456: The Harsh Reality Real Estate Syndicators (and Investors) Face in 2024

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29:17if my GP refis and has to bring money to the table in order to refinance, am I expected to kick that in since you keep saying I'm a partner in all this? Yeah. So there are a few things that can happen. So let's take a deal where we got a loan for$10 million and in two years that loan terminates and we have to refi into a new loan, the value of the property has dropped, and now we can only get a loan for$8 million, a refinance for$8 million. We get a refinance for$8 million, but we still have to pay off that $10 million loan that we had. So we need to come up with$2 million. This is what's called a cash in refinance.

29:59Not a situation anybody wants to be in, but this is what happens when values go down and people are forced to refinance. So in this case, the group, the syndication group, the operator needs to come up with$2 million to put into the deal. A couple of ways to do that. One, if the operator could have foreseen this coming, and a lot of times they can, and if there was an opportunity to save a bunch of money along the way while you're heading towards that refinance, for example, not paying investors cash flow, telling your investors a year before this situation occurred that, hey, we have a feeling in a year from now we could be in a bad situation where we're going to need to save a million or$2 million to put into a refinance.

30:42we're not going to be paying you distributions for the next year. Well, that's one option. And that's actually one reason why good syndicators will say, hey, we're not going to be paying you distributions for some period of time, or we're going to reduce distributions for some period of time. This isn't always a red flag. Sometimes operators are doing this proactively because they foresee a situation like this. So that's one option that they actually save up the money. Maybe they have money in reserves. Maybe they can use other money that they've raised in the deal that they were going to use for something else.

31:11So instead of building that dog park for$2 million, they're going to take it and put it into the refinance. So basically coming up with the money themselves in the deal. So that's number one. Number two, and again, you're going to want to read your documents, but for a lot of syndications, operators have the right to get a loan. Either they can loan money to the syndication themselves, or they can go out to a third party and raise money, additional money through a loan that can carry them over for something like this refinance. So that's a second option. They can put the money in themselves. Keep in mind that when operators put money into a deal through a loan, typically they're getting a decent interest rate, 6%, 8%, 10%.

31:49So you want to find out what's the interest rate they're going to get paid, because you don't want to incentivize your operator to lend money to the deal just to earn interest. But that's a second way. The third way and the most drastic way is what's called a capital call. And this is where operators go back out to all their investors and they say, we need you to put more money into the deal. Your capital call will either be a voluntary capital call or a mandatory capital call. A voluntary capital call is where basically the operator says, we need more money for this deal. In this case, we need$2 million.

32:23And we would like all of our investors to put in extra capital to basically help us raise that$2 million. But as a voluntary capital call, you're not required to do that. You can choose not to put more money in. If you choose not to put more money in, well, somebody else can put your share of the money in. The operator can put your share of the money in. Another investor can put your share of the money in. They can go out and find a new investor to put your share of the money in. You're going to get most likely diluted. Your investment percentage in the deal is going to get diluted by whatever amount you choose not to put in.

32:55You're not going to lose your investment. You're not going to be shut out of the deal. You're not going to be penalized any more than you might get diluted. That's a voluntary capital call. Or you can put the money in as requested and you don't get diluted. You'll maintain your equity share. The second, the mandatory capital call is a little bit more draconian. And that's where the operator has said up front in the documentation, if we do a capital call, you are now required to put more money in. If you can't put more money in, there's going to be some severe consequences, potentially as much as losing your entire investment.

33:29And so for a deal that has mandatory capital calls, you're going to want to make sure that you have money sitting in backup to put into that deal if things go south. This is especially important if you're investing out of, let's say, a retirement account. Because retirement accounts, typically, you can't just add money to it willy-nilly. You need to have that money there already. And so if you're in a situation where there's a mandatory capital call, you've invested through a retirement account, you need to re-up your investment and you don't have any money in your retirement account, you could be in a situation where you're forced to lose or get penalized to some degree in that investment.

34:05Yeah. Going back just with the purchase of commercial real estate, I am under the impression that commercial real estate doesn't have fixed rates for like 30 years, like a residential. It's more like an arm where there might be a fixed period of time, but then it resets. Am I correct? So that is the example of the rate resetting. That's the floating rate loan. And typically, it's resetting every month based on some benchmark. And so yeah, as rates go up and down, your mortgage is going to go up and down. Sometimes it's fixed for a year or longer, but often it's on a monthly basis. But it's actually pretty common for there to be fixed rate loans in the commercial real estate space.

34:56So we still get loans from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mack to large conventional lenders. And the most popular types of loans that we would get from Fannie Mae or Freddie Mack are seven, 10, 12 years fixed rate loans. Now they're amortized over 20 years, typically maybe 25 or 30, which means at the end of seven or 10 or 12 years, the loan won't be fully paid off. And if you still have that loan, you're going to have to either refinance so you're going to have to pay it off. But the interest rate is typically going to be fixed for that seven or 10 or 12 years. So you don't need to worry about interest rates going up in that period of time.

35:31Now, one third of the market is on variable interest rates. And that creates a huge problem. So one of the things we haven't talked about, we talked a lot about how interest rates are putting pressure from a financing perspective on existing syndications. They're also putting pressure on valuations and the exit valuations of those in the form of rising cap rates. I'd love to ask you about that. And to pile onto that question, I'd like to ask you about the pressures that outside of financing, syndicators are seeing on NOI growth in the form of rents not coming in as expected. Austin, Texas, for example, to pick on one market, rents are down year over year.

36:07And costs are going up for insurance, for labor, for those types of things. So can you talk about how interest rates coupled with these NOI pressures are hurting valuations? Yeah, absolutely. So when we talk about valuating commercial real estate, how we determine how much a piece of commercial real estate is worth, we care about two numbers because there's a formula. And the formula is net operating income, basically the amount of income the property is generating, divided by cap rate. And cap rate is basically just a multiplier in the market. It's expressed as a percentage. So a higher cap rate actually means values are lower.

36:46Lower cap rate means values are higher. And yes, people are getting, and when I say people, I mean deals and operators and investors are getting squeezed on both sides of that equation today. So we'll start at the top of the equation, the net operating income. So your income that the property is generating is influenced by two things, how much money you're bringing in and how much you're spending on expenses. And certainly when you have a softening market, you're going to be bringing in less money for a couple of reasons. One, rents aren't growing as quickly. And a lot of times in these deals, we're projecting that rents are going to continue to grow at two or three or 4 % a year.

37:23But in a lot of places right now, we see rents growing at 0 % a year or 1 % a year or negative even in some markets. And so we're seeing less rent growth than we were expecting. And that's hurting our projections. Number two, vacancies are going up. A couple of years ago, we were seeing properties where literally 98, 99, 100 % occupied most of the time. These days, we're going back to the historical averages of vacancy or occupancy, which is 92, 93%. And so we have more units empty and we're not collecting rent on those units. But even on those units where we aren't empty, where we have tenants, we're seeing more default on rent.

38:06A lot of people are starting to struggle because rents are going up. People are getting their hours cut. A lot of people aren't making nearly as much money as they were relative to inflation a couple years ago. And so we're seeing this thing called economic vacancy, which means we have people in the units, but they're not able to pay their rent. And this is actually worse than regular vacancy where the units are empty because we can put a new person in the unit. But with economic vacancy, somebody in the unit who's not paying, we're not going to get any money out of that unit until we evict them.

38:38And we're seeing a huge issue with evictions these days. I invest a lot in Houston, Texas. Right now, the backlog of evictions in Houston is over 80 ,000 people. There are 80 ,000 cases in front of judges for evictions, which means evictions are taking four months, six months, eight months to get people out of units. If they're not paying in that time, that unit is basically, not only are you not getting any revenue for that unit, but most likely the tenant is doing damage to the unit. There's going to be more renovation when they actually do leave. And so, yeah, there's a lot of problems on the revenue side.

39:12Then on the expense side, we're seeing insurance rates go through the roof. So people are paying a lot more for insurance than they were a couple of years ago and more than they were expecting. With valuations having gone up the last couple of years, we're seeing property taxes in a lot of areas start to go up. What we see is in a lot of areas, property taxes aren't reassessed every six months or every year. It might be every two or three or five years. And so we're seeing a lot of places where property taxes are jumping up because values are so much higher than they were three or five years ago.

39:42And then labor and material costs for renovations, for maintenance, payroll costs. So for a lot of large commercial properties, we have leasing people who sit in an office all day to meet tenants. We have maintenance people who are there on call 24-7 to deal with maintenance issues. They get paid a salary and salaries and payroll are going up. So on the income side of things, we're seeing a drop in income, we're seeing an increase in expenses. And so this number called net operating income is dropping. So that's one side of the equation. The other side of the equation is cap rates. And again, that's just some multiplier in the market that tells us how much a property is worth.

40:22And as you pointed out, Scott, cap rates have been going up. And there are a lot of reasons for this that we don't have to go into or we can if you want. But the fact that cap rates are going up means that values are going down. The multiplier for a property in a particular market is dropping. And so values are just less than they were based on the same amount of income a year ago or two years ago or five years ago. And so both sides of these equations are getting hit, which means the value of these properties are dropping significantly. We've seen 20 % to 25 % value drops for a lot of, at least in the multifamily real estate world.

40:58Office space has seen a drop even higher in a lot of markets. Self-storage is starting to see a lot of softening and values coming down. So across a lot of different asset classes, we're starting to see values drop considerably. And it's a result of both income and cap rates changing. And I'll also talk about supply, which is a major factor. A lot of multifamily construction begins one, two, three years in advance. And it goes through permitting processes and long processes to get approved by the city and plan out, design, and build. And we actually have 900 ,000 multifamily units currently under construction in this country.

41:42And again, this is all regional. So some of this supply is going to really hit in certain regions, which can impact your rent growth to a large degree as well. Do you agree with those additional points? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there are so many variables that come into play here that it's really hard to kind of predict where things are headed. But it's very obvious that today that a A lot of things are conspiring to make it very difficult for these large commercial deals to continue to operate. I like to say that the issue isn't necessarily a bad market because in a lot of cases, commercial real estate investors are used to a bad market, high interest rates.

42:21We talk about interest rates or mortgage rates being at 6, 7, 8%. Well, historically, they're at 6, 7, 8%. So 6, 7, or 8 % is not necessarily a high number. The problem isn't that number or any other number that we're talking about. The issue is that we've seen such a radical change from a year or two ago when people were buying these properties. They went in with certain expectations because mortgage rates were low, vacancy was low, rents were going up quickly. And so they projected that things would keep going the way they were going. But here we are two years later, and a lot of things have changed.

42:54And so it's the change in economic conditions that are causing a lot of these problems, not the conditions themselves. Okay. So one other question here around this. I'm an LP. I'm in a deal. Let's use my$100 million deal example that we talked about earlier. I have$35 million in equity. You said it might be down 20 % in some markets. Now we have$80 million in asset value and$5 million in equity. That's obviously really bad news for me. In the REIT case, we saw REIT valuations crash over the last 19, 20 months. We saw them go down 33%. We just talked to Yusi Escola from Seeking Alpha, who is a great analyst in that space.

43:39When I think about the syndication market, these are private investments and private funds. They're not publicly traded, so they're not valued on a continuous basis. How should I think about that as an LP if my syndicator is not – of course, they're not going to get it appraised on a daily basis. But how should I think about that in terms of understanding my position and whether I'm in trouble or not? It's a tough question. And I feel like there's two questions in there. There's one, how do you value your interest in a particular deal? And for that, I would say that's above my pay grade. We all have to do things differently.

44:16for a lot of syndicators, a lot of operators, we will provide valuations at the end of the year, but we're not doing formal appraisals because a lot of retirement companies, self-directed IRAs are going to ask for a valuation that's a requirement. And so we will provide those, but in a lot of cases, we'll basically just provide the same number that we bought it at. We'll say that the value hasn't changed. Even if it's gone up, we're going to say it hasn't gone up. It's whatever we bought it at. So asking your operator what the value of the property is, typically you're not going to get a good answer because as you mentioned, they're probably not going through some formal appraisal process even on an annual basis.

44:56So that's number one. But from the perspective of how do you know how an asset is performing, this is where it's important to have done your homework up front. It's really important to have found an operator that communicates well, an operator that has been in situations before that they've had to handle difficult situations and to find out how they did that. We rely on our syndicators, our operators to be communicating to us. And I'm a passive investor in a lot of deals. And so I've seen the gamut of those syndicators who communicate really, really well, who are going to tell me all the problems.

45:36Probably they're going to tell me more than I want to I know I'm probably one of those as well. I probably tell my investors more than I should because I'm just, I'm a blabbermouth and I like to sleep well at night and I like everybody to know everything. Not necessarily a good thing, but that's what I do. To the other end of the gamut where operators that don't communicate at all until there's a major issue. And so you need to decide what level of communication you're looking for. And that's something you need to vet early on or before you actually make the investment to ensure that the level of communication that you want is the level of communication you're going to get.

46:12Unfortunately, I don't have a good answer for after the deal has been done because there are rarely any requirements for a syndicator to communicate with their investors. The one exception is if there's a tax audit, a lot of documents, at least our documents, all basically say if there's any IRS action or an audit, we need to communicate that to all of our partners. But other than that, we don't have any legal requirements to communicate. But again, good syndicators are going to communicate. So you want to ask upfront, how often am I going to get an update? Is it monthly? Is it quarterly? Are you going to do Zoom calls for your investors on some regular basis so that we can ask questions?

46:53Are you going to make financials available? So a good number of operators actually make the full financials for the property available either quarterly or semi-annually. And so if you have access to the financials, even if you don't hear from the operator themselves, if you're savvy enough, you should be able to look through the financials and see, if not knowing that there's a major problem, at least see trends. So certain numbers are trending in the wrong direction. And so that's a really good question to ask your operators before you get into a deal. Are you going to provide financials? Because if the answer is yes, you're going to have a lot more insight into the deal than if the answer is no.

47:31But at the end of the day, once you turn over your money, your opportunity for changing anything has been severely limited. So you just have to hope that you picked a good syndicator at that point. So let's say I'm in a couple of syndications, listen to this, and I'm going to have a couple, I'm, some are going to go well, some are going to be bad outcomes, right? Because of the pressure is here. So even great, sophisticated, awesome operators who are making good decisions the whole way can just be a victim of circumstance for the timing of one particular deal or whatever with that. As a LP, how do I, how, what are some things that you would be thinking about?

48:07Like, hey, this is a problem that I should be really worried about because, uh, bad bets, bad decisions being made on the part of the person running my money. And this one was really just great bet, great business plan, executed well. The market just worked against us this time. How do I make that distinction? Or what are the things that you're looking at in the ones that you're an LP on? Yeah, it's a hard question because you never know what's going through the mind of the person operating the deal. There's so many variables involved that, again, I often get asked the question, why would anybody get a variable rate loan?

48:42But when you really understand the mechanics of how these deals work, there are times when you either have to do it or where it may be a smart calculated bet. We have a deal where we did a variable rate loan. We've faced the same risks as everybody else. We're in a situation right now where that third risk, that insurance policy, that rate cap, we paid$30 ,000 for our rate cap when we bought it back in 2020. Now that it's expiring after three years, we have to renew and it's looking like we're going to pay close to$400 ,000. So$30 ,000 to$400 ,000. And so we had really good reason for why we did that.

49:21And our justification, I'd like to think we didn't make a bet. Well, in retrospect, it was the wrong decision, but we didn't have a lot of other options at the time. Um, and so it's not so much about, um, about what the decision was early on, because a lot of times there's good rationale for those decisions. And it, it, I, even, I feel like I'm a pretty good syndicator, but the deals where I'm an LP, I would never question the people I'm investing with. Um, at some point I had to trust them to make the right decision and to make decisions about things that I just didn't have as much information as they did.

49:55The bigger question for me is how do they handle it? The bigger question for me is, are they proactive? And so not giving myself a pat on the back because we did get ourselves in a situation where we have this expiring insurance policy. But one of the things I like to see from my syndicators when I'm a passive investor, and one of the things that we did was we knew that this was a risk a year ago. A year ago, we knew that we were a year away from this expiring rate cap. We knew that rates had gone up tremendously a year ago. And so what we said to our investors a year ago was, we're going to be cutting our distributions.

50:30We're going to be distributing less money. And in fact, we went to zero distributions for much of the last 12 months because we knew how much money we wanted to have saved in reserves as a worst case scenario should interest rates keep going up, which they did. So now that we are coming upon that time where we have to renew our insurance policy and we have to renew for two years, we have$800 ,000 in the bank that we can use to rebuy that insurance policy. Sucks for us and our investors that they missed out on a year of distributions. And that's something I have to live with and I have to explain that to my investors.

51:07But I would much rather have done that than tell my investors for the last year, everything's great, no worries, don't worry. And then we get to where we are today and say, now we're$800 ,000 short, what are we going to do? And so we want to see, I want to see that my operators that I'm investing with are being proactive from that perspective. And so the first thing I would say is just because you see distributions getting cut doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing. In fact, it could mean it's a good thing. You'd rather see your operator do that early rather than too late. So again, it's not so much the decisions that operators made a couple of years ago.

51:46Certainly there were situations where operators were way too aggressive, made decisions that they probably shouldn't have made. But instead of second guessing at this point, it's really more important to see how your operators are responding to situations where they could potentially have a lot of risk. Love it. I know Mindy has a question here. I just want to chime in with, these are bets. Everything that we're talking about is bets. There can be good bets and bad outcomes, there can be bad bets and bad outcomes are going to be bad bets and good outcomes with that. And I think that's, that's where you got to use your judgment and see how folks are handling things.

52:20Um, you know, because the new, a new dawn will emerge for this asset class in a general sense. And you want to be smart about it and understand that any asset class is going to be cyclical real estate, uh, single family, real estate, multifamily, commercial real estate, the stock market, all these asset classes are going to be cyclical and you got to be able to separate good bet, bad outcome, and the opposite. Here's the thing to remember about these deals, and people often ask, should I be investing in a syndication now, and what are the risks longer term? Keep in mind, most syndication deals are projected to last somewhere between five and seven years.

52:57And if you look at an economic cycle from the worst part of the market to the best and back down to the worst, it's typically five to seven years historically. The last one went 12 years. It was a really long economic cycle. But historically, economic cycles are five to seven years, which means if you can withstand the headwinds of the deal, if you can withstand the worst things that can happen in the deal, there's going to be some point in that deal where it's an optimal time to sell and you're going to make money. So the key isn't so much of is now a bad time to be buying, is now a bad time to be selling.

53:32The question is, can you withstand all of the economic headwinds and all the issues that you potentially face in this deal long enough that you can get into the next part of the cycle where things are going to be better and where it's going to be a better opportunity to sell. And if a deal can survive long enough, it's going to make money. So you want to make sure that your operator is in the mindset that we're going to do whatever we have to to survive. Because again, whether it takes three years or five years or 10 years, eventually there's going to be a money-making opportunity as long as that deal can survive long enough.

54:04Okay, Jay, this is something I get a lot. What do you think about non-accredited investors investing in syndications? So to me, and this is a personal opinion, I've met a lot of non-accredited investors who are a lot more financially savvy than some accredited investors that I've met. And as far as I'm concerned, there's not a direct correlation between being accredited and being a savvy investor. Certainly, there's something to be said if you've achieved a million dollars in net worth or if you have a couple hundred thousand dollars a year in income. It probably means it's more likely that you have some financial education or some financial savviness.

54:51But again, there's not a direct one-to-one correlation. So as far as I'm concerned, I think it's less important. Are you accredited or non-accredited? It's more important. Do you understand the risks? Are you investing a significantly or a nominally small percentage of your portfolio such that if you were to lose that investment, it wouldn't hurt you considerably? and you understand who you're investing with and what the investment you're making is. The SEC is looking to revise accredited investor definitions. They're likely to do two things over the next couple of years. One, they're likely to raise that million dollar net worth.

55:35I've heard if you index it to inflation, it's probably closer to 5 million now, but they're probably likely to raise that to$2 or$3 million, but they're also likely to institute an exception for people that take a test. Basically, if you can prove that you have some financial knowledge, you're financially savvy enough that you can meet accredited investor status, even if you don't meet it from a financial standpoint. So that to me would be an optimal result, allow people to prove that they're financially savvy enough to make these types of investments. I do believe that The government has the right to protect people that don't know what they're doing to some degree.

56:16But I just don't think that the current definition of accredited achieves that goal. Jay, thank you so much for coming on to BiggerPocketsMoney today. The episode 219 that we recorded with you a couple of years ago, one of my favorites of all time, and I continue to get feedback about that from folks to this day because of the value and the good, honest, forthright opinion on how to do this. some due diligence on that. And I think that it probably saved a lot of people who listened to that show some money, even in the context of the negative pressures in the current environment. And today to come on as an operator and talk about the realities of the market and the hard times and pausing of distributions and that kind of stuff, as an honest, straightforward approach and humility around that, I think it just speaks the world of your character and the prospects for your businesses over the next decade or so.

57:07So really, really appreciate it and admire you and all that you've accomplished and your courage to come in and talk about the difficulties in this industry in the current environment and the way you're playing the game to the best of your ability in that. So really appreciate it and grateful for all your contributions over the years and look forward to seeing what comes next. I appreciate that. And I want to end with this, that we talked a lot on the last episode about asking operators the hard questions. And one of the hard questions is give me a situation where things didn't go the way you expected them to go.

57:41And I just want to remind everybody that's listening that you want an operator to have an answer to that question. It's not bad when they come back and say, here are all the problems that I've had. The important thing is that this follow-up question of how did you rectify the situation? How did you mitigate the risk? That they have a good answer for that. If you get an operator that says, no, I've never had any problems. I've never been in a situation where anything's ever gone wrong. That to me is a much bigger red flag than somebody who says, yeah, I have had things go wrong. Let me tell you about how I addressed it.

58:14So you will talk to operators this year and next year and forever in the future, people that were doing deals now that are going to have some stories about things that went wrong. Again, that's not necessarily a red flag and I'm not here to beat up any other operators because we're all going through this. And the key is that we're doing the right things by our investors along the way. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much. Again, can't give you enough praise and gratitude for all you do for BiggerPockets and the real estate investing community. And today is no exception. So thank you. Love you guys.

58:46Love you more, Jay. Jay, if somebody was looking for you online, where would they find you? It's easy. Jscott.com. Just go to letter J, S-C-O-T-T.com. Jscott.com. Check him out. He is a wealth of information. Jay, of course we love you. We love all of the information that you so freely share with our listeners. And our listeners love you too. I'll speak for them. They all love you so much. Thank you. We will see you at BPCon. Everybody who is attending BPCon will see you too. Okay, Scott. That was Jay Scott. And I love him. I love his candor. I love his ability to really share the warts that the syndication space is either facing or will be facing very soon.

59:36And I don't feel like he was throwing anybody in particular under the bus and just instead giving an overall, hey, if you're investing in syndications, this is what you need to look out for. What did you think of the show? I can't gush enough about Jay Scott. Jay is one of the smartest people you're ever going to meet. He's breathtakingly transparent. He has been for 15 years. He joined BiggerPockets in 2008, and you can go back and see his post where he documents the detailed outcomes of all of his flip investments, many of which were huge winners and a couple of warts in there. He's done real estate all over the country and across multiple different strategies.

1:00:15And I believe that he is taking great bets and making great things there. And even he's struggling and he's willing to admit it and continue that transparency around the market. And I just think that there's a lot of sobering lessons in today's episode. I think that a lot of people who are in syndications are going to be facing a lot of trouble as the commercial real estate market continues to face headwinds to the back half of this year into 2024. And we're privileged to have that opinion and perspective and, again, breathtaking transparency from someone in the space that is running funds there and facing those headwinds in there.

1:00:54A lot of folks, I think, are not going to be as forthcoming, but hopefully bigger pockets can change that. And we can create a community where folks are willing to discuss the troubles and challenges and valuation pressures and cash flow problems that are impacting the syndication space. Because at some point, maybe it's right now, maybe it's next year, maybe it's in two years, maybe it's in five years. There will be great opportunities, again, in the space to invest. And this is an asset class that I know a lot of people are interested in. It's all bets. It's all allocation. can't put all your eggs in one basket where you can lose it all.

1:01:25But it's certainly been tough for syndicators in the past. And again, privilege to learn from Jay. Yep. And like you said, near the end, if you're going to be investing in syndications, know the risks, understand what you're getting yourself into and read every word in the document, ask the sponsor questions and keep asking questions until you understand the answers. All right, Scott, should we get out of here? Let's do it. That wraps up this episode of the BiggerPocketsMoney podcast. Again, go listen to episode 219 when Jay just does a deep dive into the concept of syndications in general. This is Scott Trench.

1:02:10I am Mindy Jensen saying, can't stay Blue Jay. If you enjoyed today's episode, please give us a five-star review on Spotify or Apple. And if you're looking for even more money content, feel free to visit our YouTube channel at youtube.com slash BiggerPocketsMoney. BiggerPocketsMoney was created by Mindy Jensen and Scott Trench. Produced by Kaylin Bennett. Editing by Exodus Media. Copywriting by Nate Weintraub. Lastly, a big thank you to the BiggerPockets team for making this show possible.