410: From Homeless at 14 to Debt-Free Homeowner AFTER Prison Time

0:00Just a friendly heads up that today's episode, while ultimately a success story, discusses drugs, alcohol, addiction, and recovery. Welcome to the BiggerPocketsMoney podcast, where we interview Jasmine Gray and talk about her journey through a tough financial upbringing to becoming debt-free and working on building wealth. Hello, hello, hello. My name is Mindy Jensen, and with me as always is my financial coach, co-host, Scott Trench. Great to be here with my general manager of finance, Mindy Jensen. Scott and I are here to make financial independence less scary, less just for somebody else, to introduce you to every money story, because we truly believe financial freedom is attainable for everyone, no matter when or where you're starting.

0:40That's right. Whether you want to retire early and travel the world, go on to make big-time investments in assets like real estate, start your own business, or recover from severe financial setbacks, including restitution and personal debt, we'll help you reach your financial goals and get money out of the way so you can launch yourself towards those dreams. Scott, I am so excited to talk to Jasmine today. She has a story that we really haven't heard before. And it is a story ultimately of triumph. And when you set your mind to something, you truly can't accomplish anything. Absolutely. I've had the privilege of knowing Jasmine for the last couple of years and watching this journey that we're going to hear today unfold.

1:21And it's been remarkable to see her progress. This is someone who works as hard as anyone I've ever met is energized and motivated to achieve her goals, passionate, and ultimately finds a way to win and succeed. And I think you're going to hear a heartbreaking story to set things up. And I think you're going to hear, you're going to be amazed at what she's been able to accomplish from that terrible starting position. Yep. And all of your excuses are now invalid for the reasons that you too cannot accomplish financial independence or become debt-free or better yourself or grow wealth or, or, or.

1:59What is that? Whether you believe you can or you can't, you're right. Well, Jasmine absolutely believed that she could and she did. And I love it. All right. Before we bring in Jasmine, we have a new segment on this show called Money Moment, where we share a money hack, tip or trick to help you on your financial journey. Today's Money Moment is unplug your appliances. Did you know many electronic devices sip energy when they're plugged in, even if they aren't being used? The Department of Energy estimates you could save 10 % every month just by unplugging your appliances after you use them. Of course, we're not talking about your refrigerator, but all those little other things that are plugged in that don't need to be, yank that plug.

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5:35Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at northwestregisteredagent.com slash moneyfree. And we're back. Jasmine Gray is the recovery program manager at Cross Purpose, a nonprofit organization abolishing relational, economic, and spiritual poverty through career and community development. Jasmine is here to tell her money story today from growing up in a financially tough situation to serving time in jail to turning her life around through hard work and financial literacy. Jasmine, welcome to the BiggerPocketsMoney podcast. I can't wait to hear your story. Anna, thank you. I'm happy to be here.

6:10This is such a gift. I'm excited. I'm like, oh, sorry. No, no, don't apologize. This is going to be a very interesting story. Let's jump in with what was money like in your family growing up? So money wasn't really talked about. and if we wanted to earn money the response from my grandparents was you do your chores to earn a roof over your head and that's what you know that's what money is for and it doesn't go to through the hands of children and other than that it wasn't talked about when there were financial issues we didn't know about it that's how my relationship with money was growing up very young, I just remember being like, I want what the other kids have, shoes, clothes, etc.

6:57And not being able to get them or my mom couldn't afford them or what have you. And so I started hustling in the form of, you know, selling marijuana or different substances. And I got my own phone. I started buying clothes and shoes for myself to have what other kids had. And that's kind of like that's where my hustle mentality was born from not having much growing up and having to you know earn it so yeah through chores or earn a roof over my head through doing chores so figuring out money was my other challenge that a challenge for me to do on my own for things I wanted and what age are we talking about here probably about 12 years old okay so at 12 years old, the tough financial situation for your family had you kind of turning to selling marijuana and these other activities to bring in additional income on the side.

7:57Is that right? Correct. Okay. And I understand that shortly after this period, you experienced some homelessness. Would you mind walking through how that came to pass? Yeah. When I was 14 years old, my mom actually booted me out onto the streets. So I was living in trap houses and sleeping sometimes on parked benches. And so from there, I really had to learn how to provide for myself in the form of more hustling, criminal activity. And even as soon as I was old enough to work, when I was 15, I also got a job at Lakeside. So and then combined with all of the other things is, yeah, I hope that answers the question.

8:52What is a trap house? Oh, hey, trap house. It's a place that's either abandoned or a place where like a lot of criminal activity happens or drugs are being sold or done on the premises of the property. A lot of people who are experiencing homelessness end up in these places and depend on each other to survive. Jasmine, was there a usage of drugs and alcohol going along with the hustling that you described here in the criminal activities? Yes. So I started using substances, drinking alcohol at the age of 10. I was smoking weed, using substances. And then by the age of 12, I was addicted to crack cocaine.

9:34And from there, my addiction progressed to ecstasy, methamphetamine, you name it. I was indulging in it. Your story is so remarkable, coming from a background that's as tough as what you're describing here, kicked out onto the street, dealing with addiction, a criminal background that comes in here. And so thank you for sharing what must be a really hard story to share with a lot of folks around your background. I believe you also had some, in addition to some of these lately activities, you also started a business and had some entrepreneurial ventures around this time. Would you mind describing a few of those?

10:13Yeah. So when I was 18, almost 19, I started my own cleaning company called 303 Cleaning LLC. And within the first four months, I grossed about, I think it was 25K the first after the second month. And then after the four months, I was just like, whoa, I made 38K this month alone. And I just recognized how being an entrepreneur, kind of like, oh, I can make money, but I didn't know how to budget to make sure that there was money going back into my business, which is something I'm glad that I learned super early on because out of that, I had this hunger to learn how to use money as a tool and not necessarily for fun.

11:05How did you get this business? How did you start it? And how'd you get the first clients? I was cleaning hotels and I just remember, I just think back and I remember how easy it was to clean hotels. And then I was looking at job postings for like Molly Maids and different maid cleaning companies. and I worked at a residential commercial cleaning company for a few months. And I just noticed some gaps. I noticed things that weren't being done, things that could have been done better. And I started doing some research on the pricing that my company offered, pricing of other companies. And I started like just posting my own ads.

11:49Back then, I think it was like Thumbtack. I started with Thumbtack. And I started getting clients. And before, you know, and I was still working. And then once I took on more regular clients, I quit my job doing residential cleaning. And from there, it just kind of grew to where end of, I think it was like the second month. I just took on so many things. So I'm bidding on all these jobs and being competitive with my pricing. I just started I hired four part time people so that I didn't have to pay for benefits or, you know, all those things, because I'm a kid. I don't know how to do this, but I do know that I do need to obey the laws because by this time I had already done juvenile time behind bars.

12:33So I was like, oh, I'm going to do this so I don't go to jail for, you know, any blue collar or white collar crime. So after that, the business was successful for about six months before I relapsed. But yeah, super exciting venture. The business was successful before you relapsed. You were growing and growing. I mean, you made$38 ,000 in one month. That's a whole year's salary for some people. I know when I first started out, that was more than a whole year's salary for me. So what were you doing with the funds when they came in? Besides, I mean, I'm assuming that you were paying your workers and buying more supplies, but what were you doing with the extra?

13:17So with the money, I was, interestingly enough, I paid my phone bill for a year in advance. I paid my rent six months in advance. And I wasn't, I noticed like I wasn't like paying to get the vacuums cleaned or paying for this. But then I started also using that money irresponsibly to do drugs. At the time, I was experiencing a heartbreak. And what I found, too, is that I've kind of like run to work when I'm dealing with emotional stuff that I don't want to deal with. So when I was exiting a relationship that was, you know, heartbreaking and I relapsed in the process as well. So that's kind of that's where my money went was substances.

14:02How long did that relapse last? Did it completely end the business or were you able to, I don't know how to phrase this, kick it again? No. So I wound up going to the hospital with my two children. My son had RSV and I asked somebody else to run my business for me that was staying in my house, which you could call probably a trap house by this time. And this person actually robbed my home, took my business checks, went to my client's houses, picked up checks, but did not do the job. And I was in the hospital for eight days. So within eight days, I lost at least 60 % of my clientele. Wow. And how old were you at this time?

14:52I was 19. Okay. So at 19, you have two kids. You have a business that has just been robbed and wrecked and you're in a relapse situation. Is that right? Yeah. And my home was actually robbed as well. So all of it was coming out of the hospital and just getting that kind of like thrown on you was definitely challenging. But the way that I handled that was I fell deeper into my addiction versus try to pick up the pieces again, because following that, I couldn't make a car payment. I couldn't pay my people anymore that were working for me. I couldn't pay like and all this money I had in savings had been taken out by this person cashing checks all over Denver with the money that I had in the business, which wasn't much in savings.

15:46It was probably about fifteen thousand dollars. And then when I filed the police report and they came back and they told me who it was, I could not. I just couldn't press charges because of who this person was to me. so um after that i just went back to hustling but this time more intensely on the side of like dealing in crime not so much drug dealing more crime and within a matter of months i mean my business got like i lost all my clientele by like march of 2015 and by june i lost my kids, cars, house, everything. And that November, I find myself incarcerated, facing on my way to prison. Okay.

16:37So 2015, you're 19 and you're incarcerated. For how long is the sentence? 2015, I started in November. I went and it was just before my 20th birthday. I went to jail And then I got out like once or twice, but I would do seven months, eight months before sentencing. And then I spent a total of four years or through almost four years in prison. From 20 to 24, I was in prison. Okay. And so can you tell us about the experience during that time? Did anything change while you're in prison? And can you walk us through what happened when you were released? I think I should probably start to like where the change started.

17:20because it was prior to prison. I just remember being desperate. I was homeless. I was tired. I was angry at myself. I screamed at God. I think it's the first time I remember having like this conscious that there's something in the universe that's like controlling everything and it's not me. I was just like, I need to change my life. Like I fell to my knees and I just started crying and just begged. And I had all these stipulations, right? I don't want to go to prison with new charges. I don't want to go this. I don't want to go that. And before I know it, I'm on my bondsman's catch up with me and I am on my way to prison.

18:05And I think being at that rock bottom, that desperate, that desperate need for change and wanting to regain and restore all the things that I stole from myself. So like relationships with my children, home, business, car, like everything that I had worked so hard to earn, I lost just as quickly. And in prison, I just remember walking through the yard and all of these descriptions of what I thought I built my life, what I built my life on these morals and values. Like I just felt them being stripped off of me. And the more that I focused on myself and took accountability for my actions and turned to God and just like read books and educated myself and pursued, because in prison, they have access to all these training, like trainings and AutoCAD and all these different things that you can better your life with.

19:04So I took advantage of that time and really just kind to use it to look inside myself and say, I never want an opportunity like this again in my life to get my mind right and get out there and just do it right this time. You used the word hustling earlier to describe some of the activities you did as a teenager. I understand that the definition of hustling began to change at this point in time and that you hustled in prison as well to a certain extent. Would you mind sharing a little bit of that? Yeah, so I think it was like a year and a half into prison. I started being broke. I didn't have anybody that really sent me any money.

19:43I didn't really have any contact with the outside world. No contact with my kids or anything like that either. So I started to like, oh, I can make candies. I'd melt down these lemonade candies or whatever kind of candy into like a sucker form. I'd peel off the cotton of the Q-tip and stick the Q-tip in the sucker and let it dry and harden. And then in the middle, I would put like a piece of taffy or a gummy, like a gummy snack. And then I would bake like chili suckers, taffy suckers, and I would bake taffy. And I would sell those for stamps. And that would be my currency in there to survive and get the things I needed and the things I wanted, like shoes, sweatsuits, TV, coffee pot.

20:24I needed the coffee pot to do my business, you know, and then Rhea, right? How somebody ordered the things I need in exchange for stamps. That's awesome. I love it. The entrepreneurial spirit the whole way through here. What happens upon your release? What happens there and how does that go? And what kind of how does the story continue? So when I was getting released from prison, I actually got kicked out because they're running out of space. And I was like six months away from my MRD and I was in this class. What is MRD for those who don't know? Yeah, mandatory release date. And I was in my class and I was just like, and it's AutoCAD and that's software engineering, like through a computer for those that may not know.

21:07I was really excited about it because that was the way I was going to make big bucks when I got out, right? But they kicked me out of prison before I could finish the class. So when I got out, I was just I understood one thing and that's that I needed to survive. And the only way that I was going to do that was through opportunities. And the only way to get opportunities is to seek them. So I got connected with cross purpose. I got connected with case management through the wages program at the empowerment program of Denver. And I started looking for jobs like right away. I got out on a Friday.

21:42I started my first job on the very next Friday. And I was just all over Denver trying to get into programs and resources that help people who have been to prison. Awesome. So I just want to explain what Cross Purpose is for those who don't know. It's a nonprofit organization here in the Denver area that helps people like Jasmine, who are serious about improving their lives, go through a career development program. And they have really good track record of after several months, I think it's a six month program of placing their alumni with Jasmine, you are an alumni into jobs where you're earning almost always greater than$20 per hour.

22:23So it's lifting folks in the community out of the poverty line. And this is work that I've volunteered off and on with for seven or eight years and that you've taken part of on the side of being a leader, which is a participant in the program. How'd I do? Yeah, you did pretty good. Yeah. That's pretty great. So you just got this job on Friday, a week after, and you're attending Cross Purpose, it sounds like. Right out the gate there. Sorry to interrupt your story. Yeah, no worries. And Cross Purpose does a really good job of supporting people as they are not only like maintain where they're currently at, but really like sustain and reach towards heights that they may not have otherwise reached.

23:05And that comes with relationship. So I actually was afraid I wasn't going to get into Cross Purpose because they told me that I wouldn't qualify for a bookkeeping track because of my background. And I was like, oh, no, I think I can. I think I can do it. I think I can do it. And I called them every day for like a month. Mays wasn't every day. Mays like once a week. And then I started becoming every other day towards the end of the deadline to get into the program. And then when I got accepted, no joke, I actually was like, yes, like I jumped up and clicked my heels. And I think I was walking on Colfax.

23:36And people must have looked at me really funny. But I was just like really excited to get into the program because I truly believe like this program is going to help me change my life. So after I got into the program, I started working two jobs. So I'm going to school full time, working two jobs. And Cross Purpose does food well. So if anybody's, you know, hungry and they're going to school or whatever, like Cross Purpose speeds you. But I would eat like from Cross Purpose, my restaurant job, which I was making$9 an hour. Or I would just eat from the food bank. to cut costs because I still had to pay rent.

24:09I was living with my brother, but he charged me like 700 bucks a month for rent plus utilities. And$9 an hour in Denver in 2019 is not a livable wage. So I really just busted my butt from that time forward. And then I got a full-time job doing accounts receivable, add RAC transport. It's like billing, customer service, accounts receivable, all those things intertwined into this one position. And I just remembered like feeling like$16 an hour is not enough. I need to hold on to this$9 an hour job. I need to hold on to this other weekend job that I have. So I was constantly working multiple jobs to save money, to pay down debt to get the things that I wanted, like needed.

24:59So like a car and I would starve myself because food wasn't as important as maybe paying my child support or paying down the debt balance of other things that I have like restitution. So yeah, that's a little bit about that beginning journey and that I continued working multiple jobs up until I started working at Cross Purpose in August of 2021. Let's talk about your debt and your restitution. What was your financial situation when you got out of prison? And how much, what was this debt and what was this restitution? When I got out of prison, I think I had like 28K in debt and at least 16K of that was restitution.

25:45And the rest is just like student loans, random bills that I hadn't paid. I think I had like a credit card or like a internet bill that I hadn't paid, child care bill that I hadn't paid from prior to prison. And some of those things, you know, fell off of my credit record, but I paid most of them because, yeah, I just wanted it off my credit. That's understandable. Okay. So Jasmine, you're working three jobs. You're hustling again in this new good context of the word hustling in your career. You're at a career development program. You're getting better opportunities, but you're still working three jobs and you're still not making enough where you feel confident about doing anything other than paying rent.

26:31You're not even feeling confident with eating. How do you begin to progress towards a more sustainable financial position, maybe in late 2019 or in that time period? How does a snowball begin rolling on the positive trajectory we know you ended up on? You know, I felt like there was something that maybe some education that I didn't have a gap in my understanding about finances. So when Cross Purpose, Karen Gensink shot out an invitation to Cross Finance to alumni network, I was like, that's for me. I need that. I need whatever gap that is. Like, I've got to figure out what that is. So when I started that program, Scott, you were there with a number of other coaches ready to just help us learn more about, you know, getting out of debt and investing.

27:20And the list goes on and on. But that's where I learned about the debt snowball. So during that time in the cross finance program, not only did I work, you know, all those multiple jobs, I was selling burritos. I was delivering flowers and I was selling items that I had in my in my house. My daughter participated in this with me where she would like look online for free stuff and we'd go pick it up and then she'd do a garage sale and give me 10%, which was a joy for her. And then, you know, not only that, but I was encouraged by Scott and Karen and Jeremy and Amanda. Those are all the coaches and the people involved in my particular cohort to really like believe in myself and apply for higher paying positions, like advocate and how to even saying like, you know, get a few offers in there so that you can say, well, this person's paying me this much, but I like it here.

28:20Or framing things in a way to where I can fight for my salary. I had never thought of that until Scott actually brought it to my attention that I can fight for my salary. And that was the first time I was like, oh, crap, I can do that. I don't have to just take anything because of my background. Because that's how I really approached life and situations and jobs is, oh, I'm lucky to even have a job because I'm a felon. Now I believe, oh, they're lucky to have me because my experience is diverse. it's different and it's a gift. And just like they're a gift to me, I'm a gift to them. We're on the same team here.