TikTok's Uncertain Future, Twitter's 2024 Election Play, AI Regulation's Feasibility — With Ryan Mac and Bobby Allyn

26:08Relevant to a certain amount of people. And there's, you know, there's still some critical mass there. Is it the same as, you know, the last election? Probably not. But, you know, it's going to take time for these things to just completely go away. And these things are still going to have a role. But what's the wheels fall off the bus moment for Twitter? I mean, there's more outages than ever. The DeSantis presidential announcement was a total disaster. I mean, I just feel like, is there going to be a moment that finally people say, I mean, when you and other journalists were suspended from Twitter, a lot of journalists were like, screw this, I'm off.

26:42I mean, what's it going to be? I think it's different for everyone. You know, everyone's going to have their point where it's no longer tenable for them. You know, was it Elon going after, you know, his former head of trust and safety and saying, you know, pretty homophobic stuff about him? I mean, that was for some people the last straw, you know. Was it the banning of journalists? You know, it's going to be something different for everyone. Maybe it's just the service shutting off for a period of time or people getting logged out so they can't remember the credentials. Right. I do think it's kind of amazing that they spun this space as like a, we broke the internet moment.

27:22Like we melted the servers. I was like, that's been like the refrain over and over again. And then, you know, you guys didn't break the internet. You broke a feature on an app, you know, that's been breaking for the last however many months. It does speak to the interest in this announcement on Twitter and this idea that there's ever going to be a wheels off the bus moment for Twitter. I mean, the platform, I can tell you from the moment I started covering this platform, there have been op-eds talking about how Twitter is dead and they always end up being tweeted by the people that wrote the op-ed.

27:53And I'm sure the people who talked about how much of a disaster the DeSantis thing was, you know, went on and tweeted about it and hope to get traction there. So I do think it's interesting that Elon Musk has gone on to be one of, I guess, a number of Republican kingmakers in this election, or at least that's what he's positioning himself to be. What do you guys think about the role that he in particular is going to play in this election? And do you think his support is going to help or hurt candidates? Because I have to imagine that if you're DeSantis, you probably went through this type of thought process.

28:28A, okay, wow, one of the most successful business people in the country who has like real, you know, very serious fans, real grassroots movement supporting him, wants to feature me on his platform. It helps in the culture war narrative. And this is very exciting. And then, oh, wow, like, well, you know, it didn't work out as planned. Kind of like our announcement was a bit of a flop. Um, and that association with Elon Musk, it's like very difficult, I think, for me to contextualize how that's going to help or hurt a candidate who wants to get close to him. Kind of curious what you guys think. I don't know if you hit your political future to Elon Musk, I can't imagine that you're going to be very successful, but people said the same about Trump before.

29:10Yeah. These can't imagine statements are kind of right. Right. But I, I just, I mean, I, I think obviously people like saying that Trump is, or sorry, that Elon is very Trumpian, but I don't think his base has a coherent set of worldviews. I mean, he's such a mercurial, chaotic person who's running so many different companies and has so many different interests that, I mean, besides being sort of a chaos agent and besides being someone who really relishes owning the libs, what else does he stand for politically? He's kind of a self-preservation. You just basically described the type of person that Trump was.

29:44Yeah, but he, I mean, like Trump, he's a self-preservationist. He hoards and wants to preserve his wealth. I mean, what else does he really represent, Ryan? What do you think politically? I was just thinking of the irony. He did this CNBC interview the other day where he's like, give me money. I don't care. Give me power. I don't care. And influencing an election is the definition of gaining power. Yeah, and caring. And caring.

30:10It is strange, though, because I don't know how much he wants to hitch his star to DeSantis. You know, in some ways you've already like I've been on Twitter and seen the reaction to it, but he's alienating this like MAGA base that he's also people love, you know, he's had this subset of Trump fans that like him, you know, for owning the libs essentially. And he's alienated those folks. You know, he retweeted Tim Scott the other day, the Tim Scott announcement, the video on Twitter. So like, you know, is he for Tim? And he's putting Tucker on who might run for president himself. And Ben Shapiro, right?

30:46And he's doing a bunch of beer. I think he knows that the election is inherently going to drive traffic to Twitter. And ultimately, that I think is his North Star. You know, if he can save Twitter as a business while doing all this other promotion of these candidates, you know, I think he sees that as a flywheel of pushing, you know, more activity to Twitter and more relevance to Twitter. Here's a question I have for both you guys. If there's a DeSantis administration, do you think Elon gets a cabinet position? Oh, I don't think he would take one. I mean, can you imagine going from the CEO of, unless, what was he like?

31:20Don't you have to divest? There's that. Maybe he could become vice president, but like, come on, he's not going to give up. No, he can't because he can't. I don't think there's a conflict of interest in the executive branch. No, it's the whole South Africa. He's not born. Can you be vice president if you're born outside the U.S.? He's a U.S. citizen. I don't see why not, but don't quote me on that. You might end up getting. Read the trusty U.S. constitution. I mean, I just think personality-wise, he can't have a boss. So I think that would be a short-lived tenure. Trust me, I don't think that that would be something that he'd be interested in.

31:50He's building companies, not doing politics. And you wouldn't want him as one of the high prestige ones, like the Secretary of State. But I'm going to push back gently on this idea. Elon Musk as Secretary of State. I mean, trust me, this country has been through weird things. So I want to push back gently on this idea that he doesn't have a political philosophy Because I think you could basically describe Elon's political philosophy and his pushback and his purchase of Twitter as something of like a pushback on what a lot of Republicans are like describing as this sort of totalitarian version of progressivism.

32:26And, you know, that doesn't want people to be able to have free speech or, you know, take certain positions. And like that is actually a very big part of Republican politics today. And you could say DeSantis is actually like a key part of that with like his pushback against Disney in Florida and his other bills that the state has pushed forward. Yeah. I'm saying that like this is actually kind of a more coherent and more of a pillar of Republican politics than I think you've given them credit for. I'm just happy that we have a steward of a major social media platform who's combating the woke mind virus because it's just been a while.

33:04But you can dismiss it, but that's actually, you know, I guess like the thing is like that is, that's a core animating principle of one of the two major American parties right now. I would, no, I'll leave you with this. I think, you know, Elon's core like political principle, I mean, beyond the last two years is protecting his pocketbook, protecting his companies. You know, it's the amount of contradictions in this man is like amazing. you know, he criticized, you know, the lockdown, the COVID lockdowns and the woke mind virus for, you know, shutting down his Tesla factories in the opening stages of COVID, March 2020.

33:43He filed a lawsuit in Alameda County. And look who's supporting the guy who was like the most strongly anti-lockdown. Well, I was going to say, you know, the same thing happened in China. You know, there was no criticism of China. The Chinese government, you know, Tesla's very, like, he sees China is very important to Tesla's future. No criticism there. You know, why not? Like what? The same thing happened, you know, if not more in China. And you don't have him, you know, going on these Twitter tirades against, you know. Xi Jinping. Yeah, exactly. Okay. So you guys have both had like pretty tense interactions with Elon Musk, where he hasn't shown the best side of himself.

34:24Let's put it that way. He's shown a side of himself. Yeah, right. So I think that. A reserve judgment. I will judge. I mean, he like, like, I don't think emailing Bobby, you suck, is like the best. Bobby, that's what he said. I do that every day. I mean. Ryan does. Yeah, exactly. I've definitely frequently will send Bobby those. Now, especially. And Ryan, what did he email you? Did he call you like an asshole or something like that? You fucking asshole. Are we letting person? Sorry. Well, we'll bleep it. We'll do that first. We're not live on NPR. Thank goodness. FCC is not listening to your podcast.

34:55No, no. Well, yeah. Hmm. they, they, uh, not them, but the platforms definitely crawl for swear words and mark you down if you, if you use them, but we'll bleep it. But yeah, I'm kind of curious. Like, so you guys have seen him be this, the petulant side of, uh, the person that he is. Do you ever like, kind of like sit that side beside and kind of say, how did this guy who has like the, doesn't have the minimal impulse control not to write these email emails still, how is this person the same person that can build companies like SpaceX and Tesla? How does that, you know, for the scorned by Elon Club, I want to turn it over to you and kind of see how that sits in your...

35:39Why are we not rich, Bobby? Why haven't we built these companies? That's not what I'm saying. I'm just kind of trying to say, you must spend some time thinking about this psychology of the person and also is the fact that like, how do you contextualize a person that will act like this, but also is able to build the way he has. You can either think of it as a duality or this is the quality that also helps him build these companies, right? He's so bombastic and in some ways pushes people. Maybe it's just like a forcing function to push people towards these goals, yelling at them or telling them they're horrible, they're wrong.

36:19At the end of the day, he's like a great salesman of his vision and however he gets people there works for him. And clearly it's worked for him at multiple companies, whether that's SpaceX or Tesla. And so I don't know, maybe it's a quality that is needed from a CEO. I don't know. I've never run a company. It's hard to imagine how having no impulse control and punching down for a living can help you be a successful entrepreneur. I think it's a weird quirk about Elon that he has a lot of business success and he's also just kind of a maniac. I mean, he sends me emails at 2 a.m. trolling NPR. And it's gotten to the point where my bosses at NPR kind of rolled their eyes when I get an Elon Musk email.

37:04We're kind of sick of it. But, you know, my colleague, David Fulkenflake, who covers the media, you know, he wrote a book about Fox and someone said to me, imagine if David kept getting emails from Rupert Murdoch. We would say, we got to run this to the presses. We got to do a story. Sometimes we kind of forget Elon has amassed the power that he has, that he is, is he the most or the second most wealthy person in the world? I can never keep track. Refructuates. Yeah. But yeah, I think his antics are so frequent that even in journalism, sometimes we sort of dismiss him or roll our eyes at him. But I do think when he's bullying journalists or when he's sort of blackmailing NPR into tweeting again.

37:44I think we ought to take that seriously and report on it. Well, I think that's the most Trump, like he shifted the Overton window of how we think about him. And that's a Trumpian, like, you know, it's like, that's very Trumpian, right? Like, oh, well, he's done this, you know, like it can't be as bad as the last thing you did, you know? And so there's that quality to him where you can't necessarily cover everything. And if you did, it would drive you nuts. And like, I don't know if we'd be better off for it. Bobby, don't you think it's time for NPR to start tweeting again? I mean, he did take your label off.

38:16Yeah, that's a decision for the executives at NPR. I'm a rank and file reporter. I don't have any say. And honestly, I don't have a position. All I know is like so many news organizations, we derive very little traffic from tweeting out stories. There's an argument to be made that whatever you can help build audience on Twitter. I'm not sure if that's the place to be building the kind of audience that we want right now, to be honest. I think there's more to be gained by doing TikTok videos than tweeting out generic headlines about the news of the day. So I haven't seen a real change in A, traffic, and B, sort of the kind of people who are reaching out to me about my story since we stopped tweeting.

38:57So I don't really care. Are we going to see you on TikTok? Are you going to start making TikTok videos? I am on TikTok. I'm going to have to make my account private after this podcast because everyone's going to rush to see what my videos are. It's going to melt the servers. Exactly. Folks, you have not seen, you haven't lived until you've seen Bobby dance to Renegade. They've melted my, it's melted my eyeballs. We're here on Big Technology Podcast joined by Ryan Mack and Bobby Allen. Ryan is a technology reporter at the New York Times. Bobby Allen, technology correspondent at NPR, which may tweet once again or may not.

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41:18And we're back here on Big Technology Podcast with Bobby Allen. He's a technology correspondent at NPR and Ryan Mack. He's a technology reporter at the New York Times, both members of the scorned by Elon Club. I am, alas, not one of them. When is that meeting, by the way? Is it like next week? Every Wednesday? Every other Wednesday? Every Wednesday. Not in this group. Yeah, yeah. Hi, I'm Bobby and Elon emails me mean things. That would be fun. That'd be a lot of fun. Elizabeth Holmes is scheduled to report to prison a day before we record, a day before we publish Tuesday of this week. She may be in a cell right now.

41:55And so it's, I guess it's somewhat surprising that she's actually going to go. I don't know why I'm having that reaction. Like obviously a criminal actually going to go and supposed to go for 11 years. What do you think about the fact that she's actually like, this is really happening? It doesn't shock me. I mean, before I covered tech, I covered courts and a jury convicted her. A federal judge sentenced her. This is what happens. A lot of people are sort of astonished at the length of the sentence. I mean, 11 years is a long time. And 13 for Sonny Balwani, which is even longer. I mean, by the sentencing guidelines, this is a pretty fair sentence.

42:35But one thing to really underscore here is who were the victims again in this fraud? Rupert Murdoch, Walgreens, Safeway, right? I mean, the most sympathetic victims in the Theranos trial were the patients who got blood tests that told them things like, you know, their pregnancy had been terminated when it had not. Things like the cancer had come back when it had not. The jury found that there wasn't enough evidence to actually convict her on those patient counts. So she's being put away for 11 years in federal prison basically for stealing from Rupert Murdoch and VC funds. So yeah, I just think that's something that gets lost in this.

43:14Yeah, right. Exactly. I think she actually is going to serve for 11 years. I can't, I can't say. I mean, I don't, I mean, it's possible. It's possible. I don't want to speculate. I mean, that's her sentence. I'll do it. I think she's got maybe, maybe five most, just given the way that I see the American legal system. All right. I'll make a note. Five years from today, we'll come back on Big Technology Podcast. She has a lot of political heft behind her. I mean, Cory Booker was already like writing, you know, letters on her behalf. You know, I feel like there is. Maybe a politician somewhere that's going to hit their start is this idea that, you know, we were wrong about Elizabeth Holmes.

43:50I mean, her people already are doing that, right? Her newborn child was named Invicta, which I think is Latin for, what is it, always invincible? So maybe that was a sort of way of acknowledging that she thinks she's going to come back. Who knows? There's the New York Times story that people talked about a little bit last month called, or actually earlier this month, Liz Holmes wants you to forget about Elizabeth. And it was kind of like a Rorschach test between people saying, wow, you're rehabilitating Holmes's image. And, well, some other people call it a masterful story that proved that she's able to manipulate depending on the situation.

44:28I kind of felt more in the former camp. Ryan, I'm going to excuse you from commenting on this because it is the work of one of your colleagues. Bobby, I'm curious what your reaction was to that story. I think it was a freelance journalist, Amy Chosek, right? Didn't she write the piece? I mean, Ryan wants to comment. I'm going to let him do it. I just think it's pretty notable that the person who got the access and seemed to be. I don't want to speculate again. It seemed notable that the person who got the access and did the story did not cover the trial. It seemed the tone and the tenor of the piece, I think, was to people like me who covered the trial pretty closely, seemed to be a little tone deaf.

45:04It seemed like the part of the intent of the piece was to sort of humanize this former star of Silicon Valley before she goes to federal prison. And it definitely gave us some texture and some color of what she's like and what she's thinking and what motivates her. But there are also some quotes in the piece that made it seem like she has no regrets, that she really thinks that, you know, had she had more time, that these promises of revolutionizing laboratory science would have come to fruition. I don't doubt that either. I mean, this is a media-driven demonization of a great Silicon Valley. Are you Tim Draper or are you Alex Kantrowitz?

45:43I'm kidding. He's got Bitcoin to sell you. He was a fraud. I was going to say, to your point, though, it's her saying that on record. The journalist is posing that to the world and allowing her to say that. It's like people can make a value judgment after reading that, but I think it adds to the Liz Elizabeth Holmes record a little bit. So, yeah, I don't think I don't think any journalist would get the call. Hey, do you want unfettered access to Elizabeth Holmes on the record? I don't think any journalist would say no. Right. I mean, maybe some would. I think I would say yes. I think most would say yes.

46:19I think I think I think exactly. The debate is about how should this be framed? That being said, you know, I think that I don't think anybody read that story and was like actually like, oh, I changed my mind about Elizabeth Holmes. And I do think that like people give access. I guess maybe people did. But I think that access journalism like gets a hard time. And I think there's a place for it. Like like Ryan said, you do want the principles and story going on the record. She looks like a victim in the story, though. Just imagine if this is the only story someone reads about Elizabeth Holmes, how your takeaway about her and the company would be different than if you actually knew what happened.

46:54I would counter that and say it. If you're reading that story, I don't think that's the only story you're reading about Elizabeth Holmes. Like you're probably going to go. Who's Elizabeth Holmes? You mean Liz Holmes? Liz. Liz. She wants you to forget about Elizabeth. It's an SEO thing. It's actually an SEO, yeah. So 10 minutes left. Let's talk a little bit about the potential that we're going to regulate AI. But before we do, I just want to let listeners know that we're here in NPR Studios in Culver City and there's a talk and a cough button. And Ryan just... I'm about to hit the button that sends the first tweet since Dave's suspended.

47:27There's like a big old tweet. Don't hit that button, Ryan. Don't hit it. I'm about to break the glass. It's like that meme of like... Break glass moment. Yeah. That tweet. Bobby Allen's latest story. But Ryan did just use the cough button exquisitely and I want to just shout him out for that. Well done, Ryan. I've never seen a button like this. There is some artificial intelligence regulation floating around Europe right now, which is actually quite interesting. It has more than a thousand amendments to it. And it's expanded kind of from like very like common sense legislation about like what should be used for data training to just this sprawling European style piece of tech regulation.

48:09and sam altman uh the ceo of open ai is now saying that we're going to take a look at what this bill says and we're going to try to comply but if we can't comply we're going to seize operating in europe i just want to call out a less graceful use of the cough button by bobby but bobby i'm just curious uh i'd love to hear your perspective on on this piece of regulation and whether you think it's actually going to um whether you think it's going to be passed whether Do you think it will change the way that OpenAI operates in Europe? Do they even have to operate in Europe? Your thoughts? Yeah, I mean, I think it's hard to talk about this without talking about social media.

48:49I mean, remember, Facebook was running ads for a while that were basically saying, please regulate us, right? And I think, you know, the industry will come in and beg Congress to pass laws and then nothing will happen. I'm sort of cynical in that, at least in the U.S., I don't think that there's going to be any AI, regulation happening anytime soon. Of course, it's very different because the First Amendment, I think, was getting in the way of social media regs in a way that it may not with regulating generative AI. But Europe, with data security, with so much in tech regulation space, they've been sort of ahead of the curve.

49:26And if any part of the country passes AI regulations first, it's going to be the EU. But I think we should explain what the EU is saying, right? They're saying that any copyrighted material that's used in a generative AI context should be, you know, that should not be allowed and you have the ability to pull that out? Yeah, here's the language from the Financial Times. Under the European Parliament's proposals, developers of generative AI models like ChatGPT would have to disclose content that was generated by AI and publish summaries of copyrighted data used for training purposes so that creators can be remunerated for the use of their work.

50:07Right. And OpenAI is saying, please don't regulate us like that. That's not what we want. It just goes to show you how much text has actually been used for this. And, you know, it's created the fastest growing consumer product in history. But, I mean, obviously the algorithms are the innovation, but the data used to train it is sort of, this is all being built on the back of that stuff. And Sam Altman's on an international charm offensive right now. I think, you know, he, like Zuckerberg before him, is they're trying to embrace regulations. But really, when there's serious regulations proposed, they're saying embrace and air quotes, right?

50:42Exactly. Not really embrace, sort of pay lip service to the idea of the government coming in and sort of mounting some kind of guardrails. But when the rubber hits the road, they're kind of like, do we really want this? Right. Yeah. So it's it's it's interesting. I find it kind of fascinating that folks are again saying, well, there's bipartisan agreement and the companies are agreeing that AI needs to be regulated and it's going to happen inevitably. And I'm just like, wait a second. Like we just saw years of this type of stuff being talked about when it comes to big tech and nothing happened, basically nothing.

51:16and I just I'm wary about going down the same rabbit hole expecting that something's going to happen except maybe if it does come from Europe that's like the one big if Europe is just like they're very gung-ho and bringing the hammer down on tech companies. At this point has been made by others I can't remember who it's not my original idea but you know Sam Altman and OpenAI had a whole hype cycle around introduction of Dali and then ChatGPT saying look at these incredibly powerful generative AI tools, amazing for him and the company. And now he has a second sort of news cycle that he is going around to legislatures and to Washington and all around the world saying, we want rules.

51:57We want to rein this in, which is another super positive sort of news cycle for him. So he's really being cast as this like crusade, this like little tech genius who's just like brilliant and big tech genius and creates, there you go, who creates powerful tools and also wants rules to regulate it. And the truth is definitely not that, but that's the impression that some are left with, I think. What were you going to say, Ryan? No, I was just going to say, you know, he's learning from the mistakes of Mark Zuckerberg, you know, where, you know, Zuckerberg created the, you know, massive platform, then had this whole period where he, you know, got dumped on for not being able to rein it in.

52:33And now, and then went out and said, you know, said like, please regulate us. We're not going to tell you how to regulate us, but you know, it'll look good for us if we say, please regulate us. And we're going to put ads in every major newspaper and that kind of thing. Altman has kind of learned from this, and he's kind of accelerated that process and kind of skipped, in some ways, skipped over that hate period, you know, in a way. Maybe it'll come later for him, but he certainly accelerated to the point of the please regulate us part. I'm not going to obviously tell you how to regulate us, but it's going to make me look good if I say it.

53:06But I protest when I don't like the regulation. But he's the one who unleashed this beast, right? I mean, OpenAI could have made a decision not to publicly unveil Dolly and ChatGPT. I mean, that and then Microsoft saying, you know, that Bing was going to use ChatGPT for and some of its search results really, I think, made the whole market sort of respond. and everyone's now trying to develop their own generative AI tools. But it's interesting to me that he both unleashed the beast into the world and he's now saying it ought to be restrained. How do you hold both of those things in your past at once?

53:38I don't know. I guess my perspective is that's just not going to happen. What's not going to happen? That it's just they are going to just keep building and we're not going to see regulation on this stuff. Do you think it's hyperbole when Sam Altman says we'll have to pull out of Europe if this bill passes? No. I mean I think that like you can you had you spoke to Gary Marcus about this about the feasibility of it exactly yeah I think that it would be quite difficult to keep up with those right with those regulations because they can basically and I think I'm going to characterize this correctly they can share like the wide body of stuff that was trained on but you can't be like this particular answer incorporated you know news stories from the New York Times and from NPR and stuff like that that actually pointing to the specific pieces of data is impossible given the way that these systems are built.

54:26So if they're forced to do that and they can't do that, yeah, I could see them saying, all right, listen, our goal is AGI. These are products that we've shipped to sort of help us get us there. We don't need to do it in Europe. It's not part of what we're aiming for. The legal reporter in me is really excited for two things. One, for OpenAI to be sued in a suit that actually makes it to the discovery phase. Not that I want any kind of judgment against OpenAI, but just for transparency's sake. to really open up some of these black boxes around the AI and the training data. You know, it'd be really interesting to have lawyers sort of probing into that and to make some of that information public.

54:59And two, when there's a test case about whether Section 230 ought to apply to some of the outputs from ChatGPT, I think that's completely uncharted territory and from a legal perspective, super fascinating. Ryan, any final thoughts? I'm just stewing on the fact that he said the legal reporter in me, which is a very... Bobby's good at court. yeah he really yeah haven't seen that side of him recently what do you want my pacer login get out of here New York Times yeah this guy he's always scooping this stuff alright folks thank you so much Bobby Allen thank you Ryan Mack for joining so great to spend the hour with you guys and great to see you again in person yeah this was a blast see you man super fun you want to shout out where people can find your work yeah truth social slash Bobby Allen you really have a truth social account should I hit this button to tweet from the NPR account yet or are we waiting for after no not yet not yet not yet um yeah npr.org and your tiktok no no okay ryan uh twitter still yeah hopefully what's your handle uh rmac 18 okay there's 17 other rmacs yeah yeah exactly blue sky if you have an invite um very exclusive yeah get me on blue sky i haven't i haven't um skeeted yet but you haven't yeah are you waiting for an invite or i see ryan I've been skeeting, but I haven't skeeted personally.

56:16Yeah, you're on there. I'm on there. I just haven't posted anything. You're on the blue ski. You're standing in solidarity with NPR on Twitter by not skeeting on Blue Sky. I don't want to see you skeeting anywhere. That's a commitment. Thank you guys so much for joining. Thank you NPR West and Culver City for having us here. This was super awesome. Thank you, Maggie Luthar, for hanging out with us in the booth and helping produce this. Really appreciate it. Thank you, Nate Guatney, for handling the audio here at Big Technology Podcast. Thank you, LinkedIn, for having me as part of your podcast network.

56:50And thanks to all of you, the listeners. Preview, we did this show. We were here. It was contemporary. Next week, my interview with Astro Teller from Google X is going to air. I just listened to it. I think it's one of the best interviews in this show's history. So I hope you tune in for that. And I'll be back on Friday with another live podcast with Ron Judd Roy. You can catch us on LinkedIn at 11 a.m. Pacific, 2 p.m. Eastern or here in the feed right afterwards. Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you next time on Big Technology Podcast.