REITs Have Under Performed for 25 Years. Is the Next Decade Different?

23:33But if you're willing to do the work, I think that there is some very attractive opportunities. And we see these big private equity players that are very highly sophisticated. They are certainly doing the work and investing billions of capital right now in rates because they essentially allow you to buy real estate at a steep discount with net asset value. And historically, whenever they've traded at such large discounts, eventually they have recovered and richly rewarded investors. There was Janus & Henderson, which is a big investment firm, come out with an investment study. This is already a few years back, but the study showed that historically when REITs have traded at a 28 % discount to NAV or more, they have on average then in the following three years nearly doubled your money.

24:14And obviously this is historical and it's an average. It doesn't mean that this is going to happen over the coming years. I think the discount to NAV is actually a bit smaller today on average as well. But the point is that historically, when you've gotten to buy REITs at a big discount, you've gotten to earn pretty good returns over the coming years. But yes, it is work to select those REITs. And you may not participate in those returns if you just buy something like the VNQ, or perhaps your returns will at least get partially diluted by some of these REITs that are poorly managed or on troubled assets, like some office buildings that are facing oversupply or some over-leveraged REITs that are really feeling the pain of rising interest expense.

24:52So yeah, it is just like private real estate is time consuming. You have to study your market. You need to meet brokers. You need to inspect properties. Similarly, REITs can be quite time consuming as well. Awesome. So let me transition to kind of attractive sectors here. I'd like to start and then hear your opinion here. But I have kind of three theses that I'm interested in exploring. I have committed money to only one of these so far. The first, which I did place a small position in, is office real estate. My belief is that office is a really unique and interesting opportunity right now where a good portion of the office buildings that are vacant right now will never really functionally return to being offices again, right?

25:34You have a large tenant who vacated, their building's old, it's useless, it's gone. And that means that vacancy rates are overstated in many parts of the market sector because they're including these buildings that are just not really competitive anymore. And the second part of this is that a lot of leases still are going to mature in the next few years with tenants who have no reason to renew or will renew with much less space. That is simultaneously overstating occupancy in the better stuff right now. So you have a really interesting analysis challenge, but it boils down to in markets where people are moving and businesses are moving.

26:07In the class A sector, I think you have a really long tailwind for demand for return to office in that sector. and you may have very low pricing priced on today's occupancy rates. I made a modified version of that here locally in Denver in an office building that I thought I had a chance to fill back up when it was positioned really well over the next seven years of our hold. But when I was looking at this from a REITs perspective, there seems to be moderate opportunity. It doesn't seem like it's really fully priced in that this is a deep bear market in that specific expression of the thesis. And it seems like if it was, then you have to really go into a market that you may be less comfortable with.

26:42Like Dallas, Texas, people seem to already be pricing this is going to happen back in. But in Denver, perhaps, they're not really pricing that in. Maybe rightfully so. But what's your opinion on this in a nutshell? I've gone very fast here, but has this occurred to you? Have you thought through this thesis? Generally speaking, yeah, I agree that clearly the gap is growing a lot between the Class A office building with great amenities that's very well located versus this very generic office building. The gap is getting enormous. And so if you're asking me, if I'm generally bullish on office, including these generic office buildings, then I would say no.

27:18But these Class A buildings can be very attractive investments probably over time. And, you know, most office streets, they focus on these Class A new built, modern and great amenities type of buildings, often in supply constrained markets like in New York City. And so because of that, while their market sentiment has taken a hit, it's not quite as much as many would expect, given this narrative going around that offices are not needed anymore, everybody can work remotely, and AI is going to lead to major white labor force disruption and so on. But no, I agree with you. I think that in many ways, the demise of these lower quality buildings is going to benefit these higher quality buildings as tenants are moving out and they are consolidating, perhaps leasing a bit less space, but they are leasing that space in the higher quality buildings to motivate their employees to get back to the office.

28:10With that said, really, one main thing that concerns me about office potentially is that I do wonder if some of this lower quality stock will change hands, get new owners sometime over the coming years with new owners coming in with much lower basis, which will then allow them to heavily reinvest in these properties to try to make them somewhat more competitive with the higher quality buildings. and they will not ever be quite as high quality as these newer built nice properties, but that could perhaps bring some new competition suddenly to the market with this, let's say, class B, but improved, competing a bit more with class A on the pricing.

28:47That's one element that concerns me a bit. If we see a lot of these empty buildings, see new owners coming in with lower basis over the coming years. Well, second thing is how is AI going to impact the office sector? I think that But in the near term, it may be a net negative where companies are, you know, using some of those efficiencies to cut down their labor force. However, for the long term, I think that you can also make a very bullish case. I think that AI could potentially lead to an explosion in new small business formation because it's becoming easier than ever before to start almost any type of business.

29:21And if that's the case, likely we'll have a lot more competition, actually, for good office buildings over time. But yeah, I kind of myself put it in the two difficult baskets so far, the office sector, and decided to focus on other easier plays in the REIT market, given that discounts you now have, the valuations are not that different between, let's say, office and apartment communities or service-oriented retail, which is easier for me to see the bull case. But I certainly think that there is a compelling argument to be made for long term to buy these good office buildings. I went and walked in office building, you know, maybe six months, eight months, nine months ago now.

29:57And I think the guy got this thing for like 7 million bucks, 150 ,000 square foot office building right in the middle of downtown Denver. So they're giving it away for free. Right. I mean, that's that's like it's effectively I got it for free. Right. Unlevered. I think they bought it unlevered. And so now it's just like I have some costs to operate this thing. But if it fills back up, I'm going to make 70 million dollars on the exit, you know, at a 10 cap or, you know, if I can if I can ever get there. Or I'm going to lose this and then some money and have to demolish the thing. And so that's an interesting bet.

30:24That's what I think is really fun about office right now for investors today is that's not my kids college fund here, but you can have potentially good odds on a series of those types of bets in the sector, depending on how you want to go about it. So that's, I think, the case in a nutshell. And I think when you frame it like that, I think it's too hard for most people. But if you have a sleeve of these kind of side bets, maybe there's a case that there's mathematical alpha in some place in there. So that's one part. The second thesis I have is multifamily. I was late on multifamily. I put some money in in 2020 or 2021 into some syndications, and I write that down pretty heavily at this point.

30:59I count it to zero. Maybe I'll get something out of it, I don't know, in some apartment complexes. But by 2023, we were seeing – it was clear what was going to happen in that space over the next few years. I would have said 2023, 2024, and 2025 would be tough. But what I'm surprised at is that the timeline keeps extending. And I think what's happened here is banks have been very generous or not very generous, maybe scared, some combination of fear and greed from the banks. And they've been extending a lot of the credit lines so that the forced selling did not begin in mass before 2026. We are now seeing some forced selling, forced liquidations in the space.

31:36That is steadily ticking up. So 2027, 2028, who knows what that's going to look like. But it seems like the time to express a thesis in multifamily is when you see large amounts of forced selling really heavy underway for a while. And we have not been there yet. That's what surprised me is that the observed market condition where to me it would be a really good time to put money, you know, go pretty big there. And we just haven't had that in the apartment space yet. So what's your thought on that from a macro perspective? And then I'm sure that it varies regionally, of course, as you look at it.

32:06Seems like just like you have grown more and more uncertain about the multifamily sector, because, you know, back in 2024, I remember everybody was saying that 2025 will be the year when finally same property and high growth turns positive. And we, you know, the oversupply gets absorbed in most markets and we turn the corner, things get better. Then 2025 turned into 2026 will be the year. I'll say this, I'm going to be straight wrong now in 2026, because I would have said rent growth was going to be really strong here in 2026 because the deliveries, I'm going to be straight wrong on that one. It's going to be down and down substantially in Denver in particular.

32:43I don't know how I'm reasonably insulated with my duplexes so far. I've certainly had a couple of vacancies, but man, I'm just straight wrong. I would have expected that absorption to be well underway by this point two or three years ago. Same. And if it makes you feel better, I think it's not just you and me who are wrong. If you listen to the REIT management teams in 2025, most of them were expecting rent growth already to accelerate in 2026 and simply hasn't happened. And now everybody's talking about 2027. But as the year progress, I feel like more and more people are again getting more concerned that actually it's probably going to be 2028.

33:17You know, it's been significant supply and then just not enough demand growth, don't have much migration. We have like there's a lot of factors why just the market has remained surprisingly weak. And so that has caused me to slow down some of my purchases of multifamily real estate in favor of other property sectors. But even then, you know, if let's say cap rates for a given sub sub sector of the multifamily is, let's say, five, five and a half percent. but you can get something that's representative of that in the REIT sector at 6.5%, as an example, an implied cap rate. That is quite attractive, in my opinion, long term.

33:55It's good management, not heavily leveraged with an attractive strategy, with a REIT that's selling assets and buying back shares to create value, take advantage of the spread. So, you know, just not theoretical. They're actually taking bold steps to try to take advantage of this discount. I think that that can still be quite attractive from a risk reward perspective, not necessarily, you know, as an investment that will generate huge returns, just like potentially these office buildings, but as a more conservative investment that, you know, AI will not be able to disrupt, will always in the roof of our head.

34:30So I like that aspect of multifamily, but like - That's where the robots start building homes. There's nowhere to hide. Yeah, potentially. But I think that if you go that far in the rabbit hole of AI, I think that then it's important to start considering the value of real estate in real terms rather than nominal, because I think that if robots are literally building everything, I think that you'll see the cost of most goods and services still drop a lot more than real estate. So in real terms, the value of real estate will still hold its own quite well. I feel the same way. Yeah, that's how I've expressed it in the past there.

35:04It's exactly what you just said. If you're betting on deflation, what's going to deflate the least? Yes. And so in real terms, real estate will still hold its value and its purchasing power measured by most other goods and services. And obviously, you still have the land, you have the building permit, you have the bureaucracy, you need financing, you still need building materials. So yes, it may come down somewhat, but probably not as much as many other goods that can be produced at scale in some factories by robots, as an example. Here's another question, actually, as a deep dive on the end. I understand the multifamily and residential real estate space much better than I do the office financing piece.

35:41I mean, it's actually very simple in some of these commercial spaces. But in multifamily, you know, I see some real wacky financing stuff going on in single family and multifamily, especially as the portfolios get complex, literally to the point where I was pitched a syndication deal once. and here's the purpose. It was like a portfolio of single family homes and they're being purchased at a seven cap. Great. Then there was a really complex debt structure that involved like short-term, some short-term components, some longer duration stuff, some balloons, like all these different crazy things.

36:15And the return of this thing was like 11 or 12%. And I was like, if you assume three and a half percent appreciation and seven cap, you get the 10 and a half cap. And I know it's like a little crude way to do it, But why are we doing all this for 100 basis points of return on the financing piece? It's kind of crazy when you just buy the thing paid off. This is what I've done. I bought some paid off properties last year. It looks like rents went down right afterward. That was not the thesis in there. But again, I'm still doing fine with it because it's unlevered. I'm getting an OK return on the thing.

36:45Why is that not being expressed more in the REIT space right now? And why are they going to these crazy lengths with the financing? And how do I then underwrite, untangle the mess of financing that goes on? at a lot of these REITs. Yeah, I mean, in the case of your syndication, I mean, I don't know, but I would assume that if you didn't have all this financing and you looked at the potential unlevered return after fees, probably it would have been quite a bit less than 10 and a half. So maybe part of the difference is the fees that the syndicators were trying to take for themselves. Same with the REIT sector, right?

37:15So to a lesser degree. You're right. So in the REIT sector, you have some REITs that take so much debt, they are so greedy and create such complex capital structures that eventually push them into bankruptcy. I mean, it's quite rare in the REIT sector, but you'll have a lot of REITs that turn into value traps where they take a lot of, they're too greedy, they try to maximize the size of the portfolio. And that comes with taking a lot of leverage and very complex structures. And in the end, this was supposed to allow you to earn better returns with the leverage. But in the end, actually in the REIT sector, we've seen that the REITs with the lower leverage have delivered better returns and highly leveraged REITs over the long run, because not only they avoid the big crashes during downturns, but on top of that, they're able to act aggressively and buy properties of distressed sellers when times are tough.

38:05And that creates a lot of value over the long run. And because of that, most REITs have now learned their lesson. And especially following the great financial crisis, REITs have been gradually deleveraging. And so the average loan to value in the REIT sector is today in the 30 to 40 % range, which is quite conservative by most private real estate investment. You know, most private real estate investors commonly will use 50%, 60%, 70 % loan-to values, or even more in some cases. So by those standards, REITs are actually quite conservative today. And most of them don't have a very complex capital structure.

38:38But you're right that there are quite a few that are. And one company that lost me quite a lot of money is called Branix. And it's a German REIT-like entity. It's not officially structured as REIT, but it's a REIT-like entity that owns a lot of office, but also industrial real estate. And they closed a major deal just before the surge in interest rates, unlucky timing. And since then, they've been trying to sell assets to pay off debt. They failed to sell enough of them. And so recently, they had to come to a restructuring agreement with their lenders. And they came up with this really complex structure with different tranches of debt, very high interest rates.

39:15Some of the debt is not being, the interest is not being paid. It's simply being accumulated in kind. So the loan balance keeps on growing over time. And once again, we get back to management, you know, real estate is a people's business in the end. And if you have a very good, skillful manager that's shareholder friendly, probably it will not make the mistake of being too greedy with leverage. And it will think long term over a full cycle and make sure that they can survive a major black swan because those black swans will occur. But then again, if you invest in the REIT or the syndication that's managed by someone who's greedy, just looking after their short-term financial interest in the form of fees, then these things will happen.

39:53So this one's more speculative. I actually don't know anything about this category, so I want to ask you. But it seems like there's a narrative out there that these data centers have been really ripping and providing a huge disproportionate share of the positive return that we've seen in the last year, if we zoom in on that area, in the REIT sector. Can you tell us what's going on in the data center sector? Yeah, I mean, data center rates are doing quite well. They've benefited from this AI trade. And the AI revolution is unquestionably leading to significant demand for this infrastructure and leading to growing rental rates, occupancy rates.

40:28But myself, I'm actually not very interested in these specific rates. And to be fair, I'm not even super well informed about them. I don't follow them that closely. And that's simply because I don't really view them as traditional real estate investments. In my mind, the terminal value of these buildings remain very uncertain. You know, let me ask you this. Do you think that today's data centers will be similar as the data centers 10 years or 20 years from now? Or do you think that perhaps investing trillions of capital in this space might lead to some new major innovations and that could then potentially not just maybe not render the property completely obsolete, but perhaps its value could be cut significantly if suddenly it's simply not nearly as efficient as the data center of the future?

41:16And because I'm not a technology expert, I'm not able to answer the question of what the probability is of this happening. But I just feel like if you're investing so much capital in this space, likely we're going to keep seeing some innovations over time. And perhaps, you know, what we're building today and what's valuable today might not be in the future. I think that if I were to talk to an AI about REITs right now and attempt to have this conversation, I would have very few of the opinions and insights that you're generating. I'd have more data and much of it would be wrong that I'd have to recorrect in there.

41:52And that's being powered by an average AI data center of 100 megawatts. Yussi's brain right here and all of the intellectual horsepower he brought to this conversation is being powered by 20 watts. That's a ratio of 5 million to 1, right? So the data center is consuming 5 million more watts than your brain is. There's no like physical reason why the data center has to be that large in the end, in a terminal sense. Now, whether that's 20 years from now and these things provide an excellent return for their investors because the cash flows grow exponentially over those 20 years. And then, you know, hundreds of years in the future, the AI chips that we begin to use are moved into a vehicle that can be contained, you know, in the same volume or mass as the human brain or smaller.

42:34But, you know, there's no reason why these have to be there for that long versus, you know, human habitation probably needs some minimum size. That's more there. So we can get to the really big theory that that's where you can arrive there. But I like your answer of these are really uncertain where they're going to end up. And how's that going to go? And I think it's a really good bet that you're going to see more megawatt capacity being built in the next few years. I think it's a really open-ended question whether that's going to be the case in 10, 20, or 30 years. And obviously, you have the REITs, and not just the REITs, but the major private equity players like Blackstone and Brookfield and Blue Wall.

43:09They're all making a very compelling argument that this is an amazing opportunity for investors because you can develop a major data center and have an A credit tenant. I mean, some of the best credit companies in the world lease that space for 20 years with a strong lease. They take care of all the expenses and you earn a pretty good return, like solid cap rate with rent escalators. But what's the value of that property in 20 years? That's the thing. And if you think that the terminal value is good, that's an amazing investment. But if you feel that's a bit of a coin flip, you're not a technology expert like me, then that's the reason that has kept me away from these investments so far.

43:47Kind of like that inverse of that office investment, right? Because, you know, office is, you know, either going to zero or it's going to a lot and you can buy really cheap. This one's either going to a lot or going to zero eventually and you can buy it fairly expensive. But it has cash flows that you can't underwrite in the next few years. That's the difference there. I think that'll be interesting. And I find that a very challenging thesis as well, but it's really fascinating for you to be able to go so quickly into a lot of these expressions. So those are those are the three big ones I wanted to cover here, which were office, multifamily and then the data center at a high level.

44:17Where are you looking at? What are some of the places that you think are the most prime for opportunity right now in the REIT sector? I like service-oriented retail a lot right now. And by that, I mean this like a strip center that's anchored by a grocery store and some tenants that focus on essential services. Those are quite attractive in my opinion because retail is undersupplied today. It was out of favor for so long that very little got built. And now occupancy rates are growing, rents are growing, same property and high growth of most of these retail rates is 3 % to 5 % annually. And yet, despite that, these REITs often don't trade at valuations that are that different from multifamily REITs, as an example, which are facing stagnating rents or even slightly declining rents.

45:00And so I think that's an attractive opportunity. Unfortunately, less so than it was one year ago. They've now reasoned already quite a bit in 2026. Our biggest investment in this space called Whitestone REIT got bought out by private equity players. That one worked out really well. But we still own some investments in this space, including Kite Realty Group, Kimco Realty, and some others. So retail is attractive, in my opinion. Alternatively, while we talked about data centers earlier, many investors like to invest in data centers to profit from this AR revolution. I prefer to invest in sell-to-all rates.

45:35I think that they will also benefit from the AR revolution over the long run, as I expect it to lead to an acceleration in data consumption. consumption. You know, more and more of us have apps like ChatGPT on our phones, very data intensive. But on top of that, we're going to have more and more of these autonomous vehicles everywhere. We'll have, you know, a lot of smart city technologies using AI. We'll have at some point, perhaps humanoid robots. And all of that, I think, is very data intensive. And it's going to force the tenants of these towers to reinvest more heavily in the equipment. And I expect this to over time lead to higher rental income for these REITs.

46:16So that's, I think, a narrative that's overlooked today by the REIT market. And I think that makes the sell-tower REITs quite compelling as they trade at historically low valuations. I think that those will be the two ones that come to my mind. You know how the change in seasons hits and suddenly you just want to declutter the garage, clean out the closets, and get everything all organized? That same feeling hits me with my finances every spring. I used to have accounts scattered everywhere, making it hard to stay on track with my money goals. Let Monarch do your financial spring cleaning for you.

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47:23This has been fascinating. So it sounds like the takeaways I've got today are, you agree, REITs in a broad sense have really gone nowhere for a long time. At least 10 years, maybe 20 years. Small, positive, nominal price increase. There's been distributions, of course, but really just been crushed by owning a single family home as a rental, for example, or maybe just buying your family house rather than invest in REITs. You might have done better over the last 10 years, 12 years. Then it's been crushed by the broader market. And if you're going to invest in these REITs, there's a thesis that you need to bring to bear on where you want to find the opportunity.

47:57That's a very complicated, difficult process, and you can be very wrong in each part of it. And if you're going to invest in individual REITs, then you've got to understand how to value the underlying assets. You've got to understand the growth thesis. And then you've got to understand if they check that box that says I self-manage or not, in your opinion, as some of the major factors in making that decision. Is that a good summary of the key takeaways from you today? It is. The only thing that I would add is that I would argue that it's not that different in the end from private real estate. Probably if you looked at all real estate combined, probably all single family homes in the U.S.

48:32in every market, including all the tertiary market, the secondary market, more rural places with declining populations, probably the returns have not been all that great over time. But if you're more selective, if you first you learn about how to invest in real estate, you know how to look for a good deal, you get educated, then obviously you can find some great investment opportunities. It's a bit similar in the REIT sector. There's no magic. I mean, you can buy an ETF that represents everything and your returns might be decent if the REIT market is going through a good time and their market sentiment is strong.

49:06But especially if you go through a long bear market and many black swans are going to do quite poorly. And if you want to earn good returns, probably you need to be a bit more selective. And again, you need to spend some time educating yourself, doing some research. It can be a full-time job if you want to do it right. It's not an easy way of investing, but if you do it right, it can be very rewarding. And, you know, I gave you the example of East Group Properties in the past, but there are countless examples of REITs that have existed for decades. And including in this past time period where most REITs have done poorly, they've kept compounding very strong returns consistently over time.

49:39So the key is to be selective, just like in private real estate. Awesome. Well, Yussi, where can people find out more about you? I have a sub stack called High Yield Landlord. Alternatively, I wrote this book, which you mentioned earlier, called The REIT Advantage recently. Oh, it's blurred, so you cannot see it. But it basically discusses pros and cons of REITs versus private real estate, as well as my investment strategy. But those are the two places where people can find me. I would refer people also, as well, in addition to your book, to the conversation we had previously here on BiggerPocketsMoney.

50:10You can just Google UC Ascoli BiggerPocketsMoney. That's J-U-S-S-I-A-S-K-O-L-A, UC, Escola. And we had a wonderful debate, I thought, about the pros and cons of privately held real estate, single families, duplexes, triplexes, and quadplexes, versus the REITs world. And they're real pros and cons. And they're, I think, arguments for both. I thought that was a really fun one. So go check that one out as well. And go check out the REIT Advantage by UC. And High Yield Landlord, I have at various points been a subscriber to your excellent, like this newsletter and series of analyses that are constantly rolling out on various REITs.

50:46Is that the right way to describe that? That's the right way to describe it. And we share there my portfolio and how I'm investing in REITs and so on. And likewise, you know, I think I started following BiggerPockets. I don't even know how long ago it was, but I was not even working yet. It was a very long time ago. and I've been following all the content on the blog as well as on YouTube. So enjoy it a lot. And, you know, while I'm bullish on REITs and I like REITs a lot and in my mind, it's a better way of investing in real estate. I also invest in private real estate. I think there's a place for both, as we've discussed in this earlier interview.

51:22Oh, you have a private real estate now? Well, the place I'm right now as an example is private real estate and I own this one. It's so little these days it's become my office, but initially it was my residence. The house hack or business hack, you know, the business hack is a less talked about one because you're a different type of profile. But moving into the office building that you then rent out to other people or using your converted house, whatever it is, those are the same concept. And I think it's really hard to beat a I'm going to move into a property and then also turn portions of it into income or other productive use.

51:53That's just a killer app that beats buying a duplex out of state or, you know, the next market or read or a syndication, I think, in many cases for many people. No one is ever going to be a better tenant than yourself to your own property. And then no one's ever going to be a better landlord as the renter from the property. When you want to move out and move into the bigger office down the block, you think your landlord will let you out of the lease? Yep. Awesome. Well, UC, this is great. Let's catch up again in six months or a year and see how things are going. And good luck with the REIT portfolio this next year.

52:21Thank you very much again for having me. It was a pleasure. Talk soon. Bye-bye. All right. That was UC Escola. Scott, what'd you think? Great question. I thought it was pretty interesting discussion. I think Yussi is really, really knowledgeable about all this stuff. I think it's been a really tough market. So he's clearly spent a lot of time studying this. And I thought it was really fun to talk with someone who is, I think, studied the REIT landscape as intensely, maybe even more intensely than I have studied the small mom and pop or retail landlord that has 10 or fewer properties. So I mean, the amount of hours I spent talking with people in that space probably comes reasonably close to rivaling what he's put into the REIT sector.

53:01And it's amazing how many parallels exist when you really dive deep across those two sectors in terms of what seems to work for the small mom and pop and what seems to work at scale for the REITs. I think the most fascinating thing is self-management or close proximity to the properties, maybe not necessarily self-managing, but I think that's going to be a major theme in real estate returns over a career is, are you close to the property and are you involved in the decision-making on any high stakes or maybe even the day-to-day operations of managing a portfolio. And I bet that has an enormous difference maker in the long-term returns at every level of real estate investing across the entire spectrum.

53:34So that's my biggest takeaway from today's call. As a reminder, over at biggerpocketsmoney.com, we have a whole host of developing resources. We've got like, I think, 20 artifacts now in our resource library at biggerpocketsmoney.com slash resources. I've published four calculators. Those can be found at biggerpocketsmoney.com and you can go to the dropdown for resources and You'll see the, I guess, five calculators that we've released at this point across budget benchmarking, Monte Carlo, pay down the mortgage or invest in real estate calculator, income tax projection tool, and a healthcare cost estimator, and many more to come.

54:07So I'm having a lot of fun building those, and go check them out, provide me feedback, and we're constantly iterating and shipping new ones. So check that all out at biggerpocketsmoney.com, and email me if you have any questions. It's scott at biggerpocketsmoney.com. All right, that wraps up this episode of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. Today's lease on your time has expired and so I'll see myself out. That was kind of a reach. Reach.