changed my show was did you read this paper chat GPT is bullshit no there's this paper by these three academics in Glasgow called ChatGPT is bullshit, but it's based on the Frankfurtian definition from on bullshit, where it defined bullshit as...

1:07:17Oh, I remember that. And so I could not remember what the definition is, just bullshitting myself, I guess. And I get on the call thinking, this is going to be like three stodgy academics, and they're cracking beers, and they're having a good time, and we had the funniest chat for an hour. And I came out of that being like, it's one of the best episodes ever, but also, I think people want more of that in tech. everyone knows that open ai is fucking everything up everyone's gonna know about the crowd strike situation everyone's gonna know all of these things and they're all dominated by bad news good news weird news but we need to get back we need to get back to talking about the weird shit again because some of your earlier stuff kylie in business you were talking to weird random I loved it so much we went into weird communities and I think the tech right now is saturated by stories about everything and everyone for good reason by the way just with sympathy here there is everyone wants it everyone wants the traffic you have to write Kylie about the GPT-4 mini like everyone has to cover these things because it's your beam but it's getting in the way of the weird fun shit like I run a PR firm at day job and I write like 18 ,000 letter word I don't know can't speak newsletters every week I should not be the one finding the weird shit and talking to them I am though because I'm paid to but I just feel like there's so much magic in this industry there's so much as doom and gloom as I can be on this show the joy of sending a weird picture of some dumb shit I found on Twitter to someone yesterday it was this picture of Dr.

1:08:57Robotnik in a forklift it said you're too late son I'm forklift certified. And that made my day. Jesus Christ. There is still magic to the internet, and there's still fun, and people are fucking mad about the internet, but there's still such good in there. People are always saying, in between reading the Unabomber's manifesto, my listeners will say... I was like, where is he going with this one? What is the end result? I got close to saying something there. I'm like, I don't know if I want to... No, but in between various crimes, just going to summarize there um my listeners they also will say i want something positive and then i respond i'm sorry you need to find another download another podcast i'd say download all in but oh too far too far uh jason jason calicanis very damp um anyway dampness aside the positivity is there and i myself have found myself falling into this kind of i don't want to say doomerism because i think it's a fucking stupid term but there's doom and gloom that everything and we do need to cover these companies messing up but i think what the problem is and where my anger comes from i think you'll share this is all of the bad stuff's getting in the way of some really funny shit tiktok and all of this needless cynophobia you but like yeah it's like we've got to ban tiktok because they're stealing data they're like using data with all our users we only let american companies do that right right tiktok has given birth to some of the funniest and sweetest posts there is a growing community of zoos on tiktok and instagram where it's just they put like a camera on a spoon and they feed like worms to i've seen that these are good and it's like there is still magic there's still joy within this industry and i think that the return to blogging that i am so severously suggesting and the wider ed zitron empire that i dream of one day is genuinely like a return to this a return to this kind of i'm not seeing the movie um it's a return to this thing where we kind of need to stop mining this shit again we need to get back to finding the quirky little startups that might die but they're doing something interesting yeah the weird i think less the meme stuff i actually think people who just cover memes all day should get a real job sorry uh someone's gonna be angry at that i get it um but like it's less about internet culture and more just about the things being built there the cool thing the fact that you've still got a shit ton of open source software people who are just like one of my early joys in tech was playstation portable and the playstation vita and the homebrew communities on them oh hell yeah ray wong formerly of inverse got laid off is bullshit.

1:11:44Ray Wong's great. He was talking to me the other day about the PlayStation portable and hacking that thing. It was so much fun. The earlier iPhones with Cydia, the Helmbrimming community. Oh, sure. I remember Geohot has now become a very weird guy. I mean, he was before. Oh, yeah. He did like an autonomous car startup. Okay. But these, I feel like, are the more worthy stories than everyone pursuing the same thing. And I, again, you're in a weird position, I get. No, I do think that there's an element of i mean honestly there's corollaries in tech of like oh this person dropped this story or like this is uh i mean twitter and media probably played into it for a while but like a herd mentality mentality around what people should be caring about or writing about and like that actually like even though i have a i guess i have a beat but also like i get away with pitching a lot of non-beat stuff but i think the um the thing that maybe that keeps it interesting for me but also i think can probably help just my job and maybe my career is like trying to zag when other people are going after zigging or whatever editor line it's very is that a fuck oh god i sound awful now you wanna really like like genuinely watch where everyone's going and then like go pursue not just for the sake of it but because there's something interesting there you know and like i think that can really a it can distinguish you just from a career perspective but also just like find like shit that's different because people get tired of like reading the same yeah the same article from five different publications that are saying the same thing yeah no totally the reason i know ed and weinberger shout out is because i tweeted uh when i was in college i want to read about weird software developer culture shit and then he hired me that way and then that's when i wrote a bunch of i wrote a bunch of weird shit i wrote about furries that was awesome um yeah i i love those like niche communities oh my first article one of my first articles was about tech talk so it was just like all of these technologists or whatever it was what was this it was a bunch of developers who like software developers who make informational or like parody tick tocks about software development it was very okay tech talk yes tech talk like tick tock um it was actually in my pitch like when i was my my exam when you get hired anyways uh yeah i think that's really important to find those like fun stories oh and like i i i imagine everyone in this room and maybe if you are really into caring about tech probably there was probably at least some time and maybe still now like where you enjoyed being a part of it or enjoyed understanding it or right like i i definitely consider myself like a nerd at heart and like grew up building computers i don't know if i could do it now but like i used to and like it would i'm sure it is like i'm sure with like even more now with fucking youtubes the youtubes everywhere but uh paste is just that's what got me was that say again your thermal paste you could just get oh you could you huff it just like yummy but like there's there's has to be an element of like caring about this stuff enjoying this stuff like there's a reason why i still enjoy fucking around on the internet like like yes there's i have criticisms of maybe like the homogenization of how products develop because other companies are looking at how this person is doing it and we should have to do it like that but you can still have fun on there and you can still find stuff and like I agree that like trying to find more of that is not a bad thing.

1:15:33Totally. I think the Times has got to bring back Bits. Dude that's where I started. Do you know what Bits is? Oh dude I joined in 2014 and we used to have long before 10 years in June it was 10 years um i'm a millennial so i should be hopping around jobs but um it's good 10 years i know i know now i can't leave but i but we it was a blog it was literally the times had a tech blog called bits and it was it was kind of a function of like everyone's blogging at the time and like you know we need to be blogging and i'm not sure they got rid of it because i'm not i don't really know why the exact reasons probably because it doesn't really fit their yeah i think now i think now it's like and even now they're still in like a transition period where they're like we do either huge heaves or now they do like live blogs on like the big breaking thing they do and like the sort of in between sort of things are going away is what i'd say the like yeah 500 to 700 word articles they don't care about as much and there's probably internet traffic reasons for that there's probably just like what readers want from a times article but bits was amazing because it was a blog where i could just dump random shit that i that we found interesting and bits and the funny thing is i'm sure one of the arguments would be well real reporting that's where we get right right except if you remember and i do because i'm 900 years old i'm like i think mike's age there was this little guy called Evan Spiegel who Nick Bilton in a remarkable act of journalism wrote about for the first time in bits one of the first Snapchat articles was in bits and it's like guess what when you have that flexibility when you have a bit of fun with it you find weird little nepo baby freaks who make insanely unprofitable software being an arsehole here obviously but that is an example I think where The Verge can do well.

1:17:38The Verge has also had one of my favorite articles of all time, which is the one about the internet cables. Oh my gosh, yes. Yes, that was before I started. That was so good. You didn't get back to me when I mean very hurtful, very unfair. Who wrote that? I actually forget his name and I will now look it up while I'm talking. But stories like that, but that one's slightly different because that was a heavily reported piece. That one was so good, yeah. But it was good because it was different. It's a bit weird. Yeah. I want, and I hope someone does, a story about an airport, like a regional airport that got shut down by CrowdStrike.

1:18:09Oh, yeah. Like something like that. Free story idea right there. Free story idea. That is actually pretty good. That is pretty good. Go for it, please. Because it's like, that is what, the big failure, I think, of the tech media, the biggest is assuming that tech is not, and Taylor Lorenz made this point as well, that tech is not real life. That it's not a human problem. Yeah, that it's just a thing that happens. The internet is over here and the real people are over here. Yeah, for sure. when it's not been that for like 15 years and it's just stories like this i think like the the free story idea i'm giving away because i do not have the time but like a regional airport got fucked up because of a windows update that is the real go talk to the humans yeah exactly and also this is the practical implications of this we talk about chat gpt or what have you but like when you get down to it what does this actually do for real people what's an actual fucking thing happening yeah and i want like i want bits back yeah like tell my boss bring bits back hey who's your boss i'll email them now actually don't talk to my please god dear mr times that's right i have been so mr new york times that's it with your news prepper fuck shit no i it's it's frustrating as well and the joy of this show is the I get to do a bit of that but even then I don't get to go I don't have the time if they paid me like three million dollars a year which is what I demand yeah sure no but if I had more time it would be like sending people out to do that it could happen here which is a sister show of Better Offline I guess we're a sister show of it they do great work because they go out and find these weird fucking stories I want more of that about tech I want more of the weird shit because we already know how bad Google is and I'm going to keep doing it sorry everyone but it it feels like everyone being tired is the problem and also not talking about any specific outlet but gearing coverage towards conferences oh sure has become the other problem it's like well if we do this we'll get the guy to speak on stage and say the same thing he said in the press release and then we will get the money the writers will not get the money because that's not how this works but they will do the labor and perhaps i'm saying that the people who run these publications haven't written a fucking word of meaning in maybe 10 or 15 years or maybe their entire lives and perhaps these publications need to be run by people who actually fucking write stuff instead of these goddamn management consultants who don't know what the fuck they're doing but that's just one thought i had well i feel like the the it's funny because there's there's like models that there there's the thing about media now that i feel like is being hollowed out is like either there's the big players who have a very specific um model of like okay these are our reporters these are our opinion people reporters go out and do this there's a lot of overhead in that because reporting is expensive and you're not going to produce for weeks or a week or whatever and then you have um the one or two person shops or whatever on sub stack or something that can riff but like you either a you need to produce like regularly to live you know and and you don't have the bandwidth to like fly to to wyoming and talk to you know the airport that got fucked or just like or it's not your thing and like you do a different sort of thing and i'm like it would be ideally and i think the times even did a push for this where they were doing like a newsletter when everyone when everyone in media was doing like a newsletter thing the idea is like alright now we can sort of everyone gets subscribed to a newsletter I don't know where we like net out there you know like I just don't know it was like a classic manager who doesn't write thing it's just like why is this newsletter big because it's a newsletter damn that's so smart let's pay a million dollars in salaries to people to do the same thing they're already doing which we were already emailing people I can get a million dollars to send emails?

1:22:17No, just the aggregate spend there. And I think the problem is that it's, I go back to my point I just clunkily made, which is like, the people at the top are not fucking writing. Like Nele Patel, whatever problems I may have. This is what I was going to say is that when I came to The Verge, as you're going to say, like I did not expect, he is like really in the newsroom and he is writing all the time. We have this little thing that says, someone published an article. This many articles have been published today, and he is always on there publishing stuff, which I've never had that in a newsroom, which is crazy.

1:22:48Good for him. I know. He's a unit. He is, and I have my problems with him, and one day we'll hash it out. He's got to come on. I know. I would love that. He's yet to email me back either. I don't know why. It could be the things I say. In all seriousness, The Verge is actually a great example of, yeah, the top person should be writing all the time because if you're not writing how the hell do you know what writing is what do you don't even know what good writing is you don't even know where you can't even have the same struggles as a reporter and when a reporter i don't know could be talking about anyone says something very rude in your publication you fire them the next day you for pissing off tech bros could be talking about anyone you're not building solidarity and you're definitely not supporting actual reporting yeah the verge and vox are fire at this sorry to say gen z terms but they're really really good they're bussing i knew it the moment it came out of my mouth i was like oh god don't worry when i say it it sounds worse no cap the verge is on fire um but i think like that's that's why i came is because they let you write weird shit they give their weird writers like all the bandwidth to do whatever they want and nila is in the trenches with you writing he actually was the one who pointed me towards um the google glue story he was like this is fucking crazy and it was like my first week and he's just got like a glue story i'm sorry oh when uh really bad at reading the news that's fair enough stay out of it we don't it's too much you just write it um you remember google ai overviews yes they if you said oh the paint the pizza thing yes fuck yeah that was so good glue story and that was like and then katie ate one yes that was fucking awesome um but yeah uh so having someone who's like in the trenches with you is so cool because you get to learn from them and he can tell me like hey like there's a story over there i know it you know it's one of the reasons weinberger was so good yeah he didn't write once and i'm gonna we're just shouting out matt weinberger the entire show by the way he did write he did yeah a little he didn't write enough one of the greatest he was running so much which is a great tech story but also a classic weinberger story is he did a review of the latest madden at the time yep without understanding the rules of football so the whole thing is just being like okay why is this very funny but honestly i actually think that kind of stuff's extremely it's good it's good i would i would love to like get like a line cook chat gpt and just record what their thoughts like someone just disconnected for whose regular job is a real job yeah which actually like sucks and like involves them having to deal with people like not like a pretty good idea actually but again free ideas the whole show i would love like a we're currently in a big studio and i would love like a tech like a tech radio show and i could live in here be very damp keyword damp in felons no cap but it's and also just railing as in the side by the way the internet cable story is josh D-Z-I-E-Z-A.

1:25:58I will put that in the notes as well. Incredible story. And also scary that the internet is run by a bunch of cables. Good break. I feel like what we're discussing here though is the same thing of we're discussing how people actually interact with tech and I feel like too much writing is about how people, they think people interact with tech. Like we're writing for tech enthusiasts. rather than how people experience the world. One thing I've been thinking about, and I don't know how to fucking do this podcast is, and by the way, the listener, the listener who keeps bugging me about this, I'm singling you out without naming you.

1:26:38What crime do they commit? I was actually just thinking of one. Arsonist. Arsonist, there you go. The guy currently writing, no, no, no. No, no, no. It's a fair thing. They say I'm not critical enough of Apple. but the one story i want to do and i think this is one that everyone needs to be honest have you used the app store recently it's extremely bad it is so bad it's so very bad the apps that chart in some sections are just flat out dog shit ad filled nonsense the discovery on there is nakedly corrupt the people in the app store editorial fuck you if you're listening okay not really but no cap no cap um seriously the app store editorial people is so nakedly corrupt right now i don't mean fuck you please don't punish any podcast other than mine punish me but then they they just feed the richest people they're featuring popular things they feature popular apps like why do i need to feature facebook i'm actually gonna load this shit up right now i'm gonna find i hope i'm not wrong i'm gonna look like a real toss pot okay The top thing on here is Tor Monopoly Go's amazing destinations.

1:27:50Monopoly Go makes billions of dollars. Why is that what Apple is surfacing? That's weird. That's like a featured thing and not like a charting thing. It is the first thing when you open the app store. Yeah, interesting. Next, Amazon Music. Top apps right now. TikTok, Macs, Disney +, Snapchat, ChatGP, TikTok. Who uses Amazon Music? Next one, Tokuboka World. I went to one of their South by Southwest parties and saw Group Love there. That's my only expectation. The most useful part of Amazon Music. It was awesome. Yeah, the most useful part of Amazon Music is an offline thing. Next thing up is Tokaboka World.

1:28:25They make at least$100 million a year. Next one up, Squad Busters, which is a game by Supercell. Oh, I remember them. Hundreds of millions of dollars. Every single thing on here is just making the rich richer. The next is Bluey, which is literally worth billions. Isn't that a dog? I saw Bluey at a Clippers game. drunk off his ass leering at the cheerleaders they kicked him out for being too drunk didn't even make it to the half fucking anyway jokes about bluey side um that's a that's a real problem that is a real algorithmic problem that everyone is facing but everyone's kind of in the tech media for good reason folks in their open ai focused on ai ai ai ai ai it needs to be this when the real problems are sitting in front of us and those are the ones that people actually are affected by the In fact, Supercell is rich because Apple is helping them get rich because Apple wants 30%.

1:29:18Why not send that traffic to someone else? Send it to small developers. It's too much like hard work. And it pisses me off because, well, everything pisses me off, I guess. It pisses me off because it doesn't feel like the tech media is currently built to handle this. And I don't think it's even the fault of the writers. There needs to be an App Store reporter. How do we... What? What? They would, I mean, there's no... It's a$50 billion. There's no infrastructure. I mean, tell that to the media executives is what I'm trying to say. I'm not saying you're wrong. Yeah. No, what you're describing is the actual problem.

1:29:54Yeah. These executives don't want to invest in that. But if the argument is what's important, then this is important. It's more important than anything else. Like Google search, App Store, these are the things that matter. but it feels like the media is engineered towards clicks which is then engineered towards pleasing google who is currently fucking up the news media it's just we're in this weird cycle now and i don't even think real people so over it's really funny because i would always like very vociferously fight back against the like clickbait sort of um argument but like i don't i think it's harder to defend against these days because of how uh how traffic has declined and how like i do think metrics play a role across like every outlet has an seo person who is like paying attention to what is trending or whatever you know and i don't i don't think it's and i'll i will make the distinction that i don't think our outlet and i don't think most outlets are only driving traffic as the primary reason but i do think because like look you have a mission you of like a thing that your north star of coverage should be but like there is more awareness than there was 10 or 15 years ago of like what is happening uh traffic wise and what you should be thinking about and that's a real thing and you know what's also happening immediately after i stop talking you're gonna hear an advertisement and when you hear that ad you're gonna be like damn that is so thematically relevant to everything ed says that wasn't embarrassing to ed ed didn't feel really annoyed.

1:31:32Ed didn't make a specific rule on his Reddit so that people don't talk about it. That ad was so well placed and I, a new customer of this perfect company, will love it. So please enjoy this extremely relevant ad.

1:32:01The hassle of circling the block. Park smarter. Park faster. ParkWiz. Download the ParkWiz app today and save every time you park. This week on a very special episode of Health Discovered, we're taking a closer look at a condition that affects hundreds of thousands of men each year. Prostate cancer. I first found out about my cancer at the age of 45. Anything with cancer, you just think death sentence. In this episode, we'll explore the science behind detection, along with the practical steps men can take to protect their health. Listen to Health Discovered on America's number one podcast network, iHeart.

1:32:40Open your free iHeart app, search Health Discovered, and start listening. Mint is still$15 a month for premium wireless. And if you haven't made the switch yet, here are 15 reasons why you should. One, it's$15 a month. Two, seriously, it's$15 a month. three no big contracts four i use it five my mom uses it are you are you playing me off that's what's happening right okay give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch upfront payment of 45 dollars for three-month plan 15 per month equivalent required new customer offer first three months only then full price plan options available taxes and fees extra cmentmobile.com and we're back so the the whole traffic thing's funny because clickbait is not is part of it and actually i think bi's done really well with keeping clickbait going but actually doing good shit katie inatopolis she's actually found the the middle ground which is like straight up like clickbait but the inside so good but you like it right yeah like hmm copka actually has riffed on this before is like the the idea of like you made that headline for people to only click like you want people to be interested in your story like there's gonna be there is an art to it right it's not all thousand words and you know a couple words you got to figure that out totally yeah and i it's funny as well because i actually think the the tech media really needs to realize that other than chasing clicks it's like tech stories get a shit ton of traffic that alone should be a sign that there's magic to be found here and it's not from doing the same thing and it's from i think that there is a way of dressing up like software communities in a more interesting way.

1:34:16That's what I did for almost two years. That was my job, was talking about software developer communities, and it was rad. Yeah, I don't know. I think The Verge is actually the first time I've worked at a publication where there are no KPIs or traffic goals or subs goals. No, no. No one bothers me about that. So it's sick, yeah, because a lot of people experience that, and people get yelled about that. You could get fired over not reaching traffic. so I don't have to worry about that which is great and I think that's really healthy for writers I wish more writers had that experience but unfortunately like we're where we're at does the times have stuff like that no I mean like I think it's like general vibes right like if I fucking didn't put anything out in a month and whatever then I might get a phone call but like as far as I can tell or at least I don't get called about it but I don't I don't like I've never seen like a yeah exactly George Times I do think that like yeah I do think there's more attention paid to like metrics now but like and I oh god I'm just thinking back on like my super earliest days of writing and did they have screens back then where they showed like ranking author ranking I heard that when I first started journalism I was like what the You have a pterodactyl that used to do the typing for you and turn to you and go, it's a living.

1:35:46Mike is the same age as me. That's exactly. Sorry. I know, I get to be the resident old guy. But like it now, even then, you know, I was still having to churn out more. But now it's just gotten like 10 times worse. Like all the folks who, I won't like mention outlets, but like I just have colleagues or friends who work at different places. and have you have to do this many a week or like this is your quota and like and even when i was starting out it was like i had to do at least one a day which i could do when i was like 24 or whatever however old and now i'm 39 and i'm fucking i can't even think about yeah you know so like it's just a very yeah i don't know it's super depressing i'm trying not to complain about it too much i was in the trenches when i was in college so i would i was doing all my college classes and then i was also writing for bi and they have famously and well publicized very stringent goals about what you're supposed to reach and i was in the trenches but at least i was writing stuff that was really fun and also it was my first job in journalism so i thought that was the norm just just get them all through but i think like speaking to wise and the tech media getting stuff right they have really really really really rich and powerful people who own their company and then trickles all the way down to people breathing down your neck and you're like have you written 10 stories this week the messenger is a great example of this the poor messenger god i forgot all about that fucking company i forgot until just now you're not dead yet which is not an actionable threat i but the messenger is a great example i think of a problem that faces the tech media which is again the people making the publications aren't really the ones touching them finkelstein formerly of the hill 100 million dollars off selling the hill to i assume a private equity firm i did say in a previous episode i forget everything i say the moment i say it and it's it's frustrating but also at some point i think that the tech media could look more like a bunch of 404 medias i wish i think it's going that way because look the biggest fallacy of all of these tech pups is oh you can't do them profitable without a bunch of traffic fuck you You can make them super profitable if you don't have 50 people.

1:38:03If you have focused people. I agree with that. My grander dream is to turn newsletter into a thing where I just have a bunch of stringers, freelancers. Free idea for anyone to copy. You just have to be able to write 3 ,000 words in an hour, bitch. But it's... But nevertheless, it's... I think that that is where it's going. Because 404 has done probably the best internet culture reporting. I love them so much. It's so cool to get to see them succeed in the way that they have and just completely smash it and deliver the best fucking reporting. Sam Lee, Cole, Co-Blood, they're all fucking brilliant.

1:38:38And they're brilliant because they're all internet weirdos. Yes. I mean that affectionately. Yes. Well, the motherboard DNA. Yeah, exactly. Sarah, Derek, they all used to work in motherboard. And that was like, motherboard was one of the real good weird internet sites before Vice killed it. Corey Hike. yeah all those people at the top are stupid i wanted to be them so bad they're great me too super great no seriously like one of my heroes edward on gueso jr go ahead yeah he's a good guy i wish he wrote more i love his work but also editing another i don't know he's a logic i believe now um he's gonna be on the next better off live oh that's cool he's so cool that's rad but it's like guys like that having an opportunity at a place like motherboard is so good i want to see like more of these clustered publications because if you really look at the old school tech crunch i know people have fairly very negative views about michael arrington i'm not talking about him as a person because all of that sucks however the original days of tech crunch resemble 404 media so much more than they do tech crunch today in that it was a bun it was michael arrington and pete there's a big myth that it's like well tech crunch is very dry no it wasn't it'd be like my clowns are going you'll never believe who i saw at the the melt i forgot no the creamery there we go like a block or the ghost of it is a block from here and he would just like hang out they'd be like you'll never believe what i heard and it's great this is why i say gossip journals because this is what it is it's what it was in the old days like oh i've heard that insight partners is gonna do this insight partners is that one of the ivb yeah is it like one of the big vcs he'd hear some shit and like and that would be and even paul carl who i think's 30 but even he did the same thing sarah lacy but it's okay that's a bit mean she did some good shit but nevertheless she did a really good book actually the once you're lucky twice you're good you should read that it's that's the thing i'd be i shouldn't i need to learn way more about this old school oh yeah i mean i we've fought a lot over the years but she has should some of her reporting is really good but also this is what I my longer term vision I'm just saying it on the pod is I want to rebuild solidarity within the tech media because it's a very lonely industry everyone's very much an island even the Verge which I love the Verge podcast is the Verge people talking to the Verge people about Verge stuff 404 same deal I love 404 but the same deal and it's I feel like everyone's balkanized a bit I agree with that but also it will allow for delicious beefs and gossip and I think that people love that.

1:41:12I think people like, it's like, oh, you'll never believe, oh, they're angry at each other again. People love this shit. It's low stakes drama. Oh, you got the scoop on Grumbus? I had the scoop on Grumbus. You aggregated my Grumbus story. I just had this conversation today, actually. Oh, you got the Grumbus story? The Grumbus. I do think that we, it's like, journalists can be often very catty and insecure. That was like the biggest culture shock getting into this. I was like, fuck like this is like this is like like throwing elbows i feel like i got like literally elbowed in the teeth so many times by people i'm like fuck but it isn't yes sorry you were no no i i was more aggro i think when i was younger and i get it like i think i'm also like because i work at the times there's a whole weirdness around that and like people often with with good reason in the past like we didn't used to like not link a lot now i think we're way i will defend it yeah i mean i get it all the time but i think uh i was trained probably because i came up in blogging to like link and like credit and i think our desk is very good about it now but like everyone is just like i described this a lot like i feel like journalism today is a lot of like very insecure overachievers and everyone's kind of like looking over their shoulders and trying to compete and trying to like make their mark or whatever and i think getting your like i have a fucking ego but trying to get your ego that's why we're here yeah exactly help me try to tamp that down as much and just like keep it and also like people one thing i've tried to do even though it's hard is like people like really remember when you pay them compliments on a story like just doing a nice post saying like that was a great story i think it's a nice thing that's something i do a lot on this show because i'm a hater sure like i really am like i'm and it's easy to like shit on someone's stuff and then they fucking they'll remember that right like you can't do one you have to do like okay you can do just being nice i realize that is an option that i'll be taking it it's nice down here on the low road uh well you think i've gone lower i will but there is a degree here of like of course i'm like i will criticize jesus fuck that what up um but there's so much good there and i think that like 404 the reason i bring them up so much is they're the fucking like they are like i love sharing their work yeah i'm like defecto which i realize is outside of tech david roth oh he's great people like ray rato like you've got really like specialized reporters and that's sports i realized but that model of hey defined voices that people really love that love for who they are drew mcgarry covering shit People aren't going there just to hear about sports.

1:43:59They're going because Drew has a thought. Same with David. And I think that model in tech is something the Verge has done a good job on. I think they can go further. But it's something that was in bits. It was something that Farhad Manju did. I think that the Times, this is my personal view, I think that they can be ambivalent on personalities. Like, like, you know, in one way, like it serves them a lot to have columnists who like people will go for, you know, this is a different generation, but like David Brooks or Tom Friedman are these folks who have been coming there and drive a lot of traffic or talk to the president and like are important in some capacity.

1:44:43but i at the same time i think times folks or times people at the top are always like the the brand is is first right it's a new york times it's not totally mike isaac at the new york times or something right and like i do think there's a tension there but in this one thing i think have expressly said outwardly is like in an age of ai producing mountains of bullshit one advantage we might have is knowing that our reporters are people and explaining that they have expertise and like going into them so like i do think there's like a tension there i would love if they let us be a little more free but like that is the tension and i i we all see it and i think that's kind of what you give up for the times is what it seems like as the outsider it's like okay you want to work for the times you're gonna have to give that up and that's It's not just the Times.

1:45:36It's like, you know, a lot of the top publications, you're not going to have that voice because of what they do. It's different. What's funny, though, is I'm old enough to remember that this was the model. David Pogue at the New York Times. Eric Benderoff, I think it was, at the Tribune. Here, Arthur Bray, I think, at the Boston Globe. You had tech columnists, and they were insane. You still got, like, Jim Rossman, I think, at Dallas Morning News, mixing up with someone. Nevertheless, you have a few, but regional tech columnists used to get paid insane money. I've heard. There was a rumor that I think CNET tried to pay Nick Bilton a million dollars.

1:46:13I remember that whole cycle. I don't even remember how much it was. I've heard the Felix Salmon stories. This is passed down from older journalists to me through generations. Oh, the Fusion days. Oh, that was great. Wait, wait, what was this? We need to tell the audience. Oh, my God. Well, do you remember Fusion? does that i i remember like the logo uh well i mean you shouldn't because it was literally like a production of telemundo that wanted to do his tech company um palmy olsen or uh shit well there was a bunch of cash hill uh work there kevin roose worked there and what they did was um uh uh and they hired felix oh electric's magical so like what they did though was like come in and throw like obscene money at everyone i i fucking rue the day that i didn't try to get a job there because my salary would be like forex what it is nice but i work in dubai right right right but i think the rumor was i'm not gonna say exactly what it was but just there were rumors on how much people were getting paid yeah and we all should have done that grift and that the company went out of business like two years later no no they bought got bought by gizmodo which then fucking i don't even know what no gizmodo got bought by telemundo media is not this fun anymore fucking human centipede of shit that is the media industry again i will have drinks every city i'm in everyone will get drunk together and then everyone will be mad at each other and then we'll have stuff like this but it's i think it is partly also the remote work movement and i've only been a remote journalist which is crazy you've never gone to an office i will sort of but like i've never had a newsroom never oh that's a that's a bummer whenever i say that people who are journalists before covid are like that sucks i feel like also though that is somewhat romanticized though because oh you're because you're anti you're anti no it's not even a remote work thing it's just the newsroom at future publishing when i work there eat shit don't live in england anymore um future publishing there was there was just a mood of depression in there because it was depressing place to work run by arse wipes sure and then you go into the bbc one or the bloomberg one you're like okay i fucking get it like i would be oh yeah the bloomberg one sounds awesome but the bbc one at least the old one i haven't been into the new big tower oh god that's such energy to it beautiful and i feel like that it'd be cool if a tech newsroom existed like that it just never will just practically speaking but also i don't know if one i guess all things d kind of had one i mean we had like a we were like weirdly remote hybrid we had like a work space or something in soma but i think that like the what like look it's we are romanticizing it but i do like and i fucking work from home literally all the time but uh but uh my the thing that i miss about working at headquarters in new york was just like you walk around run into people bullshit and actually do sometimes come up with interesting things or share tips and whatever just because you saw someone.

1:49:14I do think there's value there. No, there is definitely. And I was going to say, Vox has a New York office. Business Insider does. Fortune does. I just have always lived in California my entire life. So I'm not moving to New York. Updating my prior class. The long-term Ed Heads, those recently released in the psychiatric ward, for example. That's where we met. and those people like they may remember i was very pro remote work and i still am yeah i've never been as anti office at all and there is like the reason i do these in studio ones is because remote is fine yeah but this is cool this is energetic we can see each other we can be focused i agree and i think the i do it's the the real dumb startup guy thing in my head's like we should have a co-working space for the tech media that's like a really good 2011 asked idea right well i think the thing that gets lost from like again i'm older than you and like i came up in like where remote work was not a thing like not really and like now i'm very much a remote person a lot of the time but like i do at least appreciate the like time that i had in but i think it means something very different when you're when you're younger in your career rather than you're older in your career and i forget that like i was in the times headquarters from 2014 2016 and that was super valuable for me because like just the whole like fucking facetime with who you should know or whatever thing is real you know and i will like again i'm like mr remote work but my first job was at pc zone magazine with future and as miserable as that place was it was because of the management yep not because of people like will porter and Steve Hogarty and people I worked with who were there to tell me to stop playing World of Warcraft during work.

1:51:02And then I would say to them, I've done all my work. And then they would say, no you haven't. And then I would say, yes I have, go check. And then they would be really pissed off and tell me to stop playing anyway. Jokes aside, having Will redline my shit in person broke my spirit. Oh, that's awesome. But actually it was really valuable because I then went and had coffee with Steve Hogarty who then said, he's right though and that also hurt but it was also the fact that i could go back to will and actually have a conversation about what the fuck he meant yeah he's a wonderful editor he genuinely like and having that experience and then kind of like having a moment being like oh my spirit but not having that on my own at home separated from the world yeah i actually think was quite valuable it's just i keep coming back to this solidarity thing i think it's just we have that solidarity i think like physical physical i i i have adapted as a journalist just fine i would have loved a newsroom that would be great but i adapted i went to tons of events i've met tons of and then i've also like reached out to like more established journalists a ton i'm like hey can i get your advice on this all the time and people my age i think like that i definitely have that as harsh as it is like especially in san francisco like for instance people on my beat rachel metz at bloomberg i see her at events we talk all the time like having those people who are more established who can be like hey like we we still have that i think but younger journalists have to know to reach out for that i guess it needs to be maybe it's more defined i'm just trying to find like an excuse to throw a party i think i would go to your party yeah the last time i saw mike was at a party actually there is a thing in december but let's wrap this up though so i've really enjoyed having you both here thank you so much mike where can people find you uh i work i mean i'm writing occasionally at the new york times where i work for my full-time job um and then on twitter but more on instagram too now just like google my name and then you can find on my show so i wrote a book which if i would love to plug uh it's called super pumped the battle for uber and uh if you don't like reading you can watch the show which is on netflix oh right on the show right on thank you very cool yeah i'll just say i love that show so much because i had such a huge crush on joseph gordon levitt when i was growing up and then i also didn't know travis kalanick was such a dick um that show is awesome thank you for watching jgl is also a lovely human being oh my god i love him so you you can be yeah doubly secure in your crush my only problem with that show was it felt like they cast the wrong guy as travis oh i know there's a guy who just looks exactly like travis kalanick who plays like oh yeah it was funny a lot of uber employees were like they should have kyle chandler as so good I ate that up you can find me on twitter at kyliebites I'm on threads at kylie.robison not robinson with an n in the middle no n and then I write for the verge full time about AI and tech stuff and you can find me of course on the Better Offline podcast ask your parole officer they'll allow you to listen to one podcast I'm so sorry I promise I don't think all of you are criminals I love you all I'm saying it like I love you all like the menu if you remember that don't know if they let you watch that but thank you so much for listening everyone betteroffline.com you'll then get the same liner that plays after every episode thank you for listening

1:54:53thank you for listening to better offline the editor and composer of the better offline theme song is Matt Ossowski You can check out more of his music and audio projects at matasowski.com. M-A-T-T-O-S-O-W-S-K-I.com. You can email me at ez at betteroffline.com or visit betteroffline.com to find more podcast links and, of course, my newsletter. I also really recommend you go to chat.wheresyoured.at to visit the Discord and go to r slash betteroffline to check out our Reddit. Thank you so much for listening. Better Offline is a production of Cool Zone Media For more from Cool Zone Media Visit our website, coolzonemedia.com Or check us out on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts

1:55:59Parking shouldn't slow you down. ParkWiz gives every driver a shortcut. Book ahead, save up to 50 % and skip the hassle of circling the block. Park smarter, park faster. ParkWiz. Download the ParkWiz app today and save every time you park. This is Lunchbox from the Bobby Bones Show. Toyota is moving toward a more sustainable future by giving you the freedom to choose from a full lineup of hybrids, plug-in hybrids, regular gas, and 100 % electric vehicles, including stylish cars like the Camry and Corolla, as well as efficient and spacious SUVs like the RAV4 and Grand Highlander. All backed by Toyota's reputation for reliability, no pressure, just possibilities.

1:56:41Visit buyatoyota.com for a great deal on efficient Toyota today. Toyota, let's go places. Residents at Brightview Senior Living Communities enjoy enhanced possibilities, independence, and choice. Brightview Dulles Corner and Great Falls offer vibrant senior independent living, assisted living, and memory care services through various daily programs, chef-prepared meals, safety and security, transportation, resort-style amenities, and high-quality care. Take financial possession of your apartment by December 31st, 2025 and save. Discover more at brightviewseniorliving.com. Equal housing opportunity.

1:57:20This is an iHeart Podcast.