453: How to Conquer Financial Trauma & Develop a HEALTHY Relationship with Money

29:16This is a belief I'm carrying forward from my childhood, or this is what I've seen. And I'm mimicking the experience around money. So when we can get to kind of a foundational level, that's when really we can start to recognize where does the trauma actually exist? What are the patterns around that trauma? And then what can we do about it? Back to your comment about the journal. What is frugality? Is it a positive or is it a negative? I mean, it's great to be frugal. You're saving money. You're not being wasteful. But there was a recent New York Times article about financial trauma. And the guy that was featured in the beginning of it was like, I never want to spend money because I grew up poor.

30:05And I just attributed this to frugality. And at some point, being frugal is a good thing. And then at some point, being frugal isn't such a good thing anymore. So how do you make the distinction if the thought is a positive or a negative when it comes to something like that? It's really tricky. You know, what you're talking about is really tricky. And I think it's something that so many of us can relate to. And I believe I read that article as well. There was another one I was thinking about. I forget the person that they were talking about, but he saved some like massive amount of money and was just this huge saver and realized later in life that it was actually a disservice to him because he never actually experienced life.

30:49He was just so focused on saving money. And when I worked with couples, a lot of times there would be somebody who was super frugal that was just always about saving. And then the other person on the other hand would want to spend money, would want to go out and kind of live life. And so it was really about finding that balance point. So I think bringing that same logic into your individual experience is where can I find a little bit of balance where I allow myself to spend money on things that line up with my values, things that feel good to me. Maybe you're somebody who, you know, you want to go out to dinner, but when you go out to dinner, you want it to be just a really, you want it to be a really good place.

31:39You want to have a really good meal. And that's your one thing you're going to spend money on every month, right? So allow yourself permission to spend money in that way, because that supports you. That's going to give you life. That's going to give you a positive feeling and a positive emotion around money. And the rest of the month, you can be frugal. You can do all the things that you want to do. So I think it's about balance. And it's about figuring out what your money values are and where you actually really do want to spend money and the places where you're allowing yourself to just go ahead and be frugal.

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37:04Yeah, absolutely. It is a process. It's a journey, just like your money is a journey. I look at it very much. There isn't a destination that you arrive to. There isn't a day for most of us, I will say, where you get to and you're like, wow, I mean, I just have the most amazing relationship with money. There's nothing that's going to knock me off course. For most of us, it's just this act of living a human experience where we're going to get triggered by things along the way. We're going to have these strong emotions around money. And so I look at it very much as a process in really understanding how you interact with money, how you want to interact with money, because those two things are very different for most of us.

37:49And what are some things that you can do every day? For some of us, it's every minute where you can calm your body and you can calm your mind when you're having one of those trauma responses, or you've basically uncovered a trauma pattern that might exist there. And so I really think it's about creating space, I think, between the trauma and you. And that is a process. It very much comes back to mindfulness techniques and being aware of what's going on in your mind and body. And then having some tools in the toolkit to calm yourself enough that you can move through the process, forward the process.

38:38And I believe every time you are in a trauma moment around money, just the more you understand, the more information that you have about what's happening, the better you can kind of move along the process. But I don't think you ever get to a point where it's like, well, I'm trauma-free and everything's perfect. I wish. I'm hoping for that. I know, me too. It would be so much easier. So what can trigger someone to experience symptoms of emotional trauma and money trauma? And what are some tools that you can use to help cope with these triggers? A lot of times it's people or places that trigger the money trauma.

39:19So it might be somebody that you have in your circle, even somebody you might have in your family, that when you're around them, you feel certain emotions around money. I will tell you, I absolutely love my dad to death. But when I'm around him and he is asking me anything about my career or money, I instantly feel like a five-year-old little child trying to prove to my dad that I'm doing well. And so I start having physical feelings. I start getting the heart racing. My voice gets very high. And I start to feel like I'm pushing my way through a conversation. And so, you know, it took me a long time to realize, oh my gosh, that's what's happening every single time.

40:07My dad's asking me anything closely related to money. And so I would say, you know, start by looking at those instances where you feel some sort of physical response to a money conversation, to a question being asked to you, or a behavior. You know, we talked about like going up and hiding the, you know, the shopping, whatever we bought shopping, and that we do it with maybe our partners today. You know, when you catch yourself in that moment, start thinking about, is it the person that is causing this to happen? Is it something back further than that that actually doesn't have anything to do with this person?

40:52Like, what is it in this moment that is causing me to have this physical reaction or this thought pattern around money? And so, you know, this is, Scott, when you ask about process, you know, to me, this is really the work you do in the process is being able to have a moment of pause where you recognize kind of what's happening. You don't have to have all of the answers. You know, the biggest step in this is just recognizing, okay, I'm in one of these moments and something is happening. So there are a lot of tools, you know, we can look to mindfulness. that's certainly one of the biggest tools in the toolkit that they teach in this designation that I went through.

41:35And that could be very simple things. It could be recognizing what's happening and changing the conversation if you're talking to somebody and they're the person that is making you feel a certain way about money. I use a technique because my brain can start spiraling around money. When that happens, I use a technique called noticing. And so what I do is I look immediately to the surroundings that I'm in and I start naming off things that I see. You know, right now I see trees and I see green and there's a yellow lamp next to me. I've got a computer screen that is pink. You know, I just start naming things that are around me.

42:18And what that does is tell my brain, it's okay. You can relax. You're not in a traumatic moment right now. You're just having a thought pattern that is tapping into a trauma event or trauma response that happened to you. So I do a lot of things like that. There are great breathing techniques. There's a technique called boxed breathing. I don't know if you've ever heard of this one, but it's a great breathing technique that slows down your nervous system so that your body can come to a place, hopefully, of peace. And it works like this. You breathe in for four seconds. You hold your breath for four seconds.

42:58You breathe out for four seconds. And you hold for four seconds. So you literally create a box with your breath. And I tell people to try that sequence maybe four or five times and just notice how it changes your body chemistry and how it also changes your brain chemistry. I think when we talk about anything around money, certainly about trauma is we've created this loop of thinking in our head where we just automatically go through this. Our brain is lazy. Our brain loves patterns. It loves to just repeat patterns over and over again. It's a very comfy place for us. And our brain also likes to tell us, it's okay.

43:44It's okay to freak out about money. Like that's normal. Everybody does this. It's not a big deal. But, uh, you know, there are ways again, to just tell our brain, no, we actually don't want to freak out about money. No, we actually don't want to have a trauma response. Um, gosh, but it's so individualistic. So I often tell people, you know, find something that works for you. If you're somebody who loves to go for walks or loves to do yoga, do things like that. If you like knitting, if you like cooking, if you like, you know, anything that can basically distract your brain when you're having a moment or you're having a trauma response, or you're feeling these intense emotions around money will calm down your nervous system and allow your brain to come back to a place of some level of peace so that you can kind of move through that, um, that moment without just completely breaking down.

44:37I think those are, are really great tips. I could, uh, I almost started doing the box breath myself. And wow, what a powerful tool in all of these situations. What a one of several powerful tools to deal with this. A lot of these tips are really for almost sounding like panic or the very, very strong emotions of money trauma. And I think they're fantastic. But perhaps are there any additional tools that are maybe for the lesser symptoms of trauma. Perhaps, for example, Mindy's trying to spend more money in certain situations or let go of that, the extreme frugality we've talked about in some of these past circumstances.

45:22Do you have anything on that next level removed from the more serious version of the trauma that many people experience? Yeah, I think back to journaling. I think journaling is really powerful. It's a very powerful way when we're not in an intense moment to have some sort of self-discovery. So I love an exercise called what if that happened? And I like to create a document and title it what if that happened? And, you know, for Mindy's situation, not wanting to spend money, I start with what if that happened? What if I spent money? What if I spent money today? What if I spent money on something that I was really wanted to do, but I have this fear of letting go with money and really kind of just let your brain and your body take over when you're writing?

46:12It could be anything and it could be mumbo jumbo, right? The whole point is we're getting out kind of what is our thought pattern in our brain that is stopping us from really being able to spend money on the things that we want to spend money. You know, certainly we're not talking about just going out and spending money. But again, it's about finding that balanced moment. So I like that exercise a lot because it gives you freedom to explore a different side of frugality. What would be the worst case scenario if I spent money? Would that mean that I wouldn't have enough money to X, Y, and Z? But then logically, I know I do have enough money for X, Y, and Z.

46:53Okay. So, well, what's going on there? And so I love that exercise a lot. It sounds really simplistic, but I have done it a million times over and I have walked so many people through this exercise. And there's always an aha moment of like, okay, so maybe this isn't that bad. Maybe I can start to create a little bit of a different pattern. And it actually isn't the worst case scenario that I've let myself believe all of these years. And so I think it's about, again, coming back to a place where you feel free to explore these things about money without even necessarily having to share it with anyone else.

47:37So there's great tools like that. I think also asking yourself some questions. I have a list of 10 many questions to ask yourself. and they're really rooted in kind of helping redefine your relationship with money. And we talked about the first question, which again, sounds so basic, but is so powerful is, how does money make you feel and why? And if you're feeling like you're in a moment of frugality, jotting down a note, I mean, is this a good thing that I'm in this moment of frugality or is there something that I'm trying to stop Or is there some blockade that I'm putting up? Why is that? And really kind of digging down to the why I think is so beneficial because, again, it's your relationship with money.

48:27You can be frugal. You can spend a lot of money. It doesn't matter. There's absolutely no judgment. The only place of judgment is yourself. So, you know, figuring out what do you actually want it to look like? What does your frugality, Mindy, what do you actually want it to look like? What do you want it to represent? And if it's not lining up with what you actually want it to represent, what are the changes you can make to bring it to that place? Yeah. So I'm furiously taking notes. I hope it doesn't feel like I'm being rude as my head is down and I am typing so frantically with everything that you're saying.

48:58What if that happened?

49:03My husband and I were on the Ramit Sethi podcast a few months ago talking about we can't spend money. And the big thing that kept coming up was I don't want to be wasteful. I don't want to spend my money. And it turns out that it's a waste of my money. And that goes back. I'm a grandchild of the depression that goes back to like both sides, both sets of parents. And like my mom's one of eight. My dad's one of seven. They never had any money at all because they were feeding all of these mouths and you don't want to waste anything. And, you know, that turns you into a hoarder and I could go down a really long side tunnel.

49:38But what if I spent money that turned out to be a waste? I would feel bad about that. Would it prevent me from eating? No. Would it, you know, that's a exercise that I'm going to do because I'm sure nobody wants to listen to me work this all out in my head right now. But that's a really great exercise. And then you just alluded to 10 money questions. Do you have a link to like a PDF or something with these 10 money questions? because I want to read those and start working on this problem that I didn't even know I had an hour ago. Thanks, Shauna, for coming here today. I have a way of creating more problems.

50:19But I promise you there's a good place of relief. Yes, absolutely. You can go to bit.ly slash 10, the number 10 money queue. And you can get that downloadable of 10 money questions to ask yourself. And I often tell people to take your time when you're going through this process of analyzing your relationship with money. Just as you said, Mindy, you might not even know what's there. And so I think it takes you a while to dig around a little bit. One of the questions I ask is what is your money happiness number? A lot of times people will throw out, I don't know, a million dollars,$5 million. Okay, why?

51:04But what is it about that number specifically? Or is that just a random number? And if it's just a random number, how can we back into actually finding the real number? What is the number that actually would bring you happiness and a place of peace and a place of fulfillment around money? So there's a lot of really interesting questions in there to kind of dig around. Yes, I am going to go grab those. Thank you. I was on that show on purpose. I had you come on this show on purpose. I want to figure this out. I just didn't even realize this was a thing. So thank you so much for this homework assignment.

51:44Yeah. And I think when we're talking about, Scott, you're asking about the smaller forms of trauma, the things that don't have the panic response, I think that we're looking to find these patterns that exist in our spending, saving, thought pattern, whatever it might be. And really, the only reason we're looking at any of this is because there are likely money goals, things that you talk about on your show all day long that people really want to achieve that they can't figure out how to get across the bridge to those things. And so by looking at money trauma and looking at really just the patterns that exist in your thoughts, feelings, actions, patterns, and behaviors around money, we can then figure out, okay, I'm frugal.

52:35I don't want to spend money. Let me understand why that is. But then let me also look at how is that stopping me or maybe helping me get to the place I want to go. And so that's really what I talk about, creating a bridge to kind of connect you over to a place that you can get to a healthier place, but also a place where you feel like you can achieve your goals. Yeah. And I was asking out of self-interest there, right? I personally rarely, maybe never have a panic response type to a money situation, But I often have discomfort or whatever, and I can't trace them back. I need to go through the exercises that you've talked about today on the show to kind of figure out where those are coming from to some degree.

53:29And so the next question I would wonder is how widespread is this? I imagine lots of people have these patterns that are informing their money situation. Could you give us an idea of how widespread you define trauma and maybe even break it into one or several buckets – two or several buckets? Perhaps the amount of folks in this country who have trauma that elicit the panic response on a regular or occasional basis and then the folks that may have it in a more subtle way. Yeah, I haven't specifically read any studies that have broken down trauma in a way. I will say from my own experience and from working with people and just people in my own circle that almost every single human has some form of money trauma.

54:19and I believe that a lot of money trauma also exists for people because of money mistakes that they've made that they really feel are life-shattering like this has to be the worst thing I've ever done around money maybe I forgot to pay a bill or maybe I took out too much in student loans or I took a I took a job that that paid less money and and you know now I'm really struggling or I'm living to paycheck to paycheck and I make a lot of money. Why is this happening? So I think that we all live in this vacuum of thinking that the mistakes that we've made around money are original and they're not.

55:00We've all made basically the same version of every money mistake. We're just all dealing with different factors, different numbers, different things at play. But one of the reasons I wanted to name my show, Everyone's Talking Money, is because we don't talk about money. You guys talk about it on your show. I talk about it on my show, but we don't walk around talking about money. And we certainly don't walk around talking about the negative things around money, our thoughts, our feelings, the things that we didn't do, our mistakes. And so that's what furthers along money being a very taboo topic and being very stress-filled.

55:36And so I think, you know, I would argue almost every human has some form of money trauma. It could be very mild, right? But there is something in there, some blockade that is getting in the way of you being able to move in the direction that you want to. Now, in terms of panic, I would say that, gosh, I don't know. I would tend to think maybe, you know, somewhere around 30 to 50 % of the population that I have found really can get in those panic moments or even more so just have a very strong bodily response and not understand what that is. So I would put that also in the traumatic bucket, if you will.

56:26I've worked with a lot of college graduates who had to obviously take out a lot of student loan. And for them, that created a panic sense of money trauma, because they would go out and get a job that couldn't possibly repay the student loans. And these student loans are just crippling to the money goals that they want to have. So I would tend to think the panic is somewhere around 30 to 50%. I would love for there to be like an official study on this for us to have a really good grasp on it. But just from my experience with people, I would say that it's, you know, somewhere around that. That's incredible.

57:03I, you know, I, I, I, I, I completely believe that. And, you know, I can't believe that this topic is not more widely discussed because I, I, I, I, how, how many people listening to this feel that bodily panic, emotive response to certain things or certain patterns in that that's being elicited by this discussion in this episode i mean that's going to be i'm sure it's going to be a staggering number and yeah i i it's just not it's just not something that's that's being addressed a wide widely here except for by you shauna so i think you're doing really important work and i got to really noodle on this particular issue and think through it because i think it's incredibly important for people's relationship with money And it's a big blocker.

57:5390 % of this is behavior. If you can't identify and control the emotive response to key things in your financial situation, how are you going to be able to resolve them and move forward? Yeah. I think specifically to, we haven't talked about this yet, but I'm an entrepreneur. I've been an entrepreneur my entire career and the art of being an entrepreneur can create a very traumatic money relationship. and I know that there's probably a lot of other entrepreneurs listening as well and just the fear around money of can I create enough money? Can I make my business successful? What happens if it isn't?

58:36Does that mean I have to go back and get a full-time job? What does that look like? Am I classified a failure if my business doesn't go forward? I see a lot of money trauma in the entrepreneurial circle that isn't really talked about because it's sort of under this guise of, well, this is just what it's like to be an entrepreneur. But there's some real physical, mental panic, fear, dread, all of those emotions that exist in just, I call it again, the art of being an entrepreneur that's very tough and very real. Okay. I take it back. I have a very strong bodily response to many issues that come up in the world of running the business here at BiggerPockets on a very regular basis.

59:23So, yeah. Sorry, Scott. I knew we'd find it somewhere. But how do we start to unravel our money trauma and even just start to recognize it? We've talked about things that give us heart palpitations and we start getting sweaty. and I'm having some reactions to this whole conversation again. Would you recommend a therapist? Is there anything that people can do on their own? What kind of therapist are you looking for? Yeah, there are certainly financial therapists. I think you could potentially go to any type of therapist. Obviously, you want somebody that's gifted in trauma and trauma response. So I think if you're trying to find any type of therapist, it's really important that you recognize that you're the one controlling whether you hire or don't hire a certain therapist.

1:00:17So put yourself in the seat of asking questions of that therapist before you hire them. Find somebody that you really feel matches up with your unique situation and your needs. I think a lot of times we just go out and find a therapist and hope that they're gifted in helping us, but remember that you are in control of that relationship and that conversation. So find somebody that really matches up with you.

1:00:46Therapy isn't an option for everyone because therapy is expensive. There's a real component of that. I found one of the most therapeutic ways actually of dealing with money trauma is having conversations, whether that is with a trusted friend, whether that is somebody in your family that doesn't trigger you, that you feel like you can have an open conversation where you can start to explore some of these things that you're noticing. So, you know, I have a, I have a girlfriend who, when I started to do this work around trauma with money, I would call her up and say, gosh, I'm, noticing these patterns around money and I'm noticing these emotions that I'm feeling.

1:01:33I don't necessarily know what it all means, but from a friend's supportive place, she was able to ask me questions without any experience other than just being a human and living life. But she was able to be a sounding board for me where I felt like I could talk about money. And when I could talk about it with somebody else that I trusted, it somehow gave me a permission slip to explore deeper the relationship and the feelings myself. So it's really interesting how that happens. So I think finding somebody that you could talk about. We've obviously talked about journaling. I cannot overemphasize journaling enough.

1:02:12It could be as simple as you take out a note, a blank piece of paper every single day, and You just write down, this is how I'm feeling about money today. This is what I'm noticing as this kind of happened today around money. It could even be, I don't even know what any of this means, but these are the sort of things that I felt and these are the thoughts that I had. And so what you're starting to do again is tell your brain and your body, it's okay to explore this. It's okay to start thinking about, well, what's the good side of this? And maybe what is the not so good side about this? And how is this stopping me?

1:02:48How is this not propelling me forward? Is there a small tweak or something I could try? So for me, my experiment, I should say, is can I go out to a nice dinner with my partner and not think about money and not talk about money after the fact? And it is like exercising a muscle for me. It is so hard for me to do because it is so automatic inside of me. But it's an experiment. So try different little tiny experiments with yourself. You know, what would it feel like to spend$5 and not care if it's wasteful or not? Like, could I do that? And then how could I, you know, feel about that? And what might that open up for me that then I could maybe walk that out a little bit further?

1:03:42So, you know, give yourself a safe space and some permission to just start exploring and playing around with this. Don't make it any heavier than it actually needs to be. I love it. And I think, you know, I just want to go back to the very beginning of this because I've heard a couple of themes here, right? It's under labeling it, trying to unpack where it's come from, what is causing it, why, what's in there, and then using this toolkit of which you've given us many tools to begin the process of addressing the trauma here. And so I would love to finish off with just that simple question, you know, and also posit by stating in my own life when I am experiencing something that is causing me to feel very strong negative emotive response.

1:04:33The simple act of labeling it and recognizing it and try attempting to say, why am I feeling this way? What is the thing there is the piece for me that unlocks everything else and begins to change the course. Do you agree with that? Do you think that just by recognizing our money traumas, that that is the key to unlocking the better path forward in all of this? A thousand percent because, again, it allows you to have a response. It allows you to have an understanding. And just in the awareness piece, you are doing a thousand, I mean, a million percent more than most of us do. Most of us just live locked up in fear, shame, guilt, anxiety, whatever it might be around money.

1:05:17So taking those moments to just recognize and say, oh, interesting, this is what's happening. You're starting to really change your interactions with money and you're changing your relationship with money. And I believe that's the first step in really walking through the process of getting to the other side. Awesome. Well, Shauna, we really appreciate you coming in and sharing your wisdom, opening our eyes to this incredibly widespread issue. I completely believe the estimates you threw out there for 30 to 50 % of people having not just trauma, but a level of trauma that elicits a very strong bodily response to that trauma with some frequency.

1:06:00I bet you that that's a very reasonable estimate out there. And thank you for sharing the toolkit for this. Absolutely. Yeah. Thanks for having me. I mean, this is my passion. This is my life work. So if I can just help somebody listening, maybe unlock something or feel a sense of peace, then I consider it job well done. I am excited to work through these 10 questions with my husband and get some answers. I downloaded it while we were wrapping up the show and I'm looking at them. I'm like, I'm not going to be able to answer these just bam, bam, bam. That's going to take some time. So I do actually really appreciate the homework because this is a problem, a project that I want to work on and overcome.

1:06:48Like Scott said, I can't believe that nobody is talking about this when this is so widespread. But here we are, 454 episodes into the BiggerPocketsMoney podcast, and we're just talking about it for the first time. So like with a name to it. So I am so happy that you were able to come on the show today, Shauna. Thank you so much. Thank you. All right. Before we sign off here, where can people find out more about you and find these resources? You can check out my podcast, Everyone's Talking Money. It is available on absolutely any podcast player. We do a deep dive into all things personal finance and money therapy.

1:07:28So you will find lots of different topics around this. and you can head to my website, everyone's talking, T-A-L-K-I-N money.com, or you can find a whole lot of extra resources around money. Thank you, Shauna. And we'll talk to you soon. Okay, Scott, maybe one of these days I'll be able to make it through an episode without crying. That was a really powerful episode. I am so thankful to Shauna to coming on and sharing with us what money trauma is, how to recognize it, how to start to deal with it and remove it from your life, how to recognize it, I think is the first step. And I, like I said before, I didn't think I had money trauma and this episode changed my mind.

1:08:17What did you think of the show, Scott? I thought it was a real eye opener and really thought provoking there. You know, I'll just leave some questions dangling for folks to think about. You know, I loved what she said about how money is the first relationship that most of us have or an early relationship that most of us have, I think, is a way to potentially rephrase that. And I wonder if most of us or all of us are experienced the first experiences of money are from a position of dependence in some way. And is there a way to noodle on that question and think through what are ways that we can try to negate this problem to some degree in the next generation?

1:09:01I think that's really, really that last point is so powerful because your money trauma may not even be your own, like Shauna said in the show. You could be living somebody else's money trauma, some ancestor's money trauma. I'm so thankful that she came on the show today. I would love to start a discussion in the Facebook group, which is facebook.com slash groups slash BP money talking about money trauma. What did you think of this episode? Do you have any additional tips maybe that you have gotten in dealing with your own money trauma or things that have helped you cope with triggers, things like that?

1:09:40I'd love to hear your thoughts on this episode and this topic. So again, biggerpockets.com. I'm sorry. at facebook.com slash groups slash BP money. So thank you for listening to this episode. I know that it got a little thick sometimes, but I think it's a really important topic and I'm so glad we were able to talk with the Shauna about it. So Scott, I think it's time to get out of here. Let's do it. That wraps up this episode of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. He is Scott Trench and I am Mindy Jensen saying way to deliver little lizard. If you enjoyed today's episode, please give us a five-star review on Spotify or Apple.

1:10:20And if you're looking for even more money content, feel free to visit our YouTube channel at youtube.com slash BiggerPocketsMoney. BiggerPocketsMoney was created by Mindy Jensen and Scott Trench, produced by Kaylin Bennett, editing by Exodus Media, copywriting by Nate Weintraub. Lastly, a big thank you to the BiggerPockets team for making this show possible.