#86 Negotiation Expert: Stop Arguing, Start Winning | Kwame Christian

23:26But then when she was in residency, we had the baby and I was launching my company. it was very tough. We didn't have as much time. And I found myself having these conversations with her, these arguments, because I had these needs because I was feeling lonely. Then I realized, wait a second, I have a challenge with being alone. I cannot handle solitude. There's a difference between enjoying solitude and being lonely, right? And whenever I was by myself, I felt lonely, not experiencing solitude. So I recognized that what I needed to do was learn how to satisfy myself by spending time with myself and recognize that I am just as legitimate of a partner to spend time with as her.

24:08And so whenever we find ourselves over explaining, we have to recognize that we are giving away our power to other people, seeking something from them. And if we can find that source within ourselves, now we're going to be more empowered communicators. Yeah. Is there some sort of trigger or reminder that you tell yourself when you hear yourself over explaining in an argument to stop yourself? It's probably not very kind to say out loud. My internal voice can be very harsh sometimes. I feel that, me too. But I think it's just recognizing, wait, like, what are we doing here? What are we doing here?

24:46And you have to be self-aware enough to recognize that in yourself. And one of the things that I've started to do that's helped me when it comes to these conversations in general, and I'm giving people the license to just watch trashy TV now, is when you are watching reality TV and you see these conversations break down, because they will, they will break down, I want you to start to pay attention to why they break down. What is happening? What was the inflection point that led to the conversation going left when it should have stayed right? What is it that this person seems to need that the other person cannot give them, right?

25:22And sometimes it's so much easier to see that challenge in other people than it is to see it in ourselves. But once you start to get into that habit of identifying those challenges in other people, then it helps you to increase your own self-awareness in the conversation. I was listening actually to a friend of mine, Chris Williamson, talk about lately how he sometimes asks himself, if your life was a TV show and a bunch of people were watching you, what would they be screaming at you to do right now that is so obvious to them, but not obvious to you. And he was talking about it from more of a life experience perspective.

26:00What do you do next with your life? But it's almost interesting to think about it from a, it's almost like we're moving back. You talked about it like commenting. How can you go up to the commentator's box? How can you look down on the field and say, this is very obvious for Kwame down here, but he can't see it because he's too close to it. Yeah, well, something that I've done is it's actually something I got from a client. So they said, whenever I'm in a tough conversation, I just ask myself, what would Kwame say in this conversation? And then I say that and things go well. And I was like, damn, why don't I do that?

26:31When I'm struggling, now I say, what would I tell a client to do? And it becomes very clear because here's the thing. It's really easy for us to give advice to other people, right? Think about so many people who give advice are not taking their own advice, right? And so if I just take a step back and act like I'm coaching myself and say, huh, what would you tell somebody else to do in this conversation? It becomes really clear. And it's humbling, Cody. It's so humbling. Now, you promised me that you had some responses, some comebacks. Like what do you do to get it? Like what are the best comebacks to use when you need them?

27:09So here's the key. First of all, in effective negotiation and effective communication, the goal is to speak less than you listen. right? So I follow the 70-30 rule. So I try to get the other side speaking 70 % of the time. I'm only speaking 30 % of the time. And so for me, if I really want to break somebody down, what I'll do is I'll start asking really pointed questions, not in a clearly leading way, but I want them to explain themselves. So if you're saying you believe this thing or you think this thing is right, I'll just say, okay, can you help me to understand how you came to that conclusion?

27:41Okay, good. All right. So it sounds like you believe this because of this reason, right? Good. So I'm going to show them, hey, listen, I'm still listening to you, but I'm going to help them to build their case. And as they're building their case, I'm seeing the vulnerabilities. And then I'm going to ask a question that exposes a contradiction. Earlier you said this, but I've seen this as well. So can you help me to understand that discrepancy? Right. And so I don't even need to say anything, Cody. I just need to help them to recognize that they are off base. And the thing is, in these situations, I'm not trying to hurt them or dominate them in the conversation.

28:17I just want them to come off the point. And a lot of times people don't recognize that a lot of their strongest beliefs are built on bias and really nothing else. It's vibes and nothing else. There's no substance to it. But they might be imposing their beliefs on you without recognizing that they don't even understand why they believe what they believe. And so what you do, instead of telling them they're wrong, you help them to figure out how wrong they are themselves. So you give them the injection of humility by helping them to realize that there's no substance behind their argument. And the key to that is really just questions instead of statements.

28:53Exactly. So you are showing the gap each time by asking questions continuously as opposed to what I do in arguments, which is like you said this. Why did you say that? Those are statements which just lead to more conflict. Exactly. So think of it this way. I think about Newton's third law of motion, right? Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. So Kwame's first law of argumentation is every point has an equal and opposite counterpoint. So every time you make a point, they're going to keep coming back at a point because you know they're not listening. It doesn't matter how right you are, Cody.

29:26They're not listening. So and then let's bring it back to psychology. Let's talk about why this happens, because you talked about fight, flight or freeze. This is the amygdala, the limbic system activating. We want their frontal lobe to be activated. That's where rational thought comes from. So we have to recognize that there's an antagonistic relationship between the amygdala and the frontal lobe. So the more emotional they are, the less clearly they're thinking. The more clearly they're thinking, the less emotional they are. It's an either or proposition. So you can be as right as you want to be.

29:57And it doesn't matter. because the part of the brain that processes logically just isn't working. So good to know. We talked about how do you talk to somebody who doesn't or that you don't like. How do you talk to somebody who doesn't like you? What do you change? That's a good one. That is a good one because, first of all, we have to understand where that comes from. Sometimes it's vibe like oil and water. We're not compatible. Sometimes it's because of what happened in the past, right? And so in those conversations, what I want to do is instead of just focusing on the actual argument or conflict, usually the problem comes long before that.

30:40It's a deficiency of trust, right? Deficiency of likability. So when we think about it very, very basically, let's think about this fundamental rule of trust. Trust is gained in drips, but lost in buckets. You make a mistake, you lose all of it. But in order to build it up, it takes time. It takes repeated interactions. Think about this other thing. Have you ever had a situation where you heard a song and the first time you hear a song, you're like, it's okay. And then you keep on hearing it over and over again. Then you're like, man, I vibed to this. I like this, right? So in psychology, that's called the mere exposure effect.

31:15So the more you're exposed to a stimulus, as long as it's not negative, if it's neutral or positive, you'll start to like it more. And so the problem is, Cody, a lot of times with certain people, we only interact with them when there's a problem. We only interact with them when there's a problem. So you're not Cody. You're just bad news to them, right? And so we just need to warm up the relationship and lower the stakes of each conversation. Let's find ways to interact with each other, even if it's two minutes, five minutes, just a little positive. positive, warm interaction. Those little things really matter.

31:48What do you think the ratio is of negative interactions to positive interactions to make sure that you have that mirror exposure effect positively? Studies say it's five to one. Yeah. And I was doing a coaching call earlier today and I talked about that because they were talking about how hard it is to give feedback. I said, one of the reasons why it's so hard is because we don't give positive feedback. We don't do positive reinforcement. We don't tell people when we like them. And so the only time we have a conversation with them about performance or something that they did is when something bad happens.

32:18But we don't take the time to realize this fact. Usually if you're not bringing up anything about their performance, it's because they're performing well and you don't say anything about it. And so we have to take the time to give people real, legitimate compliments when they perform well. And when you start to actually give a person a real compliment, it hits them in their heart, right? It hits them differently. Not like, oh, that was a good job. No, let's be specific. So you want an example? I'll give you an example. So there was a, actually, I think I was in your hometown. I think it was Austin, Texas.

32:51I was talking to an Uber driver. And so she was talking about the work that she does in the community. And she said, oh, I always thought by this age I would have kids, but I don't have kids. But I just really pour into my community. I try to give back as much as possible. I volunteer. So I was just hearing everything that she was saying. And then at the end of the ride, I just paused. And I was like, you know what? You might not have achieved that one goal, but it seems like you actually have more children than you realize because of the impact that you've had. She cried. She cried. I'll be crying.

33:24She just cried, you know? And so you have to take the time to listen, understand what people really, really want, and then tell them with specificity. Let them know that you see them because a lot of the people today, they just live their life completely unseen. Oof. So if you were going to put this into practice, what would you tell people to do with members of their team and with their loved ones on a more consistent basis? Are you keeping track of positive to negative interactions? What could people do right now today to make better relationships knowing this kind of crazy framework? Pick up your phone right now.

33:57Think of somebody they care about. Tell them why you appreciate them. That's it. No reason. No reason. No agenda. That's it. That's one really meaningful deposit in the relationship. You know, it's funny you say that because my husband does a great job of this. He will often, when he thinks of somebody, send them a text and just say, hey, I'm thinking about you and here's why, you know, whatever real reason. And then say, by the way, that was all like, no need to respond. Just wanted you to know you're on my mind. Yes. Which is also kind of a gift too, because you're not saying, hey, you have to open this conversation.

34:27Just know that you're being thought of today. That's it. Which I thought was really beautiful. Yes. Let's go to the opposite side of this. Like, how do you expose bad behavior in communication? In the way that they are communicating? Yeah. So how do you, like, let's say right now you're in an office space, you know, you're with your coworkers and, you know, you know that the way that they're operating is not basically on ethic, maybe not what you want them to do. And you've maybe even talked to them about it before, but you kind of can't get them to see your side. You don't know how to point out that what they're doing is not correct or you feel that it's not correct.

35:06Like, how do you expose that bad behavior and communicate it in a way that they could hear it? Well, first, to that challenge, one of the biggest problems is that you might be the only person who recognize that there is a problem. So you have to be the person bringing the conversation. And then overthinking holds us back. And then the conversation almost seems irrelevant because we've overthought it so much that the behavior has passed far in the rearview mirror. So first of all, we have to just give ourselves a shot clock for action. So when I see a problem, I say, okay, Kwame, yeah, you're about to start overthinking this.

35:39You're not going to do that now. You got 24 hours to respond. That's what I tell myself. So first, it's an internal negotiation. That's the first thing. Then how we actually start the conversation, I like to use the framework of situation, impact, invitation. So situation, I'll describe the situation using naked facts. So facts that are stripped of all interpretation, judgment, or opinion. So no matter who you are, what you think, you can say, yeah, that is what happened. Then impact, what impact did it have on me? I'm going to personalize it, not globalize it. Because if I globalize it, then they could say, no, it didn't have that impact.

36:11No, I'm going to talk about me. And then invitation, when can we talk about it now or later? So let's say the person is constantly turning in reports late and it's making it really tough for you. So what you'll say is, hey, Cody, I wanted to have a conversation with you because we needed the report on Monday and then we didn't get it until Wednesday. and this made me want to reach out to you because when that happens, it makes it hard for me to do my job. So I wanted to chat with you to see what we could do to get back on track with the way that things are going, right? Really simple to say, hard in emotionality, but by making it so small and simple and without over explaining as you're going through it, you can make it a little bit more palatable because our goal is to get into the conversation without unnecessary resistance.

36:58Yeah. As opposed to probably what most of us do, which is like the report is late again. Why didn't you send it, Susan? You're always late. Like, what do we have to do to change this next time? Right. Yes, exactly. Because it starts off with an attack. Right. And then to add to that, you use the word why, which often triggers judgment, which almost guarantees that you're going to get a defensive response. Right. And so a lot of times we blame other people for their performance in these conversations. But we don't realize that a lot of times they are simply responding to the way that we address them.

37:30And how else would they respond in that type of situation? So we want to make sure that we are not coming into the conversation with more friction than is required. And a lot of times the conversation is doomed from the get-go simply because of how we approached it. So if you want somebody to change a behavior, is it wrong to ask them why they did X thing you don't want them to do? You want to understand why, but you want to try to avoid using the word why, because why is associated with judgment. So any question that could start with why can be transitioned to what or how. So why did you do it that way?

38:08You could say what led to that decision? Or how did you come to that conclusion? Right? Or what problem were you trying to solve? Those type of things. So you can still get the same information because that's vital, but you want to do it in a way that's less triggering. That's so fascinating. So that's just like societally we have realized that whenever anybody asks us that, it's judgment. Oh, yeah. Think about when we were kids. Why'd you do that? Why'd you do that, Kwame? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. If I'm answering something in class and the teacher's like, why do you think? I was like, sounds like I'm wrong, professor.

38:37Why don't you just tell me why I'm wrong? Yeah. Well, I think the – some of what you've talked about is like how to be at peace while arguing. Yes. and arguing from a place of peace. Because you already talked about it. It's really hard when you've sort of hijacked your amygdala and you're all emotionally charged to remember not to use the words why or to take a step back. So what do you do when you are really mad and charged in order to de-charge the situation and have a conversation? Yes. Right now, get up to 15 % off Select Storage Solutions. Put heavy-duty HDX totes to good use, protecting what's important to you.

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39:57Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required, compatibility and availability varies 18+. first of all in our preparation we often take the time to prepare strategically but we don't take the time to prepare emotionally right we just go in and say i'm going to tell him this i'm going to tell him that i'm going to tell him this then they say the thing that hurts our feelings and we break down right we could have seen this coming so i want to think through all of the things that could really upset me that could really like throw me off my game and say all right if this happens then i'll respond in this type of way so i can essentially emotionally rehearse it kind of like an Olympian, right?

40:36With Michael Phelps one time when he won one of his 85 million gold medals, he was like the water got into his goggles, but it didn't really matter to him because he had mentally rehearsed it so many times. So when the conversation actually happens and the person says that thing in your mind, you're like, I knew that was going to happen. I knew you were going to say that and it's not going to hurt me. I'm not going to give you the satisfaction of showing an emotional response in this situation. Now, even though we take the time to prepare, we will be humans and sometimes our humanity will show, unfortunately.

41:08And so in, especially if it's a business situation, Whitney has informed me that this does not look good in a marital situation. I usually have a notepad, right? And so if somebody says something that triggers me or something like that, I have my little notepad and I'll just say, oh, that's a really good point, Cody. Can you give me a second to take some notes here? I'll take some notes. Cody, Usually I'm not writing anything. I'm just pissed. I'm just like, oh my God. And so I'm saying, all right, I'm running through compassionate curiosity internally because it was designed for not just the conversation with other people, but the conversation with yourself to calm yourself down and get clarity.

41:46So I'll say, okay, what am I feeling? I'm feeling angry. Well, anger is typically a secondary emotion, not a primary emotion. What else am I feeling? Well, I'm feeling disrespected. Okay, then I'll get curious with self-directed compassion. Why do I feel that way? well we've had this conversation a number of times and i don't know why she keeps on bringing this up right and so i can do that in about 10 seconds and then i can come back composed with a question to get the conversation back on track yeah i really like to take notes too during arguments chris has also told me it's frowned upon arguments but and i think it's probably because they think that you're not listening yeah um but it is relatively hard to deregulate or downregulate without like physical symptoms.

42:28You know, you could like, like breathe out or like shake your hair or like, you know, and when I start to get agitated, I move a lot. You know, I start like, I'll start twitching or I'll like start of looking around or I'll like start biting my lip. And I now know sort of what my triggers are. So I can tell like, all right, I'm at a two, I'm at a three, I'm at a four. But sometimes, especially with our closest people, it's hard to find a way to downregulate that isn't really telling and doesn't become a bigger trigger. Have you found any way around that? My move is my toes. So it's like I need to release that tension.

43:04So I'll just kind of squinch my toes, make it a tactile meditation again, make me feel a little bit more grounded. That's really helpful. Doing box breathing. I know your husband is former military too. So just taking the time to control my breathing. But what I do that's different. is I'd prepare beforehand. So because if I don't prepare, who knows, maybe it looks like I'm hyperventilating or fuming in the moment. So I'd actually prepare in the mirror and I would practice this. Can I take a really slow, deep breath and do box breathing without it being perceived? That too takes practice. And so I'm actually going to think through my emotional regulation tools before the conversation.

43:44I think about my four-year-old, right? He's been having some tantrums recently. and I've been informed that's what four-year-olds tend to do. I was taking it personally. I'm like, I teach people to be calm. Look at this kid. And so I realized I was trying to get him to do his deep breathing while he was angry. Then it hit me. The reason why he can't do it is because he's never practiced. I'm asking him to perform on game day with no practice sessions. So I just taught him this cue. I said, okay, let's pretend like you're blowing out a candle, and I'll do this while he's happy. Right? And so now that he has reps of doing that without him having a tantrum, now he can do it during a tantrum.

44:26We need to treat ourselves the same way. What do I look like when I'm taking my deep breaths? Can people see if I'm starting to really freak out if I'm taking notes and balling up my feet? And so now I might be able to – I still have that tension. It doesn't go away, but I have a better way of processing it now. That's so useful. It's also useful because then it's not a tell in like a negotiation. Exactly. You know, it's one thing with with but I guess it's all a negotiation because even even in a marriage when you kind of let the other person know you're frustrated. I think that that is also like they're like, why are you frustrated?

44:59I'm the frustrated one. You know, there's a natural inclination for that. So I love that. I know who I'm sending this episode to Chris, my husband, also to every partner that I ever work with. Who are you guys sending this episode to? If you felt like you got something out of this episode, the only way we grow is by you all sharing it. And I think given what happened with the last episode, a bunch of you guys are starting to share this thing. So show somebody you love them and you want them to be able to communicate better. You want them to be able to get what they want out of the world around them and share the show.

45:30A lot of people get told that they're too sensitive. You know, hey, you're too sensitive. Why are you worrying about this? You always take things the hard way. You know, why are you taking it that way? I didn't mean it like that. What do you do when someone tells you you're being too sensitive? And how do you respond back to that? Well, first of all, for the person saying, hey, you're being too sensitive, I just want them to know that's ineffective. The person isn't like, oh, my gosh, I'm resilient now. That's not how it works. Right now, if you're in that on the receiving side, and I think this is something that is not done enough times.

46:09because we're afraid of how it is perceived or we are afraid of not being able to save face. It's just saying, I cannot have this conversation right now. I can't have this conversation right now. Right. I think in relationships, especially we, our conversations are almost doomed from the start because when do we typically have our arguments with our spouse? It's like after eight o 'clock, nine o 'clock, you have decision fatigue, you're tired, you're grumpy, you had a lot of work to do. And so now you're saying, you know what, I'm going to have a really heavy emotional conversation and do it well, we're setting ourselves up for failure.

46:40So I think in those situations, when that happens, just recognize you can give yourself permission to take a pause, even if it's five minutes, just say, hey, right now, I cannot have this conversation. I know it's important. I can't just give me some time and I'll come back to you. Right. And then maybe we negotiate when we have the conversation, not actually negotiate that thing. So I think giving yourself some time and space can help with that emotional regulation. I think another thing too, too, especially I've coached people who are criers. And the thing about crying is that the more you try to stop crying, the more you cry, right?

47:12And so when we have these behaviors, just you have to have a better story for it, because people are going to see it and then they're going to put their own narrative on it. They're going to frame it as weakness or fragility, whatever it happens to be. No, it's passion for me, whatever it happens to be for you, right? So before going into the conversation, you might just say, hey, listen, I want you to know that this is something I care deeply about. And when I care about something, sometimes tears come and I don't need any help. I'm okay. I can still have the conversation. I just want you to know where it's coming from.

47:44And so that helps you to manage your emotions because you're not fighting not just the emotion, but also the feeling of judgment. But it also helps them to say, okay, they told me this is probably going to happen. That's fine. I'm not as threatened by it. right because i think oftentimes if the other person starts crying let's say i know this has happened to me previously like if i've had a friend that cries a lot and and at some point you know if you're really good friends with them like i am with this person you're like ah you know i just stop i just go oh no you're crying opt out but actually that's not very mature either because then that means that i can never get across the thing that i need to say to them and And so then resentment builds.

48:25So your take would be when you start crying, you just let the person cry. Yes. And also let them know that you're not judging them for crying because it just weighs on them. They don't like that they're crying. They're trying to stop crying, which makes them cry more. And then they think that you're judging them too. Then it just kind of falls apart. So back when I was mediating, what I would do is I would give them the tissue and they're like, I'm so sorry for crying. I said, listen, in this situation, it would honestly be odd if you weren't emotional. So it is completely okay. Take the time that you need.

48:56And that helped them to calm down because they knew they weren't being judged. You must have crazy stories from when you mediated. Great stories. So you were mediating divorces? No. What were you mediating? I am not that bold. This was just court cases. So litigation, lots of business, landlord, tenant, that type of stuff. and one of the things that was unique about the way that I mediated and I got this compliment from one of my colleagues too she said Kwame I've in my life I have never heard anybody get people to laugh as much as you do in mediations and it can work really well but laughter and humor in tough conversations only works if you are funny if you're not funny it makes everything worse Of course.

49:43Yeah, yeah, yeah. Crying while trying to fake laugh at somebody. That's a nightmare. It is awful. That's crazy. One of the things that I wanted to talk to you about is like in those, let's say you're mediating something. And mediating, are you in the same room? So like you're in the middle and they're on both sides? Great questions. No. They're in different rooms. Yeah, because I found out, and this is kind of groundbreaking. When I put two people in a room that hate each other, bad things happen. You know, so what I would do is I would do shuttle diplomacy and I'd be the mouthpiece for both of them.

50:14But as we started to get closer to an agreement, then I would bring them together. But again, I would negotiate their behavior. Like, listen, don't do this. Don't do that. Let's get it together. Because I know that once I leave, these two people are going to have to coexist. They have a company to run. They have some kind of dispute that needs to be settled. And the relationship continues. So I want to get some positive momentum of them being able to communicate with each other respectfully. even when I'm not there. So toward the end, that's when I'd bring them together. How do you manage when someone is speaking over you?

50:46There are a few different ways, right? So first of all, we have to recognize emotionally and not emotionally, personality wise, extroverts are more likely to do this. They probably don't even recognize it's happening. So bringing awareness is going to be important, right? And I think just saying, hey, by the way, I wasn't done making my point when you started speaking. So if going forward. If you could just let me finish, that'd be really helpful. Just a simple statement like that. Right. And then, um, in those situations also, you probably don't feel heard as people are talking over you too. So when you recognize somebody is not listening, a simple thing you could do is just say, Hey, listen, I feel like I'm having trouble getting my point across out of curiosity.

51:27What is it that you think my point is in this situation and just put it on them. And so what ends up happening is they can't explain it. Of course. Now, this is not when you dunk on them and say, ha ha, you're a jerk. You weren't listening. You just say, hey, okay, my apologies. You mind if I have another shot at explaining it to you? And so in that situation, they realize, oh, I thought I knew, but I don't know. So now is when I need to listen at this point. So there are a couple of different things. But I think usually if somebody interrupts you, it might be a personality type of thing. And it might be a power dominance type of thing.

52:00Just expect it to keep on happening. And it will start to diminish as you start to employ these techniques, but you have to make sure that you still have that resilience and you don't get to the point where you're getting emotional because then you get thrown off your game, right? Because if you just recognize its personality, then you don't take it as personally. Are you able to detach and just think about this as a game now? Oh yeah. So here's the way I think about it. So for me, it's not as much of these conversations as tools to get what I want, even though I do quite frequently. It's a game in terms of how calm can I stay in this conversation?

52:39How self-aware can I be when the person said that thing? Oh, I felt that flutter. I felt it. I caught it really fast. Where did that come from? Okay. Yeah. I, now I understand what that means about me. What does that emotion mean about me? So I treat these conversations as meditations. They're tools of self-awareness. So when somebody interrupts me, I say, okay, how did that make me feel? When I'm not getting what I want, oh, that might be an indication that in this conversation, I feel a little bit powerless. If they're not giving me that thing and I feel that flutter of fear, then I'm saying, oh, that's some weakness inside of me that I need to work on in that moment.

53:17So it's not even about the outcome anymore. It's about learning more about myself through the process of these tough conversations. That's really useful. It all starts with your frame. Now, you've helped Fortune 500 CEOs and really big deals go through. What is like one brutal truth you wish you could tell every big time deal maker that they probably don't already know or don't want to hear? Oh, that they don't want to hear. In my time doing my own negotiations, consulting on these deals, learning from the best in the business with the podcast, we only need three core skills to be a great negotiator.

53:54After 1600 episodes of the podcast, that was the disappointing reality because I didn't want it either. I'm a professor of this, right? So I teach at the law school. I like to be really tactical. I love to go deep into the tactics and the strategies, right? But when I push the best negotiators in the world to tell me stories about their toughest negotiations, what do they fall back on? These three core skills. Listening, asking questions, and managing emotions. That's it. And when you think about a tactic, all the tactic is, is a combination of those three skills used at the right time, in the right moment, in the right way.

54:29That's it. And so a lot of times these are, these deal makers tend to become tactic hunters. I want to get the newest and best tactic and everything like that. But at the end of the day, listen, ask questions, manage emotions, yours and the other sides, and just create an intentional connection with the other side. That is what wins the day the majority of the time. And I think people aren't willing to just put down their barriers and connect human to human, especially when the deal gets really, really important and the numbers get really, really big. But if we remember that it just comes down to that human connection, that's the edge.

55:03Then we can make these tough conversations a lot easier. Have you had Chris Voss on your podcast? Yes, I did. He was great. He's great. So he's a buddy of mine. And I just went and saw his Broadway show. And it was so interesting because that through line was through all of it. He was talking about, you know, this guy that took a bunch of hostages in the Philippines and how he pulled him back from basically murdering these people and decapitating them and dropping their bodies everywhere to at the end of the conversation saying to the negotiator, well, I'd work with you again. Thank you for this.

55:33And letting them go. Yes. And so and it wasn't some perfect little mind game that he played. It was can I listen to them? Can I repeat back what's happening to them? Can I stay calm? That's so fascinating. Okay, let's end with this. Have you ever regretted leaning into a tough conversation? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And it was for me running a company, being a leader, I didn't fully understand my role for a very long time, Cody, because my identity was as a negotiator. But as a leader, I need to be a leader who happens to have negotiation skills, not a negotiator running a company. Here's why the distinction is so important.

56:14because as a negotiator, one of our mantras is separate the people from the problem. Separate the people from the problem. The person is not the problem. You can work with them to solve the problem. But for me running a company, and I'm sure you've had to come to this conclusion yourself too. Sometimes you work really hard. You try to be collaborative. You provide feedback and then you realize, oh, the problem isn't outside of the person. The problem is the person in this very position right now. And I kept a lot of people on life support for way longer than I should have, because I recognize that it was a little bit of that, that those echoes of people pleasing from my past.

56:52I recognize it was a lot of ego and hubris saying, no, they might've had trouble in the past, but I am so brilliant and persuasive that I can persuade them into functionality. And it caused way more harm than good. So that was something that was really, that I had to learn the hard way because sometimes after repeated conversations and leaning into the conversations, the continued conversations in itself is the problem. It's very vulnerable to share because, you know, it's never fun letting somebody go. And it's also never fun being the person letting go. And you're right. I think a lot of times, It's like the thing women do.

57:32We're like, I can fix him. They're like, girl, no, you can't. He's broken before. He's broken now. Get out of there. You know, sometimes that's just okay. But it's a really good point too. I mean, I remember one of my favorite bosses when I was struggling with a person on my team that wasn't working. And I remember him saying to me, I just want you to go around and ask the leaders at this company, the ones that you respect, only the ones that you respect, how many times they have let somebody go that they thought they really needed to let go and move on to the next thing have they regretted it oh my what do you think the answer is zero kwami i never get zero is it like zero is a crazy answer to have and now i play this game where i go around to events and uh and i always ask them two questions one is if um somebody came up to you as a business owner and asked you to sell your business at the right price and the right terms on the right day, would you say yes?

58:31And obviously that's a hundred percent of people, like especially, and if they don't raise their hand, I always go, you're too soon in your company. You haven't been doing this long enough. But the second question is, you know, have you ever let go of somebody and regretted it? And the wild part is I've never had somebody raise their hand. And listen, that could be confirmation bias. Certainly there's many reasons why, but I think often we know, we know when we have to let go of somebody and we have tried. And I don't even mean firing. It could mean let go of a relationship, let go of a partnership.

59:00And so I think that's really, um, that's really humbling to share and not enough of us do that. Yeah. Yeah. We have learned the hard way sometimes, Cody. Right. Um, what would you leave people with who are scared to death of having difficult conversations and do not think they can get better? Everything's practice. Everything's practice. If we just assume, especially in our career, if we continue to improve and have higher level opportunities and responsibilities, then the conversation we have today in terms of gravity is going to pale in comparison to the conversation we have next year. And so if you think about this conversation as an opportunity to build your skills and practice, then the thing that scares you the most should actually excite you.

59:42Because the more ridiculous they are, the more emotional they are, the tougher the conversation. It's like, great, this is a good rep. I'm getting stronger for this. Even if I don't get what I want in this conversation, I will build my skills in a way that puts me in a better position for the future. So if you have this just continuous learning mentality and recognize that every conversation is just practice for the next one, then it takes a little bit of pressure off of you and helps you to lean in on the tough ones. Love it. Yeah. Curiosity and practice. Better than a whiskey. Kwame, you're the man.

1:00:14Where should everyone go to follow you? This is so useful. I follow you on Instagram. Thank you. But tell people the handle that you want them to follow you on and where. Yes. So Instagram and TikTok, it's Kwame Negotiates. And then the podcast doesn't negotiate anything, but I'll break some news here now. I'm actually going to rebrand it to the Kwame Christian show so I could talk about more topics too. So I like it. After 1600, you're like, well, there's only three, so I got to add some word to the list. I love that. Kwame, Thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.