#104 Divorce Lawyer: Why 53% of Marriages Fail | James Sexton

27:23I'm like, well, because they don't want to be married anymore. You know, like, you know that. But really what they want me to say is infidelity, you know, or financial impropriety or. But those are symptoms. Like infidelity is a symptom of the problem. The problem is almost always the same, disconnection. Disconnection from self and then disconnection from the other person. Because the two biggest problems are we don't know what we want and we don't know how to express it to another person. And the most dangerous lies are the ones we tell ourselves. I mean, I think in both of our lines of work, we know that.

27:59That like the most dangerous lies are the things you tell yourself. Oh, no, well, no, no, we're going to next month, next quarter, we're going to turn this thing around. Like the lies you tell yourself are so dangerous in marriage because you can't possibly identify what it is you need, what your partner needs, how you're meeting it, how you're meeting it. They're not getting met if you if you're not having an honest conversation with yourself and then ideally with your partner in some fashion. Yeah. You know, it's fascinating because one of the things Chris is really good at is he will tell me frequently, like we have to have the difficult conversations that most people want to push aside.

28:35Because if we don't, they're a little bit like a festering wound. Right. You just let it like rot away at the edges, rot away at the edges. And so, sure, it is about, I don't know, trash left on the countertop. It's not really about that. There's like something deeper. But see, Trash Left on the Countertop is a great example. Because Trash Left, like, it's not about the pasta. Like, Trash Left on the Countertop is not about Trash Left on the Countertop. It's about why are you not respecting our space? It's about why do you not know that that kind of bothers me? And if you do know it and you do it anyway, why is my feeling not important to you?

29:10Like, so that's kind of everything, you know? Like, how you do anything is how you do everything. and the passion with which you do it. Because if you think about it, that actually can be equally leveraged as a sign of love. Because if he doesn't mind having the thing on the counter and he knows you do and he moves it off the counter, then he's saying, I love you. Like, that's what that is. Like, he's saying, like, best example I have is throw pillows. Like, I would never have a throw pillow in my whole life. What is it with us? Man would be like throw pillows. Like we just don't. We just love them.

29:47But women love them. And so I really could tell I was in love when I was like, oh yeah, I should straighten the throw pillows up. You know? Because it was like, it's in no way important to me. But I'd love to believe that my partner would see that and go, he doesn't give a shit about throw pillows. Like, he likes me. Because that's what that is. Like, that's what that is. Like that's a sign of love. And to me, we never say like we rarely say these things out loud. Like we rarely say to our partner, these dumb little things you do that make me feel seen and loved and cared for. And these dumb little things you do that make me feel not valued and not cared for and kind of dismissed or ignored.

30:37But I feel like that's the stuff. And if we could if we could isolate on that stuff and find ways to have discussions about that stuff that aren't going to bring out defensiveness in our partner. Or we find ways to like engage in what I call loving behavior modification. You know, the best example I give of that is I dated. So, you know, I'm a lawyer by trade. So I have to do like I always have to be clean shaven. Like your husband gets to have the cool beard. You know, or he gets it for like 15 years. Oh, yeah. Now it's like he's bouncing back. Now he's like, fuck you. Or like Chris, you know, Williamson has the like, oops, I didn't know I was sexy stubble.

31:13You know, which is like, Chris is going to think I'm like man crushing on him now. But like, it really, yeah, if I was gonna, he'd be a good man crush. But the truth is, like, I have to be clean shaven. And I have one of those like thick beards that like, you know, so on the weekends, I tend not to shave. Because it's like, I have two days off from shaving. I don't have to go to court. It's good. Just like, you're never going to get me in a suit on the weekend. If someone invites me to a wedding on the weekend, I'm like, I'm not wearing a suit. It's not happening. I wear a suit five days a week.

31:36So I remember dating a girl and she had really sensitive skin. And so when I would kiss her and I was a little stubbly, like I'd be on the weekend, she would get like a little redness, you know, like you all have sensitive skin. And she would be like, oh, yeah, you're like your beard is prickly. And it really brought out something defensive in me. Like and I was very like, like, you know, like I would I wouldn't say it, but I find myself thinking like, you should be happy that I'm kissing you. And like now I got to shave when I'm going to see you and Monday through Friday. Like this is just this is great.

32:06Like I've never no break from this whatsoever. Needless to say, that relationship didn't work. Not solely for that reason, although maybe it was a symptom. The next woman I dated had the exact same issue, but she was a genius because I would shave. Usually it's on Monday morning if she spent the weekend or something. Monday morning she would come in after I'd shaved and she'd be like, oh, God, you're like so sexy when you're clean shaven. And she would like, like press up against my skin and she'd be like, you're like Don Draper in Mad Men. I love it. You know, dude, I wish I would shave like three times a day.

32:39Like I and I would, by the way, I was like a little kid. Like I would shave and then I would come downstairs and I'd be like, I just shaved. And she would be like, oh, my God, I love it. She was doing the exact same thing. She was trying to get me to shave for her benefit. But she went about it brilliantly because I really felt like, oh, this is like something she likes about me. And this is an opportunity I have to like, like become even more attractive to her and to have some praise from her. What was it? It was the exact same thing as behavior modification. but it was approached from this place of like positive reinforcement, reframing what it is that you want.

33:19And to me, like that's how in a successful marriage you shape the behavior of your partner. That's so good. I'm going to take this so literally because now when my man, when I want him to not have a beard, you can't listen to this podcast. Yeah. You got to watch, like you got to watch old episodes of like mad men and be like, you look so member when you were, Oh God, that was so hot. Most guys will be like, really? Okay. You know, like if it's going to if we're going to get laid from it, we usually will do it. We'll usually do what needs to be. Yeah. You know, you have said a few funny things about what men want.

33:50Yeah. And I think you had a funny answer that I liked to what the male version of flowers is. Yeah. Nudes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was very funny because that was actually off the top of my head. Somebody said, like, what's the male equivalent of getting flowers? I was like, nudes. Oh, wait, was that too quick of an answer? Let me think about it for a minute. Nudes. Yeah. Well, because it really is like, like we're visual. This is important, but it's that same, because what are flowers? Like it really isn't like, hey, something was alive and now we've killed it and you can put it in water. Like that's not like in and of itself a particularly romantic gesture, but we've assigned something to it, which is I was thinking of you.

34:31I wanted to give you this gesture of my affection. Like it's really what it is. well for men that's like a tremendous gesture of affection because you know that the old adage of of you know every every guy wants a good girl who's only bad for him and every woman wants a bad boy who's only good for her so true and it really is see read every romance novel and it's all that it's always like the hard you know so but with her he's gentle you know and like come on you're married to a seal for god's sake like you can kill people with a popsicle stick and meanwhile he's like soft and gentle and lovely with you like that's like the whole thing that's like every female fantasy right there and guys we really want someone who's like oh i've never been with a man and yet and bodice ripping you know it's like our thing so look if these are the archetypes of the collective romantic unconscious okay leverage it use it use it you know like i believe in living in reality and that's reality.

35:30So yeah, I think nudes is the equivalent of flowers. I think I've never ever heard of a man getting a nude from a woman he has a relationship with and going, that is not appropriate right now. Like wherever you, I've been in a courtroom and got one and went because it's true. Like most heterosexual men, I'm really talking out of school here. I'm going to get kicked out of the like bro club but like it is hard not to applaud when a woman takes her shirt off like it's hard not to like it feels like a bit like a kid at christmas even if you've seen these same breasts a million times you just you feel like a kid like oh my god it's just what i wanted those those perfect look at those i don't know why they don't really do anything it's like the flowers what do the flowers really do they smell nice for a couple days then you gotta throw out.

36:19But it's something about it, you know, like something that intoxication. If you can keep that, I think in relationships, like that's the good stuff. Like why would you let it go away? It's so low percentage of a move. Like to me, big investment with big risk. Okay, I get it. People are risk adverse. Or small investment with unlikely success. Okay, I get it. Maybe people don't want to, you know, fail. But like, if you leave your partner a note in the morning, it was so fun hanging out with you on the couch last night. I married the prettiest girl in the world. What does that take? 10 seconds. 10 seconds.

37:02What did it cost? Nothing. But what does it do? It's just saying, I see you. You're important to me. I want you to feel seen. I want you to feel heard. And this downward spiral that everyone who ends up in my office at some point starts and then gracefully finishes in the chair in front of my desk. It starts with, well, why should I do that? He didn't do this. Yeah. Like, why should I sleep with him? He's nothing but unfriendly to me. Well, why should I be friendly to her? All she does is dismisses everything I say. You know, like, and that's what I mean when I say, well, like, okay, You're both right.

37:39Like you don't owe each other anything. By the way, you don't even have to be married. So don't. Don't be married. But at some point you went, yep, eight billion choices. That's the one I want. And so why wouldn't you water that plant? Like why wouldn't you just take that? Because that spiral starts to work in the other direction. Like even if you kind of lost the plot, like you can get it back, but it's a little bit of a slow process. and the hard part is just like, you know, getting back in shape when you've fallen out of shape. It's like, you know, you don't go back into the gym for four hours and go, okay, this is great.

38:12Like you'll be so sore the next day you'll never be able to move and it won't accomplish much. But do 20 minutes a day for a couple of days and you'll start to get stronger and stronger and stronger. And it's the same thing. Just start those little gestures and see if that reconnection starts to happen and it starts to feed the other person, inspire them into do, because I'll tell you something. I feel like and I haven't tested the theory If you sent more flowers, you'd get more nudes if you gave more nudes, you might get more flowers Like I don't know which came first the flowers or the nudes the chicken or the egg But i'm telling you like there's something to be said for this There's something to be said for kind words and blowjobs There's something to be said for it because I don't know which comes first But i'll tell you right now you do one you'll probably get the other more often so I feel like there's value in that and it's the part we don't say out loud we say dumb shit like happy wife happy life it's a terrible line it's a terrible line that everybody says at the wedding like the uncle who says it at the wedding I should pay him a dividend he's like hey he made a lot of money for me but it really is I mean if anything it should be happy spouse happy house but but even that if your meaning is yeah just like do what they want you to do like just make them have like whatever it is like no no like that is not a recipe for success in this coupling that is supposed to be the paramount connection you have with another person but you know what is interesting is you talk a lot about infidelity and affairs a couple of the ways you talk about them were fascinating to me, which is you said affairs almost never start with sex.

39:52Yeah. What do they actually start with? They start with attention. Attention. You know, I think they start the way relationships start, which is you're interested and you're interesting. Yeah. You know, which is something that very quickly can go away in marriage. Like, because you've heard each other's stories. You've heard each other's jokes. You kind of, you know, you know each other. You know what to expect. By the way, it's part of the joy of being married is it's like, oh, I know what this person's going to like. I know what they think is funny and what they don't. And I kind of like the world is so mysterious and challenging and we have so little control that like knowing someone's levers, like I know it makes them feel good.

40:23I know it makes them smile. I know what food they like. Like that's a nice feeling. But there is something exciting about the mystery of another person and being interesting to someone. Because I don't think love is just about how I feel about you. It's how you and what you feel about me makes me feel about me. Right. Like there's something about when your partner looks at you like, wow, look at you, that you look at yourself like, yeah, look at me, you know? And it's kind of like your grandma saying, like looking at the old version of herself and going, oh my God, look at how good you looked.

41:01Like, look at how good I looked. Like there's something about seeing yourself through the eyes of this person who sees you with desire and excitement and fascination. like fascination it's pretty hard to have fascination for someone you've been with for for a decade and who like you've cleaned up their socks you know like it's hard like no one's a hero to their butler you know and and so it really is about like how do i still keep this sense of like excitement and fascination because an affair it usually starts as some other kind of interaction it starts as our kids are on the same softball team or or you know and social media by the way Like if we were going to invent an infidelity generating machine, it would be called Instagram.

41:43Why? Because it's putting us in touch with a bunch of people that we probably have no business really talking to. It's giving us benign neutral points of entry that we have no reason to feel guilty about at all. Because it's like, no, I'm talking. I added this person because our kids are on the same team or our kids are in the same team. We work together. But now I see you in a bikini. you know and I wasn't going to see you in a bikini before Instagram that wouldn't have happened you know I wouldn't have seen you out with your girlfriends wearing something low-cut like I wouldn't have started seeing you in this different setting as an object potentially of desire and by the way I don't know about your experience of social media but mine is everyone's posting their greatest hits while we live our gag reel and no one is in the hype moments of their life like when they're having a wonderful time taking out their phone and scrolling through Instagram.

42:36It's always when you're like bored or like on the toilet or like sitting and waiting in the waiting room at the doctor's office or on the subway. It's like some moment of kind of meh. And what are you doing in that meh moment? But looking at the most exciting, curated, perfect, filtered version of everyone else's life. So, of course, your life in that moment sucks compared to that. So now I'm seeing this idealized, stylized version of this other person. And we have some interaction. And it's benign interaction. We can message each other and like, oh, yeah, I see you guys. How was that? Where did you guys stay when you were in Greece?

43:11And then it's very easy to have like that little, because again, no one's watching. Like you're not posting it on the Facebook wall. These are DMs. So you're doing the like, you know, like, wow, you look great. You know, and it turns into, okay, now we're flirting. But we're just flirting. It's no big deal. And then that's how it starts, because it starts to feel really good. Like it feels really good because of who you feel like. Like you feel interesting again. You feel interested again. And that's what it's about. Like it's about that. It's not it's not about the sex. Like it really isn't about the sex.

43:46Yes, of course, sex is an important piece of things. And sex, I think, is the glue in marriages. Otherwise, just be roommates. Yeah. But like sex is glue. And without that glue, like, yeah, you start to you know, there starts to be some distance from each other in terms of like you are not the thing I align with sexuality. I think pornography has the same effect for men. If like 90 percent of your sexual outlet is women on a screen you will never meet and not your primary sexual partner, you're going to have issues with that. It's one of the reasons why I've said, and again, I'm not trying to be like the proponent of nudes here, but, you know, if your spouse is the kind of person who's a very visual person and otherwise would be very into pornography or you have to spend extended periods of time away from each other, having some nudes of your primary sexual partner and having them and looking at them as your, I don't think that that's a bad thing.

44:41Like you want to be the object of your partner's desire and you want to be the primary association they make with sexuality is you. So, again, what happens in these other relationships, it starts with just an interested connection, a benign, safe connection, and then it just turns into something different. It's probably why you're such a voice to this generation about marriage, because you're so straight talking. It's almost like we're not allowed to say these things anymore. I know people say that about, they're always like, he's so blunt. He's so blunt. And you're like, no, it's pretty actually obvious.

45:15Yeah, it seems like really obvious. And rational. Yeah. But we're just told that's politically incorrect. No, no, we just don't talk about those things anymore. And so because of that, we have all these narratives that really do not help us progress in marriage. Well, I have a safe place that I can do it from because in a world where it's very easy to get canceled and where therapists come in or researchers come in and say, well, this is what my research has shown or this is what I've studied. I'm just telling you who's sitting in front of me in the chair. And like you can't pretend they meant to be there.

45:47They didn't. And you can't be like, well, but you don't really know. No, I do. Like people lie to their therapists all the time. They don't lie to their divorce lawyer. Like there's absolutely no profit in lying to your divorce lawyer. If anything, you got to tell me all your stuff. And by the way, it's protected by attorney-client privilege. I've never once told any client confidence in any public setting. I take my oath as an attorney very seriously. I anonymize everything that I talk about publicly. And the truth is, yeah, but I get to see a really honest version of this. And people talk to me about like you get to know your divorce lawyer.

46:19Like we you know, we have a really intimate relationship and that you have to be really honest with me. And I get to know your finances and your kids and your parenting and your substance use issues and your mental health issues and your whole family history. So I get to know you really well. And in 25 years of getting to know people that well, like you really see human emotional complexity because I've I've represented the cheated on and I've represented the cheater. And I've represented victims of domestic violence and intimate partner abuse. And I've represented perpetrators of domestic violence and intimate partner abuse.

46:53And I have to tell you, you spend enough time with people and you figure out like, OK, these are hurt people hurting people. And they did not set out to do that. And if only there were just evil people and we could just sequester them from the good people. But it's not true. Like the line of good and evil runs right through the human heart. And none of us wants to cut a piece of our own heart out. And so when you spend time with people and start to realize, okay, like horns and halos isn't really a thing. Like people have moments. Like I'm sure if I looked at the best moment of you as a wife and said that's what kind of wife she is, I'm giving you way too much credit.

47:40Way too much. And if I look at the most impatient crap moment you've had as a spouse where you just really missed it. Not good. And I said, that's who she is as a wife. I'm not giving you enough credit. The truth is, it's kind of about like ratios. It's kind of about how it works. And I think that's what I get to see is when it's failed catastrophically. And that gives me the ability to just go, look, don't get mad at me. That's how it is. You know, I feel like I know a lot about this because I watched your new favorite show, which is the Kardashians show about divorce attorneys. How did you make it through the first episode of that fever dream of a show?

48:22I like everything Ryan Murphy has ever done. I'm such a devotee of every American horror story. That show made my eyes bleed. I think you are missing the brilliance. You know what? That's a fact. I am absolutely missing any scintilla of brilliance. There is, I actually see it as a brilliance black hole. Like it is the event horizon of brilliance. It's gone. Watching you watch the vagina entryway part was just, that was like, that's peak internet. There was a line in the first episode where they say, Kim Kardashian's character says to one of the other people, come work with us. In two years, you'll be a multimillionaire.

49:06And I went,

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50:16Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com slash podcast. That's indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. In divorce law? Like in divorce, you think in two years you're going to be a multimillionaire in divorce law? By the way, with offices like that. And she also too, it's like Kim Kardashian's character is driving a Bentley, has, I'm sorry, are you in venture capital? Like, what are you in? Because divorce, like, listen, Listen, we're not wearing sackcloth and ashes.

50:55We're doing all right. But like I can't. There's only a certain number of hours in the day I can bill. And there's only so many like I have a bunch of lawyers working for me, but they're not me. So people eventually would go, where's Jim? I hired him. Like if I'm going, oh, no, no, I'm not your lawyer. I know you hired me, but here's Bob. He's going to be your lawyer. Like people eventually get very mad about that. Like if your therapist said, I'm not going to be your therapist this week. I have Steve. He's come in. He's going to do it. You'd be like, yeah, we're not doing that, you know? So I just don't know.

51:22So maybe they could have just spoken to like one actual divorce lawyer and made some aspect of it with the all star amazing cast that they have. I loved it so much. I know. I'm a terrible person. I got to leave. I'm sorry. I know. I've never walked off of the show. You know what my actual favorite part? And like I was like, I think I'm a Kim Kardashian stan now, like which is not something young Cody would have said. I got no beef with Kim Kardashian. I really don't. Because you were her divorce attorney. I really don't. No, I was not her divorce attorney. in California. I think she had Laura.

51:54Laura Wasser is amazing and a beloved colleague and a super talent. No, I think that she... She's amazing at outrage, though. I think she planned it all. Maybe. Like, even her... She did this post that I was like, God, the internet fascinates me, like, psychology of how people engage on the internet. Yeah, crowd of it. And in the same way, like, I find you fascinating because you seem to feed off of, you know, when people get amped, you're like, nah, it doesn't fucking bother me. Yeah. And I think she's like that on the internet. Yeah. People get empty. Well, listen, that entire family has figured out how to leverage, you know, people's emotional state into something very profitable.

52:29Yeah. I don't want to try to be an armchair psychologist of Kim. But what I will say is I have a son who's 28 years old and he's a lawyer. And I'd never pushed him to be a lawyer. I really was find something you love as much as I love what I do. because I'm blessed to be one of those people that, one of those rare people that does not spend five days a week looking forward to two. Yeah. You know, like I can't wait to get back to work. I love it. And I get the feeling that, because her father was a phenomenal attorney. Her father was an amazing attorney. I mean, he's legendary in the legal profession.

53:05His skill is a trial lawyer. Yeah, he's a criminal defense lawyer. But he was an incredibly gifted courtroom lawyer. Those are big, big, it's a big shadow that man casts. So my heart really goes out to her because I didn't know her father, but I can't imagine that he would not be incredibly proud of her. Like she is such a successful business person. She's a mom. She's so many things so well. But I think there is still this piece that goes, yeah, but I want to be a lawyer because it would be like something he'd be proud of. And so if that's what this comes from is this desire to keep taking the bar and trying and I'm cheering for her.

53:48You know, I'm cheering for her. I hope she pulls it out. But I don't think she needs to do it to have her father be proud of her. I think he's probably incredibly proud of her. I say that as a father. I know it goes back to your big heart. I mean, one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about was prenups. Speaking of famous people. Prenups. Prenups. You, there was a video I saw where you gave Taylor Swift some advice pre-Travis Kelsey, which was one word a lot of times repeated. Yep. Taylor. Prenup Taylor. Tell me. Obviously, do you think everybody should get a prenup? Yeah. Well, I'll take it a step further.

54:21Everybody has a prenup. Everybody has a prenup. It's either one that the government wrote, or it's one that you and the person that you've decided you like other than the 8 billion other options. Who do you think is better at it? Have you been to the DMV? You ever walk into the DMV and go, oh yeah, these people should be in charge of everything. This is great. Like I've never been in any government office and went, oh yeah. Oh yeah. These people, let's put them in charge of everything. Like if you don't do a prenup, you've decided that the state legislature of the state in which you reside at the time you divorce.

55:00Okay? So not even the current government, a future government you haven't met yet, they'll do a better job than you and your partner. That's insane. Whether you're on the left or the right or the like, you know, unhappy middle. But I think we can all agree in the last 10 years, both sides of the political fence have said the government sucks, right? In 2016, the left was like the government sucks. 2020, the right was like the government sucks. Like everybody suddenly, you know, okay. So can we all agree then that signing up for a contract, because that's all marriage is, a contract. Okay, you're signing a contract.

55:40unlike by the way every other contract you ever saw you know as a business person get it in paper sign contracts yes handshake deals are important principles are important get lawyers involved put things on paper okay all right and you put them on paper while you're getting along you don't go well my partner and I we get along so good we don't need to do every business that fails and as the ugliest courtroom battle it's because we were friends and we trust each other we need to write things down and then when it goes wrong and when it's successful that's when it falls apart. That's when everyone goes, well, wait a minute, we'd agreed to that, but that was when that, so you get it in, get it in writing while you're getting along.

56:13Okay. So are you going to say the state legislature in the future, I trust them so much that I'm going to say whatever rules they think are fair, I agree to. And by the way, if they change the rules, I'm okay with that too. And I can't opt out of the contract. Like if you lease, if you, like a simple contract is a car lease. So let's say you lease a Porsche and halfway through the lease, they go, by the way, your payment's staying the same, but now we're giving you a Honda Civic. You would be like, well, no, then I'm out of this contract. Well, imagine if they could say, yeah, sorry, you can't opt out of the contract.

56:53We can change the contract, but you can't change the contract and you're in the contract no matter what. Well, that's what you're doing if you marry without a prenup. So I think the reason why prenups are so dramatically on the rise now. Are they? Absolutely. Like what percentage of people get a prenup? It's very hard to say because prenups are not filed anywhere. They're only filed when they're filed as part of a divorce. And when they're filed as part of a divorce, they're in a sealed matrimonial file. And people lie about prenups because I will tell you, I represent a lot of celebrities and athletes and I have more than once been watching you know Access Hollywood or Entertainment tonight and they're interviewing a celebrity who's getting married and they go so did you guys do a prenup and they go oh no we don't need a I'm like you're lying it's in my safe like it's in my safe you signed it at my conference table two days ago why are you telling people you don't have a prenup because I understand why because it's this like no that's how much we love each other is we just trust that we're never going to get divorced like which by the way you know again I tell people because I represent a lot of people in finance because I'm a divorce lawyer in New York City.

58:01I always tell people, don't look at marriage like gambling or like buying a stock. Because a stock, if you invest a million dollars, it can go to zero. Getting married is like shorting stocks. Like there's no amount, there's no stop loss. Like it's just like they could change the law anytime and really screw you and you can't get out of it. So there is so much value, in my opinion, what's happening with younger people, they're pragmatic. When I say younger, I mean in their 20s, their 30s, the demographic that's getting married. They're just starting to say pragmatically, like, yeah, we got, by the way, all of us, all of my colleagues, we all see a dramatic increase in the number of prenups that we're doing.

58:42And then there are, you know, it's also getting easier to do prenups. You know, one of the ventures I'm involved in is trustedprenup.com. And what we did is we We basically used like AI. We used large language model and several hundred prenups that I've done in various financial situations. We fed into this thing. That's brilliant. And we created basically like a online kind of choose your own adventure of how to do a prenup. We guarantee it's it's, you know, airtight ability, it's enforceability. And we basically say valid in all 50 states and we make it affordable to people. We've democratized.

59:17What does it cost? $599 is the price point for it. If you want to have attorney review, meaning that you want to have an attorney licensed in the state in which you reside, review it for you and also have one for your spouse, it's still under$2 ,000. To put that in perspective, the retainer most divorce lawyers take for drafting a prenup is$15 ,000. Oh, I remember. So yeah. So it's a much, much cleaner, easier way of doing it. And again, do I still think the old fashioned way of going and hiring an attorney and having your question answered. I think that's a great way to do it. But the way we did it on trustedprenup.com is I've counseled so many hundreds of people on prenups.

59:54We just made all these little videos of me answering the most common questions that people have about their prenup. And at each stage along the way, when you're trying to decide which option to take, you can watch a video of me answering that question. So it's a way to just sort of make this scalable. And again, we did it really to democratize prenups because everyone has a prenup, again, it's either one that's written by the government or it's one that's written by these two people. And to me, that's a no brainer. So good. What is the craziest prenup you've ever seen? I mean, I've seen a lot of crazy prenups.

1:00:26I will I will say to one of them I've talked about before, and that is there was a prenup where for every 10 pounds she gained during the marriage, she lost$10 ,000 a month in alimony. And it was enforceable. That was the funniest thing, is that a court upheld it. And the judge who upheld it, who was female, said, I want to say, I don't know why you married this man. This is a boorish clause. It's disgusting. But it's a contract and the two of you signed it and you had a lawyer and he had a lawyer and it's enforceable. So it was upheld. Now, I'd say here's why lawyers are weird. I mean, it's one of the many reasons.

1:01:03But when I read the provision, I remember thinking, oh, I could work with this. because if I was her, like you have to have a baseline weight. Yeah. So I was like, all right, just like put like pennies in your pockets and wear your heaviest clothes. And then if you get divorced, be like a pro fighter, like wear the sweatsuit, be in the sauna, get butt naked on the scale and like strip it down as much as you can. But here's what I'll tell you. There was something honest about that prenup because he was an ogre-ish fellow and he had a lot of money and she was beautiful and didn't really bring much else to the table.

1:01:39And I think they were honest about the economy of that relationship because I think relationships are an economy. I don't think that's a dirty word. I think that if an economy is an exchange of value, then you marry someone because there's an exchange of value. You give value, you receive value. And what value is worth what is a very subjective concept between those two people. And it's very hard to quantify like, oh, how much is this worth or that worth? So that's the most crazy prenup I ever saw. I see a lot of prenups where people make insane demands. I'm seeing a lot of it lately and I'm seeing it more with women where women are.

1:02:16because I do a lot of prenups for guys in finance. So they're in their 30s or 40s and they've got, you know, 10 million, 20 million. And they're marrying like a yoga teacher or they're marrying like a, you know, someone who just does not have the assets that they have and is usually beautiful and brings that to the table and more fun than them because they've had their head down and been, you know, you've been at Goldman, you know, they got their head down and they're doing their thing. They're working the hours. and you know they the men very quickly are like yeah just i wanted to waive everything like unless it's in her name like if it's in my name it's mine if it's in joint names okay we'll split it 50 50 if it's in her name it's hers but nothing nothing she gets nothing no alimony no anything and i have seen a lot more women now say okay like i'll do a prenup but i want i have some things i'm gonna want.

1:03:11Like I want in the marriage and some things if the marriage ends, because you can put in a prenup some of the things that we want in the marriage too. So I've had women that are like, oh, I want to push present. If we have kids of no less value than this, I want this many vacations of no less value than this. I want a monthly personal appearance allowance that'll like cover like things I want for my self care. And they're being very pragmatic about it. And there's a little more pushback. And I think that that, you know, that's an interesting thing to me. I think I actually don't, you know, there are probably some people that would be judgmental about that transaction, but I really do think at the risk of getting misty eyed about it, that I don't think you can feel loved if you don't feel safe.

1:03:56And I think a prenup is about both people feeling safe. Like I'll give, but do I have to give everything? Like, will I get my legs chopped out from under me. And, you know, I need security. Like I need security. If you're going to be the breadwinner and I'm going to be a supportive other, and I'm going to like diminish my lifetime earning capacity by not pursuing other ventures, or I'm going to give you my skinny years, or I'm going to whatever it is, like I need some security. And I think a rational person who wants their partner to feel safe would go, okay, I get that. So what is it? Like, what's the answer?

1:04:29I don't know that the answer is half of everything I have, but there's probably an answer we can come to. And I think just having that conversation is potentially an opportunity for us to like talk about some important things in this relationship and what we mean to each other and what we owe each other. It's a good point because I've seen a lot of, so I went through kind of, I'm almost 40 now, I'm 39. And I remember like my first round of friends who all got married. And we lived in Dallas and most of us got divorced. And for whatever reason, we all got married kind of young. And I was the first one.

1:05:03Yeah. And then they would call me later, you know, and kind of be like, how does it happen? So you talked to a divorce attorney. How much does that cost? What do I do with the finances? I was probably one of the only ones that worked and I was, I made the money then. And so they didn't know where any of the money was. You know, there was a lot of hidden stuff for them. You know, the men obviously felt like I did all the work, but they felt like they had all the babies because it was Dallas and everybody was having babies. and there was like this massive amount of fear, I think on both sides, which seems like it's not good for divorce because when you're both scared, then you do crazy things.

1:05:38And I wonder how much better many of them would have been if they would have said the quiet part out loud first. I think all of them would have been better. I think premarital education would have been really good for everybody. Like all of the people that talk about, oh, no fault, divorce is bad for our culture because it makes it too easy to get divorced. Like, I don't believe that for a second. But I think if you actually want to change the divorce rate, we have to create barriers to entry. Like, I can't get a driver's license without taking a written test, passing a vision test, then passing a road test, then having a probationary license for a certain period of time.

1:06:20Marriage? 50 bucks, Elvis will marry you in Nevada. Like, that's it. Like, you don't need a pamphlet. You just did the most legally significant thing you're going to do other than die. And you didn't get a pamphlet. Like the first time most people learn what legally happened when they got married is when they're getting divorced. Like you don't have to be a black belt in Brazilian jiu-jitsu to tell somebody the worst time to learn how to fight is when you're in a fight. Like if I asked your husband, when's the best time to learn how to shoot a gun? Is it when I'm in a gunfight? No, that's the worst possible time.

1:06:52Like literally any time in your entire life prior to that moment would have been a good time to learn. Right. So why don't we just have some basic premarital education? Why don't we have some sense of, hey, by the way, you're opting out of the title system. Your estate rights have automatically changed on both the state and federal level when you got married. Like most people have no idea. So why not? Like, why not have everyone asked to spend one hour with a divorce lawyer before they can get a marriage license? That seems very fair to me. Like, it seems like something that would be useful for people because at least that way they'll know, take this thing seriously.

1:07:32And I know what my downside risk is. And look, I think anybody, one of the beautiful things about being in a relationship, in my opinion, is the ability that you're not doing all of it yourself. you know like maybe you like to cook and i like doing dishes you know or maybe you don't mind taking the dogs out and i don't mind doing the laundry like and there's this sense of like hey like let's both figure out what it but here's the thing you should know how to do laundry like i'm not saying like if i don't mind doing laundry and you don't really like doing laundry cool i'll do laundry like if you like let me tell you something we're in a relationship you can handle the finances.

1:08:10Knock yourself out. You're better at it than me. I'm a good lawyer. I'm not a great businessman. Perfect. Here you go. You're in charge of that. I trust you enough. You're in charge. Okay. But I should know where the accounts are. I should have some basic, we should have a meeting once a month where we go, okay, babe. So you remember this is all here. And remember I invested in this and here's what's going on with that. And just so you know, just, you know, God forbid something happens to me, you'll know where everything was. But again, there's this sense that like, no, no, it's like Voldemort.

1:08:37If we say it out loud, if we say like, well, what if we ever split up or what if one of us died? By the way, one of those two things is definitely going to happen. Like one of you is going to die or you're going to get divorced. Definitely. Guaranteed. Like you're both going to die. Definitely. That's just reality. So why not just say, hey, we need to both know how to do some things. Like if you don't like to cook, I'm not saying you have to learn to cook if you're going to be in a relationship, but like your partner's going to be a way sometimes you have to know how to like okay i know how to like scramble an egg i know to do some basic girl dinner yeah yeah something some bachelor dinner like learn how to make some little thing you know because again otherwise you're creating a situation where there's this imbalance of power that i don't think is good i don't think it's healthy long term when you talk to a judge do you talk like that no you're really calm no i have to do a whole character yeah no What's the character?

1:09:32Well, here's what's funny. You know, like, there's a saying that fame is the mask that eats into the wearer. Oh, God, that's a bar. Some of these people know me now. So, like, I give them a little more Sexton. Yeah. I get to be a little more. Like, this is you. Yeah, this is me. And I get to be a little more me. Yeah. It's a very polished up, non-profane version of me. But there's a lot. It depends on the judge. Like, I'll tell you, a good lawyer knows the law. A great lawyer knows the judge. And, like, I know which judges, like, enjoy the Sexton show. Right. So there's some judges when I'm trying cases, I can pull some shit.

1:10:04You know, like I can do the show and they don't want the steak. They want the sizzle. And then there's some judges that they like, they know that I'm a showman and they're expecting that and they don't like it. So they don't get that. They get the very, if it may please the court, your honor, you know. And at the end of the day, like, yes, I have this very performative streak and I'm a trial lawyer and trial lawyers are closet hacks. Like we all want to be like, you know, comedians or actors. But I am a law geek to the core. Like, I love this job. I study the appellate division decisions as they come out.

1:10:34Like, I know my trade. And I love what I do. And I know the law. And I've memorized most of Black's Law Dictionary. Like, hearsay is a statement made by the declarant other than one by testifying at trial or other proceeding offered into evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted. Like I have, I have it all in here and, but I still like to put on the show. But at the end of the day, like if the show's not going to work, okay. Like, and that, that's, what's interesting about this profession is people will come into my office. It's the only job where someone will come into your office and go, I heard you're a ruthless son of a bitch.

1:11:09And they mean it as a compliment. Like, like I was described by New York magazine as the sociopath you want on your side. Now, I get misty-eyed talking about dogs. I'm clearly not a sociopath. But it's like sometimes that's what the tool, that's the task, right? Like the task is like there's cases where I need to be like the ruthless, sadistic person who's going to cross-examine you to death. and then there are cases where like my job is to be conciliatory and friendly and keep the energy of it you know in a calm place and you know there's a there's a saying I memorized years ago from recess because people used to say to me like how do you represent like how do you like eviscerate someone on cross-examination like how do you go at someone the way you have to as a lawyer sometimes and I think anyone who's ever been in the military and had to be in combat or anyone who's ever had to like do things that feel like harsh or amoral or immoral.

1:12:11There's a line from Bresa Sardonicus where he said, I've resigned myself to temporary complicity with evil in order to accomplish certain specific objectives for people whose suffering is more important than my need to maintain moral purity. And so I feel like in my line of work, I don't have a need to maintain moral purity. Like I represent the good guy. I represent the bad guy. Like I'm a weapon and you point the weapon and a weapon in the hands of someone who's a good person can protect and save. And a weapon in the hands of a villain is a very dangerous thing, but I'm the weapon. And I don't always believe in the client, but I don't just represent the client.

1:12:54I represent the system. And I always believe in the system. Like I think our legal system is a good legal system. It's, It's got problems. Like we have the worst legal system except for all the other ones, you know, and I believe in it. And I think you get to be part of justice happening. Yeah, it's interesting. My husband always says this line from Ender's Game, which is about war. Yeah. And how we will debate the morals of war after we've won it. Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's a lot of similarities. Well, and I think your husband would understand what I consider to be, you know, the world needs bad men.

1:13:30we keep the other bad men from the door. I think that's true. And I think that that's something what you, what we have to do. And I think that a lot of, um, the first 20 years of my profession was about becoming a weapon in a courtroom and, and honing that craft and honing that skill. And about five or six years ago, because I wake up at 4am every day and it's really quiet. I just started writing the book just as sort of something to do to use a different muscle. And I started to write this sort of like reverse how to book. It was like a how not to, like how not to screw up your marriage. And I suddenly like had a book.

1:14:14I found I'd written a book. Like you write a page a day, in a year you got a book, you know? And I remember thinking, oh this is a completely different thing like and i wonder if this will hurt the world's perception of me as this like weapon and as this and i'm very happy to say it hasn't no tell them the title in the uk again i really like the title yeah so the title in the u.s is how to stay in love practical wisdom from an unlikely source and in the uk is why i love the uk is how to not fuck up your marriage which i thought i like it better i like it better i like it better but i do like this cover a lot too and i think one of the interesting parts too i've met like we have a dear friend whose name is roy altman and he is the one of the youngest i'm gonna get it wrong he's a judge in uh florida and i think one day potentially will be on the supreme court and he is an appointed judge okay federal judge okay and anyway his uh memory recall of both the law and quotes and scripts reminds me a lot of you in a different way it's a wild thing it's a weird skill you guys have but it's in the book too and in your quotes which is this interweaving of 25 years of experience from being an attorney but also this like double life you have of reading all of these laws continuously and then i mean i have to assume that you're a big you seem you've mentioned a few poets oh yeah oh yeah yeah no I'm very I read constantly I love literature I love poetry I love film I love art I I am I I've always been a person who loved to travel and to sort of take in things from other cultures so yeah I I think that everything I do is infused like my Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu my interest in feudal Japan and sort of the ideas of like you know Bushido and the warrior code and things like that, that infuses my practice.

1:16:07Like my, my, my undergraduate degree in psychology and my interest in Carl Jung, my interest in psychedelics, like all of the things that these have all infused what it is that I do. My, my upbringing, I was raised very religious. I was raised very, uh, dogmatically Catholic and then went all the other way and became a total atheist and then somehow found myself back in like this happy agnostic middle place. Um, yeah, I think that all of it infuses, you know, the way that I, I think how you do everything, anything's how you do everything. I mean, I really do. I think that we, if we bring the fullness of ourself to whatever the task is, it's going to be infused with all the best parts of us.

1:16:48It's so good. What is your favorite? Just as like a pure, this is a curious question for Cody, not even for anybody listening, but like you've mentioned a few poets and a few fiction books. What are your favorites? What's your favorite poem of all time? My favorite poem of all time. Is it the Brodsky? Probably would be a song by Joseph Brodsky. I think that's a beautiful, beautiful poem. A summer one. Yeah, I love that one. Gosh, of poems. I think Allen Ginsberg, some of his poems are incredible. There are, I would say, Let It Enfold You by Charles Bukowski. Charles Bukowski. Yeah, so I would say probably my two favorite poems other than a song by Joseph Brodsky would be Bluebird by Bukowski and Let It Enfold You.

1:17:31Let It Enfold You, I think is, I still can't get all the way through Bluebird without crying. Get out. Like if I read Bluebird out loud, I get halfway through it and start crying. Oh, mine is On Writing by Bukowski. Have you read that one? Oh yeah, that's on my own. Fucking that cute. Especially as an author, you know, that line about like the libraries of the world have yawned themselves to sleep, buy another book as a business card. You're just like, fuck, you're right. Don't write a shitty book. But it's interesting. You like cynical Bukowski. Yeah. And I like this world has exhausted me and somehow I haven't given up Bukowski.

1:18:10Like Let It Infold You is about like how broken he was and he still found beauty in the world. And Bluebird's about that too. So those are my two favorite poems. But I don't think on writing is cynical by Bukowski because the last lines about like, you know, either it'll die inside you or you'll die if you don't write it. No, it's meant to be inspirational. It's not cynical. But he was also a psychopath too. Yeah. Some of his stuff. Yeah, I mean, some of the greatest artists I think are in all genius. There's madness. I mean, I've represented some of these people in their divorces, some musicians that are incredibly gifted and they're really disturbed people.

1:18:50but authors I mean I would say I think the book that I find most powerful to me is all the light we cannot see by Anthony Dorr yeah I think that's a beautiful book because I don't I think what it's about isn't what it's about I think it's about like what does it mean to be human and and love and the the complex nature of human beings um I just read an amazing book by an author named jason green it's a pretty new book it's called unworld um arguably it's about like artificial intelligence but it's really not it's it's about grief and loss and love it's it's still in hard cover it's a brand new book i bought it as like on a whim anthony jeselnik recommended it and i was like oh i'll get it and i bought it i was going to vegas just for like to play blackjack and have a nice like fun weekend and i'm sitting by the pool at the palazzo crying yeah that's good like crying Like crying like a little like like because there's some passages in it that are just so well written that I would get mad at it because I was like, I'll never write anything that good.

1:19:54But also like some of it is just so it's so moving of a book. It's just about like what is what is consciousness? What does it mean to love someone and lose them? And I'm sitting by the pool at the Palazzo like like really like tears coming down my face trying to like look like, oh, no, I'm just, you know, I got sunscreen in my eyes. But it was so Unworld by Jason Green. That would be another one. But yeah, I mean, poetry has always spoken to me. My mother was very moved by beauty and I was very lucky for that. I'm thinking about her a lot today because it was 10 years today. And whenever I think about her, you know, the longer that she's gone, the more I see the pieces of me that are born of her.

1:20:42Because those pieces are like the only way I get to see her now. And something about her that was so amazing that I didn't understand when I was a kid is how she would just be moved to tears by things. Like she'd be singing along with a song and just start crying. And as a kid, like I was like, like, what's the matter? like you know like did you like skin your knee what are you doing and it was just and she's like oh it's just so pretty and I would find myself going like oh wow okay like like and and that was okay you know and I I never I never let the experience of being a man beat that out of me yeah to still have the ability to have yeah to still be moved by beauty like I would cry from beauty much more than I ever cry from pain you know and so I think poetry is still a way to like deeply connect to that.

1:21:28With this book, who do you hope reads it and what do you hope they take away? Gosh, there's a whole bunch of people I hope read it. I hope that people who are just getting into relationships read it because I think it could give them some skills that they can use early on because I think it's a whole lot easier to stay in good shape than it is to get super heavy and then try to lose all the weight. So I think like it's a whole lot easier to like stay in love than it is to be in love, let it fall apart, neglect it, and then try to find your way back. But I hope that some people find it who maybe are starting that slide and say, okay, is there a way to turn this thing around?

1:22:07I hope some people who are way down deep in that valley of it will read it and either realize, okay, that maybe there's a path or, okay, there isn't. Because I think, you know, you and I have both found in our lives that sometimes happily ever after means happily ever after separately. And that, you know, the barn burns down and now I can see the moon, you know, like, and I think that, you know, you, you are the sum of all of these things, you know, and, and as two people who divorced and then found love after our divorce, and even my ex-wife, she's been remarried for 15 years to an amazing guy.

1:22:46Our son just, our oldest son just got married a couple of months ago and we're all at the wedding together. And I'll tell a funny story we're sitting at the wedding together and my uh my daughter and my now daughter-in-law um they were law school sweethearts my my son and she's this brilliant lawyer and she's beautiful and she's smart she's just a amazing young woman and they wrote their own vows and so my son you know gave his vows and they were very lovely he he has some of his dad's performance skills um and he uh but he's more intelligent he's more like academic and wonky and then she started her vows i'm gonna try to get through this without getting misty-eyed and she's like you know you're the strongest man i know you make me feel so safe like you're and i was like oh shit like i taught him the cow says moo like i i had some peace in that like and that this was the goal like this was the goal to make that kind of man that a woman that amazing would feel that way about and so she's reading these vows and all of a sudden you know just that's it you know tears are start pouring out of me and uh my niece is sitting next to me like very subtly hands me a tissue you know thank you and my ex-wife who's sitting next to me who I'm still friendly with leans over and goes you're such a fucking pussy and I was like yep that's my life that's my life right there you need both you do yeah yeah it was like the real yin and yang you got him yeah it was amazing it was an amazing moment and I told my son about it later he's like yep that's mom that's mom I feel like I kind of like her yeah she's great oh I do too please there's a lot of people I love who wouldn't want to be married to oh same She would say that about me.

1:24:44She was like, oh, Jim's great in the rearview mirror. Like, he's a great co-parent. I'm a great ex-husband. By the way, the skill set for an ex-husband, the resume for an ex-husband, totally different than for a husband. Like, I'm bad at husband. Husband, I have to be like, tell me about your day. Oh, really? I'm not. I'm like, come on, we got to land this plane. Like, let's go. Come on. I got to skip to the end, you know. and I but ex-husband ex-husband reliable punctual reliable when it comes to the kids the check shows up on time everything great I was great at being an ex-husband I always joke with with my husband I'm like nannies I have a lot of rules when it comes to nannies that I want to end on this one actually I want to get your take on it yeah and my two main rules are I have age and weight minimums and they're pretty high they're pretty high because I've seen what people do with their nannies well you know there's a chapter in my book called everyone's fucking the nanny okay it's true so am I right Do age and weight minimums help?

1:25:37No, they don't help. God damn it. They don't help that much. I mean, definitely don't go for like the super hot Polish nanny. Like the Brazilian pair? Terrible idea. Absolutely not. Well, I'll tell you two nanny stories very quickly. Okay. One is, I tell in the book, there's a story about a guy, they hired a nanny. The husband decided to try to convince the nanny to have a threesome with he and the wife without telling the wife he was going to try to encourage her to do this. and then went to the wife and said, oh, the nanny wants to have a threesome with us. And the wife was like, I don't think we should do that.

1:26:09And the nanny was like, I don't think we should do that. And he was like, no, no, the other one wants this. And he somehow convinced both of them. And so they ended up having a threesome. It would happen every couple of months. They'd have threesomes together. And then one night wife is out and he says to the nanny, hey, she's not home. Why don't we, the two of us? And she's like, well, that wasn't the deal. The deal was I thought we were doing like a group thing and he was like oh no it's no big deal she'd be fine with it and the nanny a couple of weeks later says to the wife by the way you know the other night he approached me like and said it would be okay with you and the wife was like uh yeah that's not okay with me the p.s of the story the wife left him for the nanny and they lived happily ever after last time this was like 12 years ago they're still together that is the best karma I've ever heard in my whole life yeah so I was like that is the risk of trying to convince the nanny to get involved in a threesome.

1:26:59But I talk about in the book what I call the nanny fascination. And I actually think that there's a fairly benign explanation for it. And that is that the nanny in some ways represents a lot of the aspects of the wife before you guys had kids. She has a life outside the home. She has interests outside the home. She is still something of a mystery to you and you're a mystery to her. She likes the father because he's like the dad and it's kind of cool. And, you know, and he's also there's a you know, there's an economic aspect to their relationship that makes it very simple. That it's like I pay you, you take care of the kids.

1:27:34And what I said, the solution to it is, is actually not hire really unattractive nannies, because there are some examples even of celebrities who have left for far less attractive people. There's a lot of celebrities have left for nannies and a lot of non-celebrities have left for nannies. And I actually think the secret is a pretty easy one, and that is reclaim the parts of yourself that were part of the nanny. Like I think that a woman, particularly when you have children, there's a tremendous temptation to spend a lot of your time and energy focused on your children, to take whatever time you have left over, focus it on your husband.

1:28:06And I think that there is tremendous value in really continuing to have the you, the me and the we and to take time to be yourself, like to do the yoga class, do the Pilates class, go out with the friends, join the book club, do whatever it is that made you uniquely you and kept you as something other than just a mom. because being a mom is such an all-consuming task that, of course, it's understandable to say, I want to devote all of my attention and time to it, but there is tremendous value for you, for your spouse, for your kids, for the betterment of this ecosystem that is your home in maintaining your connection to your true self and who you are independently of the family.

1:28:48So I think that's the lesson that can be learned from the nanny thing, but yeah, the nanny thing's a thing. God, I knew it. This is so good. Yeah, you got to be careful with the nannies. So family members always the best like I've never I've only had a couple of divorces where someone was sleeping with someone's family I've done a few of those cousins sisters I'm just gonna have to not ask you some questions, you know, cuz I don't want to know You know what's funny is I've been doing this so long that every once in a while Like I'll I'll share with somebody like something that happened in a case and they're like, oh my god I'll go.

1:29:17Oh, I guess that is weird. Yeah, that's a but you just don't like you just don't you know to like it I don't know. This is what I do. That's so true. Yeah. I just see, I navigate this weird world, you know? Well, I just want to say thank you so much for coming today. I have loved going down the rabbit hole. I want people to follow you on all the socials. I find your TikTok and Instagram to be fascinating. I like the show that you're doing now too. Better call Sexton. Yeah. Where you have people ask you questions. Yeah. Really good. Yeah. And then obviously read the book. Gotta stay in love. Appreciate it.

1:29:48James, thanks for being here. Great to see you. Absolutely. Thanks, God.

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