The Psychology of Cheaters (According To A Divorce Lawyer) | James Sexton

27:36It's the invitation to like, try to help your partner every day, see the best parts of themselves because you try to keep that in your own line of sight. What do you think that women get wrong about what men want in a marriage or relationship? What don't we understand? I mean, men and women get so much wrong about each other because we just, again, And I've been thinking a lot about this in my own life because I'm 53. And I think it took me to like 52 or 53 to learn that when a woman says to me, do you know how hard it is to be a woman? That they're not saying, and it's easy to be a man. like i don't know why in my heart and in many people's hearts when i say to you do you know how hard it is to be a man sometimes why your first reaction is to go i'm sorry do your hormones fluctuate wildly every 28 days do you have to fit your feet in heels do people when you're working tell you you should be at home and when you're home tell you you should be working like really Because it's so easy being, well, what if I just said, you know, it's really hard to be a man sometimes.

28:58You went, really? Tell me about that. How? Because I've never been a man. I don't know. I have a bunch of them in my life that I care about. So I'd really like to know. Like, what's that like? Tell me what's hard about it. You know? And I only learned that, like, in the last couple of years. That, like, stop hearing it that way and start hearing it as, no, I don't know what it's like to be a woman. I can try to imagine when you describe it to me, like, do you know what it's like to be objectified? Do you know what it's like to feel like you don't know if someone's taking you seriously? Do you know what it's like?

29:32I don't know exactly what that's like. I've had examples in my life of circumstances where that happened, so I can feel some empathy when you describe it to me. But the first step is for me not to hear it defensively. So true. And I think in relationship, that's a big, big piece of this. One of the things that women right now get really, really wrong because the culture is jamming it down their throats is that any time a man says anything about what's difficult for him, that it turns into a pissing match between the two of them of, do you know how hard I have it instead of you? and there's it's just so dismissive and unnecessary like we all have things we're grappling with and if we love each other we can hear that without it being defensive i also think one of the mistakes i see a lot of women make in relationship is mistaking like saying well you should have talked to me about that but not creating conditions where a person can feel safe talking about something like telling a woman something she doesn't want to hear is not something men are good at we don't like it it's not fun like when you guys are upset there's nothing more frightening to a heterosexual man than the sound of a woman you're dating saying what's wrong nothing no no it's definitely something like what's the something no nothing it's fine oh my god like it's definitely bad like what what did i do what did i say something going is it me did something i i think creating conditions where we can have conversations with each other about like what's really going on here and where we can disappoint each other a little like where i can i can tell you something you don't want to hear like i can't tell you how many women come in and their husband's cheating on them and they say like well you know it's he's humiliated me like if he just and and i'll read the papers that they filed and i'm like they hadn't had sex in seven years and she's like well you know he never told me that and you're like wait a minute wait wait like you're you're telling me if he had sat you down and said listen i feel like we're really physically disconnected and i feel like my eye is starting to wander and i don't want to go down that road but like we really need to reconnect somehow that your response would have been well thank you for sharing that with me it's hard for me to hear that but i really appreciate that you know the answer would have been well what the fuck do you want from me like you're never home And then when you get home, you're all kinds of stressed.

31:59And I'm supposed to just like show up in a negligee in those circumstances. Come on. Like it turns into this defensive thing. And again, men are partly to blame for that. Because when you go like, well, how come we're not having sex anymore? Okay, we're off to a bad start. Like that's going to bring out nothing but defensiveness. Whereas if you said, you know, I drove past that restaurant that we went to. Remember that weekend when we first were dating and I drove past it. And all I could think about was how I remember after that we went back to my apartment and we like didn't leave the bed for like a day and a half.

32:27That was like the best, man. Like I just, I think about that day sometimes. Now we're in. Now we're in. I'm like priming the pump now because now you're like, okay, come with me. Remember? Come with me. Remember how fun that was? Remember when we were so connected to each other? Remember how close we felt to each other? And use that as the entry point to be like, you know what? We should make time for that. Like, I'm sorry if I don't make time for that. Like, I love feeling that connected to you. Now we're having the same conversation. Why haven't we been as physically connected? But instead of it being a criticism, it's about come with me to this place where we used to be together and somehow we're not there anymore.

33:07And that's your fault and my fault and everybody's fault and nobody's fault. I don't care. I don't care whose fault it is. I just want to be there with you. I still think you're wonderful. Why is that the natural state for relationships where we get so defensive with like our partner in a way that almost I don't think we get defensive when anybody else gives us feedback? well i think we feel like safe venting with our partner because it's like no you're here you're stuck with me there's a sense of that like marriage you know marriage is like a moat around a relationship like a lot of people are like i'm gonna put this moat and then it'll we'll have this ring and that means we'll be together forever it's like no it doesn't like that's you know i have a friend mark delaney who's a psychedelic facilitator and uh he he often says to me it always makes me laugh.

33:54He's like, relax, nothing's under control. Like, relax, nothing's under control. Like, and it's true. Like I try to tell myself that all the time. I'm like, relax, nothing's under control. Like there's, because marriage is a symbol. That's all it is. It's a symbol. We've decided we're going to create this legal connection or spiritual connection that's going to symbolize this way of keeping the relationship safe. It's an illusion. It's not real. it's still worth symbols are worth something like i think we live in a world of symbols like i'm i'm wearing one like i i could go to court and do a really good job cross-examining somebody in shorts and a t-shirt it's just my brain you don't need the rest of me like the ferragamo shoes don't do it like it's but why do i wear this it's a symbol i take this seriously it's a symbol of i i am wearing this because i want you to know i take this interaction seriously that's all marriage is is a symbol you're just trying to create this symbol of our but to then think that you've now really dug a successful moat around this thing and it's impervious to the slings and arrows that are coming at the relationship you're kidding yourself so true if anything it actually makes you maybe drop your defenses you're like oh no we got the moat we got this thing around it now we're good we're married no it's not safe the illusion that it's got a wall around it and a moat around it will make you forget that it's fragile.

35:21Love is not permanently gifted. It's loaned. And maybe remind yourself regularly that there were 8 billion options and you picked this person and they picked you. So why not protect that thing? Yeah, the symbol is so true. I mean, I do think about why I take Kim Kardashian so seriously on her show is the outfits. I think it's exactly right. You know, you could literally never let me live that down. Every the minute, you know, the minute that show got renewed, you texted me that day. That day. I love it. It's so campy and amazing. And every time the outfit shows like a thong, I just I put your face on the outfit.

36:04It's really incredible. And I just find such joy. I am so glad that it gives you this level of joy. I have to say I take joy in how much joy it gives you. I really do because you're torturing me. You're torturing me. I'm in my office not wearing a thong. And I'm in my office that's not shaped like a Volvo with windows. Every office in that show is incredible. It's like a German architect's dream. And instead we're like in these sterile buildings in conference rooms. With fluorescent lights. Yeah, fluorescent lights and a bunch of like short balding dudes. No Kardashians. And none of us are like, I'm having sex with your client.

36:42like well so am i you know like it it's none of that like that i watch that show and i'm like this job is so exciting i think i want to be a divorce lawyer when i grow up like i feel like the interns are coming in for the summer now and they're like why isn't everybody having sex at the conference room table like this is you guys suck i thought you were like a cool firm you know like yeah the tattoos you really were selling it i really was yeah i know they haven't asked me to I don't want to do a guest spot on that show yet. I can't imagine. They really need to. And I'd love to do a cameo. I'd love to do a cameo.

37:13Whoever out there, Kim, hit me up. I'm in. Oh, my God. I would watch it again just for that. Just for that. You know, I want to go back to men and women again. So you've also said that men and women actually experience cheating differently. What does that mean? I mean, again, this is an unfalsifiable premise because it's just based on my observations. But that's, you know, 26 years worth of representing the cheated and the cheated on, you know. So the cheater and the cheated on. So I've seen both sides of that equation. What my observation has been is that when there is cheating, first of all, like we've created a culture where it is totally unacceptable to take someone back after cheating, even though cheating is such a regular thing.

37:53like it i mean adultery as a technology has been around probably like five minutes shorter than monogamy like i feel like there was a caveman somewhere who was like i think you and i should just be together just the two of us and then walked out and saw another person in a loincloth and was like well maybe real quick like there had to be because it's been around i mean if you think about it like if you believe that god gave us 10 rules you know two of them were don't commit adultery don't covet your neighbor's wife don't commit adultery thou shalt not kill got one like you just have to say that once but like don't commit adultery seriously don't covet your neighbor's wife dude like god felt he had to repeat himself on that one that's whether you believe that that was like divine providence or not it'll tell you the problem's been around a while you know if it was carved in stone somewhere it's been around a while whoever invented it so we've been dealing with this for a while but we also do not give people the grace of like yeah this person made a mistake.

38:52This person, like I, I represent a lot of people that cheated. None of them ever woke up and said, you know, I think I'm going to fuck my whole life up today. I think I'm going to completely ruin it, damage my partner and their trust in me and their trust in anyone forever. And also probably cause some collateral damage with this other person who I'm going to have this triangulated relationship with. I think that's going to be a good use of time today. Like usually it's just this small progression of kind of poor decisions, things you probably knew you shouldn't do. And again, like I don't fault people for that.

39:26Like I give people some grace for that because I'll tell you something like it's a bad metaphor, but like if there's potato chips in my house, I'm eating them. Like I'm eating them. Like that's why I don't buy potato chips because I can control my food environment better than I can control my brain. I don't trust my brain like and I don't trust my stomach but like I trust the fact that when I'm in the store I don't have to buy potato chips so I don't buy them or if I buy them I go okay I'm going to eat them like you hang out the barbershop long enough to get a haircut like if I'm talking to a bunch of beautiful women on a regular basis I'm going to want to have sex with one or more of them that's how it works so if I'm in a committed monogamous relationship don't do it don't give yourself that occasion to do that.

40:07Like, like make a point of protecting that and not doing it. The thing that's interesting to me, and I've talked about before, and I talk about my book, is the question when people are confronted about adultery, because the man's first question is, did you have sex with him? And the woman's first question is, do you love her? And that tells me something about how men and women perceive relationships slightly differently. Now, again, not every man, not every woman, but as a general category. I think women, a lot of it is about, is this person now in a higher priority than me? Do you have a deeper connection, affection, desire for, you know, protective instinct toward, like, are they more important than me?

41:00Because there's something about like being so important to someone. And for men, there's this sense of like, this woman is my woman. She's my, you know, I don't want to say property, but she's mine. Like she's mine. And I don't want anyone else to be able to lay claim to her, to her body. It's just mine. It's just for me, you know. And by the way, a lot of women, I think, would find that very appealing for a man to say like, yeah, like you're mine. Like, I want you to be mine. I don't like I've had lots of problems in relationships because I'm not a very jealous person. and more than once a woman has been like like don't you care about me and it's like of course i'm just not insecure like i you can be flirtatious with people as long as you come back to me like i don't you know as long as we have lines that we're not going to cross like if you want to go out with your girlfriends and dance and flirt and stuff like it i don't care like i'm not insecure it doesn't bother me if the only thing that's keeping you from running off with other men is that you're not proximate to other men, we're in trouble.

41:58Like I'm a fan of monogamy, a model of monogamy where I have sex with as many people as I want, which is one, just one. Cause like when I'm full, I don't want to eat anymore. Like when I'm satisfied, I'm satisfied. So if you're in a relationship and you're satisfied, great. Like monogamy for me and all this idea of cheating is is the idea that you're not gonna cheat because that's the rule we've agreed to because that seems really stupid like if chris came home and he was like listen i just want you to know like there's a bunch of women i really wanted to have sex with today but i didn't have sex with any of them i totally stayed with the rules like what do you want a cookie like okay like how am i supposed to feel better about that like whereas if it you look if If it was, yeah, like I'm happy.

42:47I got you. What do I want more? I got you. I don't need anything more than that. Like that's what monogamy is supposed to be. So when does it become no longer our responsibility if we're going to be in a relationship to make sure that our partner feels physically connected to us? I think we owe it to our partner. Like if you're, I've always said in relationship, like if you're going to rob me of solitude, you owe me companionship. If I'm going to trade having sex with lots of women for having sex with you regularly, then that's the deal. Like that's the economy that we've agreed to. And I think that's very fair.

43:23And I'm asking you to do the same thing. So I owe it to you to try to satisfy you. You owe it to me to try to satisfy me because we don't have to do this thing. We don't have to have that rule. We can say, okay, we're going to sleep with other people. But if we're going to have this thing, why don't we just call out that economy and say, hey, let's make sure that we're protecting these values. James has this incredible line about how a good lawyer knows the law and a great lawyer knows the judge. Business works the exact same way. There's like a game underneath the game that the pros play every day and other people don't even realize they're playing it.

43:57Actually, my new book, Owner Be Owned. Well, this is it right here. Isn't it cute? This is the manual for scaling your business towards more profit and less pain. I spent 15 years inside the biggest companies on Wall Street watching private equity buy good businesses for pennies and great businesses for billions. You want to know what separates them? Great businesses use these systems. The systems that run businesses so good, the owner can grow alongside the business as opposed to getting owned by it. It's the exact operating system I use across the businesses that make up multiple nine figures.

44:30The same ones I teach to thousands of owners in our contrarian boardroom, but it costs them tens of thousands of dollars a year. Owner Be Owned is for you. And we are going to do so many giveaways live. You're not going to be able to handle it on September 18th with a free live event. Every attendee is going to get something that I wish I got 10 years ago. It would have made me way more money. So scan the link in the QR or click the description. Let's get back to my conversation with James Sexton. What percentage of divorces have uh you know affairs or non-manalities i mean a massive number a massive i would i would be speculating because it's hard to measure those things i would say close to 70 to 80 percent where there's some where infidelity played some part in some degree like how many is i've fallen in love with another person and i'm leaving you that's a smaller percentage although still shockingly high.

45:24But there's a lot of like, yeah, he cheated and I took him back or she cheated and I took her back. And then, you know, she still betrayed me in this way or that way. There's a lot of, yeah, they were flirting with this person or like a lot of times. And again, I tend to think that I look at the infidelity, the financial impropriety, the dishonesty, all as the symptoms of the underlying illness. And the illness is the disconnection. Yeah, the lack of attention. The lack of attention, the lack of connection. The most dangerous lies are the ones we tell ourselves. We lie to our partners all the time, but it's mostly because we're lying to ourselves.

46:05We're busy thinking about who we wish we were and not looking at who we actually are. And we're relating to the world and our partner like, this is who I want to be, not who I actually am. You know, and I had some years ago, one of my sons, my younger son, he's 26 now, but he was in his early 20s at the time. And we were having a very difficult moment in our relationship as father and son. And he was venting to me about the things I had gotten wrong. And I wanted to create space for that. And he was like, you know, you're so occupied with work all the time and you were never here for this. And I really listened to what he had to say.

46:49you know and i wanted to hear it like i wanted to hear it and absorb it and not be defensive but about halfway through this sort of venting i i said you know bill who are you comparing me to like are you comparing me to your imaginary perfect father because here's what i'll say you're allowed to do that but then i'm going to compare you to my imaginary perfect son and you suck. Like he's a black belt in Brazilian jujitsu. He is so cool. We have so much fun. He and I, he's like finishing law school or med school right now, but he's like not stuck up about it. And he's got the same taste in music as me.

47:28And we go to like concerts together sometimes. And like every father's day, he like posts some pictures that he and I, and he's like best dad ever. Like you suck compared to him. You're like awful compared to him. Like, but, but by the way, I love you like so much. Like so much it hurts. It's like looking at the sun, how much I love you. Like I can't, once I look away, it's like I love you that much. Just you, the way you actually are. Not my, as you compare to my imaginary sun. Like so could we, and I said to him like, if you don't learn this in our relationship, just learn it. Because if you compare a woman in your life someday, if you compare your wife someday to your imaginary perfect wife, she is going to disappoint the shit out of you.

48:14So compare people to real people. Or learn how to meet someone where they're at because that's how you want to be loved. If you want me to love you for who you are, as compared to this imaginary perfect ideal, you have to be prepared to give me that same grace. and i think that's the part in relationship like the algorithm has taken away our proclivity towards doing that it is in fact encouraged the opposite enragement engagement this boys versus girls bullshit that's out there that everyone has now picked up is like the greatest grift ever pander pander pander all these men being like guys let me tell you something if a woman feels defensive around you it's because you're the one who's attacking and all the women are like yes he's so right like it's everybody's just pandering to the algorithm they want the traction they want the engagement instead of like being honest with the somewhat complex truth which is that look women get it wrong men get it wrong there's stuff women are dealing with that men aren't there's stuff men's dealing with that women aren't there's stuff we're both dealing with like men or woman you know like there's so much going on that again like if we just stopped with this ridiculous combative approach that love is a zero sum game like listen a world where men are flailing is not a world where women are thriving and a world where women are flailing is not a world where men are we are in this together guys this is a knife fight in a closet like do you think that just stabbing is the answer i promise you it's not are you happy do you feel better does your friends seem happier in their relationships or does everyone seem like they're just spiraling down into, yeah, we all just hate the other side, the boys versus girls.

50:00Instead of just acknowledging how different some things are for us, but how much we love each other, sometimes inexplicably, for the dumbest things. And it's just lovely to be loved like that and to feel that love for another person. I just feel like we could do so much better at that. well it's funny because i remember i was texting you about one of our uh reels we did and it was about what do men really want and what do women really want and the tldr was like men want the nudes women want the flowers and there was a lot more context and tongue-in-cheek about it but people in the comments were crazy they were like so mad at you they're like how dare you say that men love the female body no man should ever want that because we're gonna that that means he's going to post you on every public profile and you monster right right and then you know then of course the other women were like i hate fucking flowers we were like whoa like everybody calm down for a second but i really do think a lot of people wake up just looking to get offended now and they get right on there like looking to get offended and i get it like i get it man i post in ghosts like i i try not to engage it because when i do engage it like i try to engage it the way i would engage cross-examination, which is like, it's, it's, you know, you're going to argue with me.

51:17I get paid$1 ,000 an hour to argue. Like it's a bad fucking idea. Like, well, first of all, I won't do it for free. Like it's not fair to the paying customers. Like, so I'm not, I used to say to my sons when they were teenagers, I'm sorry, I can't argue with you for free. Like, that's not cool. Like people pay me a lot of money to argue for them. I can't do it for you for free. That's not okay. Like I'll get you a gift certificate for Christmas. I'll argue with you for two hours. Like, there you go. You can space it out in six minute increments if you want Dude, this is a new business line for you.

51:43I would a thousand percent participate. You would want to buy an argument with me? Yeah, because I just would be like, ah, God, I didn't even see that left hook coming. It's not fun. It's not fun. But the truth of all of this is we're really, again, it goes back to that other thing I said. When I say, you know, a lot of men really like nudes. Guys, it's true. Like, you don't have to like it. It doesn't have to be true for your relationship. Okay. but it's true generally it's true like so it's okay to just say that like i didn't say did you know all men like nudes and you owe them nudes did you know that like if i said that it's a perfectly reasonable response to be like you have your head up your ass jim i made a a totally honest comment that no reasonable person would argue against and i get pilloried for it and it's totally fine.

52:35I don't really care. Because the truth is, if you want to conduct the orchestra, you got to turn your back on the audience. I don't care. The reason people, when people come up to me on the street and say, oh my God, I really love your work. And it's always the same thing they say. You're so blunt. You just say it like it is. And I'm like, because I'm just, I don't care. I think it's totally okay. And by the way, I don't mean that in the like, well, I don't care kind of way that people intentionally... No, I really don't. Like I really like my beliefs don't require you to believe them. It's OK.

53:06I have a very defined sense of self. And by the way, I can see the possibility I might be wrong. There have been times where I've had it. You can't talk for as many hours as I do on interviews and not get some things wrong or have a blind spot. I had a woman the other day send me a message on Instagram about like, here, I think you got this take wrong. And I wrote her back and I was like, oh, you know, I actually think this. And she wrote back and we ended up having like a really interesting dialogue. and I thought to myself, this is lovely. Like, it's lovely because she didn't start with, you're obviously a misogynist scumbag.

53:37Like, it was like, okay, that, wow. Like, why don't you share with me why you think something differently and then I'll share with you where I was coming from and maybe we'll find some commonality together. It's so funny. I always think of the, I forget who the comic is, but he famously talks about how, he's like, you know what the internet's comment section is like, you go to the park, there's a, there's a like guitar lesson sheet up on the wall. on the bottom are like you know your name number guitar lessons you call if you want a guitar lesson and you just randomly pick it up you dial the number the other person answers and you go i don't want fucking guitar lessons yeah like okay don't call the number yeah go anywhere i'll even take it a step further it's like you call and go why you hate tubas it's like what what did i say about tubas no i mean well because all the only thing people need to learn is how to play guitar like really really drums don't matter percussions useless like a way I didn't I literally said none of that like I actually don't even feel that way like I it's better when there's a drummer with what how why am I defending myself right now like what is this conversation who are you by the way like who are you I don't know you you don't know me why do you hate me but again like that that's got nothing to do with me no like i'm i don't know who hurt you if the nudes comment upset you that much i'm sorry they did like they shouldn't have like as a human being like i they should that's awful whatever must have happened to you that made you feel that way also i love flowers so you're lovely and i love nudes i love nudes or flowers ideally flowers with nudes like what a combo it's like pizza when it's good it's great when it's bad it's still pretty good i don't I asked Chris the other day I was like seriously I find such joy when I look at these flowers and I walk by them I don't know what it is I find massive joy looking at this flower I go what do you feel he's like not a damn thing I feel nothing inside looking at this flower and I said do you think that's normal he's like I think this is quite normal and I think there's something really beautiful about that though because I think again I don't want to be in a relationship with me I like polarity like I like something different than me like I think that the softness and the hardness of us I think the the fact that like that there's just a lid for every pot like there's something different and I think there's something so beautiful about that like I I can't learn everything I need to know about myself from myself no like I need I need someone different than me who's going to help me see things differently and who's going to see things themselves differently that makes me like there's something so amazing about you saying like isn't that beautiful to you and me going no i don't see it you know like but doesn't another person's excitement excite you oh for sure like i don't like i'm a new yorker i've been a new yorker a long time i live in manhattan i don't watch basketball but god everybody was so excited about the knicks how could you not be like new york comes together but usually we come together because of tragedies usually it's like 9 11 or katrina or covid and like this was like everyone The Wall Street executive and the bodega guy are both standing outside the bar watching the thing on the screen and cheering at the same time.

56:53And it was like, I was so excited about everyone's excitement. Like I've never played golf in my life, but I have friends who play golf. And when they talk to me about golf, they talk to me about it like they were talking about a lover. You know, that they're just, it's like when Chris and I went off at our dinner about Brazilian jujitsu and you just sat there for like a couple of minutes, just watching us turn into two little teenage boys like all excited about well i'm like when i do a bow and arrow choke i put my arm under knee oh yeah well at least i find with the gi it's a lot you know and you're just sitting there watching the two of us and and i remember the look on your face was one of like oh my god you guys are so cute like you're so excited right now about like your little ground karate do men like to be called cute well i think we i don't know we like to be called cute but i think behind closed doors knowing that like a woman who loves us thinks we're cute is allowed Like, I don't know if I said to you, like, oh, Cody's so cute.

57:48You'd be like, excuse me. It's kind of condescending. But if you heard, like, Jim was like, oh, my God, you are adorable. You would be like, okay. Like, I don't mind being adorable. What's interesting, because, like, I remember reading somewhere that you were trained in persuasion. Or that was one of your. Yeah, my master's degree is in mass persuasion. In persuasion and negotiation, which is fascinating. Because it seems like a lot of communication. and well marriage according to you a lot of it is about disconnection bad communication lack of attention and then it seems like there's such difference in the way we communicate you could say yeah oh jimmy's cute or you could say jim when he is so excited talking about jujitsu and how tough he is it's so cute isn't it yeah and those two things actually mean something because the energy of that is so different the energy and you know it as you're as it's coming out of your mouth.

58:40Like the energy of it is so different. And I think that, I think what you're really on to, and I think it's because you, you, you do have background in sales as well. I think in sales, we know that like, it's not the steak, it's the sizzle and that's what people want. And I think it's, it's really the, the way you parse it. You know, I, I always tell my clients that the way you ask the question very often dictates the answer. And the example that I always give is there's a joke about, you know, these two monks and they're standing around together talking about praying and smoking at the same time.

59:16And they're having a disagreement about that. And so they both agree they're going to write the Pope and they write the Pope. A couple of weeks goes by and they come back and they say, well, it turns out I was right. And the other guy says, what do you mean? It turns out I was right. He goes, well, wait a minute. What did you do? He goes, I wrote the Pope and I said, is it okay to smoke while you're praying? And he was like, no, when you're praying, you should be paying attention to what you're doing. And the other guy says, well, I wrote him and said, is it okay to pray while I'm smoking? And he was like, yeah, you should pray as often as you can.

59:41Like if you pray whenever you want, like, so how you ask the question dictates the answer. And so I think when you think about communicating with your partner, you know, last time we talked, I gave the example, which I think again, got clipped and I got yelled at for, uh, is I gave the example of shaving and I talked about how when I dated a woman who you know had sensitive skin and how she would be like oh my god your face is so scratchy and how it made me feel defensive and stupid and self-conscious and kind of irritated that like oh great now I got to shave every weekend as well as every weekday and then the next relationship I had she had the same issue but she just did the like oh my god you're so sexy when you're clean shaven you're like Don Draper in Mad Men you know I would shave three times a day but it was the same thing She just parsed it in a way of like, here's what I love about you.

1:00:31Here's this thing that I find so sexy about you. So what is the framework there? So like, let's say you want to, you're in the courtroom. You're trying to get somebody to do what you want them to do. Is this priming? Like, what are the things you need to do? The best cross-examination. Like, people watch Law & Order and movies like A Few Good Men, and they think that cross-examination is like, isn't it true that you're a terrible husband? And they're like, it's true. You're right. I get it. I did it. I ordered the code red. Like this is like a Perry Mason moment. It's not what good cross-examination looks like.

1:01:03Good cross-examination at the highest level is getting a person to commit to a set of principles that they think supports their argument and then snapping their neck with that. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required.

1:01:38Compatibility and availability varies 18+. Ooh. So you get them to commit to. Now, sir, one of the reasons why you want custody of your son is that it's important for you to be there for him. Isn't that right? Yes. In fact, you don't just want to be there on the weekends. You want to be there during the week because the heavy lifting of parenting is a really important part, isn't it? Yes. And in fact, if somebody just wants to do the fun part of parenting, they really have no business claiming that they're a real parent. Isn't that right? Now, what can you say but yes? Now, sir, isn't it a fact that you missed the last six parent-teacher conferences for your child?

1:02:15Like, isn't it a fact, sir, that on Wednesday nights, you participate in this basketball league instead of going to your son's – Now, again, I had you commit to principles, principles you thought were supportive of your argument. And by the way, if you disagreed with them, I can weaponize that against you too. So, again, what is a good cross-examination? It's getting – it's just like in relationship. What – commit to the principle. Isn't it a fact that I'm an important person in your life? Yes. Isn't it a fact that I'm as important as your golf game? Yes. And yet, sir, isn't it true that the last three weekends you spent more time playing golf than talking to me?

1:02:53You know, like, isn't it a fact that I am more important to you than Instagram? Well, yes. Okay. So then how much of your bandwidth on your phone was spent on Instagram versus messaging or talking to me? Like, again, evidence, evidence, evidence. Like, it doesn't matter what I know. It matters what I can prove. If you cross-examined your relationship, yourself about your relationship, what principles would I commit you to? And then how would I snap your neck? How do you counter that leading line of questioning with the one-word response? It's so good. Like, what if you don't want to answer in one-word responses?

1:03:35Well, that's the beauty of cross-examination. It's not a fair fight. They have to. Interesting. I've moved to strike the portion in the answer that was non-responsive. Oh, man. People all the time go, well, yes, but I wanted to move to strike the portion in the answer that's non-responsive. Like, you just keep - Can I use that as an argument? Yes or no? Isn't it a fact that you - And I can then make you look foolish and evasive. Right. Isn't it a fact, ma 'am, that you went to the pool that day? Well, yes, but I did it. So, yes. Yes. Thank you. Now, I'm going to ask you a number of questions that are going to be yes or no questions, if you could answer them accordingly, you know, like and you just pin the person down.

1:04:12Now, the thing that good lawyers do is I am as interested in the other side's case against my client as I am in my case against their client. So I'm going to do what I jokingly in my office call the eight mile strategy based on the Eminem movie, Eight Mile, where at the end, you know, he wins the rap battle by basically getting up and saying all the terrible things about himself that the other person's about to say. And then he hands the guy the mic and says, tell the people something they don't know about me. And the guy's just standing there like, because he's got nothing. He just, he shot himself with all the ammo that the other guy was going to hit him with.

1:04:51I do that in court all the time. I say to my clients all the time, we're going to do the eight mile strategy, which is every single thing they're going to hit you on cross-examination with, I'm going to hit you with first. I'm going to say, I show you what's been marked for identification of plaintiff's exhibit A. Do you recognize this? Yeah. What is it? This is a text message. Who's it from? It's from me. Who's it to? To the defendant, my wife. Uh-huh. Could you read it out loud for the court? I'd rather not. Go ahead and do it anyway. I can't fucking stand you and I wish you would die. Did you write that to her?

1:05:27Yes. You think that was a good thing to do? No. You think that helped your co-parenting relationship? No. what effect do you think that had on her it probably really upset her why did you do it she had sent me 30 text messages in the last two days where she just cursed me a million times and finally i just lost it and i just sent her this nasty text message if you had it to do over again would you send that text message you know i'd like to say that i wouldn't but the truth is i'm human and I have a breaking point and she had pushed me to it at that point. And I did something stupid and I sent something as low as the 50 messages she sent me before.

1:06:11Boom. I just, and I'm watching opposing counsel just crossing out pages of the cross-examination. They thought they were going to light my guy up with, and it's gone. I just took all away. I took all your ammo away. Now what? Now what? What do you have? You got nothing. I got out in front of it. I made a weakness into my client being so candid and honest about his humanity and about his breaking point. I just turned your prize-winning testimony into my client talking about the 50 mean messages her client sent. You know, so that's what good, like, it's why I love my job, even after 25 years of doing it, is that it's full contact storytelling.

1:06:50Like, I'm trying to tell a story while you try to stop me from telling that story and tell a different story. And it's the most fun job in the world for that reason. What do you think the biggest mistake people make is when they're trying to persuade someone of something? Well, you know, we were talking about it before we sat down that there's nothing less cool than trying to be cool. And there's nothing worse than a salesman that you know is trying to sell you something. Like the best salesperson, you just have a problem and they want to help solve it. Like that's it. Like and it's the same. The worst persuasion is blatantly obvious persuasion.

1:07:27Like it really like the best advocacy does not look like advocacy. It's just me going, you know, your honor. I don't know. I'm not. Listen, this guy walked into my office, hired me. If his wife had come in 15 minutes earlier, I'd probably be arguing the opposite of things. But you know what? It seems to me looking at these two that and now guess what? I'm advocating. It just doesn't sound like it. Like it just doesn't look like it because it's not so obvious. Like it's hilarious because when I litigate against like, you know, like like new lawyers or like self-represented parties, because now with AI, everybody thinks they're a fucking lawyer.

1:07:59And they're sitting there like, here too far ahead, here in. I'm like, you're trying to sound so much like a lawyer. You don't sound a damn thing like a lawyer right now. Like, but, and look, I get it. Like when I was a young lawyer, I remember I was one of my first big, big cases. Like I was probably five years into my practice. It was like first case where there was like a million dollar marital estate or more. And I remember my adversary was a very experienced high net worth divorce lawyer. And I was like this, like, you know, I'd never done a case this big. And so I'd studied like all of their marital assets and how it worked and did it on.

1:08:33The judge brings us into chambers and, you know, it's off the record. It's just the two lawyers and the judge. And I was like, oh, well, your honor, parties here have a fairly diverse asset profile that's somewhat complex in nature. They have an array of this. And obviously that I'm trying to like sound very learned. And I'm looking at my adversary who's clearly had, you know, 100 cases with this kind of thing. And we finish and I finished my little speech and she looks over at my adversary and he goes, yeah, I don't understand their finances at all. It's like really complicated from what I can tell.

1:09:02We're just going to probably need accountants to explain it to us because I'm not an accountant. And I was like, oh, shit. Like that was so much better. Like that was so much better. And by the way, he totally understands it better than I do. But that like little humble goes a long way. Like in that whole like, yeah, I don't know. I was looking at it and I was trying to make sense of it. I'm not that, you know, you got to explain it to me. Like I'm a seven year old, you know, and it, and all of a sudden I'm like, Oh, he's doing the thing. He's like doing the advocacy thing, but it's like, Oh, shucks.

1:09:32I don't know what I'm talking about. And I have to tell you, like, to me, that's the best lawyering. It's the best, like the best negotiation. You don't know we're in a negotiation, the best seduction. You don't know I'm trying to seduce you. Next thing you know, you're just in bed with me. Like, and you kind of go, how'd that happen? You know, like, and that, because again, the more that it's like right like i'm clearly trying to get you in bed that's not what's gonna work what's gonna work is like i find you fascinating like that is like what okay you know like now you got my attention so i i really think that that's the best kind of advocacy is is that that covert advocacy yeah i always know i'm about to get totally hoisted one over on in a deal when it's because i live in texas as you know but in texas when it's a an older texan and a slower draw and it happened to me once early on and now i know to look for it and he's like well you know i don't know i'm just a i'm just a slower texan over here from and i just i have so but explain to me and then proceeds to ask the most obliterating of questions but it's that self-deprecation why wouldn't i but And then he explains the counter theory that you're like, oh, shit, I was hoping he didn't know that that was a possibility.

1:10:47If you're paying this for that, why wouldn't I just do this instead? I must be dumb. And you're like, oh, you're so much smarter than that. I got nothing for this. Yeah, I got nothing. That's kryptonite right there. And look, there's something, again, like don't sweat the technique. Like that is beautiful, beautiful stuff. And I think we have a lot to learn from that because it's kind of all a negotiation, isn't it? Like all of this stuff, our whole lives is a series of negotiations. It's a series of arguments. Like we got it in our heads that like an argument is about making the other person feel small, but it's actually not.

1:11:23It's really about like a series of logical steps to get a person to view things the way that, you know, your position would would help them be viewed that way. Like that feeds into the flow you're trying to get them through. So, yeah, I think there's a tremendous value in like watching how people do it well. Yeah. I know there was a there was a quote, something like a good lawyer knows the law, a great lawyer knows the judge. 100 percent. Yeah. And that joke is funny on two levels because people think it means like, oh, we know the judge. But what it means is I know what annoys this judge. I know what resonates with this judge.

1:12:01Like there are judges here that I know they really like sports metaphors. so i'll like my opposing counsels hail mary passes that you know your honor he's trying to call an audible right now on this and i i again i'm not into sports but i know enough that i can like use those metaphors you know who's a parent and who's not you know who's divorced themselves and who's not like you know people's like you get to know what works with this judge sometimes by the way by being on the receiving end of the opposite like sometimes you make an argument you're like well, that one didn't work. Or you watch your opposing counsel in this case, make an effective argument.

1:12:38And then you say, well, you know, your honor, as in that other matter we have together, when my adversary said X, Y, and Z. So you start to like know the judge's proclivities. That's a lot of what you're doing when you hire experienced counsel is you're hiring someone who kind of knows the proclivities of the judge. But again, that's all about just like in relationship, it's all about paying attention, like paying attention to this unique organism that's in front of you that's why at the end of a day at trial i'm i'm exhausted in a way that i i don't even know how to put into words because i'm it's kind of like when i was a waiter like it is so hard to make it look so easy yeah you know you go in the kitchen and it's like fire food on five i got this dying on the board and then you walk out and you're like everything's so serene you know of course i'll get that for you right now you know and then you go back and you're like i eat ranch on five you know like but the truth is like you it takes a lot of effort to make something look so easy the same thing happens in in courtrooms like by the time we walk into the courtroom the trial's like half over like when i was a kid my parents used to have barbecues and my mom would like go to the store buy all these ingredients chop everything up marinate it prepare it beautifully.

1:13:52And my dad would take it, put it on the grill, and then take it off the grill. And everyone would go, oh my God, no, you're such a good cook. Like she had done 99.9 % of the difficult work. He had literally just been there for the last mile of the marathon, if even, like the 0.2 part of the 26.2. And he would get all the credit. And I think that that's what happens at trials. Like at trials, it's like by the time you walk in that courtroom, them all the prep work's done all the hard work's done i think it's the same thing with relationships too it's like you know by the time you guys are in the fight it's kind of too late like a lot of people learn how to fight while they're in a fight that's the worst time to learn how to fight like really like when you're dating somebody and you're not in a fight have a conversation about getting in a fight like say to them by the way we're gonna get in a fight like it'll probably be my fault i'll probably say something stupid i tend to say dumb shit sometimes so when we get in to fight what how what works for you do you need a minute should i like not try to force the conversation do you need to cool off or are you the like hey we got to figure this out tonight like we can't go to bed mad type because like i'll meet you where you're at you know like i again talking about things that no one ever taught me that it took me 50 years to learn like it took me 50 years to learn of being in unsuccessful relationships that i could just say like because i have one mode if i'm telling you about a problem i have i want your help if i say to you i'm having this problem with my son if i called chris i consider chris a friend if i called chris and i said chris i'm having this problem with one of my sons x y and z And he went, that must be really hard, Jim.

1:15:35I'd be like, yeah, no shit, Chris. That's why I called you. What should I do? Like, what do you think I should do? Whereas, and again, it took me 50 years to figure it out. A lot of times the women in my life in particular just want me to hear them. They want me to hear them, not try to fix it. They interpret me explaining how they could fix it as belittling their emotional experience and not giving credit to their problem-solving skills. Like, they just want me to go, oh, man, that sucks. Like, that's, she shouldn't have said that to you. That's really terrible, man. You didn't deserve that. And then I can see them go, thank you.

1:16:18Like, yeah, exactly. That's what I thought. Like, I didn't deserve that. And I'm like, no, you totally didn't deserve that sucks. Like, but again, what would stop us in relationship from you come home and tell me something awful that happened to you today some deal fell through something went wrong something went and i go okay here's the menu there's a whole menu i can listen to this and i can just be here and listen to what you're saying i can give you some suggestions of what i think you might want to do to like deal with that or solve it or whatever. We can go in the other room and take our clothes off and roll around and I'll take your mind off of it.

1:17:00We can order a pizza and sit on the couch and watch that show that you wanted to watch and we'll just take our minds off of it. You can pick anything on that menu. And by the way, if it's not working, tell me and we'll switch to another thing, right? Or if you want me to pick, I'll pick. I'll just start throwing stuff at it. And if something's not feeling good, tell me And we'll switch to another thing. Why can't we do, why is it that we're supposed to be experts at this? Like I'm, I'm 53. I've been in therapy for a good 20 years and I understand about 50 % of this guy. And I'm in here. Like I'm in here and I get about 50 % of this guy and I get it wrong.

1:17:42A lot of the time. Like, what am I really feeling? What am I really thinking? Why am I feeling that? Why is that bothering me? Why is that? Like, I'm supposed to figure you out perfectly. I'm not in there. Like, I'm in here and I can't figure it out. So could we give each other a little grace? Could we give each other a menu? What would be wrong with just giving each other a menu? Isn't it lovely to have options? Like, why do we like the Cheesecake Factory? Because I have no idea what I want to eat. And it's got 80 pages in the menu. And it's like, okay, I can have anything I wanted. And by the way, why do some people hate it?

1:18:12Because there's just too damn many choices. So great, I'll pick for you. And if it's wrong, okay, then choose something else. Like, let's do this for each other. There's no reason not to. You've seen thousands of cases. You've been married before. Yeah. There's a 70 % failure rate to marriage. Roughly. Well, roughly. Because then you find failure. Yeah, if it's not happily married, but stay married, whatever. But I know you're in partnership. Yeah. So, like, does marriage still work? Why do you go back to having a partner? I think love, I think love is like what the question people most often ask me is being a divorce lawyer for 25 plus years.

1:18:55Do you believe in love? Do you believe in romantic love? And I have to tell you, it strikes me as the silliest question. It's like someone saying, do you believe in gravity? I don't have to believe in gravity. It's there. It exists all around me. Like, love is really everything. It's the only thing that really matters to any of us. Like, I genuinely believe that. All of these other things are just symbols of our desire to be loved and to be worthy of love. All of these accomplishments are just ways that we're trying to tell the world that we're worthy of love. Like, that's really all they are.

1:19:37Like, they really are just things we do so that someone we respect and care about says, I'm so proud of you. Like, what feels better than someone saying, Cody, you wrote this book. I'm so proud of you. You have so much going on in your life and you found the time to do this thing and share it with the world. I'm so proud of you for that. You had so many reasons why you wouldn't get that done and you got it done. I'm so proud of you for that. I'm so proud to know you. like doesn't that just do something to your heart that you go like thanks like thank you like that's and that's a real sentiment that's a real thing and by the way it feels good to say it to someone i care about to tell them i'm proud of them because i know how it feels when someone tells me they're proud of me and i know how healing and wonderful and warm it feels and i i genuinely believe when i look back on my life it's those moments of connection with another person like that I will remember.

1:20:36I like to look at relationships as chapters in a long book. And a chapter ends and a new chapter begins. It doesn't mean that that chapter was a failure. Like I was married and it ended. And she's been remarried for 15 years to a wonderful man who's absolutely nothing like me, except that we're both tall. Other than that, there's very little in common and he's lovely like he's lovely i got to hang out with him at my son's wedding for like half the day we were doing the bow ties with the ushers and stuff and it was like the greatest thing and i i loved her enough and i loved her and knew her long enough that when i would hang out with this guy i'm always like oh yeah he's perfect for her like he's he's perfect for her in all these ways that i just wasn't like i love her but there's so many people that i love but wouldn't want to be married to.

1:21:34And I think that that's okay. I think that my ex-wife would say, Jim is a really great ex-husband. I love him, but I would never want to be married to him. And I don't blame her. Being married is a skill set. And it's not a skill set for everybody. And again, we just assume that people are supposed to get married. If you say, I've made the decision to get married it would be indelicate for a person to go really why why I mean by the way perfectly reasonable question you're signing up for something with roughly a 70 % failure rate it's reasonable to go really why are you doing that like that doesn't seem like a very good idea like you know like what is the problem to which marriage is a solution for you like do you have that problem will marriage actually solve that problem like why are you doing this thing you know and it's but instead it's the opposite it.

1:22:31I'm not, I'm thinking I'm not going to do the thing that fails like 70 % of the time. People go, really? Why do you have intimacy issues? It's like, no, I might just be rational. I might just understand math and how it works. But again, like, is, is that an invitation to turning off your heart and turning off the potential for connection? Like, no, I think I look back on every single woman I've ever had a romantic relationship with. And there is a moment that when I think of it, I smile. And I think like, oh, they made me a better person. Like I learned something about myself or about life or about love from them.

1:23:16And I really, really, really hope that my ex-girlfriends and ex-wife think, you know, my life was a little better for Jim's presence in it. and that like he gave me something of value and I gave him something of because I have to tell you every woman I ever had a romantic relationship with I got something of value from that relationship and every single one of them I know I never entered into that relationship with anything but good intentions like I wanted to love them well and I didn't and it wasn't that I you know I just didn't care about them. It was just that I didn't have the tools. At that stage in life, at that moment, I didn't have the tools or I wasn't the right fit for them.

1:24:01And it was never about wanting to hurt them or to fail them in some way. I failed with good intentions. That's something that people fail all the time at. I'm not ashamed of that. I refuse to be ashamed of that. Yeah. Also, God, how much better off would we all be if more of us said that? I think the scary reason why we don't say that is because we're afraid that the other person might say, no, she's a real cunt, you know, just period, end of story. But instead, if you're like, well, mate, you know, listen, everything doesn't end well. And I don't have any expectations about what the other person might've felt, but I learned something from it.

1:24:35Well, and accept the possibility. Like I remember, you know, my ex-wife and I now have been divorced 20 years. So it's a lot easier to talk about things from a distance. You know, when I talk about my mom's passing 10 years ago, it's a lot softer to talk about now than it was, you know, eight years ago when it was a fresh wound, right? So time is healing in some ways. But I remember like early in our divorce, we were, we were standing at like one of our kids track meets or something. And, uh, we were still, there was still some hurt between us. And she said something like, you know, Jim, like you were like, you just weren't there so much at the time.

1:25:08Like you just were just absent. Like you were just always thinking about work or always thinking of like, you'll never love anyone the way you love the law. Like you're, it was always this harsh mistress that was always in the room, you know? And, uh, and she was like, you know, when I was a good wife to you, like I was really there, like I wanted to love you and I wanted you to love me. And she was totally right. But I remember I said to her, I was like, okay, like let's accept that that's totally true. like let's take it a step further you were absolutely perfect in the marriage it was entirely my fault i completely was the one who screwed it up you have no blame in this whatsoever it was solely me now what now what we have two children together and our marriage is over what what would you do you want me to say i'm sorry i've said it a thousand times i'll say it as many more times as you'd like me to i'm sorry i'm sorry for all the things i got wrong and did wrong i I know I didn't mean to hurt you.

1:26:08I know I did. And I'm profoundly sorry for it. I really am profoundly sorry for my weakness as a human being, for my failings, for the things I get wrong. I am so sorry. You deserve better than that. I'm sorry. Now what? Now what? It's everyone's fault or it's no one's fault or it's all my fault or it's half your fault. Now what? What do we do? Like we're here. We have the tools we have. We have the time we have. what are we going to do with it guys are we going to go on the algorithm and talk about how much men suck and how much women suck and bring that energy into our next relationship like or is it possible that we might be brave enough to be vulnerable and say yeah yeah i'm human i get some things wrong i get some things right you probably do too like i i want the people in my life to see all my weaknesses.

1:27:04I really do. It's just like my case. Just like when I present my case, I want to get ahead of it. I want the eight mile strategy. Because here's the thing. If all I show you is how put together and phenomenal I am and I hide all the weak parts in me and all the vulnerable, stupid, silly, impatient, impetuous parts of me, all the shit I need to work on, if I hide all that, I will never feel your love. I'll never feel your love. You don't love me. You love the character there on playing effectively. No, like I want you to see all that stuff and go, oh yeah, I see all that. But that doesn't define you.

1:27:38You're all of this. You have all these weaknesses, but they're wonderful. You're perfect how imperfect you are. You're great. Like that's how we want to be loved. That's how I want to be loved. And by the way, that's how I love the people I love. Like the people I love, like you don't have to be perfect at all for me to love you. I love you more because you're not in like, I love you for your imperfections. I love all the things you get wrong and how you just keep trying. Like I, I want that. I want that kind of love. And I want to give that kind of love to another person. And I, I, I think if, if we could do more of that, we would all be a lot happier and I'd have to get a real job.

1:28:14James Sexton. So good. Thank you for coming on the podcast. I can't wait for the next book, which I hear rumblings maybe coming out. September of 2027. Who knew that the publishing cycle takes a damn long but and where do you like people to follow the most i personally like your instagram instagram that's really it i don't i don't do any of the other things really i mean i think i have a tiktok but i i don't have it on my phone like i don't it seems i have people post it like it for me like but i don't have anything to do with it no instagram so yeah the instagram is at nyc divorce lawyer and uh yeah it's it's um that's really a place to find me i i that otherwise you just find me down at 60 center street in manhattan in the courthouse you know like that's still on my list you gotta come i gotta come oh it's the greatest show in town following this priming thing oh i know we can't have a camera in there it's my main problem that's what i was like if we he's like you cannot that's kind of what makes it fun though is it's like an experience that you have to just have in real life and then you don't get to there's we have increasingly fewer of those like things that aren't so documented it's kind of fun to just exist in time yeah and not document it plus i just want to see how the judge interacts with you the whole thing just seems something you know what's funny it's changed a bit because some of the judges now are like oh who does this guy think he is oh i bet because there's a lot of my adversaries oh just cannot they're like my blur man was like do you know james sexton i'm like oh christ you know like and it's funny too because i'm now the world's most well-known divorce lawyer for sure i might be the world's most well-known lawyer i think that's probably true but it's really funny because you know like i'm i i have some colleagues that i think are way better at this than me i don't know but i think also you're one of the happiest attorneys i've ever met i love it that's the thing i think that's rare i really love it yeah i love the work like i've been i mean we have a shit ton of attorneys that we work with but by and large they're super smart yeah very effective yeah not that multi-dimensional and all of them if i go so would you have your kids fall on your footstep they're like oh fuck no no no i know yeah it's so funny yeah it's so funny i yeah i i said to both of my sons one of whom's a lawyer um but he doesn't do he works for the court system um he's like the like the consigliere to a judge he's like the hand of the king to a judge um he's what's called a court attorney and i have to tell you like i said to both of them like don't don't go into law to impress me yeah like go like find something you love as much as i love the law like and just go after it whatever it looks like because that's the fun thing to see anyways in anybody not to much it's like i said about golf like i like just being around anybody who's super excited about something even if i don't get it yeah even if i don't like your excitement excites me like if somebody's telling me like about you know like a book that they read that i have no desire to read but they're so enthusiastic i'm like oh i'm in okay tell me all about like because your excitement excites me i love the work i really it's why the funniest part for me is like i'll be on the subway coming back from the courthouse and like people see me they're like oh my god you're the divorce lawyer is like all over the yeah i'm like yeah they're like where where are you coming from i'm like the courthouse and they're like wait you're still a lawyer i'm like yeah what did you think i just like do interviews and tiktok for a living and they're like yeah that's what i thought like you write books and stuff and i was like no this is just like the weirdest hobby i get the same exact thing like no you're an influencer now i'm like god i wish yeah i wish that i only did this however many hours a week you have a full-time job this would be sweet you know just a professional yapper that's a profession you've added parenthood to it you know what i mean like throw that like you're gonna be like what are we doing all this free time you know like i know let's throw a screaming infant read your book so i don't get divorced and like obsessed with i mean listen i don't chris chris won't do better you know what i mean he's playing above the rim i've told him that i've told him that on a text thread i was Like, buddy, you're playing above the rim.

1:32:02You know, you got to. He's the best. He's a good man.

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