428: The Mad Fientist on Early Retirement in Your 40s and 4% Rule Updates

26:22So that's how, uh, as just to reiterate what you're saying, how, you know, people go crazy and start thinking like 2.5 % rule. And, you know, all of those arguments assume that this time's different and the future is going to be different, which it will be different, but to know that the future is going to be different and to assume it's going to be that much worse. Uh, I don't, I don't buy that. I, if anything, I think the future is brighter and productivity is going to increase dramatically due to, you know, automation and AI and things like that. So I'm, if anything, more optimistic to own these stocks than I am pessimistic that this time is different.

26:59And I have any idea why it's going to be different. And I know so much that it's going to be to then say that it's going to be 2.5 % is the only way to go. It doesn't make sense to me. Just diving down this tangent, one more step to just show how much I agree with what Brandon's saying here. There is this study about how housing costs have skyrocketed over the last 40 years. And when you normalize for inflation and then the size of new construction homes, they haven't really increased that much. It's just that everyone today when they're buying a new home is typically buying a much bigger home with more bedrooms and more bathrooms than homes that were constructed 40, 50 years ago.

27:37So to that point, like 40, 50 years, like we have cooler stuff now. You can get an iPhone, you can get a Tesla, you can travel faster and more cheaply than previously. So it's just that your money can purchase way more today, but to keep up with the Joneses will inevitably be harder and harder and harder with each passing year to live the lifestyle that you'll see folks on Instagram. The beach isn't getting any better. The weather in Scotland isn't getting any better or worse. Like if you want to go out and enjoy the outside at a park, like you're going to – like that time is going to be perfect now and in the future, and it's free or very low cost at that point in time.

28:16And I think that's what folks really – I don't think folks really take that through to the conclusion. If you want to maintain your lifestyle today going into the future, you'll probably be able to do so adjusting for inflation at a relatively cheaper and cheaper rate throughout the years. But if you want to keep up with the newest technologies and live in the newest places, then that's where the discretionary spending needs to have ample room for growth. Yeah, couldn't agree more. And yeah, not caring what the Joneses are doing is the biggest trick for pursuing financial independence or doing whatever you want with money.

28:50Because, yeah, I feel like that was such a gift that I didn't care. So that made it a lot easier. And I don't know how you do that. But yeah, it makes your whole life a lot easier not caring what the Joneses are doing because the Joneses are pretty crazy. So you, in your article, took keeping up with the Joneses, I guess, this tangent, to a mathematical calculation here. You said that you have withdrawal rules that you have in certain market conditions. Could you go through those for how you recommend someone who's starting perhaps at the 4 % rule or something like that or at the withdrawal rate you suggest and then how you'd recommend they think about their spending from a discretionary standpoint?

29:32Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, like I said before, there's no free lunch. So just because you have 50 % discretionary spending doesn't mean you can just bump up from a 4 % rule to a 5.5 % rule without changing anything about how you spend your money. So it just doesn't work like that, sadly. So when we were going back and forth with Nick, we were trying to think of a way to incorporate discretionary spending and flexibility into a withdrawal strategy that wasn't like overly cumbersome or just really complicated. And the conclusion we came to was, right, okay, so let's say that every December 31st, if you're retired with this new method, you look at your past performance over that year.

30:13And if the market is in a correction, so if the market is 10 % to 20 % off its highs, then you make one change to your discretionary spending. Otherwise, if it's 20 % or more down from the market highs, then you do this other change. Otherwise, you can just take your entire discretionary budget. So to go back to the scenario of where you're 50 % of your spending is discretionary, this is how it would look. So say you spend$40 ,000 a year, 50 % of that is discretionary. So that means your central spending, which is$20 ,000, that's going to just increase every year with inflation because we figured this is essential stuff.

30:58So it does have to keep pace with inflation. So if you're renting, you're going to have to keep pace with rental inflation. If you're factoring healthcare costs into that, then you're going to want your essentials to be covered by, to increase with inflation. the discretionary is not adjusted for inflation so for instance so let's say you're twenty thousand dollars of discretionary spending if the markets are up or if they're down less than ten percent then you take out that full twenty thousand dollars for that year if if the market is in a correction so ten to twenty percent down you would take half of that so ten thousand dollars would be going towards discretionary spending and if the market's in a bear market so twenty percent plus down, then you would have no discretionary budget.

31:42And this goes back to my other statement of like, you know, you define discretionary how you want it. So definitely put some essential fun in your essential bucket so that you're not having just a completely terrible year when there's a bear market. The good thing is, you know, it's very rarely in a bear market. And the market, like I said, is overwhelmingly up and to the right. So most years are going to be good. So discretionary budget. But like I mentioned before, there's some side benefits to this that I think are really good for early retirement. And one of those is, one, it'll allow you to annually assess what you're spending on discretionary-wise.

32:27So it's easy to get into a routine and just spend the same thing every year. And you may not even like it anymore. So having this at the forefront of your mind at least once a year to be like, actually, I don't need that healthcare membership or health club membership or whatever. Or maybe we did travel too much last year and it wasn't actually that enjoyable and we'll just cut back this year. I think that's beneficial. Secondly, it could also fix one of the things that I was most surprised about and that was most challenging for me. And that was the fact that money no longer was a motivating factor in my life.

33:02So my entire life has been geared around money, like study hard in high school to get a good, you know, to get good grades and get a good SAT score so that I could get a good college. And that would lead to a good job and studying computer science, you know, that was going to hopefully lead to a good salary. And, you know, my whole life, like even side businesses and hobbies, like we're geared towards like, Oh, I can maybe make some money off of this, um, to then have enough and to realize like, Oh, money, more money doesn't matter in the same way that, you know, more tap water doesn't matter, which was a reference that Mr.

33:36Money Mustache wrote about like a decade ago. I think that when I read it, I was like, that doesn't make any sense. But now, you know, when you're in that position, it's like, Oh yeah, it's like, yeah, it's great having tap water. And it's great knowing that it's there and you need as much as you want, you can take out and it's great. And it's going to be good for you. But, you know, you're not filling up buckets of tap water just to, you know, to save and to have more of it. And like, you know what I mean? It's not like I'm going out and scavenging for more tap water, but getting more of it doesn't really make sense.

34:06And that was really a tough transition to make in my mind because then it was like, well, what motivates you? And not having that biggest source of motivation was very disorienting, but having this method, then yeah, maybe you're going don't want to have a side business to account for those down years and you don't want that discretionary spending to drop to zero. So maybe you are going to be more inclined to like pursue that side hobby that yes, there's annoying things that you have to do upfront to get over the hurdle of then making money. But maybe that desire for money will still be there and it'll push you through those things to do rather than just having sort of no motivation, no monetary motivations anymore.

34:48Which again, I don't think it's an interesting way to live, but yeah, I don't know if it's better or worse. I think that it comes down to, if you are an early retiree and you have a million dollar portfolio and you want to withdraw at the 4 % rule, going back to the basics here that a lot of people are very comfortable with, that's 40 grand a year. And the market crashes 20 % in the first year. Well, maybe if you want to, either you can cut back on discretionary spending, like you suggest, Brandon, or you could just get a part-time job for that one year. And much more likely, to your point that you referenced earlier and that Nick calculated, you're four times more likely to end up with more wealth over the end of 30 years.

35:30So you're much more likely to see the average 10 plus percent return of the stock market in the early years and blow way past the spending goals, the amounts of money that you wanted to set aside for spending. So if you're willing to just run those odds, you're like, oh, my downside is great. I'm going to work at Starbucks for part-time for part of this year as my worst case scenario, that's pretty good. And your best case scenario is you, again, pursue these side projects. Your much more likely scenario is you pursue these side projects, you release an album, it goes platinum, and you make millions, right?

36:02Is that what happened here? No, I didn't. No, it didn't go platinum. I did get on the Billboard charts, thanks to the Metfintus listeners, which was ridiculous. So yeah, it made it onto the Billboard charts for one week, which was still amazing. And I got the plaque. It's in the States off to get it now shipped over to my house now that I have a proper studio. But yeah, I got the plaque with the platinum disc on it and saying where it landed on the charts and everything, which is ridiculous. So yeah, but no, no, no, no platinum, sadly. So that's phenomenal. And we're linking to that in the show notes here.

36:35So if you want to go read the article or listen to Brandon's album, you can go check those out at the show notes here at BiggerPocketsMoney. But anyways, so the point is, you're much more likely to have a large surplus once you reach any of these milestones, 4%, 5%, 6%, whatever, around financial independence and begin pursuing your own thing and living the life you want. And I think that that's an important takeaway from all of this math. We do all this theoretical research. We do all this math to back into these numbers. And the answer is, if you're just reasonably flexible and creative over that period of time, you're probably going to be fine.

37:07You have a whole year every year to figure out those, uh, any of those things to Mindy's point earlier, you're not going to run out of money overnight. If you've accumulated an estate of hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars and invested in a 60, 40 stock bond portfolio. Which, yeah. And that brings up two good points, which, uh, reminded me of, as you were saying that. So the first is that, as you mentioned, we haven't even touched the five portfolio due to some of the software I wrote before I even started the mad scientist that's earning money. Um, and we don't really spend that much.

37:38So we still don't spend the match that much. So that's an important caveat because everything I wrote about is all theoretical. I'm not actually living that withdrawal rate, which again, living it is definitely different than theoretically thinking about it, but I'm not living the 4 % rule either. So I can't, I talk about it in a, in a, in a sense of like, yeah, I'm looking at this from the outside. So that's an important caveat to make just to, to tell people that, because I don't want anybody, you know, thinking, Oh, this guy's not living the walk or walking the walk. Um, the second thing is it reminded me of the big change that I forgot about at the beginning of the episode, when you said there's lots of things that have changed.

38:14And that is that I have started to spend more and I love it. And as somebody who's super naturally frugal, who is like, you know, spending money is like, means that I failed in some way. And that's like the last resort. Um, over the past few years, I've tried to get better at spending. And it has been so much fun. And we can talk about that more if you want. But that was the other thing that I knew. I knew there was one other big change that I had forgot about at the beginning. And that was it. Yeah, I want to talk about that, too, because your latest podcast episode with Ramit inspired quite a bit in my own personal life.

38:53So thank you very much. The back to a point that I've been trying to make, but then we keep going off on these other tangents that I wanted to make earlier is that you won't run out of money overnight because you are going to continue to monitor the market even after you retire. I don't know a single early retiree who has gotten here and then they're like, you know what? I am never going to pay attention to the market again. I'm totally fine. I'm just going to go off on my little 4 % rule plan and never, ever, ever look at anything again. And then Wallop gets a surprise. Oh my goodness, the market's down.

39:26I had no idea. I mean, it's not like the news doesn't cover it in perpetuity every time there's a blip in the market. So you will be able to course correct. And I think being aware of the fact that it's not the 4 % rule, it's a 4.15 and it's really the 4.8 and that's the worst case scenario. And keeping track of what's going on in the market and, oh, wow, it's down. Maybe I'm not going to take that epic three-week trip to Hawaii with my family and spend like crazy because the mad scientist and Ramit told me to. Maybe I'm going to pull back a little bit. Maybe I'll just go to LA or I'll go up to the mountains of Colorado.

40:10Or maybe you'll have an epic three-month trip to Thailand and you'll come back having spent less than you would have had. You've not gone anywhere because you're young and you have flexibility and you are adventurous and you're all these things that maybe a 85 year old retiree is not. And that was the whole point of the article. Yeah, I love it. Support for BiggerPockets money comes from Northwest Registered Agent. Your business identity is everything that shows what your business is about from what customers see to what they don't see, like operating agreements, meeting minutes, and compliance paperwork.

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44:45Why is it that no one – I mean I've met one person in all these years we've been talking about financial independence who has actually retired on the 4 % rule and then not had some sort of side bet. a pension or a large cash cushion or a business or a side hustle or a book or whatever with this, what do you think it is about the amount of energy that's been devoted to reassuring us on this number and the fact that if you talk to any early retiree, essentially, none of them have actually left at the 4 % rule. They all have an ace in the hole. Because they're all overachievers. Yes. Yeah. Big time.

45:26Personality, yeah. I think if you've been able to do this in your 30s or 40s or 50s or whatever, then yeah, you're an overachiever. And you're obviously very interested in things and you research them and you take them to the extremes if you think you can. And you're just wanting to do something else as well. So when you can do something else without having money being the thing that drives you, then you can make decisions that nobody else makes. And like, for example, with the Mad Scientist, I post maybe once every three, four, five, six months. and that's like every how to make money blogging tells you that's the worst thing you can do.

46:02You have to do every week or you have to be consistent. I say no to so many interview pitches because I'm like, my audience won't find this interesting. Yes, you're going to promote my blog and that would help grow the podcast. But I'm saying no because I'm not interested. So my audience isn't interested. So every decision I make for Mad Scientist is with my audience in mind and money doesn't even enter the equation. So it's like, that's going to help my blog stand out from somebody who's pitching like everything that's paying them or like, you know, they're plastered with ads or whatever. It's like, you get to do these things for another reason.

46:39And then people notice that. And then you end up making money ironically anyway, because of that, because, because of that, that you're not trying. Yeah. So how should we think about the, these rules of thumb? Is this the beginning of the finish line? Is that the practical reality of these rules, like the 4 % rule, in spite of the fact that they're clearly... You're way past it financially. You've got all the money you need for the rest of your life, as long as you're confident in your spending projections. I think it's a safety blanket. Okay. So I knew I would make more money after quitting my job.

47:11I just knew it because so many of my interests... Right now, after speaking to Ramit and him helping me spend more, he's like, try to think of ways you could spend more on something you love. Like, what do you love? I was like, I love coffee. I love my morning coffee ritual, my pour over my beans, grinding it, smelling it, buying different beans, all this stuff. And he's like, well, how could you spend 10 times the amount? And like, it blew my mind. It made me sweaty. I had an actual physical reaction to it because I was like, I'm already spending a lot. Like this is already a lot. I'm spending like 10 pounds a week on fancy beans and they shipped directly to my house.

47:45And like, I just bought this 300-pound grinder that's super fancy. And it literally made me sweat. But since then, I've just kept going back to it. And now I think I'm going to buy a 3 ,500-pound home roaster slash home roasting slash commercial that does a kilogram of beans that I can roast. And even then, I think I'm going to start selling them because my neighbor sells cakes to all the hikers that go up the hill. and I'm like, Oh, maybe I'll just team up with her and I can, you know, uh, sell some beans from her and that'll help me get better at roasting. Cause I'll be roasting more. Cause I won't have to drink everything I roast.

48:23And there, there it is again. It's like, there's another way that money is going to come in that it doesn't have to, and it's not going to impede on my enjoyment of the roasting hobby, but it's just another way that it's coming into my life that, you know, um, I wouldn't have expected. So anyway, so I knew that I was going to be making money some way because all of my hobbies have logical ways to make money, I guess. But it's a safety blanket. Like someone who's so risk adverse that they're saving 70 % of their salary, they need to know that if everything goes wrong and I'm confined to my bed and I can't go out and make money or I can't make money on the internet or anything, then I'm going to be okay.

49:05And that's what I think the 4 % rule is these days. And I think the people that need a 2.5 % rule need a really thick safety blanket that's just overly excessive and they're just going to be too sweaty under that safety blanket to kill the metaphor finally. So this is a great set into talking about the idea of spending more and all of these concepts that I think are really hard for a lot of FI people. And I can see a lot of people who are listening who are not yet financially independent rolling their eyes at this problem. So I want to go back one second here and ask you about the arc here, right?

49:39You started out and you were very frugal. You saved a large portion of your income and that's how you built your wealth. You amassed a large number of interests in various things. You have music royalties, you've got the Mad Scientist blog, you've now got your coffee roasting enterprise. All of these items are contributing to your wealth. And now you have this very large surplus, I'd imagine, that enables you to spend more and you've got to shake these habits that got you here to make the most use of the wealth that you've created here. Do you think that's the arc that people should set themselves up for?

50:13Or do you think that there's a, like, do you think that the necessity or that being so frugal and so extreme in the early days is a necessity to give you the ability to have these problems about letting go and spending more today? Yeah, no, that's a very interesting question. And I think you have to know yourself. So if you're a naturally spendy person, then this is a whole, this conversation seems crazy to you. But I know for the fire community, and I know Mindy and her husband are right there with me when it comes to not being able to spend, even though they probably could. I know this is definitely a much more prevalent situation for fire people.

50:53So, yeah, I think first is to know yourself. And if you're naturally spendy, then, you know, don't just let yourself go crazy. you really need to dial that in. But yeah, for someone like me, who is looking back on his journey to financial independence, and now after that with the surplus, I'm lucky in the sense that there's not a lot of regrets getting to FI. My wife and I traveled to 50 countries. We did it cheaply, and we were really good at travel hacking. And so it didn't break the bank, But we didn't sacrifice those experiences, which I'm really grateful for. And really, the only thing I regret about my entire journey to FI was missing out on a few bachelor parties with my buddies in my 20s.

51:39Because I lived in Scotland. They lived in the States. I wasn't going to fly to the States a month before the wedding and then fly back for the wedding. I wasn't going to fly the month before for the bachelor party. It just seemed crazy to me. But I can't get that time back. And a book that I've only recently read that I wish I had read in my 20s and 30s was Die With Zero. And that was after I published about I published this episode with the Ramites and a lot of Matt Fontes readers were like, you need to read this book. And so good because it talks about like how there's like a season for everything.

52:11And, you know, I'm not going to get that drunk 20 idiot time back with my friends. And I'm not in those stories where they all were 20 year old drunk idiots together. And I wouldn't want that now in my forties. I could have a half a beer and then I'm going to fall asleep because I got a 10 month old. So in that sense, I wish I had just relaxed a little bit. But also I, you know, spending is a skill and I had not, I did not have that skill. And I'm only developing that skill over the last two or three years as I've actually actually worked on it. So I think I could have let my foot off the gas a little bit during my time to fi and I could have exercised that spending muscle a bit to figure out, hey, what is worth spending on?

52:53And I just thought all spending was bad. Whereas now I'm like, wow, some of this stuff is really making my life better. Like some of these things that I'm buying, which I always hated things stuff. But man, some of my stuff is like it makes me so happy every day. and then spending on experiences as well, like elevating some of those experiences has been really fun. So yeah, so I think I would have eased off the gas a little bit, maybe taken a little bit longer to reach the five goals and everything. But I'm thankful there's not too many regrets. Okay, you just said two things that really, really hit hard.

53:28You said, I thought spending was bad. And I hear you. I feel you. I totally identify with that. And I'm just starting to get over it. I can't tell you how timely and helpful your episode with Ramit was and how seen I felt from that episode. Thank you so much. When he told you to start spending more 10x, I'm like, I'm sweating too when you're sweating. you said, but some of this stuff makes my life better. And I have never until like, what is that phrase? I was today years old. I was, I don't know, a month ago old when I started realizing that spending isn't bad if you can afford it. And some of the stuff that you spend makes your life better or more enjoyable or you just like it.

54:28And it's okay to spend money on something that you enjoy. And spending is a skill and it is hard to make that very big change. And then right after your episode came out, Pete had an article about buying a Tesla. he just spent$50 ,000 on it. Did you see the hate he got from that? No, I didn't. People were so mean. I mean, some people were like, hey, good for you. And some people were like, oh my God, I'm never reading your blog again. I can't believe you would be like this. Why do you have to, and by Pete, I'm sorry, I mean, Mr. Money Mustache. Why do you have to be so hate-filled? He clearly can afford it.

55:12He's not you know, simultaneously on food stamps and spending money on big, fancy things that he can't afford. He's got lots and lots of money that he can afford to buy this car. No problem. Yeah. So that makes me think of two things. First is that's sort of why I've stepped back from the fire community over the last few years. Because at first, when it all started out, it just felt like all these people doing really interesting things, like breaking the mold, going against common knowledge and doing them. And that was very exciting. And then it got so big 2018, 2019. And now it's so big that there's a group think within the fire community that like, why would, why would Mr.

55:55Money Mustache get hate for making a choice when everyone knows he's very good with money and he's responsible and he's able to do what he wants with it. And it's getting to be like this group think, and now I'm rebelling against the fire community. So It's like when I started, I felt like I was rebelling against common financial knowledge. And now after fire has taken off so much, I feel like I'm rebelling against fire because, yeah, every individual is different. And nobody should be judged for any decisions they're making because you don't know what goes into those decisions. And especially someone who's as knowledgeable and intelligent as Mr.

56:32Money Mustache is. It's like, why would you go against him? The second thing is the Tesla is always lived in my brain as something that I feel encapsulates this problem more perfectly than anything else. So I happen to know Mindy and her husband very well. And I know her husband has invested in Tesla way back in the day and probably made enough just off that one investment to buy 50 Teslas. And he's obsessed with Tesla. He's obsessed with EVs. He reads about them all the time. And yet he still doesn't have a Tesla. And I think my work can't be done on this topic of freeing people from the chains of their past frugality until Mindy and her husband get that Tesla.

57:15Because I think that just epitomizes what I'm currently now trying to fight against. I love it. And I think, but I don't want to lose sight of the fact that, you know, the journey to financial independence starts for most people with this pretty extreme bent on frugality. And it's consistent across all three of us, for sure. Right. And it's part of your identity, I think, for a number of years. Right. This is how you view yourself. You don't, you know, you make conscious decisions about these places. You're very clear, conscious about where you live, what you drive, how you spend your money on food.

57:52You tightly control expenses. And that's a necessary stepping stone. And we should encourage people to do that. That is a step in the road to success here, right? As the years go by, a five, seven-year grind. But not so hard that you skip your buddy's bachelor party or the wedding or the trip with your friends and family. I love that caveat, right? These are life experiences you're never going to get back. But where you lay your head at night for five or seven years, that can make a big difference about whether you're going to become financially independent, what kind of vehicle you drive, what you eat on a day-to-day basis, all that kind of good stuff.

58:24Just to interject real quick, because I think that's what's made this so fun is that I've gradually added these things to my life. And it's different. I look to some of my younger siblings. They just went from university to rate to have the fancy car and the nice place and all this stuff. And like, I sort of feel bad because they didn't get to have that like sort of grungy apartment life after college. And they didn't sort of like have to struggle and like go to hostels and, you know, like some sketchy hostels and their European backpacking trip and stuff. So like, I feel like, yeah, adding this stuff in gradually is so much more fun because you're getting that dopamine hit just super gradually.

59:06But it's and you can more likely afford it. So I'm sorry to butt in there, but that was such a important point that you made is that, yeah, you definitely need to sort yourself out early, especially if frugality is not natural like it is to all three of us. But adding it gradually makes it way more fun because you just get that slight dopamine hit as you go. And, and then you like, I can't imagine what's going to be fun when like some of these younger kids are 40. It's like when you're, when you're, you're maybe not, you're not getting wasted with your friends and stuff and traveling the world and stuff.

59:40Like, like I, I'm glad I had this nice house to be like my 40 year old thing. Like now I get to buy these cool things for my nice house. Whereas if I had had that super fancy house right when I got to be 20 without, you know, without house hacking or without having roommates or without, you know, then what would be, what would be, I get my kicks from these days in my forties. Yeah, I think that's right. But, you know, one of the things I wanted to make a point was in that journey to a frugality of extreme frugality, that's your identity. That was my identity for a long period of time. Perhaps that was how you viewed yourself, Brandon.

1:00:13That's perhaps how Mr. Money Mustache viewed himself. And then after a while that ceases to become important. Like, is just not a relevant factor in your life to be frugal. There's a huge pile of surplus money. The tap, if you leave the tap on, because it's flowing water, the metaphor we were using earlier, for an extra few minutes to fill up your water bottle with a little bit of excess, that's great. You can do that. And so that changes. And I think that folks ingrain too much of the frugality thing is this lifetime concept in there that then they lash out in the and the financial independence community at the folks that are starting to spend more, right?

1:00:52Which will happen inevitably if you just spend less than you earn and continue to invest. The pile will grow bigger and bigger and bigger after you hit the 4 % rule, for example, once you get to the beginning of the end, whatever we called it with the 4 % rule, the safety blanket. That's exactly right. And that's one of the issues I see with the fire community because I had that struggle, just me personally, without a name for it. But now there's a name for it. And now there's a community and now there's a Reddit subreddit that people are going to judge you for all these decisions. So it's even worse.

1:01:20So for me, it's taken a lot of years and thinking and like actual like dedication to try to unwind some of that natural identity association with frugality. But now it's even harder when you're immersed in a community that, you know, espouses it so much. And yeah, that's a shame that then people are judging people for it, which is even worse because that's not the point. It's not who has the most money at the end wins. That's not the point at all. Yeah, or who can spend the least amount. It's being comfortable. It's being flexible. It's having enough money that now you can do whatever you want.

1:02:07I was having dinner last night with friends and they said – we were talking. So there was a couple, Jen and Scott, and then we met a new to the FI community, David. And he was like, well, I like my job. And Scott said, well, you don't have to retire. You can still work if you want to. And I think that there's a lot of people who are like, oh, well, I have to retire. I don't want to pursue financial independence because I don't want to retire. I'm financially independent and I still work. You don't have to quit. If you like your job, you can continue to work. You can cobble together some sort of employment situation that you enjoy most.

1:02:51Maybe you work five hours a week. Maybe you work 20 hours a month or whatever. It's whatever you want. It just gives you flexibility. And it isn't about how little can you spend? Although I do find enjoyment in Jacob Lundfisker's extreme frugality. I find it fun to voyeur through him, but I'm not going to go that route. But I also don't think that he minds it either. I think he really enjoys that. That's not something that he's doing and he finds pain in it, but he keeps doing it anyway. I think the lesson is go all out. Give yourself this problem, right? In life, this, this is what, this is the kind of problem that you want and, and get to that 50, 60, 70 % savings rate, but don't get so wrapped up in that as your identity that at the end you can't evolve to living the lifestyle that you want and make, make yourself happy, right?

1:03:47There's a, there, there's more, more to life than having a large pile of money and continuing to spend, um, like you're a college student, you know, at that point. But again, you know, if you want this world of financial independence, you have to go through that phase to a certain degree. And we can't forget that either, sitting on our relative high horses here after having gone through that grind individually. No, I think that's a fantastic point. And that's, yeah, exactly. All of life has to be an experiment because we're so bad at knowing what makes us happy. And I definitely took it way too far in the frugality space.

1:04:22And I definitely pushed that boundary, I tested it and realized that that was way too miserable for a long-term life. And now here I am on the other side. And you're right, the sequence does matter. Don't test the fun spending side and see how far you can go in that without first testing the other way. So you're absolutely right. The sequence matters. First test and find your boundaries on that edge, and then slowly start adding things back in that you think could benefit your life. and then get used to that spending and get used to using money for that reason. And then, um, and then, yeah, hopefully one day you'll be in a situation where you're, you're able to then test the other boundary and, um, and yeah, that's, it's, it's way more fun than I thought it would be.

1:05:09Um, and it's way more challenging than I thought it would be because I haven't ever hit the targets that I've set to try to test that other boundary yet, because it is, I'm so, so used to being that frugal guy, um, and old habits die hard. I love how Ramit told you to spend 10 times the amount of money. And so you bought a coffee roasting business, essentially. So I haven't told him that. Old habits die hard. Because I haven't bought it. But yeah, I'm definitely going to get back in touch with him because I wouldn't have thought of that otherwise. So we'll see how it goes. Well, Brandon, are there any other things you want to share with us before we kind of wrap up here?

1:05:41No, I think we covered so much of what I've been thinking about recently. And yeah, I appreciate you guys getting me on the show to talk about it because, yeah, Yeah, it helps with my thinking as well and my plans for going forward. Because like I said, it's all an experiment. I don't have the answers. And nobody does have the answers because it's so individual. So you have to find the answers for yourself. Okay. Brandon, it's always delightful to talk to you. Come back anytime, of course. But where can people find you before you come back again? Okay. So the most important thing to go to is madfientist.com slash album.

1:06:16because there you can find all the music stuff I'm doing, which is what I'm really super into after leaving my job and hopefully going to start playing some live shows. So if you can follow me on Spotify and stuff, that all helps with booking gigs. So then we can meet up in your hometown and we can talk about finance stuff over beer. But at least then I'll be there with the music stuff, which would be super fun. So yeah, madfiantist.com slash album. But you can find me anywhere that Madfiantist exists because that's me. It's a made up word. So I'm Matt Scientist on Twitter and Facebook and MattFiantist.com.

1:06:52And yeah, that's everything, I think. So thanks for having me again. It's always great chatting to you guys. And where can we buy the beans? The Matt Scientist coffee roastery? Well, yeah, that'll be very local. So it's a very small village in Scotland you'll have to come to. But I'll see you at one of my shows and I'll tell you where and I'll maybe bring some beans with me. Awesome. Okay, I'm going to hold you to that. Okay, thank you, Brandon. Brandon, this was so, so, so much fun. And we will talk to you soon. Thank you so much. Thanks again, guys. See you soon. Bye. All right, Scott. That was Brandon, the Mad Scientist.

1:07:24He's always awesome. I'm sorry, Brandon, the Mad Scientist, Billboard chart-topping musician, new dad, new homeowner, and future coffee roaster master, Brandon, the Mad Scientist. Yeah, I love talking with Brandon every time. What a humble, happy, hardworking, brilliant person, right? I mean, every time we talk to him, we learn something. He's very thoughtful. His ego is so in check. I just enjoy talking with him every single time and love the life that he's created for himself through humility, hard work, smarts, and discipline and grind. Yeah, he is such a delight. And he's so giving. He loves to take those horrible tax documents and read through them and translate them for you.

1:08:13He loves to take these complicated issues and think about them and look for loopholes, look for ways around them. And this most recent article about the 4 % rule is just yet another example of him taking this hard and fast rule, the 4 % rule that has been kind of overly simplified by a lot of people. Oh, it's 4%. It's always 4%. He's like, no, it doesn't have to be 4%. It could be 5%. It could be 6%. I think it's important to keep track of where your money's going. I think it's important to keep track of what the market is doing. And if you are on the path to financial independence, if you are in a position of being financially independent, you are most likely going to be tracking your spending at least loosely, and you are going to be keeping track of the market because that's the kind of person you are.

1:09:02So this is not adding anything to your plate. It's just giving you more options. And that's kind of what financial independence is all about. Yeah, I completely agree. And I also think I just want to come back to that conversation we had earlier, right? I think that the three of us are going through this wonderful shift in thinking about, oh, what does abundance look like now that we've kind of crossed this hurdle of the 4 % rule and are well beyond it, each of us? Um, that does not change the fact that the way I got here, the way Mindy, you, you got to your current level of wealth, the way Brandon got there was a grind of many years that was pretty intense and all out and very frugal and very dedicated for a long period of time mixed with a high income and low spending for many of those years, especially in the later stages of the journey to FI.

1:09:50And there's evolution that comes after that. And I at least want to continue to really heavily encourage that. I think it's a healthy approach. And yeah, like go all out for those first couple of years and then look up after you've crossed that 4 % rule and begin, you know, open up and say the rest of my life, the next five decades, potentially, if you can do this in your 30s or 40s, are going to be whatever I want them to be. And I can go and reinvent myself five or six times. Don't let it become your identity to the point where you carry on too cheap after the thresholds for financial independence are hit.

1:10:27I really love the tap water analogy from Mr. Money Mustache. I don't need to have Home Depot buckets full of tap water around my house. I can just go to the tap and take it out whenever I need it. I don't need to hoard it around the house. Money's the same way. All right, Scott, should we get out of here? Let's do it. That wraps up this episode of the BiggerPocketsMoney podcast with Billboard chart-topping artist Brandon, the Madfientist. Get his album at madfientist.com slash album. He is Scott Trench, and I am Mindy Jensen saying later days, Nanta Rays. BiggerPocketsMoney was created by Mindy Jensen and Scott Trench.

1:11:06Produced by Kaylin Bennett. Editing by Exodus Media. Copywriting by Nate Weintraub. Lastly, a big thank you to the BiggerPockets team for making this show possible.

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