Fyre Festival's Billy McFarland Dishes On Social Media Marketing, VC, and Prison

25:23So when I heard that six year number, I just didn't know how to reconcile it, you know, with the lifestyle that I had been living. And it just seemed like decades. And there's a scene in one of the documentaries, I think, where someone who knows you said you had asked them what jail was like. And you said basically like, I'm not going to jail. Did that happen? Like, why did that happen? I've heard about the scene. I've never seen the documentaries. so yeah i i don't recall that exact moment yeah were you once you got sentenced or even before still trying to like use the fire festival email list to try to get people to sign up for like vip tickets that weren't going to be delivered yeah for sure so i was on bail for a year and i received it all basically started the day we canceled fire festival i got a call from one of my investors saying i need this amount of money but this time or else quote you're going to be on the cover of the Wall Street Journal in handcuffs.

26:19And while I know I'd committed a crime, I couldn't really fathom I had broken the law. I knew what I did was wrong. I'd never anticipated this would be in jail. And that was like the wake-up call where it's like, oh shit, this is real. Out of desperation to try to raise capital, I was trying to do everything and anything, you know, while on bail to make good by that and continued to make stupid decisions that ultimately resulted probably in a longer jail sentence and yeah, and making the overall punishment way worse. That's crazy. Okay. I want to talk about your time in prison. So why don't we do that right after this?

26:53And we're back here on big technology podcast with Billy McFarlane. Billy, it's so great to speak with you. I appreciate you spending the time and speaking so candidly about what happened and sort of, we'll get into some of the things you're going to be doing in the future, but thanks for being here. And it seems like you're like sort of genuinely remorseful and like you've, you have come to terms with what happened. Yeah, thank you. I think serving four years in jail and 10 months of that in solitary was a wake-up call. And I think ultimately I needed a punishment and I needed a timeout. So there are some positives to take out of all this mess.

27:27Okay. So let's talk a little bit about your time. Prison or jail? Or is it used interchangeably? I still think I say it wrong. Every time I say it, someone corrects me. Sorry. I really don't know. So let's talk about your time in prison. Like what was the day that you reported like? And where did you serve the time? So I was, I believe I spent time at five facilities total for various reasons of basically me causing problems. Oh my God, what were you doing? Most notably, I tried to do a podcast interview over the jail pay phone. That I empathize with. I mean, doing podcasts at all costs. There you go.

28:06So I'm glad you can field me on that one. But they did not take too kindly to that. Why did you do a podcast from prison? So I had an offer to do it and to get paid. And the deal was that all of my payment would be sent directly to restitution. I think I was in this phase. Obviously, it wasn't going to be$26 million, right? It was pennies on that. How much did they want to pay you? It probably would have been like$50 ,000 if I'd actually done it. So it was something. I think it was more about I was so desperate to prove that I wasn't incompetent. and I think like even like family and friends after the documentaries came out they're like Billy you can't do anything and like they'd come and visit me and like hey what do you want to do in the future and I give them an idea or give them a plan like Billy like we don't even think you can work in an ice cream truck and like they were like dead serious and like they just kept putting me down and belittling me and I was so desperate to prove that I could do something with my life and I felt like hey this is my chance to show like I am capable I can pay people back I can work so So I think there's like a desperation to be heard and to be useful in the world, you know, made me want to do it so badly.

29:07Okay. So we'll get to the podcast situation in a minute. But what was day one reporting to prison like for you? I think we're in like a long line. It's like remember, you know, vividly we're in a long line and like they're asking us all these questions like, you know, what drugs are you on? Like what's this? What's that? and like the guy and I couldn't hear the people who were multiple spots ahead of me just like I could hear the guy in front of me and he just like lists every drug I'd ever read in every textbook in my entire life and he's like and they're like oh so like how long has it been since you've taken it and they like he looks around he's like you know like you know three hours oh my god I'm like wait wait what like the guy they spent like 10 minutes like asking the guy about you know all those drug addictions and then you know it comes to me and it's like what did you do I'm like oh how do I describe my crime?

29:57And like, that was like the big wake up call where like, you know, what's going to happen here. And they walked me in at a Spanish cellmate. He didn't speak a word of English. And he kept asking me like, what did you do? What did you do? I didn't know how to describe my crime in Spanish. So I was, you know, super, super scared. And it was like, this is a different world. Were you, were you like, holy shit, I'm, I'm in prison on like day one. Was it just like, that's, I love, I love the TV show prison break when I was a kid. So So was there like a sense of excitement there for you to be there? When I walked in and saw like the clothes that like my cellmate, like washing his clothes in the toilet and then hanging them up on his bed.

30:31I'm like, this is like, this is real. And, you know, I got super scared, obviously. Right. And then so, OK, you get there. There's intake. They ask these questions. You have your cellmate. Did anybody in the prison recognize you? So for better or worse, people in jail watch a lot of TV. OK. no wait was the fire festival documentaries like playing in the yard like you were like yes they did play those someone someone snuck in a usb drive and played those but that was six months after i got arrested and you didn't watch it i didn't watch it okay why not i think i was trying to protect myself from myself uh i just knew that i would nitpick it and be like oh i don't know this person or i didn't say that or she didn't say that and like that would have missed the real point where the real point was i committed a crime and i hurt people who I probably didn't know, but I was too caught up like at that moment, like, oh, that's not true.

31:23Or like this person wasn't really around. I was like losing sight of what was important. And then how did you, did you make friends? For sure. I probably met four or five people that I'll be close with for the rest of my life. And that was definitely the bright side of it. And I think you just get, you get naturally get close with people when you're just going through terrible circumstances, right? Like, you know, guys on like football teams and they're going through like super hard games or super hard seasons, they become close. Like guys who kind of go through these hard life experiences often become, I think, close friends.

31:53And so what was your day-to-day like in prison? Uh, it's tough and there, there isn't much to do. And I think the boredom probably is the hardest factor of all of it. Uh, especially for, you know, an entrepreneur who's so used to like having to work to solve my own problems or to create my own problems, not being able to impact my, my life and day-to-day basis was really weird. Um, like, how did you feel that? I think it was like, it's time out, right? And it's hard. It's hard realizing that you have very little control over life. And I kept like, I would sit there and be like, okay, I caused these problems because of these mistakes, or I caused these good moments in life because of these positive actions I took.

32:34And now any action I take can only hurt me. And that was kind of this weird, like mental barrier to come to understand where like, this is literal timeout for a grown man. And so what sort of decisions are made on your behalf within the prison? I think everything. It's like what time you wake up, what time you go to bed, you know, what time you can call your family, like what you can say to your family, you know, what you have to wear, how do you tuck your shirt in? It's like, there's very little, I think it's designed intelligently to kill ambition. And I think that makes sense, right? Because like, if you have a really bad person, if there's a rapist or a murderer, you want to suck the ambition out of them so they don't commit those crimes in the future.

33:11And I kept saying, like, my goal here is to not lose, like, ambition for, like, life because the system is designed to just make you a robot. But if it's supposed to make you a robot, I'm curious what you think about this. Why is recidivism so high? People go back in society and they go right back. Yeah, it is so hard. And, you know, I've lived this and I like to think that I probably had 10 times the opportunities of my four or five closest friends walking out of prison and it is fucking difficult it's very very hard to get back to society it's hard to have any real work opportunities and the reality is most people go to jail because they didn't have an opportunity so they did something wrong i think like 70 of the federal system are in there for you know various drug violations either selling drugs using drugs and they're often doing that because like that's, that's all they know.

34:00So if you punish somebody for selling drugs, because they have no exposure to other opportunities, you put them in jail for 10 years and let them out. It's not like they're going to miraculously have an opportunity 10 years later after being removed if they didn't have before. So I don't have the answer. And I think that's much bigger than me. Right. But I think it's like a really, really hard way to ponder somebody and expect them to be able to kind of go back to something they never had before. Okay. So you're, you're in general population. You have a cellmate. You're eating lunch with folks in the lunchroom, I imagine.

34:33And you say, hey, let me do this podcast. I understand for your reasons. So you got, how did you get busted for doing the show? I mean, I guess the judge must have listened or did you do it over the phone or? Yeah, there are these pay phones and you were allowed, I think 20, 15 minute calls a month, but you can use them in any order as long as you wait, I think it was 30 minutes between each call. So we had a podcast host basically book a studio for two days and I would call in every 30 minutes for four or five hours one day and did it again the second day. I'm like basically used all my monthly like minutes, as I said, during those two days.

35:11They created a YouTube trailer out of my interview and they posted the YouTube trailer online. And an hour after that came out, you know, the guard cams like, you know, McFarlane come with me and just took me to solitary. Really? Yeah. But you're not the first prisoner to do a podcast. I mean, one of the most famous, or if not the most famous show is, um, is the serial show where the guy talks about his innocence. So what do you think was different here? It's tough. And this is like, I think this is probably resulted in the biggest, you know, paranoia post jail where for fire festival and around that time period, I fully understand like what I did wrong.

35:52Right. And it's easy to be like, okay, I'm sitting in jail because I did X and I deserve to be here. I hurt people. And now I'm here. The podcast was a weird one for me because it didn't hurt anybody and it didn't break any rules, but the punishment for that was arguably harsher than it was for committing a $26 million fraud. So I think that probably left the biggest confusion for me about the system. It's like, this isn't fair, right? I committed a$26 million fraud. Yes, I deserve six years, but now I didn't break the rules and I'm doing seven months straight in a hole. And like that got me really scared.

36:25And it's like, wow, like, you know, there are powers out there that could snap their fingers and literally like put me Billy in a concrete box the rest of my life. And I think that probably had terrible effects on me. Was it just discretionary then from the jail to be like, or the prison to be like, well, you did a podcast. We don't like that. Now go to solitary? Yeah. They just said they were investigating and they could investigate for as long as they want. And you went right to solitary right immediately. Yeah. What is solitary like? Uh, I think the hardest part of solitary is you're behind this, like a metal door and like the rest of the cell is concrete.

37:00And there's maybe like a half an inch underneath the door. So you can still hear, you can't see anybody else, but they're like, it's like a long, you know, concrete hallway of different cells. Hearing people go crazy and losing their minds is kind of wild. So they're like, everybody has their breaking point. Right. And like hearing these grown men who maybe look intimidating or who, you know, we're certainly tough people and talk to big game. All of a sudden they're down there for one month, two months, three months, six months, whatever it was, and just kind of seeing them lose their mind and banging their cells and screaming and crying.

37:29And like, that was really eerie. Did you lose your mind? I don't think so. I guess I'll let the audience judge that. Uh, I think there's everybody kind of hits their point and I don't think I hit mine. And like, I don't know when that point is, right? Would it be nine months? Would it be two years? Like who really knows? That's kind of the scary thing where like you're sitting in there and it's like, okay, I haven't gotten there yet. But like, you know, now this guy did and I respect this guy. Like am I next? That kind of freaked you out. So you knew the other people in the cells? Not all of them, but some of them.

37:59Like, you know, you see them around the prison before they went to solitary, right? So you have some kind of relationship. So what did you do all day long there? Meditate and try to write. I think the funny thing was everybody's always trying to sneak drugs into solitary and my thing was I Always wanted like a big pen. It's like actually like right right on paper So I was trying to get you know pens smuggled in there everybody else smuggling and drugs kind of funny really where you could you read inside? You could but they limited it to books a week and it sounds like a lot when you have nothing else to do It really is nothing right.

38:30So yeah, it wasn't much like when like literally that's what you do for 18 hours a day You're gonna go through it pretty quickly. So you're just sitting there reading, meditating, doing pushups, you know, listening to people scream, cry, sing, yell. It is always some kind of entertainment. And you're not allowed to talk to the other people through there or can you? Oh, you are, but you have to scream because like you're behind this metal door. So you have to kind of go up to the hole underneath your door and yell and scream. And what did it feel like when you were eventually let out or why were you eventually let out of there?

39:00Uh, I think after enough period of time, they, the investigation ended, you know, I was found not guilty of, I'm not really sure what I was accused of doing, but I was found not guilty of breaking a rule and they, uh, ship had a ship me to a different prison. So they sent me on Conair, uh, to a holding center. And then after the holding center, they put me on a bus from Oklahoma city to Michigan shackled for 17 hours on a bus. Oh my God. That's kind of insane. That's crazy. these were federal systems yeah so couldn't use the bathroom couldn't do anything for 17 hours seven literally shackled on the bus right that i mean they're talking about what's happening to sam bankman freed also and he's been transferred like this oh i didn't see that okay in the same way it's oh really yeah it's all the same way for everybody so the bus ride was particularly long they say it's very long what happens on these bus rides not people screaming people like they they play music so i think that was the first time i heard music in seven months oh my god No, like the first, like first two hours of the bus ride is kind of sensory overload and they were, they were blasting, they were blasting music and it's like literally hadn't heard any, any radio, any music, any TV in seven months.

40:09I was like, that was a little bit of like, that was a little bit of a shock. What level of security were these prisons that you were at? Um, I did it all. Uh, I was in Brooklyn detention center, which is like all levels. Right. That's on Atlantic Ave. Yep. So technically like technically max, right. But that place is supposed to be pretty bad. What was that like? That place is rough. That was the only place where it's like, you know, you legitimately could get stabbed for no reason. So that was certainly the roughest place. And then I went to a minimum and then kind of went up the ranks from there based on my various behavior.

40:39So what else did you get into trouble for doing in the other places? At the first place I was post-Brooklyn, like my first, you know, real facility was minimum security. And I had a USB device. And that's against the rules. And they busted you? I got in trouble for that. Went to solitary for three months for that. Wait, so you did a total of 10 months of solitary? But ironically, the time I actually broke the rules, I only did three months. And I didn't break the rules, I did seven. So it just doesn't make sense, right? It's a little confusing. When you were in there, did you ever think, man, like I was on a beach in the Bahamas partying with supermodels like a year and a half ago, and now I'm in solitary confinement.

41:16How did this happen? It's like all the guards would always be like, oh, you know, penthouse to the outhouse, and like try to make fun of me like that. But I think what people don't understand, like I never missed, I didn't miss any like nice things, right? I didn't miss a nice apartment. I didn't miss a nice vacation. I miss people. And I miss like connection. Like when you have nothing, you don't think about, Oh, I want my like beautiful home. It's like, no, I want a friend to talk to you. I need like, you know, I want a woman to touch. I want like family to talk to you. Like you just want like the most basic things.

41:43So I think like the, just like a cool beach just seems so far from reality at that point that like my desires were way more, you know, simplistic. Yeah. It really tells you a little bit about like what matters in life. Yeah. Literally, literally. It's like, I would have traded anything for like, you know, a night with friends, like in that cell, you know, before I thought about like going to a great apartment or great house or a beautiful restaurant. And then you got let out two years early. Yeah. So everybody gets in the federal system, everybody gets 15 % off for what they call a good time. Um, so, you know, I lost a month of that for the USB device.

42:19I did not lose any of that for the podcast. And then there was a law passed by Trump called the first step act, which gave nonviolent offenders a year off. And that came as a surprise. We had been hearing about it for years, thought it was bullshit. And then, you know, I was woken up one morning at 5.00 AM saying, Hey, you know, McFarland, your date changed and the rest is history. And then you got to walk out. Yep. Um, what, what did you do when you walked out for the first time? I had to go to the halfway house in Brooklyn. So I was basically had a four month, four months left in my sentence to be served at a halfway house, which essentially is like a open prison where you can, you know, leave during the day and come back and sleep at night.

42:58Uh, so I just drove in a car from Detroit, Michigan to Brooklyn. And I'm like, how am I turning myself back into jail after all this. Right. So it's kind of a weird experience. But yeah, it was way better than in real prison for sure. Where's the Brooklyn halfway house? It was on Gold Street. Okay. Yeah. It was fine. Unremarkable. And so how did you feel coming out, just being done with it? It felt so good. It still didn't feel real. And I think when I was woken up and told my date had changed, I had maybe a month and a half left before I would go to the halfway house. And those 45 days became the hardest 45 days of the entire sentence.

43:39Where I was convinced that one morning, just like they called me to give me good news one day, they were going to call and tell me, hey, we're joking. You know, you have 20 more years. You're never leaving. And it's like that anxiety. I've never really had anxiety in my life until that last 45 days where you just like knew something bad was going to happen and it wasn't going to be real. So that was super stressful. Yeah. You never got into any fights in the prison or anything like that? I had a couple issues early on that were, you know, solved, but I never got hurt, no. What happened there? I had a cellmate in Brooklyn who, you know, told me that someone was trying to extort me for$150.

44:15And he offered to pay them on my behalf or to fight them with me. And I said I wasn't going to pay. And he anticipated that response. And when I wasn't paying attention, he basically went and fought the guys for me. He got stabbed. And I came back to my cell and he was bleeding everywhere. And he had literally like, you know, take my God for me. So what made this guy want to fight on your behalf? He's a really nice guy. He was also in front of financial crime. He had a 14 year sentence. He was six years in on a sentence and he was back in Brooklyn to appeal his crime. And he just lost his appeal.

44:46So he's waiting to get sent back to his permanent facility. And this is before my sentencing. And he's like, if you get any trouble before your sentencing, you know, the judges look really down upon that. if you can't keep yourself out of trouble in here, you'll get more time. And I already have mine. So he went and did it. He was ready to fight. He was ready. He was ready to go. Yeah. It's probably a mix of being super mad that he lost his appeal. And like also just being a really, really good guy. And there was another one you said. Nothing, nothing too serious. Like nothing, nothing bad. It was, you know, like when there's 2000 men locked in a recreation center together.

45:20Yeah, exactly. It's pretty, you know, people get upset. Okay. So you get out and then it's like, all right, You got to try to build your life back up again. But I imagine you can't get a job. Like I imagine most people who speak with you are also just like, is Billy telling the truth to me? Like, is he trying to con me now? Like, so what did you do? I think I kind of had this idea that I would walk out and all the people who had seen me, I want to say like work or operate or live for the past 12 years would all be there. Like, oh, you serve your time. Like, you're back. and kind of have open arms.

45:56And the reality was it wasn't like that. And it took probably six to 12 months to really get back a group of people who could really trust me. Yeah, so it's hard. Yeah, so it's been a tough, tough ride. Okay, and then I said, well, you couldn't possibly try to create another festival. And then I looked at your Twitter and it looks like you're trying to do Fyre Festival 2. Yes. Billy, for real? Why? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Fyre has just been the most talked about music festival in the world since 2016. Obviously, the majority of that is bad. But as an entrepreneur, I think this is an incredible challenge.

46:35And if someone executes Fyre successfully, the brand value is there. I think the desire for the experiences is as strong as ever. So, uh, ultimately I have partnered with professional festival people. So I'm not the one building fire festival too. Those are third party companies. And I think when they do fire correctly, there's a real opportunity for that new fire brand to pay back a lot of what is owed from fire festival one. Wait, so are the, some of the same investors that invested in fire festival one investing in fire festival too? No, it's a new group. So there's two professional festival companies who are actually doing it and they're in charge of everything, whether it's, you know, budgets, money, 10 stages, like they do it all.

47:17But I think incredible opportunity to fulfill the dream of fire, but also to fulfill the new dream, which is paying back people who are legitimately owed. Right. So wait, are you just licensing the name or what's your role in it? I'm helping with the marketing. So it's like not a straight licensing deal, but you know, they're in charge. Okay. I see. Yeah. And so your, your priority for the payment will be to the investors first and then the people in the Bahamas second or? Because I was looking at the Bahamas. They say that you're a fugitive or something like that. I saw that. That came out of nowhere almost two years ago now, maybe a year and a half ago.

47:52So that was kind of that was kind of hard. Yeah. So my best friends in the world live in the Bahamas. When I was released, I had two people from the Bahamas who had never been to America. They flew up that day to come and see me. So really, I mean, the people are really cool. it's interesting so i mean you didn't watch the documentaries but yeah i did and i mean the people in the bahamas some of them are like speaking you know they had already been through this whole experience and they couldn't speak highly enough of you like in fact there's one scene where somebody calls you uh you call somebody while they're on camera and they're like yeah billy i'm i'm saying the good word or something like that yeah i'm saying nice things yeah um but then there's also the other side of like all the workers that were at the festival and didn't get paid.

48:35And there's one restaurant owner who will, you know, sort of like when you think about the event, her image is like really sort of, um, prominent who just, uh, you know, I had to dig into her savings to pay for the workers and all the supplies and stuff that she had to, to lay out for the festival and never got reimbursed. Yeah, it's tough. And so once again, the the Bahamian vendors and like, just to give numbers here, I think we probably spent 4 million on, you know, Bahamian vendors over four months and there's approximately 250 ,000, um, still owed to them. Uh, unfortunately that's not covered under restitution.

49:14Uh, however, it's something that I do want to pay back. And we've actually submitted a request to the Bahamian government to pay that back. So waiting for approval on that, but you know, my goal is about to be done this year. Oh, wow. and so are you you're not going to host the second fire festival in the bahamas it doesn't seem like you're allowed there so i don't think so i think it would be a nice a nice like you know recap for the story but maybe they'll have us for fire three yeah so and and how do you anticipate i mean you know it's so interesting hearing you talk about the brand like i don't know i i guess like there would be there's an element that's like let me see what this is all about like i want to experience it, but also like an element of just like, I don't know if it would pay a lot of money for the chance that this would happen again.

50:01So how are you thinking about getting people out there? Fire was always pitched, like we create moments that you never forget, right? And that was like our tagline. And we created a moment that you never forgot. It was obviously the wrong moment. So I think my goal this time is just getting the proper help to create that moment in the right way. We'd also been talking and I truly believe that the people who attend the next iteration of fire are going to be far more interesting than people who attend, you know, Fire 3 or Fire 4 once everything is proven out. I think we're attracting a certain kind of adventure.

50:35Maniac adventurer. Someone open to anything, right, for Fire 2. So, yeah, I'm really interested in meeting the people who are actually buying tickets and coming to Fire 2. I think they're going to be interesting group of people. What percentage of your Fire 1 attendees do you think would have been just totally fine, like, living in those emergency tents and, like, going through with the weekend? Good question. Once again, this doesn't take away from the fraud that was committed. I think there were two or three bad game time decisions that I made the day of the festival that ultimately made it to be canceled.

51:06Yeah, what were those decisions? So there was a storm the night before the festival. And I would say deteriorate our preparations by a significant amount. So when planes started arriving at 7 a.m. the next morning, instead of having people come to their tents and get situated right away, we directed them all to a beach on the other side of the island. And we sent over, you know, boats, jet skis, booze, and allowed them to essentially have a party all day long and had them come back to the tents at sunset that night. So by the time everybody arrived, instead of it being one plane load at a time, it was probably a thousand people all at once.

51:41They were drunk. A lot of them drunk. Our lights weren't working. So it just became completely unmanageable. And yes, the tents were nowhere near as good as they needed to be. But it probably would have survived how we had people come, you know, sober and manageable group sizes starting first thing in the morning. Yeah. So are you going to are you going to market fire to the same way you marketed fire one with these? Are you going to get influencers again? No, we've a really funny like 180 take on how to market it. So I'm excited to roll it out. Yeah, we can't release it yet, but it's not going to be glossy like supermodels.

52:15We're going to make fun of myself a little bit. And that's in 2025? Yes. And you're also boxing? I did one kickboxing fight. I fought May 30th, so a couple months ago. I think top 10 life experience for sure. Oh, talk about it. You knocked some guy out. I fought for a promotion called Karate Combat. They're doing really well. They're like a startup fighting league. I think they're like a crypto-backed or crypto-focused fighting league. And I fought a crypto influencer on May 30th. But that was really, really cool. I mean, made a couple dollars back towards restitution. It wasn't crazy, right? But I think it was more about taking on that life challenge.

52:57And I'm very, very happy I did it. How much do you have left to pay? Is it still$27 million? Yeah, I have not paid that much yet. I pay every month. So I paid maybe like 60 grand or something like that. Where are you making money from today? So I do a lot of marketing work. So I consult for a number of venture-backed startups, helping them create these viral moments for their brand. That's one thing we know you're good at. Yeah, so that's the bread and butter. That kind of keeps the lights on and pays the bills. Then I have a couple of other FIRE-related projects. Obviously, doing a deal with festival companies for FIRE 2.

53:30did a licensing deal for a third party to produce a fire musical, which I think is interesting. What? There's a musical? Where's that going to be? Hopefully Broadway, but it just takes a few years. So I think they're making their announcement in September or October. Wow. Are you going to do more political work? I don't know. So I've really focused on doing projects in the music space right now, and we'll kind of see where that goes and open to everything in anything. Okay. Last question for you. What's your relationship like with Ja Rule? There is none. What happened there? There is none. Yeah.

54:06I think he had a lot of really admirable traits. I think he was a, he was, he was a very charismatic guy. I think he was a great salesperson and you know, we were certainly close friends for a number of years, but you know, shit happens and I think we're on different paths now. Okay. Billy McFarland. Thanks so much for joining. Great speaking with you. Thanks Alex. Appreciate it. Everybody, thanks so much for listening. We'll be back on Friday, breaking down the week's news. Until next time, we'll see you then on Big Technology Podcast.